Pathfinder Adventure Path #73: The Worldwound Incursion (Wrath of the Righteous 1 of 6) (PFRPG)

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Pathfinder Adventure Path #73: The Worldwound Incursion (Wrath of the Righteous 1 of 6) (PFRPG)
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Chapter 1: "The Worldwound Incursion"
by Amber E. Scott

For more than a hundred years, the demon-infested Worldwound has warred against humanity, its Abyssal armies clashing with crusaders, barbarians, mercenaries, and heroes along the border of lost Sarkoris. But when one of the magical wardstones that helps hedge the demons into their savage realm is sabotaged, the crusader city of Kenabres is attacked and devastated by the demonic hordes. Can a small band of heroes destined for mythic greatness survive long enough to hold back the forces of chaos and evil until help arrives, or will they become the latest in a long line of victims slaughtered by Deskari, the demon lord of the Locust Host?

This volume of Pathfinder Adventure Path launches the Wrath of the Righteous Adventure Path and includes:

  • “The Worldwound Incursion,” a Pathfinder RPG adventure for 1st-level characters, by Amber E. Scott.
  • A gazetteer of the crusader city of Kenabres on the border of the Worldwound, by Amber E. Scott.
  • The search for an infamous demon hunter in the Pathfinder’s Journal, by Robin D. Laws.
  • A complete outline of the Wrath of the Righteous campaign.
  • Four new monsters by James Jacobs, Jason Nelson, David Schwartz, and Jerome Virnich.

Each monthly full-color softcover Pathfinder Adventure Path volume contains an in-depth adventure scenario, stats for several new monsters, and support articles meant to give Game Masters additional material to expand their campaign. Pathfinder Adventure Path volumes use the Open Game License and work with both the Pathfinder RPG and the world’s oldest fantasy RPG.

ISBN–13: 978-1-60125-553-2

Note: This product is part of the Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscription.

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The Standard for AP Openings

5/5

As the title, this book is everything I love about Pathfinder and the best opener of any AP I’ve played. For context, I have played one other AP from beginning to end, 4 books of another, and the first book of another.

There’s challenge! There’s scale! There’s memorable NPCs! There’s such an energy and drive here that has kept me stoked for more. Yes, I am biased by my love of paladiny lawful goodness, but that’s just a small part of what makes this book work so well for me.

As a final note, anyone who wants to whine about LGBT-inclusion can kiss my transgender lesbian ass. This book rocks.


Pathfinder or politics?

2/5

The adventure is fun, if you can get past the writers doing their best to ram the most hot-topic controversial political issues of the day down your throat at every turn. I've had to dramatically modify the fluff of two major NPCs in order to avoid political conversations I don't care to have with my party.

Stick to writing stories, guys. You're not going to attract new fans like this.


A good start

5/5

Just to get this out of the way, let me start with the following obligatory advice:

Advice on adjusting the difficulty level of this AP:
Before running this AP, I was warned that the power of mythic PCs quickly outpaced the difficulty of the encounters the AP provides. Despite taking a number of precautions to mitigate this (having players use a 10 point-buy, applying advanced templates to every mythic creature, etc), I found this to be true.

In light of our experiences, and those reported on the boards, the consensus seems to be that there are two generally viable ways to deal with these problems:

Option 1: Power-down the PCs.

(a) Don't give the PCs mythic ranks.

(b) [Optional:] Use the Hero Point system introduced in the APG, and give the PCs a number of Hero Points per day equal to the number of mythic ranks they're supposed to have. (This makes players a bit more robust.)

(c) More or less play the AP as is. (Though there are a couple of encounters in book 6 that will probably need to be made a bit easier).

Option 2: Power-up the encounters.

(a) Give the PCs mythic ranks as the AP suggests (possibly with the nerfs suggested in Mythic Solutions).

(b) Use the (vastly) upgraded stat blocks presented in Sc8rpi8n_mjd's modified stat blocks document to upgrade encounters, and then further multiply the HPs given in the stat blocks by something like (creature's mythic rank+3)/3. (For more optimized players you may need to multiply HPs even more.)

Our experience, FWIW: We played books 1-4 more or less as is, and (despite my efforts to boost and combine encounters) found books 3 and 4 to be far too easy to be fun. We then adopted something like option 2 for books 5 and 6, and found that to be much more challenging and enjoyable. But we also found that combat can take forever -- don't be surprised if you find yourself needing to spend more than one session to get through a fight.

This is good start to the AP, with an epic event to kick things off, a number of interesting NPCs to roleplay with, and a decent dungeon crawl to work through.

--Fun of playing this leg of the AP, as written: 4.5/5
--Fun of the story of this leg of the AP: 4.5/5
--Total score: 4.5/5 (rounded up).


A Solid Foundation for the Entire Campaign

5/5

The Worldwound Incursion is an extremely good start to an epic campaign. This module of the Adventure Path builds a solid foundation on which the rest of the campaign rests.

The start of the module effectively not only shows what is at stake in the campaign and what will happen if the PCs fail, it also manages to build solid relationships with many of those who will be the PCs' closest allies as the campaign progresses. The NPCs have clear, strong and differing personalities which together with their background stories make for believable and likeable (or at least entertaining) NPCs.

Furthermore the AP manages to shine a light on not only the physical corruption demonic taint brings to mortals and nature itself, but also shows how the corruption of crusaders, mercenaries and in general fallible mortals slowly destroys the very nature of the crusades and crushes all hope of victory.

Add that the story is brilliant, the combats appropriately challenging and the rewards are very good as well, and the module offers plenty of good roleplaying opportunities, whether one prefers the more serious, the over the top and funny (with a touch of the dramatic) or a mixture of both.

The only negative I can add is that for any moderately competent group the mythic rules being introduced in the end pose quite a challenge for the GM in future modules. Mythic is overpowered, there is no way around it, and in my group even the suggested alternative stat increases make for too strong a party if one wants to play the entire AP exactly as written. As the campaign has progressed I've needed to increase the CR considerably to keep combats challenging (or just at a point where they drain PC resources), but luckily the Paizo forums have an amazing reworking of higher ranking enemies/allies/neutrals. Personally I find that those reworked stats and the stronger enemies being allowed to use mythic while the PCs aren't makes for an appropriate challenge, but it would depend a lot on how experienced the players are.

All in all The Worldwound Incursion is a brilliant start to a very, very good campaign, although later modules do need a bit more mechanical tweaks from the GM's side than the average AP. The help found on Paizo's forums helps a lot in this regard though.


Excellent Start

5/5

My group and I finished this book yesterday after playing nine sessions roughly averaging 3 ½ hours a pop. We play online with 6 players.

Story: The story is great. Starts off with the big bad guys making a powerful statement. This gives the GM a chance to play up that the demons are no joke and over the course of the book, the descriptions emphasize just how rotten they can be. The writers rarely miss a chance to speak to their taste in graffiti, vandalism of statues and desecration of monuments. The story really falls into two parts, the first one isolates the PCs from the larger events but that works great to force them to build as a team, the later part of the story opens up the scene to allow the players to explore the destruction and claim some victories. I liked how that worked out

Role-Play: This was also really well integrated into the story. The book has some NPCs thrust upon the PCs right off the bat. They are all well flushed out and easy to adapt and challenge the PCs to interact and help them find their voices with these brand new characters. Later on there are more interesting NPCs presented to the PCs each of them also well flushed out with clear goals and easy personalities to interpret. Also, the story has a number of decision points that should challenge members of the party to consider their own motivations and cooperate and negotiate upon those ideas.

Combat Encounters: These were mostly good. I had to modify a little bit here and there given the size of my group and emphasis upon them to build powerful characters. My intention being to run this without mythic rules means I will frequently be forced to modify encounters so this did not bother me. If it were a standard 4 person party, I think a good amount of the encounters would be challenging.

Extras: The maps of the underground could have been a bit more interesting. As it is they look pretty generic. The maps of the city however are very compelling visually. Give you a really good sense of the damage that was done. Additionally the introduction to Kenabres allows you to set up some stuff before the events of the AP kick off, so if you feel like you need to invest your players into the city more, there is ample material to do so. The monsters at the back are also good. Mostly they flush out the ranks of the demons giving multiple options across all CRs.

Overall: Great start to the AP. I’ve noticed some complaints of this being too railroady, but I don’t think so. In fact there is a large portion of the second half of the AP which asks the PCs to explore the ruins of Kenabres. A GM could easily add or subtract encounters into this portion as he wants. So the characters have room to develop, the plot sets the stakes really high and invests the PCs into the books to come.


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Liberty's Edge

Grayn wrote:

/sigh

From Websters, second definition:

Quote:
2. an underlying often ideological plan or program

If you cant see Mr. Spicer (as well as other Paizo staff) is outlining a plan for present and future products, I don't know what to do. And this isn't necessarily bad.

Look, I'm not bashing or hating or anything of the sort. I just feel that this particular character seems stretched thin. And that seems to be because the agenda (as detailed in Mr. Spicer's description of Paizo's intentional plan) was put before the story.

The knee-jerk reaction to attack anyone that says anything even remotely critical of the LBGT community (even when in the best of interest) is as just as divisive as actual hate directed at the community.

Given that I know someone in real life who could almost exactly fit the character in question. I don't see how this character stretches credibility, which is my interpretation of what you are trying to say.

Grand Lodge

graywulfe wrote:
Grayn wrote:

/sigh

From Websters, second definition:

Quote:
2. an underlying often ideological plan or program

If you cant see Mr. Spicer (as well as other Paizo staff) is outlining a plan for present and future products, I don't know what to do. And this isn't necessarily bad.

Look, I'm not bashing or hating or anything of the sort. I just feel that this particular character seems stretched thin. And that seems to be because the agenda (as detailed in Mr. Spicer's description of Paizo's intentional plan) was put before the story.

The knee-jerk reaction to attack anyone that says anything even remotely critical of the LBGT community (even when in the best of interest) is as just as divisive as actual hate directed at the community.

Given that I know someone in real life who could almost exactly fit the character in question. I don't see how this character stretches credibility, which is my interpretation of what you are trying to say.

I want to know why it's only "remotely critical" or "in the best of interest" to act like having a canon transgender protagonist in a loving same-sex relationship in a published adventure is a problem or "forced." Further, nobody ever seriously argues that inclusion of characters belonging to the majority is "forced," so those arguments when applied to minority characters are, very likely, animus-based. Erasure hurts real people.

Paizo Employee Developer

DeciusNero wrote:

Hoping this doesn't get lost in all the bru ha ha, but!

As someone who is subscribed, but wishes to play in the AP, would there by many spoilers if I were to peak at the Kenebres article?

Thanks! :3

If I were you, I would talk to your GM and see how much he or she is comfortable with you reading. The article was written with the GM in mind, but there are only a few small spots that might be considered spoilers.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Kittyburger wrote:
I want to know why it's only "remotely critical" or "in the best of interest" to act like having a canon transgender protagonist in a loving same-sex relationship in a published adventure is a problem or "forced." Further, nobody ever seriously argues that inclusion of characters belonging to the majority is "forced," so those arguments when applied to minority characters are, very likely, animus-based. Erasure hurts real people.

To be honest, Kittyburger, in my opinion, in this day and age, a same-sex relationship (or trans relationship) would do little more than raise an eyebrow in most people (and hopefully it will do even less then that in the future).

But, when you take a main character and try to apply every possible minority characteristic within that person for the purpose of attempting to teach a lesson to the reader, I call foul. I would prefer the storytelling drive the character's background, not the plan described by the staff.

Let the story (and its characters) stand on their own. Leave the social commentary for another time.


8 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kittyburger wrote:
I want to know why it's only "remotely critical" or "in the best of interest" to act like having a canon transgender protagonist in a loving same-sex relationship in a published adventure is a problem or "forced."

Because for decades America has comfortably kept LGBT people swept under the rug where their mere existence couldn't offend the most close-minded among us. Now that that is increasingly not the case, the sudden realization that LGBT exist is becoming terrifyingly difficult to ignore. Thus, every effort to be inclusive is instead misinterpreted as some sinister "agenda" to force acceptance upon those who adamanantly refuse to shed their prejudices.

What those increasingly few people don't realize is that it's not about them. Including LGBT people in media is not an effort to brainwash the holdouts ("beat them over the head" or "shove it down their throats") - it's a simple gesture of acceptance. But even that most minor of acknowledgments ("Hi, I know you exist!") is a threat to some.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Adam Daigle wrote:
DeciusNero wrote:

Hoping this doesn't get lost in all the bru ha ha, but!

As someone who is subscribed, but wishes to play in the AP, would there by many spoilers if I were to peak at the Kenebres article?

Thanks! :3

If I were you, I would talk to your GM and see how much he or she is comfortable with you reading. The article was written with the GM in mind, but there are only a few small spots that might be considered spoilers.

Good to know! I'll just have to content myself with a glance at the map layout of the city. :)

Grand Lodge

DeciusNero wrote:
Adam Daigle wrote:
DeciusNero wrote:

Hoping this doesn't get lost in all the bru ha ha, but!

As someone who is subscribed, but wishes to play in the AP, would there by many spoilers if I were to peak at the Kenebres article?

Thanks! :3

If I were you, I would talk to your GM and see how much he or she is comfortable with you reading. The article was written with the GM in mind, but there are only a few small spots that might be considered spoilers.
Good to know! I'll just have to content myself with a glance at the map layout of the city. :)

It's a very nice map. :)

Grand Lodge

Generic Villain wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
I want to know why it's only "remotely critical" or "in the best of interest" to act like having a canon transgender protagonist in a loving same-sex relationship in a published adventure is a problem or "forced."

Because for decades America has comfortably kept LGBT people swept under the rug where their mere existence couldn't offend the most close-minded among us. Now that that is increasingly not the case, the sudden realization that LGBT exist is becoming terrifyingly difficult to ignore. Thus, every effort to be inclusive is instead misinterpreted as some sinister "agenda" to force acceptance upon those who adamanantly refuse to shed their prejudices.

What those increasingly few people realize is that it's not about them. Including LGBT people in media is not an effort to brainwash the holdouts ("beat them over the head" or "shove it down their throats") - it's a simple gesture of acceptance. But even that most minor of acknowledgments ("Hi, I know you exist!") is a threat to some.

I find it mildly hilarious that the post immediately to yours illustrated the point nicely when you probably were writing yours at the same time...


So... how 'bout them demons, eh? Demons? Like that Storm King fella?

Lots of demons in this one. Tough customers.


Cthulhudrew wrote:

So... how 'bout them demons, eh? Demons? Like that Storm King fella?

Lots of demons in this one. Tough customers.

I like demons...when they're squirming on the end of my Holy Avenger.


Kittyburger wrote:
Atrocious wrote:

No, this is the textbook definition of agenda.

dictionary.com wrote:

Agenda

noun formally a plural of , agendum but usually used as a singular with plural , a·gen·das or a·gen·da.
a list, plan, outline, or the like, of things to be done, matters to be acted or voted upon, etc.: The chairman says we have a lengthy agenda this afternoon.

Again, where is the agenda? I think you only find a gay agenda because you are looking for it.

You'd THINK I'd have a copy of the Gay Agenda around here somewhere...

Yep, I can't seem to find mine, either. They said it would come with the fruitbasket...

Shadow Lodge

Kittyburger wrote:
Further, nobody ever seriously argues that inclusion of characters belonging to the majority is "forced," so those arguments when applied to minority characters are, very likely, animus-based. Erasure hurts real people.

Sorry, gotta disagree with you. The WoD, particularly the nWoD has long been criticized for pretty much every monotheistic group it includes being either a.) a secret Catholic whacko group or b.) and extremist (pretty much anti-whatever group they are supposed to be part of) ona mission from G-d that pretty much ignored the entirety of their actual faith in favor of their mission, as the only valid options. And for Paizo material specifically, threads pop up all the time on how forced one group is to fit into their "real world analogue" without coming out and saying "hey this is Egypt/Africa/Scandinavia/France/etc. . .".

Off topic. . .
Someone a little bit back mentioned Willow, from the Buffyverse, which I thought was kind of odd, as her character was pretty much the poster child for "forced gay/lesbian".

The Exchange

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Grayn wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
I want to know why it's only "remotely critical" or "in the best of interest" to act like having a canon transgender protagonist in a loving same-sex relationship in a published adventure is a problem or "forced." Further, nobody ever seriously argues that inclusion of characters belonging to the majority is "forced," so those arguments when applied to minority characters are, very likely, animus-based. Erasure hurts real people.

To be honest, Kittyburger, in my opinion, in this day and age, a same-sex relationship (or trans relationship) would do little more than raise an eyebrow in most people (and hopefully it will do even less then that in the future).

But, when you take a main character and try to apply every possible minority characteristic within that person for the purpose of attempting to teach a lesson to the reader, I call foul. I would prefer the storytelling drive the character's background, not the plan described by the staff.

Let the story (and its characters) stand on their own. Leave the social commentary for another time.

Think about it that way: in a modern, western value system, one of the greatest values of all is to accept others. Irabreth is an important NPC in the campaign, and her wife is, as you said, a highly unusual person, in many ways.

The way Irabreth not only accepts her as what she is, but genuinely doesn't seem to mind at all all the differences of her wife from the norm, presents Irabreth as a VERY accepting person. Thus, from the viewpoint of players living in our modern society, Irabreth is immediate presented as a paragon of good. And that's important to the campaign.

The Paizo stuff wanted a good aligned NPC, and a strong way to show how good she is was to choose just the right romantic interest for her...


Neil Spicer wrote:
Awesomeness

Neil, thanks for being such a rad human being - I really appreciate you :D


Lord Snow wrote:
The Paizo stuff wanted a good aligned NPC, and a strong way to show how good she is was to choose just the right romantic interest for her...

This is logical and I can see how that would work, but I'm not convinced its Paizo's intent.

My criticism has a lot to do with economy of the storytelling (contrary to popular belief).


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tirisfal wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
You'd THINK I'd have a copy of the Gay Agenda around here somewhere...
Yep, I can't seem to find mine, either. They said it would come with the fruitbasket...

.

Aww man, you got a fruitbasket?!

Wait, I'm not LGBT...

.

Aww man, you guys get fruitbaskets?!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lord Snow wrote:


About your concerns with hunting down human cultists while actual demons are on the prowl:

It is a main theme of this adventure that Kenabres fell was because the demon horde had help from within. The PCs should know, by the time they emerge from the underground tunnels, that cultists have been spreading chaos and sabotaging the efforts of crusaders for quite some time. The fact that the crusaders can easily bland in a crowed makes them in some aspects every bit as dangerous as demons.

It was ultimately a minor complaint in an otherwise solid adventure. If I GM'd it however, I would make the cultist threat far more obvious and in the PC's faces. As presented, the cultists seem to have already largely succeeded - the demons are here, Kenebras has fallen, yay for chaos and evil! I would alter the player handout from page 23 to more accurately reflect the danger the cultists still pose. In the handout from page 39, the PCs learn of that danger:

Spoiler:
That someone named Minagho is coming "...to finish the job and turn the wardstones fully to our use."

But by the time they find that tidbit, they've already decided to hunt down the cultists. Again, a small issue.

I was also almost going to complain how the adventure just assumes the PCs dive right in to the hero role without any motivation other than being good guys. But the author beat me to the punch, reminding me that this is one AP where the characters are expected to be precisely that: heroes who desire to save their fellow man from demons just 'cause.

Grand Lodge

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
You'd THINK I'd have a copy of the Gay Agenda around here somewhere...
Yep, I can't seem to find mine, either. They said it would come with the fruitbasket...

.

Aww man, you got a fruitbasket?!

Wait, I'm not LGBT...

.

Aww man, you guys get fruitbaskets?!

Yep, all of us. Got a mango the size of my head...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kittyburger wrote:
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
You'd THINK I'd have a copy of the Gay Agenda around here somewhere...
Yep, I can't seem to find mine, either. They said it would come with the fruitbasket...

.

Aww man, you got a fruitbasket?!

Wait, I'm not LGBT...

.

Aww man, you guys get fruitbaskets?!

Yep, all of us. Got a mango the size of my head...

.

Aww man!! Why did I have to be born SWM?! Everybody else gets all the best stuff!

Please don't kill me:
Personally I'm just fine with being SWM, but I'm glad you guys got this one thing. Parity would be better, obviously.

edit: I'm leaving this topic alone now. I haven't received my physical copy so I haven't done more than skim it.

Project Manager

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Removed post in violation of our messageboard rules. Comparing homosexuality to pedophilia is not appropriate here.


Wow, Jessica, you're fast; you got that before I could even flag it D:

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tirisfal wrote:
Wow, Jessica, you're fast; you got that before I could even flag it D:

And before I fired off my "Gorbacz, you dirty little minx, this is going to get you tempbanned" reply.


Hadesblade wrote:
Mead wrote:
But the bigger issue in hitting every single one of your customers over the head with the LGBT hammer is that you alienate others.
That's how I took it and Jacobs saying I'm gonna throw it in your face until comply with inclusion. Sorry I support traditional marriage and Christian values you can throw it at me all you want I don't have to agree with or support it. I made the choice last night of take my money elsewhere after the monitors decided to delete my posts against the LBGT agenda. I know I'm only one customer that even though I've spent humdreds of dollars it's a drop in the bucket for them. But I'm not going to have something forced on me. What happens behind closed doors needs to stay there.

I know! Pretty soon Paizo will start selling those demon possessed Role Playing games which contain all that Satanic magic which makes teens kill themselves!

Sorry had a 80's / early 90's flashback.

Project Manager

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I was summoned.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jessica Price wrote:
I was summoned.

Gulp. I will be hiding in the corner playing with the sparkly thing I am holding.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

After sneaking a peek and finding out how awesome the half-orc on the cover is, I'm almost regretting my decision to end my AP subscription after Reign of Winter ended :|


spectrevk wrote:
After sneaking a peek and finding out how awesome the half-orc on the cover is, I'm almost regretting my decision to end my AP subscription after Reign of Winter ended :|

There's still time!


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Well of course Paizo is pushing an agenda, that pernicious idea that individual people in all their diversity have equal dignity and are worth including. I find that an agenda worth supporting and have no sympathy for the contrary idea. I think it unfortunate that people find this controversial or are so enamored of their own privilege of being represented in the mainstream that they can't share it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Grayn wrote:
To be honest, Kittyburger, in my opinion, in this day and age, a same-sex relationship (or trans relationship) would do little more than raise an eyebrow in most people (and hopefully it will do even less then that in the future).

Bolded emphasis mine. Yeah, sadly I wish that were the case, but realistically that should probably say some. Maybe in the boroughs of larger cities this may be the case, but it's still a pretty big deal throughout most of North America. I wouldn't translate the views of your local area to the larger population just yet. And just because it is gaining acceptance doesn't mean we can just start ignoring or stop being conscientious of the inclusion of LGBT. It's still necessary as this very thread has adamantly proven.

Grayn wrote:
My criticism has a lot to do with economy of the storytelling (contrary to popular belief).

Does it? I'd say the economy of storytelling in the module is pretty solid since Amber has done a wonderful job of fitting a massive range of story potential into only 60 pages (roughly). The background detail of a few NPCs has nothing to do with story economy. At all.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Troy gets it.


The Block Knight wrote:
Does it? I'd say the economy of storytelling in the module is pretty solid since Amber has done a wonderful job of fitting a massive range of story potential into only 60 pages (roughly). The background detail of a few NPCs has nothing to do with story economy. At all.

I'm not speaking about the module, but the character. In this case, a little goes a long ways. As we have seen on nearly every page of this thread, people have strong opinions about the subject.

Let me ask you, if they toned it down a little bit...just a little, as in make them a lesbian or gay couple (instead of "all of the above" in one character)...do you think the reactions would be different?

People are in general accepting, my experience is that's especially true in the gaming community. But, many react strongly when something is pushed at them. I believe a simple easing off the "in-your-face" approach would have still met the intent of reaching disenfranchised individuals and help build communal bridges with those that may not have direct contact with the LGBT community, as well as reduce the focus on a single character's background.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Grayn wrote:


People are in general accepting, my experience is that's especially true in the gaming community. But, many react strongly when something is pushed at them. I believe a simple easing off the "in-your-face" approach would have still met the intent of reaching disenfranchised individuals and help build communal bridges with those that may not have direct contact with the LGBT community, as well as reduce the focus on a single character's background.

How, precisely, does one manage to not be "in-your-face?" What would you have done differently? You suggest making the character in question a lesbian as opposed to a transgendered individual. Fine, that appeals to the L and G of LBGT. But clearly Paizo is also making an effort to reach out to transgendered people. Are these somehow less safe than gay people? More icky? More in-your-face? Because that would be a problem with your perception, not on the presentation of the character.


Grayn wrote:
I'm not speaking about the module, but the character. In this case, a little goes a long ways. As we have seen on nearly every page of this thread, people have strong opinions about the subject.

Fair enough. Apologies for the misunderstanding there.

Grayn wrote:
Let me ask you, if they toned it down a little bit...just a little, as in make them a lesbian or gay couple (instead of "all of the above" in one character)...do you think the reactions would be different?

Well, I'm not going to estimate what the reactions of others would be to such a hypothetical because I try to avoid such assumptions. For me, it wouldn't make a difference whether a character is gay, straight, trans, or a talking Mormon raccoon who identified as a Hispanic transgender lesbian.

But let me turn the question around - how does excluding transgender "tone it down"? Are there degrees of gay now? Sadly, I suppose there are degrees in the view of others since transgendered people always seem to get the short end of the stick in our society, even among the LGBT community.

Grayn wrote:
People are in general accepting, my experience is that's especially true in the gaming community. But, many react strongly when something is pushed at them. I believe a simple easing off the "in-your-face" approach would have still met the intent of reaching disenfranchised individuals and help build communal bridges with those that may not have direct contact with the LGBT community, as well as reduce the focus on a single character's background.

See, this is where you lose me. I believe that 98% of all issues in life are very much just various shades of grey. But there's about 2% of all things that are pretty much black-and-white. The earth is round. Water is wet. And people are either accepting or not. Period. There aren't varying degrees of acceptance. Those who claim to be accepting, except for people who don't fit into their band of acceptance, aren't actually accepting, now are they? To be accepting on an issue, you sort of have to go all in. I'll say it again, people are people. There shouldn't be degrees.


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Boy I'd sure like to hear some cool things about demons. I wonder if there are any demons in this ap.


Yes, there are demons and they are awesome. A great many are so awesome that you don't actually fight them in this module since the players would be horribly murdered, but that really just ups the player anticipation for fighting them in the next five modules.

There's a bunch of cultists, as others have said. I'm fine with that, since this does start as a 1st-level module and the rule of thumb with adventure design does tend to be cultists before demons in most cases. But that doesn't mean demons don't have a major impact on the module story as they most certainly do.

It's really a tough module to talk about without spoiling a bunch of awesome stuff which isn't great to do in the product thread.


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Generic Villain wrote:


How, precisely, does one manage to not be "in-your-face?" What would you have done differently? You suggest making the character in question a lesbian as opposed to a transgendered individual. Fine, that appeals to the L and G of LBGT. But clearly Paizo is also making an effort to reach out to transgendered people. Are these somehow less safe than gay people? More icky? More in-your-face? Because that would be a problem with your perception, not on the presentation of the character.

For starters, the community can ease off the aggression. Not everyone that raises a question or has a difference of opinion is a bigot, homophobe or enemy; in some cases they may be trying to help.

And no, transgender people are not "icky". I don't know if you've read the module, but I'll leave it at the character covers a lot of ground...enough for two characters. That is the issue.


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How are characters, or their players, even going to learn that the character is trans? Unless they start prying, it's going to look like just a lesbian couple. There are no instructions to "force" this down any players' throats.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
havoc xiii wrote:
Boy I'd sure like to hear some cool things about demons. I wonder if there are any demons in this ap.

Demons you say?

Spoiler:
There are a few so far: 5 dretches, 3 abrikandilus (rat demons), 2 quasits, 2 vermleks, 1 schir, 6 babaus, and 5 librarians. The librarians aren't technically demons, but I never trust their kind. They're up to something.

Also demonic flies, a fiendish minotaurs, and about 30 tieflings. The coolest demons are the ones the PCs don't fight though: that would be the Storm King (balor lord) and a half-succubus witch who, through the power of math, I have determined to be of CR 26 or 27 (depending on whether she has gear equal to an NPC or PC). She's the reason the PCs have to fight 6 babaus. At once. When they're like 5th level.

There's also a demon lord in the bestiary. Challenge rating 27. But...

>.>

I don't know how many times he can use mythic surge when on his home plane. Or what his mythic rank is. It maddens me.


Grayn wrote:
Generic Villain wrote:


How, precisely, does one manage to not be "in-your-face?" What would you have done differently? You suggest making the character in question a lesbian as opposed to a transgendered individual. Fine, that appeals to the L and G of LBGT. But clearly Paizo is also making an effort to reach out to transgendered people. Are these somehow less safe than gay people? More icky? More in-your-face? Because that would be a problem with your perception, not on the presentation of the character.

For starters, the community can ease off the aggression. Not everyone that raises a question or has a difference of opinion is a bigot, homophobe or enemy; in some cases they may be trying to help.

And no, transgender people are not "icky". I don't know if you've read the module, but I'll leave it at the character covers a lot of ground...enough for two characters. That is the issue.

I think that Kittyburger has already made the greatest point against your "all of the above is unrealistic and is trying to shove an agenda down our throats!":

Kittyburger wrote:
Hi. I'm transgender, AND lesbian, AND married. We exist.


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havoc xiii wrote:
Boy I'd sure like to hear some cool things about demons. I wonder if there are any demons in this ap.
Aravashnial wrote:
I don't see any...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Grayn wrote:
I don't know if you've read the module, but I'll leave it at the character covers a lot of ground...enough for two characters. That is the issue.

I have indeed read it, and you know what? I think you can handle that character. Just keep a stiff upper lip and you'll be fine.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Heh, I just remembered something funny. All the "controversy" here is about a male-to-female transgendered character who has physically transformed into a biological female via magic, and is having a romantic relationship with a woman. Yet if we all remember back to the days of Reign of Winter...

Maiden, Mother, Crone spoiler:

In Maiden, Mother, Crone, there's a male-to-female transgendered character who has physically transformed into a biological female via magic, and is having a romantic relationship with a woman. The characters in question are Marislova (formerly Maroslan) and her lover Jadrenka.

Because if we can accept a reality where there's dragons, walking corpses, immortal wizards, fairies, genies, and floating castles, than accepting someone changing their gender through magic can't possibly be an issue. And that same person carrying on a relationship with someone who happens to share their new gender? That sounds downright boring to me by comparison.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Grayn wrote:
The Block Knight wrote:
Does it? I'd say the economy of storytelling in the module is pretty solid since Amber has done a wonderful job of fitting a massive range of story potential into only 60 pages (roughly). The background detail of a few NPCs has nothing to do with story economy. At all.

I'm not speaking about the module, but the character. In this case, a little goes a long ways. As we have seen on nearly every page of this thread, people have strong opinions about the subject.

Let me ask you, if they toned it down a little bit...just a little, as in make them a lesbian or gay couple (instead of "all of the above" in one character)...do you think the reactions would be different?

People are in general accepting, my experience is that's especially true in the gaming community. But, many react strongly when something is pushed at them. I believe a simple easing off the "in-your-face" approach would have still met the intent of reaching disenfranchised individuals and help build communal bridges with those that may not have direct contact with the LGBT community, as well as reduce the focus on a single character's background.

So you want of the two characters who I can identify personally with in all of the setting so far to have that stripped from her so she's just a lesbian. That's fantastic. And again, Anevia is NOT ever single LGBT letter as you keep saying. She's not G, she's not B. She's L&T. Which at least accounts for 50% of trans* women I know.

Paizo Employee Developer

havoc xiii wrote:
Boy I'd sure like to hear some cool things about demons. I wonder if there are any demons in this ap.

Oh yeah, this is demon central. Each volume features stats for a demon lord and a brand new demon in the bestiary.

This AP is super demon overload!

Edit: I see folks have already covered that. Always late it seems.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Anyone know who did the half-page illustrations in the adventure-section?

Paizo Employee Developer

Kajehase wrote:
Anyone know who did the half-page illustrations in the adventure-section?

I don't know for sure, and I'm at home so I can't double check. I'll try to figure it out if someone doesn't chime in beforehand.

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