Pathfinder Adventure Path #73: The Worldwound Incursion (Wrath of the Righteous 1 of 6) (PFRPG)

/sigh

From Websters, second definition:

Quote:

2. an underlying often ideological plan or program

If you cant see Mr. Spicer (as well as other Paizo staff) is outlining a plan for present and future products, I don't know what to do. And this isn't necessarily bad.

Look, I'm not bashing or hating or anything of the sort. I just feel that this particular character seems stretched thin. And that seems to be because the agenda (as detailed in Mr. Spicer's description of Paizo's intentional plan) was put before the story.

The knee-jerk reaction to attack anyone that says anything even remotely critical of the LBGT community (even when in the best of interest) is as just as divisive as actual hate directed at the community.

Given that I know someone in real life who could almost exactly fit the character in question. I don't see how this character stretches credibility, which is my interpretation of what you are trying to say.

Grayn wrote:

/sigh

From Websters, second definition:

Quote:

2. an underlying often ideological plan or program

If you cant see Mr. Spicer (as well as other Paizo staff) is outlining a plan for present and future products, I don't know what to do. And this isn't necessarily bad.

Look, I'm not bashing or hating or anything of the sort. I just feel that this particular character seems stretched thin. And that seems to be because the agenda (as detailed in Mr. Spicer's description of Paizo's intentional plan) was put before the story.

The knee-jerk reaction to attack anyone that says anything even remotely critical of the LBGT community (even when in the best of interest) is as just as divisive as actual hate directed at the community.

Given that I know someone in real life who could almost exactly fit the character in question. I don't see how this character stretches credibility, which is my interpretation of what you are trying to say.

I want to know why it's only "remotely critical" or "in the best of interest" to act like having a canon transgender protagonist in a loving same-sex relationship in a published adventure is a problem or "forced." Further, nobody ever seriously argues that inclusion of characters belonging to the majority is "forced," so those arguments when applied to minority characters are, very likely, animus-based. Erasure hurts real people.

Hoping this doesn't get lost in all the bru ha ha, but!

As someone who is subscribed, but wishes to play in the AP, would there by many spoilers if I were to peak at the Kenebres article?

Thanks! :3

If I were you, I would talk to your GM and see how much he or she is comfortable with you reading. The article was written with the GM in mind, but there are only a few small spots that might be considered spoilers.

I want to know why it's only "remotely critical" or "in the best of interest" to act like having a canon transgender protagonist in a loving same-sex relationship in a published adventure is a problem or "forced." Further, nobody ever seriously argues that inclusion of characters belonging to the majority is "forced," so those arguments when applied to minority characters are, very likely, animus-based. Erasure hurts real people.

To be honest, Kittyburger, in my opinion, in this day and age, a same-sex relationship (or trans relationship) would do little more than raise an eyebrow in most people (and hopefully it will do even less then that in the future).

But, when you take a main character and try to apply every possible minority characteristic within that person for the purpose of attempting to teach a lesson to the reader, I call foul. I would prefer the storytelling drive the character's background, not the plan described by the staff.

Let the story (and its characters) stand on their own. Leave the social commentary for another time.

I want to know why it's only "remotely critical" or "in the best of interest" to act like having a canon transgender protagonist in a loving same-sex relationship in a published adventure is a problem or "forced."

Because for decades America has comfortably kept LGBT people swept under the rug where their mere existence couldn't offend the most close-minded among us. Now that that is increasingly not the case, the sudden realization that LGBT exist is becoming terrifyingly difficult to ignore. Thus, every effort to be inclusive is instead misinterpreted as some sinister "agenda" to force acceptance upon those who adamanantly refuse to shed their prejudices.

What those increasingly few people don't realize is that it's not about them. Including LGBT people in media is not an effort to brainwash the holdouts ("beat them over the head" or "shove it down their throats") - it's a simple gesture of acceptance. But even that most minor of acknowledgments ("Hi, I know you exist!") is a threat to some.

DeciusNero wrote:

Hoping this doesn't get lost in all the bru ha ha, but!

As someone who is subscribed, but wishes to play in the AP, would there by many spoilers if I were to peak at the Kenebres article?

Thanks! :3

If I were you, I would talk to your GM and see how much he or she is comfortable with you reading. The article was written with the GM in mind, but there are only a few small spots that might be considered spoilers.

Good to know! I'll just have to content myself with a glance at the map layout of the city. :)

Adam Daigle wrote:

DeciusNero wrote:

Hoping this doesn't get lost in all the bru ha ha, but!

As someone who is subscribed, but wishes to play in the AP, would there by many spoilers if I were to peak at the Kenebres article?

Thanks! :3

If I were you, I would talk to your GM and see how much he or she is comfortable with you reading. The article was written with the GM in mind, but there are only a few small spots that might be considered spoilers.

Good to know! I'll just have to content myself with a glance at the map layout of the city. :)

It's a very nice map. :)

Kittyburger wrote:

I want to know why it's only "remotely critical" or "in the best of interest" to act like having a canon transgender protagonist in a loving same-sex relationship in a published adventure is a problem or "forced."

Because for decades America has comfortably kept LGBT people swept under the rug where their mere existence couldn't offend the most close-minded among us. Now that that is increasingly not the case, the sudden realization that LGBT exist is becoming terrifyingly difficult to ignore. Thus, every effort to be inclusive is instead misinterpreted as some sinister "agenda" to force acceptance upon those who adamanantly refuse to shed their prejudices.

What those increasingly few people realize is that it's not about them. Including LGBT people in media is not an effort to brainwash the holdouts ("beat them over the head" or "shove it down their throats") - it's a simple gesture of acceptance. But even that most minor of acknowledgments ("Hi, I know you exist!") is a threat to some.

I find it mildly hilarious that the post immediately to yours illustrated the point nicely when you probably were writing yours at the same time...

So... how 'bout them demons, eh? Demons? Like that Storm King fella?

Lots of demons in this one. Tough customers.

So... how 'bout them demons, eh? Demons? Like that Storm King fella?

Lots of demons in this one. Tough customers.

I like demons...when they're squirming on the end of my Holy Avenger.

Atrocious wrote:

No, this is the textbook definition of agenda.

dictionary.com wrote:

Agenda

noun formally a plural of , agendum but usually used as a singular with plural , a·gen·das or a·gen·da.
a list, plan, outline, or the like, of things to be done, matters to be acted or voted upon, etc.: The chairman says we have a lengthy agenda this afternoon.

Again, where is the agenda? I think you only find a gay agenda because you are looking for it.

You'd THINK I'd have a copy of the Gay Agenda around here somewhere...

Yep, I can't seem to find mine, either. They said it would come with the fruitbasket...

Further, nobody ever seriously argues that inclusion of characters belonging to the majority is "forced," so those arguments when applied to minority characters are, very likely, animus-based. Erasure hurts real people.

Sorry, gotta disagree with you. The WoD, particularly the nWoD has long been criticized for pretty much every monotheistic group it includes being either a.) a secret Catholic whacko group or b.) and extremist (pretty much anti-whatever group they are supposed to be part of) ona mission from G-d that pretty much ignored the entirety of their actual faith in favor of their mission, as the only valid options. And for Paizo material specifically, threads pop up all the time on how forced one group is to fit into their "real world analogue" without coming out and saying "hey this is Egypt/Africa/Scandinavia/France/etc. . .".

Off topic. . .
Someone a little bit back mentioned Willow, from the Buffyverse, which I thought was kind of odd, as her character was pretty much the poster child for "forced gay/lesbian".

Kittyburger wrote:

I want to know why it's only "remotely critical" or "in the best of interest" to act like having a canon transgender protagonist in a loving same-sex relationship in a published adventure is a problem or "forced." Further, nobody ever seriously argues that inclusion of characters belonging to the majority is "forced," so those arguments when applied to minority characters are, very likely, animus-based. Erasure hurts real people.

To be honest, Kittyburger, in my opinion, in this day and age, a same-sex relationship (or trans relationship) would do little more than raise an eyebrow in most people (and hopefully it will do even less then that in the future).

But, when you take a main character and try to apply every possible minority characteristic within that person for the purpose of attempting to teach a lesson to the reader, I call foul. I would prefer the storytelling drive the character's background, not the plan described by the staff.

Let the story (and its characters) stand on their own. Leave the social commentary for another time.

Think about it that way: in a modern, western value system, one of the greatest values of all is to accept others. Irabreth is an important NPC in the campaign, and her wife is, as you said, a highly unusual person, in many ways.

The Paizo stuff wanted a good aligned NPC, and a strong way to show how good she is was to choose just the right romantic interest for her...

Awesomeness

Neil, thanks for being such a rad human being - I really appreciate you :D

The Paizo stuff wanted a good aligned NPC, and a strong way to show how good she is was to choose just the right romantic interest for her...

This is logical and I can see how that would work, but I'm not convinced its Paizo's intent.

My criticism has a lot to do with economy of the storytelling (contrary to popular belief).

Kittyburger wrote:

You'd THINK I'd have a copy of the Gay Agenda around here somewhere...

Yep, I can't seem to find mine, either. They said it would come with the fruitbasket...

.

Wait, I'm not LGBT...

.

Aww man, you guys get fruitbaskets?!

About your concerns with hunting down human cultists while actual demons are on the prowl:

It is a main theme of this adventure that Kenabres fell was because the demon horde had help from within. The PCs should know, by the time they emerge from the underground tunnels, that cultists have been spreading chaos and sabotaging the efforts of crusaders for quite some time. The fact that the crusaders can easily bland in a crowed makes them in some aspects every bit as dangerous as demons.

It was ultimately a minor complaint in an otherwise solid adventure. If I GM'd it however, I would make the cultist threat far more obvious and in the PC's faces. As presented, the cultists seem to have already largely succeeded - the demons are here, Kenebras has fallen, yay for chaos and evil! I would alter the player handout from page 23 to more accurately reflect the danger the cultists still pose. In the handout from page 39, the PCs learn of that danger:

But by the time they find that tidbit, they've already decided to hunt down the cultists. Again, a small issue.

I was also almost going to complain how the adventure just assumes the PCs dive right in to the hero role without any motivation other than being good guys. But the author beat me to the punch, reminding me that this is one AP where the characters are expected to be precisely that: heroes who desire to save their fellow man from demons just 'cause.

Tirisfal wrote:

Kittyburger wrote:

You'd THINK I'd have a copy of the Gay Agenda around here somewhere...

Yep, I can't seem to find mine, either. They said it would come with the fruitbasket...

.

Aww man, you got a fruitbasket?!

Wait, I'm not LGBT...

.

Aww man, you guys get fruitbaskets?!

Yep, all of us. Got a mango the size of my head...

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

Tirisfal wrote:

Kittyburger wrote:

You'd THINK I'd have a copy of the Gay Agenda around here somewhere...

Yep, I can't seem to find mine, either. They said it would come with the fruitbasket...

.

Aww man, you got a fruitbasket?!

Wait, I'm not LGBT...

.

Aww man, you guys get fruitbaskets?!

Yep, all of us. Got a mango the size of my head...

.

Aww man!! Why did I have to be born SWM?! Everybody else gets all the best stuff!

Removed post in violation of our messageboard rules. Comparing homosexuality to pedophilia is not appropriate here.

Wow, Jessica, you're fast; you got that before I could even flag it D:

Wow, Jessica, you're fast; you got that before I could even flag it D:

And before I fired off my "Gorbacz, you dirty little minx, this is going to get you tempbanned" reply.

Mead wrote:

But the bigger issue in hitting every single one of your customers over the head with the LGBT hammer is that you alienate others.

That's how I took it and Jacobs saying I'm gonna throw it in your face until comply with inclusion. Sorry I support traditional marriage and Christian values you can throw it at me all you want I don't have to agree with or support it. I made the choice last night of take my money elsewhere after the monitors decided to delete my posts against the LBGT agenda. I know I'm only one customer that even though I've spent humdreds of dollars it's a drop in the bucket for them. But I'm not going to have something forced on me. What happens behind closed doors needs to stay there.

I know! Pretty soon Paizo will start selling those demon possessed Role Playing games which contain all that Satanic magic which makes teens kill themselves!

Sorry had a 80's / early 90's flashback.

I was summoned.

I was summoned.

Gulp. I will be hiding in the corner playing with the sparkly thing I am holding.

After sneaking a peek and finding out how awesome the half-orc on the cover is, I'm almost regretting my decision to end my AP subscription after Reign of Winter ended :|

After sneaking a peek and finding out how awesome the half-orc on the cover is, I'm almost regretting my decision to end my AP subscription after Reign of Winter ended :|

There's still time!

Well of course Paizo is pushing an agenda, that pernicious idea that individual people in all their diversity have equal dignity and are worth including. I find that an agenda worth supporting and have no sympathy for the contrary idea. I think it unfortunate that people find this controversial or are so enamored of their own privilege of being represented in the mainstream that they can't share it.

To be honest, Kittyburger, in my opinion, in this day and age, a same-sex relationship (or trans relationship) would do little more than raise an eyebrow in most people (and hopefully it will do even less then that in the future).

Bolded emphasis mine. Yeah, sadly I wish that were the case, but realistically that should probably say some. Maybe in the boroughs of larger cities this may be the case, but it's still a pretty big deal throughout most of North America. I wouldn't translate the views of your local area to the larger population just yet. And just because it is gaining acceptance doesn't mean we can just start ignoring or stop being conscientious of the inclusion of LGBT. It's still necessary as this very thread has adamantly proven.

My criticism has a lot to do with economy of the storytelling (contrary to popular belief).

Does it? I'd say the economy of storytelling in the module is pretty solid since Amber has done a wonderful job of fitting a massive range of story potential into only 60 pages (roughly). The background detail of a few NPCs has nothing to do with story economy. At all.

Troy gets it.

Does it? I'd say the economy of storytelling in the module is pretty solid since Amber has done a wonderful job of fitting a massive range of story potential into only 60 pages (roughly). The background detail of a few NPCs has nothing to do with story economy. At all.

I'm not speaking about the module, but the character. In this case, a little goes a long ways. As we have seen on nearly every page of this thread, people have strong opinions about the subject.

Let me ask you, if they toned it down a little bit...just a little, as in make them a lesbian or gay couple (instead of "all of the above" in one character)...do you think the reactions would be different?

People are in general accepting, my experience is that's especially true in the gaming community. But, many react strongly when something is pushed at them. I believe a simple easing off the "in-your-face" approach would have still met the intent of reaching disenfranchised individuals and help build communal bridges with those that may not have direct contact with the LGBT community, as well as reduce the focus on a single character's background.

People are in general accepting, my experience is that's especially true in the gaming community. But, many react strongly when something is pushed at them. I believe a simple easing off the "in-your-face" approach would have still met the intent of reaching disenfranchised individuals and help build communal bridges with those that may not have direct contact with the LGBT community, as well as reduce the focus on a single character's background.

How, precisely, does one manage to not be "in-your-face?" What would you have done differently? You suggest making the character in question a lesbian as opposed to a transgendered individual. Fine, that appeals to the L and G of LBGT. But clearly Paizo is also making an effort to reach out to transgendered people. Are these somehow less safe than gay people? More icky? More in-your-face? Because that would be a problem with your perception, not on the presentation of the character.

I'm not speaking about the module, but the character. In this case, a little goes a long ways. As we have seen on nearly every page of this thread, people have strong opinions about the subject.

Fair enough. Apologies for the misunderstanding there.

Let me ask you, if they toned it down a little bit...just a little, as in make them a lesbian or gay couple (instead of "all of the above" in one character)...do you think the reactions would be different?

Well, I'm not going to estimate what the reactions of others would be to such a hypothetical because I try to avoid such assumptions. For me, it wouldn't make a difference whether a character is gay, straight, trans, or a talking Mormon raccoon who identified as a Hispanic transgender lesbian.

But let me turn the question around - how does excluding transgender "tone it down"? Are there degrees of gay now? Sadly, I suppose there are degrees in the view of others since transgendered people always seem to get the short end of the stick in our society, even among the LGBT community.

People are in general accepting, my experience is that's especially true in the gaming community. But, many react strongly when something is pushed at them. I believe a simple easing off the "in-your-face" approach would have still met the intent of reaching disenfranchised individuals and help build communal bridges with those that may not have direct contact with the LGBT community, as well as reduce the focus on a single character's background.

See, this is where you lose me. I believe that 98% of all issues in life are very much just various shades of grey. But there's about 2% of all things that are pretty much black-and-white. The earth is round. Water is wet. And people are either accepting or not. Period. There aren't varying degrees of acceptance. Those who claim to be accepting, except for people who don't fit into their band of acceptance, aren't actually accepting, now are they? To be accepting on an issue, you sort of have to go all in. I'll say it again, people are people. There shouldn't be degrees.

Boy I'd sure like to hear some cool things about demons. I wonder if there are any demons in this ap.

Yes, there are demons and they are awesome. A great many are so awesome that you don't actually fight them in this module since the players would be horribly murdered, but that really just ups the player anticipation for fighting them in the next five modules.

There's a bunch of cultists, as others have said. I'm fine with that, since this does start as a 1st-level module and the rule of thumb with adventure design does tend to be cultists before demons in most cases. But that doesn't mean demons don't have a major impact on the module story as they most certainly do.

It's really a tough module to talk about without spoiling a bunch of awesome stuff which isn't great to do in the product thread.

How, precisely, does one manage to not be "in-your-face?" What would you have done differently? You suggest making the character in question a lesbian as opposed to a transgendered individual. Fine, that appeals to the L and G of LBGT. But clearly Paizo is also making an effort to reach out to transgendered people. Are these somehow less safe than gay people? More icky? More in-your-face? Because that would be a problem with your perception, not on the presentation of the character.

For starters, the community can ease off the aggression. Not everyone that raises a question or has a difference of opinion is a bigot, homophobe or enemy; in some cases they may be trying to help.

And no, transgender people are not "icky". I don't know if you've read the module, but I'll leave it at the character covers a lot of ground...enough for two characters. That is the issue.

How are characters, or their players, even going to learn that the character is trans? Unless they start prying, it's going to look like just a lesbian couple. There are no instructions to "force" this down any players' throats.

Boy I'd sure like to hear some cool things about demons. I wonder if there are any demons in this ap.

Demons you say?

There's also a demon lord in the bestiary. Challenge rating 27. But...

>.>

I don't know how many times he can use mythic surge when on his home plane. Or what his mythic rank is. It maddens me.

Generic Villain wrote:

How, precisely, does one manage to not be "in-your-face?" What would you have done differently? You suggest making the character in question a lesbian as opposed to a transgendered individual. Fine, that appeals to the L and G of LBGT. But clearly Paizo is also making an effort to reach out to transgendered people. Are these somehow less safe than gay people? More icky? More in-your-face? Because that would be a problem with your perception, not on the presentation of the character.

For starters, the community can ease off the aggression. Not everyone that raises a question or has a difference of opinion is a bigot, homophobe or enemy; in some cases they may be trying to help.

And no, transgender people are not "icky". I don't know if you've read the module, but I'll leave it at the character covers a lot of ground...enough for two characters. That is the issue.

I think that Kittyburger has already made the greatest point against your "all of the above is unrealistic and is trying to shove an agenda down our throats!":

Hi. I'm transgender, AND lesbian, AND married. We exist.

Boy I'd sure like to hear some cool things about demons. I wonder if there are any demons in this ap.

I don't see any...

I don't know if you've read the module, but I'll leave it at the character covers a lot of ground...enough for two characters. That is the issue.

I have indeed read it, and you know what? I think you can handle that character. Just keep a stiff upper lip and you'll be fine.

Heh, I just remembered something funny. All the "controversy" here is about a male-to-female transgendered character who has physically transformed into a biological female via magic, and is having a romantic relationship with a woman. Yet if we all remember back to the days of Reign of Winter...

Because if we can accept a reality where there's dragons, walking corpses, immortal wizards, fairies, genies, and floating castles, than accepting someone changing their gender through magic can't possibly be an issue. And that same person carrying on a relationship with someone who happens to share their new gender? That sounds downright boring to me by comparison.

The Block Knight wrote:

Does it? I'd say the economy of storytelling in the module is pretty solid since Amber has done a wonderful job of fitting a massive range of story potential into only 60 pages (roughly). The background detail of a few NPCs has nothing to do with story economy. At all.

I'm not speaking about the module, but the character. In this case, a little goes a long ways. As we have seen on nearly every page of this thread, people have strong opinions about the subject.

Let me ask you, if they toned it down a little bit...just a little, as in make them a lesbian or gay couple (instead of "all of the above" in one character)...do you think the reactions would be different?

People are in general accepting, my experience is that's especially true in the gaming community. But, many react strongly when something is pushed at them. I believe a simple easing off the "in-your-face" approach would have still met the intent of reaching disenfranchised individuals and help build communal bridges with those that may not have direct contact with the LGBT community, as well as reduce the focus on a single character's background.

So you want of the two characters who I can identify personally with in all of the setting so far to have that stripped from her so she's just a lesbian. That's fantastic. And again, Anevia is NOT ever single LGBT letter as you keep saying. She's not G, she's not B. She's L&T. Which at least accounts for 50% of trans* women I know.

Boy I'd sure like to hear some cool things about demons. I wonder if there are any demons in this ap.

Oh yeah, this is demon central. Each volume features stats for a demon lord and a brand new demon in the bestiary.

This AP is super demon overload!

Edit: I see folks have already covered that. Always late it seems.

Anyone know who did the half-page illustrations in the adventure-section?

Anyone know who did the half-page illustrations in the adventure-section?

I don't know for sure, and I'm at home so I can't double check. I'll try to figure it out if someone doesn't chime in beforehand.