Pathfinder Adventure Path #73: The Worldwound Incursion (Wrath of the Righteous 1 of 6) (PFRPG)

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Pathfinder Adventure Path #73: The Worldwound Incursion (Wrath of the Righteous 1 of 6) (PFRPG)
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Chapter 1: "The Worldwound Incursion"
by Amber E. Scott

For more than a hundred years, the demon-infested Worldwound has warred against humanity, its Abyssal armies clashing with crusaders, barbarians, mercenaries, and heroes along the border of lost Sarkoris. But when one of the magical wardstones that helps hedge the demons into their savage realm is sabotaged, the crusader city of Kenabres is attacked and devastated by the demonic hordes. Can a small band of heroes destined for mythic greatness survive long enough to hold back the forces of chaos and evil until help arrives, or will they become the latest in a long line of victims slaughtered by Deskari, the demon lord of the Locust Host?

This volume of Pathfinder Adventure Path launches the Wrath of the Righteous Adventure Path and includes:

  • “The Worldwound Incursion,” a Pathfinder RPG adventure for 1st-level characters, by Amber E. Scott.
  • A gazetteer of the crusader city of Kenabres on the border of the Worldwound, by Amber E. Scott.
  • The search for an infamous demon hunter in the Pathfinder’s Journal, by Robin D. Laws.
  • A complete outline of the Wrath of the Righteous campaign.
  • Four new monsters by James Jacobs, Jason Nelson, David Schwartz, and Jerome Virnich.

Each monthly full-color softcover Pathfinder Adventure Path volume contains an in-depth adventure scenario, stats for several new monsters, and support articles meant to give Game Masters additional material to expand their campaign. Pathfinder Adventure Path volumes use the Open Game License and work with both the Pathfinder RPG and the world’s oldest fantasy RPG.

ISBN–13: 978-1-60125-553-2

Note: This product is part of the Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscription.

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The Standard for AP Openings

5/5

As the title, this book is everything I love about Pathfinder and the best opener of any AP I’ve played. For context, I have played one other AP from beginning to end, 4 books of another, and the first book of another.

There’s challenge! There’s scale! There’s memorable NPCs! There’s such an energy and drive here that has kept me stoked for more. Yes, I am biased by my love of paladiny lawful goodness, but that’s just a small part of what makes this book work so well for me.

As a final note, anyone who wants to whine about LGBT-inclusion can kiss my transgender lesbian ass. This book rocks.


Pathfinder or politics?

2/5

The adventure is fun, if you can get past the writers doing their best to ram the most hot-topic controversial political issues of the day down your throat at every turn. I've had to dramatically modify the fluff of two major NPCs in order to avoid political conversations I don't care to have with my party.

Stick to writing stories, guys. You're not going to attract new fans like this.


A good start

5/5

Just to get this out of the way, let me start with the following obligatory advice:

Advice on adjusting the difficulty level of this AP:
Before running this AP, I was warned that the power of mythic PCs quickly outpaced the difficulty of the encounters the AP provides. Despite taking a number of precautions to mitigate this (having players use a 10 point-buy, applying advanced templates to every mythic creature, etc), I found this to be true.

In light of our experiences, and those reported on the boards, the consensus seems to be that there are two generally viable ways to deal with these problems:

Option 1: Power-down the PCs.

(a) Don't give the PCs mythic ranks.

(b) [Optional:] Use the Hero Point system introduced in the APG, and give the PCs a number of Hero Points per day equal to the number of mythic ranks they're supposed to have. (This makes players a bit more robust.)

(c) More or less play the AP as is. (Though there are a couple of encounters in book 6 that will probably need to be made a bit easier).

Option 2: Power-up the encounters.

(a) Give the PCs mythic ranks as the AP suggests (possibly with the nerfs suggested in Mythic Solutions).

(b) Use the (vastly) upgraded stat blocks presented in Sc8rpi8n_mjd's modified stat blocks document to upgrade encounters, and then further multiply the HPs given in the stat blocks by something like (creature's mythic rank+3)/3. (For more optimized players you may need to multiply HPs even more.)

Our experience, FWIW: We played books 1-4 more or less as is, and (despite my efforts to boost and combine encounters) found books 3 and 4 to be far too easy to be fun. We then adopted something like option 2 for books 5 and 6, and found that to be much more challenging and enjoyable. But we also found that combat can take forever -- don't be surprised if you find yourself needing to spend more than one session to get through a fight.

This is good start to the AP, with an epic event to kick things off, a number of interesting NPCs to roleplay with, and a decent dungeon crawl to work through.

--Fun of playing this leg of the AP, as written: 4.5/5
--Fun of the story of this leg of the AP: 4.5/5
--Total score: 4.5/5 (rounded up).


A Solid Foundation for the Entire Campaign

5/5

The Worldwound Incursion is an extremely good start to an epic campaign. This module of the Adventure Path builds a solid foundation on which the rest of the campaign rests.

The start of the module effectively not only shows what is at stake in the campaign and what will happen if the PCs fail, it also manages to build solid relationships with many of those who will be the PCs' closest allies as the campaign progresses. The NPCs have clear, strong and differing personalities which together with their background stories make for believable and likeable (or at least entertaining) NPCs.

Furthermore the AP manages to shine a light on not only the physical corruption demonic taint brings to mortals and nature itself, but also shows how the corruption of crusaders, mercenaries and in general fallible mortals slowly destroys the very nature of the crusades and crushes all hope of victory.

Add that the story is brilliant, the combats appropriately challenging and the rewards are very good as well, and the module offers plenty of good roleplaying opportunities, whether one prefers the more serious, the over the top and funny (with a touch of the dramatic) or a mixture of both.

The only negative I can add is that for any moderately competent group the mythic rules being introduced in the end pose quite a challenge for the GM in future modules. Mythic is overpowered, there is no way around it, and in my group even the suggested alternative stat increases make for too strong a party if one wants to play the entire AP exactly as written. As the campaign has progressed I've needed to increase the CR considerably to keep combats challenging (or just at a point where they drain PC resources), but luckily the Paizo forums have an amazing reworking of higher ranking enemies/allies/neutrals. Personally I find that those reworked stats and the stronger enemies being allowed to use mythic while the PCs aren't makes for an appropriate challenge, but it would depend a lot on how experienced the players are.

All in all The Worldwound Incursion is a brilliant start to a very, very good campaign, although later modules do need a bit more mechanical tweaks from the GM's side than the average AP. The help found on Paizo's forums helps a lot in this regard though.


Excellent Start

5/5

My group and I finished this book yesterday after playing nine sessions roughly averaging 3 ½ hours a pop. We play online with 6 players.

Story: The story is great. Starts off with the big bad guys making a powerful statement. This gives the GM a chance to play up that the demons are no joke and over the course of the book, the descriptions emphasize just how rotten they can be. The writers rarely miss a chance to speak to their taste in graffiti, vandalism of statues and desecration of monuments. The story really falls into two parts, the first one isolates the PCs from the larger events but that works great to force them to build as a team, the later part of the story opens up the scene to allow the players to explore the destruction and claim some victories. I liked how that worked out

Role-Play: This was also really well integrated into the story. The book has some NPCs thrust upon the PCs right off the bat. They are all well flushed out and easy to adapt and challenge the PCs to interact and help them find their voices with these brand new characters. Later on there are more interesting NPCs presented to the PCs each of them also well flushed out with clear goals and easy personalities to interpret. Also, the story has a number of decision points that should challenge members of the party to consider their own motivations and cooperate and negotiate upon those ideas.

Combat Encounters: These were mostly good. I had to modify a little bit here and there given the size of my group and emphasis upon them to build powerful characters. My intention being to run this without mythic rules means I will frequently be forced to modify encounters so this did not bother me. If it were a standard 4 person party, I think a good amount of the encounters would be challenging.

Extras: The maps of the underground could have been a bit more interesting. As it is they look pretty generic. The maps of the city however are very compelling visually. Give you a really good sense of the damage that was done. Additionally the introduction to Kenabres allows you to set up some stuff before the events of the AP kick off, so if you feel like you need to invest your players into the city more, there is ample material to do so. The monsters at the back are also good. Mostly they flush out the ranks of the demons giving multiple options across all CRs.

Overall: Great start to the AP. I’ve noticed some complaints of this being too railroady, but I don’t think so. In fact there is a large portion of the second half of the AP which asks the PCs to explore the ruins of Kenabres. A GM could easily add or subtract encounters into this portion as he wants. So the characters have room to develop, the plot sets the stakes really high and invests the PCs into the books to come.


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Paizo Employee Developer

I have an indulgent question, if y'all may...

Any opinions on the sinseeker? I was in love with that critter and was frightened how the art might turn out, but working with Andrew and his artist we got an illustration I adore (creepy and cute is a hard thing to order).


Adam Daigle wrote:
havoc xiii wrote:
Boy I'd sure like to hear some cool things about demons. I wonder if there are any demons in this ap.

Oh yeah, this is demon central. Each volume features stats for a demon lord and a brand new demon in the bestiary.

This AP is super demon overload!

Edit: I see folks have already covered that. Always late it seems.

*sigh* Hope my GM hurries up and digests this so we can start our campaign. :) My DMC inspired greatsword wielding tiefling wants to slay demons.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Adam Daigle wrote:

I have an indulgent question, if y'all may...

Any opinions on the sinseeker? I was in love with that critter and was frightened how the art might turn out, but working with Andrew and his artist we got an illustration I adore (creepy and cute is a hard thing to order).

He pretty much nailed it then... my gut reaction was that it's so ugly it's actually kinda cute. He's the butterface familiar!

Paizo Employee Developer

4 people marked this as a favorite.
havoc xiii wrote:
Adam Daigle wrote:
havoc xiii wrote:
Boy I'd sure like to hear some cool things about demons. I wonder if there are any demons in this ap.

Oh yeah, this is demon central. Each volume features stats for a demon lord and a brand new demon in the bestiary.

This AP is super demon overload!

Edit: I see folks have already covered that. Always late it seems.

*sigh* Hope my GM hurries up and digests this so we can start our campaign. :) My DMC inspired greatsword wielding tiefling wants to slay demons.

Slay on!

Seriously, if anyone near you playing a character with favored enemy doesn't choose outsider (evil or chaotic) slap them. Seriously, slap them and while they are stunned by your actions, grab their character sheet, erase whatever foolish thing was in the favored enemy space, and write in outsider (chaotic or evil).

Paizo Employee Developer

d@ncingNumfar wrote:
Adam Daigle wrote:

I have an indulgent question, if y'all may...

Any opinions on the sinseeker? I was in love with that critter and was frightened how the art might turn out, but working with Andrew and his artist we got an illustration I adore (creepy and cute is a hard thing to order).

He pretty much nailed it then... my gut reaction was that it's so ugly it's actually kinda cute. He's the butterface familiar!

Nice!


Adam Daigle wrote:

I have an indulgent question, if y'all may...

Any opinions on the sinseeker? I was in love with that critter and was frightened how the art might turn out, but working with Andrew and his artist we got an illustration I adore (creepy and cute is a hard thing to order).

I can't wait to read this!! D:


I already mentioned the mongrelman and tiefling illustrations which were boss, but I also love the Ulkreth demon, especially the illustration of it attacking the city at the start of the Bestiary chapter.

I can't quite tell who drew it, though; I see a B as one of the initials, but there are 4 illustrators with a 'B' last name. Anyone recognize the signature?


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

I think that's Helge Balzer's signature.


The Block Knight wrote:
But there's about 2% of all things that are pretty much black-and-white. The earth is round. Water is wet. And people are either accepting or not. Period. There aren't varying degrees of acceptance. Those who claim to be accepting, except for people who don't fit into their band of acceptance, aren't actually accepting, now are they? To be accepting on an issue, you sort of have to go all in. I'll say it again, people are people. There shouldn't be degrees.

Sorry to intrude on this conversation, and with the hellfire being thrown around here, I step into this without intent to make anyone feel bad.

However, I completely disagree with this point. To state it simply and hopefully without anyone reading malice into the point (though you may if you wish, as I'll stand by it anyway): It is entirely possible to be accepting of an individual, but not accepting of certain choices they make. You can love a person without loving certain lifestyle choices they make. Stated another way yet in the same fashion, you can be accepting of the individual yet find certain behaviors unacceptable.

I would also like to say that I'm only part of the way into Part 3 of this book, but have found it very enjoyable for an adventure and am excited to see where it goes. However, as much as I appreciate this adventure, there are choices that were made that I didn't like, such as

Spoiler:
on page 18: The party is awarded 600 XP for "managing" to secure Chief Sull's friendship and accept the offer of alliance despite the fact there isn't even a roll that needs to be made to secure those things. They are freely given by the mongrel! Most of the other story awards in the AP I agree with, but not this one. Experience should not be awarded for something freely given and that doesn't even possess any hurdle to acquire.


Sub-Creator wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
This is an example of what I call a "Milestone Award." It's not strictly for accomplishing that thing, but for getting the story to a specific point. From a development perspective, it's there to smooth over rough edges and make sure that a RAW running of the adventure won't have PCs fall too far behind where the authors expect them to be.

Chris Kenney wrote:
Sub-Creator wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
That's as good an explanation for it as I've heard. I often give my players XP awards for the completion of tasks and the like (or used to, until the rather rigid XP tables of this edition started to make such things difficult). I'm definitely willing to accept such a concept in APs. My thanks.

Kajehase wrote:
I think that's Helge Balzer's signature.

Ah, yes. I see the stylistic similarities there, too. Thanks for the ID and the link!


Fortunately, we're only halfway through Carrion Crown, so (hopefully) WotR will be complete by the time we're ready to play. I hate diving into an AP until all the books are out, because I invariably make changes later on that need to be foreshadowed early.

In the meantime, I just enjoy digesting each AP module as it comes out and thinking..."Ooooh...I can change that bit around!" :)

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It's almost as if these supporting characters in a mythic AP are extraordinairy individuals.

Liberty's Edge

Paizo also told us that there are Paladins of Asmodeus. Sometimes, ideas of the setting change for the better. :P

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Also if you ever meet a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic and breaking your sense of disbelief.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Also if you've never met a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic an breaking their disbelief.

That's just it. I haven't. I'm sure they exist. But the odds of finding a couple exactly like that are so small I'd have to be mind numbingly lucky to meet them.

And in fiction, when you come across characters like that, with that many specific traits, all wrapped up in a single couple, it feels forced and contrived.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm gearing up to GM this AP once our Rise of the Runelords campaign wraps up in a few weeks, and this volume has me very excited to see what the rest of the path brings. Originally I wasn't planning on running it -- while I found the concept extremely exciting, the high-level play coupled with mythic was turning me off of it (I much prefer running lower-level games).

After reading this though, I don't think I've ever been quite so excited about the direction an adventure path is taking. The opening is great, and I even love those first few encounters against vermin -- I love the contrast of that, after the characters having just witnessed the scene in the city above.

Of special note are the NPCs. The four major NPCs are fully fleshed out with interesting personalities and rich stories, and reading about how Anevia and Irabeth met and fell for each other made me tear up a little bit.

Of course, this leads to the "controversy" that's engulfed this forum about Anevia. I'll put it in spoiler tags so that those who aren't interested in this ongoing conversation can just ignore it.

Spoiler:
I really don't get why a few posters feel that Anevia has "to much" going on with her. She was physically a man who, from a young age, identified as a woman, but also likes folks of that sex as well. I think it's important to keep in mind that this is not unusual. I love that, on the one side, we have the demons, creatures of pure malice and hate, while on the other we have a pair of women who, despite their trials and differences, have a beautiful love that's blossoming.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Darwyn wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Also if you've never met a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic an breaking their disbelief.

That's just it. I haven't. I'm sure they exist. But the odds of finding a couple exactly like that are so small I'd have to be mind numbingly lucky to meet them.

And in fiction, when you come across characters like that, with that many specific traits, all wrapped up in a single couple, it feels forced and contrived.

That's because those traits are seen as extraordinairy. Paizo is trying to paint a world where such things are not extraordinairy.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Darwyn wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Also if you've never met a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic an breaking their disbelief.

That's just it. I haven't. I'm sure they exist. But the odds of finding a couple exactly like that are so small I'd have to be mind numbingly lucky to meet them.

And in fiction, when you come across characters like that, with that many specific traits, all wrapped up in a single couple, it feels forced and contrived.

Dear Darwyn, did you ever meet a Heterosexual Paladin or a Rock Troll? (people on drugs that think they are such creatures/heroes and people on halloween don't count of course)

If you ever did, please give me the exact location. Thank you.


Gancanagh wrote:
Darwyn wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Also if you've never met a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic an breaking their disbelief.

That's just it. I haven't. I'm sure they exist. But the odds of finding a couple exactly like that are so small I'd have to be mind numbingly lucky to meet them.

And in fiction, when you come across characters like that, with that many specific traits, all wrapped up in a single couple, it feels forced and contrived.

Dear Darwyn, did you ever meet a Heterosexual Paladin or a Rock Troll? (people on drugs that think they are such creatures/heroes and people on halloween don't count of course)

If you ever did, please give me the exact location. Thank you.

And, again, somebody is missing the point.

You want a real world analogy? Okay, fair enough. I'm crippled. I have spina bifida. I was basically born with a broken spine, and I'm paralyzed from right below the knee down. I wear leg braces. Is it possible I'll fall in love with a blind half Chinese/half black woman and wind up with a child who is born with Achondroplasia? Absolutely it's possible. But I doubt it will happen.

The Exchange

Darwyn wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
Gancanagh wrote:

How can that blonde "super models" wish for mindless World Peace when even on something so small as an online forum the people can't find peace together about something so small.

I thought this AP was about Demons, not about rights and LGBT's btw...

I did too, and I'm getting a little tired of people who aren't, fussing over two NPCs, with the explicit agenda of trying to back Paizo off of including LGBT characters in their adventures.

Not everyone is fussing over including LGBT characters - some of us are fussing over how these two characters' backgrounds are pretty poorly written, which comes off as forced, even if unintentionally so. They include so many uncommon traits it strains suspension of disbelief.

It's a transgendered woman. AND she's gay. AND her wife is a half-orc paladin. AND the paladin's parents are together out of love, not violence - which, Paizo has told us in Orcs of Golarion, never happens.

Out of hundreds (if not thousands...) of NPCs that appeared in APs (I'm including very minor NPCs in this count - like, those three nameless thugs the PCs take out in encounter area B7, etc.), the ONLY one that has both an unusual sexuality and gender and who loves a halfbreed orc/human is the one in this adventure. Yes, indeed, such characters are exceedingly rare. That is well represented in the numbers here. Also, there ARE gay, transgendered women in our world. The "wife is a half orc paladin" thing really doesn't have to do with the rest. It's not even that odd - half orcs are not in any way inherently evil and so can become paladins just like any humans.

I just have a feeling you and the others who share your opinion would never have had a problem if the NPC was different in a way that didn't have to do with her sexuality - for example, if instead of being a gay transgender, the NPC was a straight male with a REALLY weird class combination and maybe a template or something. Like a alchemist 1/summoner 2 who is an aasimar half-dragon. unusual characters are not unheard of in APs, but this one creates more resistance because her uniqueness is her sexuality.

Silver Crusade

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Darwyn wrote:
Gancanagh wrote:
Darwyn wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Also if you've never met a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic an breaking their disbelief.

That's just it. I haven't. I'm sure they exist. But the odds of finding a couple exactly like that are so small I'd have to be mind numbingly lucky to meet them.

And in fiction, when you come across characters like that, with that many specific traits, all wrapped up in a single couple, it feels forced and contrived.

Dear Darwyn, did you ever meet a Heterosexual Paladin or a Rock Troll? (people on drugs that think they are such creatures/heroes and people on halloween don't count of course)

If you ever did, please give me the exact location. Thank you.

And, again, somebody is missing the point.

You want a real world analogy? Okay, fair enough. I'm crippled. I have spina bifida. I was basically born with a broken spine, and I'm paralyzed from right below the knee down. I wear leg braces. Is it possible I'll fall in love with a blind half Chinese/half black woman and wind up with a child who is born with Achondroplasia? Absolutely it's possible. But I doubt it will happen.

Yeah, what next, black president of the U.S. who was born on Hawaii to parents of Kenyan origin and his second name is Hussein? Preposterous idea...


Lord Snow wrote:
Darwyn wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
Gancanagh wrote:

How can that blonde "super models" wish for mindless World Peace when even on something so small as an online forum the people can't find peace together about something so small.

I thought this AP was about Demons, not about rights and LGBT's btw...

I did too, and I'm getting a little tired of people who aren't, fussing over two NPCs, with the explicit agenda of trying to back Paizo off of including LGBT characters in their adventures.

Not everyone is fussing over including LGBT characters - some of us are fussing over how these two characters' backgrounds are pretty poorly written, which comes off as forced, even if unintentionally so. They include so many uncommon traits it strains suspension of disbelief.

It's a transgendered woman. AND she's gay. AND her wife is a half-orc paladin. AND the paladin's parents are together out of love, not violence - which, Paizo has told us in Orcs of Golarion, never happens.

Out of hundreds (if not thousands...) of NPCs that appeared in APs (I'm including very minor NPCs in this count - like, those three nameless thugs the PCs take out in encounter area B7, etc.), the ONLY one that has both an unusual sexuality and gender and who loves a halfbreed orc/human is the one in this adventure. Yes, indeed, such characters are exceedingly rare. That is well represented in the numbers here. Also, there ARE gay, transgendered women in our world. The "wife is a half orc paladin" thing really doesn't have to do with the rest. It's not even that odd - half orcs are not in any way inherently evil and so can become paladins just like any humans.

I just have a feeling you and the others who share your opinion would never have had a problem if the NPC was different in a way that didn't have to do with her sexuality - for example, if instead of being a gay transgender, the NPC was a straight male with a REALLY weird class combination and maybe a template or something. Like a...

Actually, no. I'd have a problem with a half dragon aasimar, because, again, that's such a contrived, rare combination it feels just as forced.

Shadow Lodge

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Also if you ever meet a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic and breaking your sense of disbelief.

Its not that, it's than & all of the other stuff, too that makes her a very Mary Sueish character, that's just too much. Said real world lesbian wife would also be a special forces military chaplain from a perfect family, that was also able to completely overcome all of her races penalties and weaknesses (with the exception of the actual non-existant one in Golarion, Half-Orcs are NOT socially outcast except in her case), and honestly I can't think of a modern real world equivalent without being a bit insensitive towards someone. Who is also married during a campaign to a fairly prestigious military ranger type.


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Darwyn wrote:
Gancanagh wrote:
Darwyn wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Also if you've never met a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic an breaking their disbelief.

That's just it. I haven't. I'm sure they exist. But the odds of finding a couple exactly like that are so small I'd have to be mind numbingly lucky to meet them.

And in fiction, when you come across characters like that, with that many specific traits, all wrapped up in a single couple, it feels forced and contrived.

Dear Darwyn, did you ever meet a Heterosexual Paladin or a Rock Troll? (people on drugs that think they are such creatures/heroes and people on halloween don't count of course)

If you ever did, please give me the exact location. Thank you.

And, again, somebody is missing the point.

You want a real world analogy? Okay, fair enough. I'm crippled. I have spina bifida. I was basically born with a broken spine, and I'm paralyzed from right below the knee down. I wear leg braces. Is it possible I'll fall in love with a blind half Chinese/half black woman and wind up with a child who is born with Achondroplasia? Absolutely it's possible. But I doubt it will happen.

Its a fantasy story/world/adventure. You fight HUGE dragons with scars they got from fighting with demon Lords with impossible to pronounce names, you fight Titan Lords, Gods, Robots with LaZors, (just to keep that talking bag happy and satisfied ;-) ) you fight armies of lesbian Amazons, vermin the size of cars and houses and all kinds of strange creatures and persons.

What is so strange about this transgender character in a fantasy setting and her (for many people maybe, not for me) strange/bizar story and lifemate?

In reallife I know about a girl (now a He) who's an extreme Christian person, she married a lesbian girl (when she was still a girl) and they got a baby together (being born from her egg) then she desided she didn't want to be a girl anymore and she became a guy, now she/he's actually dating other guys because she/he became bored of girls.

The world is strange my friend, and I love it!


Gorbacz wrote:
Darwyn wrote:
Gancanagh wrote:
Darwyn wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Also if you've never met a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic an breaking their disbelief.

That's just it. I haven't. I'm sure they exist. But the odds of finding a couple exactly like that are so small I'd have to be mind numbingly lucky to meet them.

And in fiction, when you come across characters like that, with that many specific traits, all wrapped up in a single couple, it feels forced and contrived.

Dear Darwyn, did you ever meet a Heterosexual Paladin or a Rock Troll? (people on drugs that think they are such creatures/heroes and people on halloween don't count of course)

If you ever did, please give me the exact location. Thank you.

And, again, somebody is missing the point.

You want a real world analogy? Okay, fair enough. I'm crippled. I have spina bifida. I was basically born with a broken spine, and I'm paralyzed from right below the knee down. I wear leg braces. Is it possible I'll fall in love with a blind half Chinese/half black woman and wind up with a child who is born with Achondroplasia? Absolutely it's possible. But I doubt it will happen.

Yeah, what next, black president of the U.S. who was born on Hawaii to parents of Kenyan origin and his second name is Hussein? Preposterous idea...

Yes, absolutely. Imagine that, an American president who was born in the U.S., which is a legal requirement, and is black because his parents are from Kenya, an African country, where the vast majority of people, are, in fact, black. What an unbelievable combination of events.

Grand Lodge

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Darwyn wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
Darwyn wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
Gancanagh wrote:

How can that blonde "super models" wish for mindless World Peace when even on something so small as an online forum the people can't find peace together about something so small.

I thought this AP was about Demons, not about rights and LGBT's btw...

I did too, and I'm getting a little tired of people who aren't, fussing over two NPCs, with the explicit agenda of trying to back Paizo off of including LGBT characters in their adventures.

Not everyone is fussing over including LGBT characters - some of us are fussing over how these two characters' backgrounds are pretty poorly written, which comes off as forced, even if unintentionally so. They include so many uncommon traits it strains suspension of disbelief.

It's a transgendered woman. AND she's gay. AND her wife is a half-orc paladin. AND the paladin's parents are together out of love, not violence - which, Paizo has told us in Orcs of Golarion, never happens.

Out of hundreds (if not thousands...) of NPCs that appeared in APs (I'm including very minor NPCs in this count - like, those three nameless thugs the PCs take out in encounter area B7, etc.), the ONLY one that has both an unusual sexuality and gender and who loves a halfbreed orc/human is the one in this adventure. Yes, indeed, such characters are exceedingly rare. That is well represented in the numbers here. Also, there ARE gay, transgendered women in our world. The "wife is a half orc paladin" thing really doesn't have to do with the rest. It's not even that odd - half orcs are not in any way inherently evil and so can become paladins just like any humans.

I just have a feeling you and the others who share your opinion would never have had a problem if the NPC was different in a way that didn't have to do with her sexuality - for example, if instead of being a gay transgender, the NPC was a straight male with a REALLY weird class combination and maybe a template

...

Except a transgender lesbian is not a "forced combination," and I'm really bloody tired of people thinking that we are. The only reason it seems "forced" is because people assume INCORRECTLY that being transgender means you're "gayer than gay." NO. Sexual orientation and gender identity are DIFFERENT THINGS ENTIRELY. In fact, it's MORE likely, not less, that a trans person will be attracted to a member of their identified gender than not (per Dr. Walter Bockting when he was at the University of Minnesota, 2/3 of both transgender women and men are gay or bisexual - about 37% of transgender women are lesbians and

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Darwyn wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Darwyn wrote:
Gancanagh wrote:
Darwyn wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Also if you've never met a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic an breaking their disbelief.

That's just it. I haven't. I'm sure they exist. But the odds of finding a couple exactly like that are so small I'd have to be mind numbingly lucky to meet them.

And in fiction, when you come across characters like that, with that many specific traits, all wrapped up in a single couple, it feels forced and contrived.

Dear Darwyn, did you ever meet a Heterosexual Paladin or a Rock Troll? (people on drugs that think they are such creatures/heroes and people on halloween don't count of course)

If you ever did, please give me the exact location. Thank you.

And, again, somebody is missing the point.

You want a real world analogy? Okay, fair enough. I'm crippled. I have spina bifida. I was basically born with a broken spine, and I'm paralyzed from right below the knee down. I wear leg braces. Is it possible I'll fall in love with a blind half Chinese/half black woman and wind up with a child who is born with Achondroplasia? Absolutely it's possible. But I doubt it will happen.

Yeah, what next, black president of the U.S. who was born on Hawaii to parents of Kenyan origin and his second name is Hussein? Preposterous idea...
Yes, absolutely. Imagine that, an American president who was born in the U.S., which is a legal requirement, and is black because his parents are from Kenya, an African country, where the vast majority of people, are, in fact, black. What an unbelievable combination of events.

Oh, I see I hit a nerve.


"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Repeat No one is saying "take out gay or transsexual characters" or "do not include lesbian or bisexual characters" or any combination.Let it sink in, and probably repeat the whole thing again for good measure.

I really don't know how many times this needs to be said, before it sinks in.

Respectful discussion of opposing opinions seem in short supply on this thread.

Alice Margatroid wrote:
Paizo also told us that there are Paladins of Asmodeus. Sometimes, ideas of the setting change for the better. :P

I agree, especially like the angle of the half-orc being born of a loving relationship, instead of a violent act. I believe that is change that is for the better in the present state of Golarion.

The Rural Juror wrote:
:spoiler:

I respect your opinion and can see the effective contrast of the loving couple in a world of hate. I just have a problem with the intentional insertion of the social commentary (by Paizo's admission, not my assumption) and not the organic development of the backstory. It feels false to me.

Lord Snow wrote:
:snip:

I also really respect your thought out responses. Some of your comments really help expand the debate for me and I appreciate it. I agree more inclusion is not a bad idea, but a character (even a male hetro with the class template you describe) was created with the purpose of pushing an opinion (again Paizo's admission), then there is a pretty good chance I would feel like it was forced.

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