Pathfinder Adventure Path #73: The Worldwound Incursion (Wrath of the Righteous 1 of 6) (PFRPG)

4.50/5 (based on 22 ratings)
Pathfinder Adventure Path #73: The Worldwound Incursion (Wrath of the Righteous 1 of 6) (PFRPG)
Show Description For:
Non-Mint

Add Print Edition $22.99 $11.49

Add PDF $15.99

Non-Mint Unavailable

Facebook Twitter Email

Chapter 1: "The Worldwound Incursion"
by Amber E. Scott

For more than a hundred years, the demon-infested Worldwound has warred against humanity, its Abyssal armies clashing with crusaders, barbarians, mercenaries, and heroes along the border of lost Sarkoris. But when one of the magical wardstones that helps hedge the demons into their savage realm is sabotaged, the crusader city of Kenabres is attacked and devastated by the demonic hordes. Can a small band of heroes destined for mythic greatness survive long enough to hold back the forces of chaos and evil until help arrives, or will they become the latest in a long line of victims slaughtered by Deskari, the demon lord of the Locust Host?

This volume of Pathfinder Adventure Path launches the Wrath of the Righteous Adventure Path and includes:

  • “The Worldwound Incursion,” a Pathfinder RPG adventure for 1st-level characters, by Amber E. Scott.
  • A gazetteer of the crusader city of Kenabres on the border of the Worldwound, by Amber E. Scott.
  • The search for an infamous demon hunter in the Pathfinder’s Journal, by Robin D. Laws.
  • A complete outline of the Wrath of the Righteous campaign.
  • Four new monsters by James Jacobs, Jason Nelson, David Schwartz, and Jerome Virnich.

Each monthly full-color softcover Pathfinder Adventure Path volume contains an in-depth adventure scenario, stats for several new monsters, and support articles meant to give Game Masters additional material to expand their campaign. Pathfinder Adventure Path volumes use the Open Game License and work with both the Pathfinder RPG and the world’s oldest fantasy RPG.

ISBN–13: 978-1-60125-553-2

Note: This product is part of the Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscription.

Product Availability

Print Edition:

Available now

Ships from our warehouse in 1 to 5 business days.

PDF:

Fulfilled immediately.

Non-Mint:

Unavailable

This product is non-mint. Refunds are not available for non-mint products. The standard version of this product can be found here.

Are there errors or omissions in this product information? Got corrections? Let us know at store@paizo.com.

PZO9073


See Also:

1 to 5 of 22 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>

Average product rating:

4.50/5 (based on 22 ratings)

Sign in to create or edit a product review.

The Standard for AP Openings

5/5

As the title, this book is everything I love about Pathfinder and the best opener of any AP I’ve played. For context, I have played one other AP from beginning to end, 4 books of another, and the first book of another.

There’s challenge! There’s scale! There’s memorable NPCs! There’s such an energy and drive here that has kept me stoked for more. Yes, I am biased by my love of paladiny lawful goodness, but that’s just a small part of what makes this book work so well for me.

As a final note, anyone who wants to whine about LGBT-inclusion can kiss my transgender lesbian ass. This book rocks.


Pathfinder or politics?

2/5

The adventure is fun, if you can get past the writers doing their best to ram the most hot-topic controversial political issues of the day down your throat at every turn. I've had to dramatically modify the fluff of two major NPCs in order to avoid political conversations I don't care to have with my party.

Stick to writing stories, guys. You're not going to attract new fans like this.


A good start

5/5

Just to get this out of the way, let me start with the following obligatory advice:

Advice on adjusting the difficulty level of this AP:
Before running this AP, I was warned that the power of mythic PCs quickly outpaced the difficulty of the encounters the AP provides. Despite taking a number of precautions to mitigate this (having players use a 10 point-buy, applying advanced templates to every mythic creature, etc), I found this to be true.

In light of our experiences, and those reported on the boards, the consensus seems to be that there are two generally viable ways to deal with these problems:

Option 1: Power-down the PCs.

(a) Don't give the PCs mythic ranks.

(b) [Optional:] Use the Hero Point system introduced in the APG, and give the PCs a number of Hero Points per day equal to the number of mythic ranks they're supposed to have. (This makes players a bit more robust.)

(c) More or less play the AP as is. (Though there are a couple of encounters in book 6 that will probably need to be made a bit easier).

Option 2: Power-up the encounters.

(a) Give the PCs mythic ranks as the AP suggests (possibly with the nerfs suggested in Mythic Solutions).

(b) Use the (vastly) upgraded stat blocks presented in Sc8rpi8n_mjd's modified stat blocks document to upgrade encounters, and then further multiply the HPs given in the stat blocks by something like (creature's mythic rank+3)/3. (For more optimized players you may need to multiply HPs even more.)

Our experience, FWIW: We played books 1-4 more or less as is, and (despite my efforts to boost and combine encounters) found books 3 and 4 to be far too easy to be fun. We then adopted something like option 2 for books 5 and 6, and found that to be much more challenging and enjoyable. But we also found that combat can take forever -- don't be surprised if you find yourself needing to spend more than one session to get through a fight.

This is good start to the AP, with an epic event to kick things off, a number of interesting NPCs to roleplay with, and a decent dungeon crawl to work through.

--Fun of playing this leg of the AP, as written: 4.5/5
--Fun of the story of this leg of the AP: 4.5/5
--Total score: 4.5/5 (rounded up).


A Solid Foundation for the Entire Campaign

5/5

The Worldwound Incursion is an extremely good start to an epic campaign. This module of the Adventure Path builds a solid foundation on which the rest of the campaign rests.

The start of the module effectively not only shows what is at stake in the campaign and what will happen if the PCs fail, it also manages to build solid relationships with many of those who will be the PCs' closest allies as the campaign progresses. The NPCs have clear, strong and differing personalities which together with their background stories make for believable and likeable (or at least entertaining) NPCs.

Furthermore the AP manages to shine a light on not only the physical corruption demonic taint brings to mortals and nature itself, but also shows how the corruption of crusaders, mercenaries and in general fallible mortals slowly destroys the very nature of the crusades and crushes all hope of victory.

Add that the story is brilliant, the combats appropriately challenging and the rewards are very good as well, and the module offers plenty of good roleplaying opportunities, whether one prefers the more serious, the over the top and funny (with a touch of the dramatic) or a mixture of both.

The only negative I can add is that for any moderately competent group the mythic rules being introduced in the end pose quite a challenge for the GM in future modules. Mythic is overpowered, there is no way around it, and in my group even the suggested alternative stat increases make for too strong a party if one wants to play the entire AP exactly as written. As the campaign has progressed I've needed to increase the CR considerably to keep combats challenging (or just at a point where they drain PC resources), but luckily the Paizo forums have an amazing reworking of higher ranking enemies/allies/neutrals. Personally I find that those reworked stats and the stronger enemies being allowed to use mythic while the PCs aren't makes for an appropriate challenge, but it would depend a lot on how experienced the players are.

All in all The Worldwound Incursion is a brilliant start to a very, very good campaign, although later modules do need a bit more mechanical tweaks from the GM's side than the average AP. The help found on Paizo's forums helps a lot in this regard though.


Excellent Start

5/5

My group and I finished this book yesterday after playing nine sessions roughly averaging 3 ½ hours a pop. We play online with 6 players.

Story: The story is great. Starts off with the big bad guys making a powerful statement. This gives the GM a chance to play up that the demons are no joke and over the course of the book, the descriptions emphasize just how rotten they can be. The writers rarely miss a chance to speak to their taste in graffiti, vandalism of statues and desecration of monuments. The story really falls into two parts, the first one isolates the PCs from the larger events but that works great to force them to build as a team, the later part of the story opens up the scene to allow the players to explore the destruction and claim some victories. I liked how that worked out

Role-Play: This was also really well integrated into the story. The book has some NPCs thrust upon the PCs right off the bat. They are all well flushed out and easy to adapt and challenge the PCs to interact and help them find their voices with these brand new characters. Later on there are more interesting NPCs presented to the PCs each of them also well flushed out with clear goals and easy personalities to interpret. Also, the story has a number of decision points that should challenge members of the party to consider their own motivations and cooperate and negotiate upon those ideas.

Combat Encounters: These were mostly good. I had to modify a little bit here and there given the size of my group and emphasis upon them to build powerful characters. My intention being to run this without mythic rules means I will frequently be forced to modify encounters so this did not bother me. If it were a standard 4 person party, I think a good amount of the encounters would be challenging.

Extras: The maps of the underground could have been a bit more interesting. As it is they look pretty generic. The maps of the city however are very compelling visually. Give you a really good sense of the damage that was done. Additionally the introduction to Kenabres allows you to set up some stuff before the events of the AP kick off, so if you feel like you need to invest your players into the city more, there is ample material to do so. The monsters at the back are also good. Mostly they flush out the ranks of the demons giving multiple options across all CRs.

Overall: Great start to the AP. I’ve noticed some complaints of this being too railroady, but I don’t think so. In fact there is a large portion of the second half of the AP which asks the PCs to explore the ruins of Kenabres. A GM could easily add or subtract encounters into this portion as he wants. So the characters have room to develop, the plot sets the stakes really high and invests the PCs into the books to come.


1 to 5 of 22 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>
701 to 750 of 884 << first < prev | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | next > last >>

Kittyburger wrote:
Darwyn wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
Darwyn wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
Gancanagh wrote:

How can that blonde "super models" wish for mindless World Peace when even on something so small as an online forum the people can't find peace together about something so small.

I thought this AP was about Demons, not about rights and LGBT's btw...

I did too, and I'm getting a little tired of people who aren't, fussing over two NPCs, with the explicit agenda of trying to back Paizo off of including LGBT characters in their adventures.

Not everyone is fussing over including LGBT characters - some of us are fussing over how these two characters' backgrounds are pretty poorly written, which comes off as forced, even if unintentionally so. They include so many uncommon traits it strains suspension of disbelief.

It's a transgendered woman. AND she's gay. AND her wife is a half-orc paladin. AND the paladin's parents are together out of love, not violence - which, Paizo has told us in Orcs of Golarion, never happens.

Out of hundreds (if not thousands...) of NPCs that appeared in APs (I'm including very minor NPCs in this count - like, those three nameless thugs the PCs take out in encounter area B7, etc.), the ONLY one that has both an unusual sexuality and gender and who loves a halfbreed orc/human is the one in this adventure. Yes, indeed, such characters are exceedingly rare. That is well represented in the numbers here. Also, there ARE gay, transgendered women in our world. The "wife is a half orc paladin" thing really doesn't have to do with the rest. It's not even that odd - half orcs are not in any way inherently evil and so can become paladins just like any humans.

I just have a feeling you and the others who share your opinion would never have had a problem if the NPC was different in a way that didn't have to do with her sexuality - for example, if instead of being a gay transgender, the NPC was a straight male with a REALLY weird class

...

Um, I'm actually aware of the fact being transgendered has little to nothing to do with sexuality. It's about gender. It's been scientifically proven women and men have different brain chemistry. I get that. Transgendered women were born with female brain chemistry, and vice versa.

A friend of mine who I work with is a lesbian. She's never told anyone she has this feeling that she should be siring children instead of baring them.

Look, please understand, I'm not trying to be hostile, and if I was in my previous posts, I apologize. I just think in this instance in an attempt to be more inclusive to transgendered people who are into D&D they went overboard with putting all these specific traits, which, by themselves, are uncommon, into a single couple. It comes off as strained.


Grayn wrote:
I respect your opinion and can see the effective contrast of the loving couple in a world of hate. I just have a problem with the intentional insertion of the social commentary (by Paizo's admission, not my assumption) and not the organic development of the backstory. It feels false to me.

I guess I just fail to see, from your point of view, how this is a different sort of social commentary than the gay characters who have existed in previous Paizo products. These are far from the first gay characters who have been featured. The only real difference here is that one of the characters was born with a male anatomy.

Grand Lodge

Trying desperately to yank things onto a reasonable track...

I think my favorite encounter right now is the temple in area B. Good character building opportunity (being a conflict that has the potential to become really nasty without PC intervention), and a tragedy in three acts. Also, Huecuevas have been a particular favorite undead monster for me.

I also think this encounter demonstrates how a rogue can be the moral center of the party if played right.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Adam Daigle wrote:

I have an indulgent question, if y'all may...

Any opinions on the sinseeker? I was in love with that critter and was frightened how the art might turn out, but working with Andrew and his artist we got an illustration I adore (creepy and cute is a hard thing to order).

I thought it was adorable and ugly at the same time, so I think you succeeded.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
These two characters are extraordinairy because they are a couple who are genuinely in love, not because of their gender and sexuality.

I hear and understand your rebuttal, but I don't necessarily agree with all of it, which is okay with me.

I would ask, why would the couple be extraordinary just because they are in love?

Liberty's Edge

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Grayn,
Because happy married couples do not tend to last long in adventure fiction. One or the other needs to die so the surviving one can have 'motivation'. See prety much every comics couple ever in existence. Ever.


Paul Watson wrote:

Grayn,

Because happy married couples do not tend to last long in adventure fiction. One or the other needs to die so the surviving one can have 'motivation'. See prety much every comics couple ever in existence. Ever.

Well, they haven't been married that long and we don't really know if they will have that motivation in the future.

So, I don't think that answers my question.


Kittyburger wrote:

Trying desperately to yank things onto a reasonable track...

I think my favorite encounter right now is the temple in area B. Good character building opportunity (being a conflict that has the potential to become really nasty without PC intervention), and a tragedy in three acts. Also, Huecuevas have been a particular favorite undead monster for me.

I also think this encounter demonstrates how a rogue can be the moral center of the party if played right.

There are Huecuevas in this AP? I fell in love with the flavor behind those things back at Renchurch :D This would be the PERFECT place for them to show up.

I can't wait to read this

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think it does because it means that happy married couples are rare. Look at most action movies, how many feature a married couple who are both active? Hardly any. If the relationship doesn't generate 'conflcit' it's not used. Same applies to other action fiction, rarely is a happy married couple important action character, they're usually background support.


Paul Watson wrote:

Grayn,

Because happy married couples do not tend to last long in adventure fiction. One or the other needs to die so the surviving one can have 'motivation'. See prety much every comics couple ever in existence. Ever.

Superman and Lois Lane.

Oh, wait. New 52.

Conner Kent and Cassie Sandsmark.

Oh, wait. Geoff Johns, Infinite Crisis, and then the New 52.

Uh, Peter Parker and Mary-Jane Watson.

Oh, wait. Literal deal with the devil, then the former died and almost certainly went straight to Hell.

Er, Green Arrow and Black Canary.

Oh, wait. Broke up over some contrived argument and haven't met in New 52.

Wait, I have one: Reed Richards and Susan Storm. There. Happily married, two kids, still having space adventures.

And another: John Carter and Dejah Thoris. (They have comics about them. They count.)

Not that it's a very long list.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

You missed out Garth and Imra Ranzz of the Legion. Of course that means I get to count the legion (yes, I went there) of broken marriages for that team.


I don't read the Legion comics, so to be honest I wouldn't really know about them.

The Exchange

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Paul Watson wrote:

Grayn,

Because happy married couples do not tend to last long in adventure fiction. One or the other needs to die so the surviving one can have 'motivation'. See prety much every comics couple ever in existence. Ever.

Marriage is even scarcer in APs, I think. I'm stretching my memory to try and find the previous married couple I read about in an AP. The more I give thought to the matter the more I grow convinced that Irabeth and Anevia are NPCs that are supposed to represent ideal, true, and fundamental GOOD. They love and accept each other despite how different and unusual they technically are. They both lost everything they started life with, and are both motivated by a strong desire to protect, help and heal even when darkness is all around them. Their marriage is yet another way that they have achieved something more peaceful and true than most people ever can.

There have certainly been helpful NPCs before, and many of them were willing to risk themselves greatly for good causes, but I can't recall any NPC which was such an overly simplistic example of a good person. In a mythic AP about good triumphing over evil, I found this couple to be very appropriate. I have no idea if this was Paizo's original intent with these NPCs, but that's certainly my take on them.


Paul Watson wrote:

Grayn,

Because happy married couples do not tend to last long in adventure fiction. One or the other needs to die so the surviving one can have 'motivation'. See prety much every comics couple ever in existence. Ever.

And pretty much everything written by Joss Whedon. It's like he has an allergy to happiness or something.

Shadow Lodge

In a lot of ways, I kind of see Horgus as a much better example of good. Sure, he is arrogant, but at the same time, he is, unbeknownst to basically anyone, pretty much the rock which has kept both the city and the various crusading groups going for years. I don't really seem blind acceptance as a particularly good virtue, (either in the sense that it doesn't seem particularly non-neutral or non-evil, or in the sense of why is it an exemplary aspect of goodness), but Irabeth does seem to be the in-your-face good. Have to wait and see, but she might be far too good, too perfect.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Lord Snow wrote:


Marriage is even scarcer in APs, I think. I'm stretching my memory to try and find the previous married couple I read about in an AP.

Lord and Lady Heidmarch

Oleg and Svetlana

Two that immediately came to mind, no stretching necessary; I could probably find more.

Somehow my shipping notice got shoved into my spam folder. I just noticed this in my downloads yesterday and won't get a chance to look at it until tomorrow.

I'm looking forward to reading this AP.

Project Manager

Removed a bunch of meta-discussion about how people who didn't like Anevia were treated. This is a specific product thread. If you want to discuss the attitudes/etc. of the Paizo community, go start a thread for it in the appropriate forum.

Grand Lodge

Tirisfal wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:

Trying desperately to yank things onto a reasonable track...

I think my favorite encounter right now is the temple in area B. Good character building opportunity (being a conflict that has the potential to become really nasty without PC intervention), and a tragedy in three acts. Also, Huecuevas have been a particular favorite undead monster for me.

I also think this encounter demonstrates how a rogue can be the moral center of the party if played right.

There are Huecuevas in this AP? I fell in love with the flavor behind those things back at Renchurch :D This would be the PERFECT place for them to show up.

I can't wait to read this

There's lots of really good scene material that I can't wait to borrow for adventures of my own, even if I never run WotR.

Spoiler:
There are a bunch of areas in the adventure that are "failed" temples to gods of Good, particularly an abandoned shrine to Torag and a descrated temple of Iomedae, and there are monsters in those areas that are related directly to the way that those temples failed.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed a post and reply. Please try to keep this thread on topic.


Adam Daigle wrote:

I have an indulgent question, if y'all may...

Any opinions on the sinseeker? I was in love with that critter and was frightened how the art might turn out, but working with Andrew and his artist we got an illustration I adore (creepy and cute is a hard thing to order).

I think it's great. The picture makes it so ugly, it's cute. If I ever get a chance to play the AP, I might have to take one as a familiar.

-Kcinlive


6 people marked this as a favorite.

Apologies if this is pulling things off topic again. Mods, feel free to delete this if you feel it necessary.

Darwyn wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Yeah, what next, black president of the U.S. who was born on Hawaii to parents of Kenyan origin and his second name is Hussein? Preposterous idea...
Yes, absolutely. Imagine that, an American president who was born in the U.S., which is a legal requirement, and is black because his parents are from Kenya, an African country, where the vast majority of people, are, in fact, black. What an unbelievable combination of events.

But that's the point. Plenty of trans women are bi or lesbian. (I'm trans and bi myself.) Plenty of transwomen are in relationships with cis-women, either with lesbians or with women who are bi. If both are lesbian, they thus form a lesbian couple. In countries or states where it's allowed, plenty of lesbian couples get married.

So, considering that each individual element is not unlikely, and that various combinations of those elements are not unlikely, is it really unlikely that: a person turns out to be transgender (it happens). She also realizes that she's attracted to women, and is a lesbian (it happens). She finds another lesbian who likes her, and they fall in love (it happens). Their love for each other is strong and lasting, so they get married (it happens). As Kittyburger has repeatedly stated, such people do exist, and you've been conversing with one over the message board (so you have, in fact, met such a person).

Transpose these individual elements, and their real world likelihood of coexistance, over into Golarion, and the characters don't seem forced or unlikely. (Or no more so than any NPC in any adventure.)

James, Jessica, Neil, and Jim, thank you for your statements on the topic earlier in the thread. Thank you to Amber Scott for including the couple. Again, sorry if this re-derails. I won't post in this thread again.

Darwyn, I agree with you on Whedon's apparent allergy to happiness. It's a weakness in his work.

And to add to Alleran's list, there's Nick and Nora Charles in the Thin Man series (book and films). Actually, that pair would make for a good model for a happily married adventuring couple.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Grayn wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
These two characters are extraordinairy because they are a couple who are genuinely in love, not because of their gender and sexuality.

I hear and understand your rebuttal, but I don't necessarily agree with all of it, which is okay with me.

I would ask, why would the couple be extraordinary just because they are in love?

Tally the number of characters in healthy loving relationships across the AP line. I bet you can count them on one hand. Love is a rare and precious commodity on Golarion it seems, if these two crazy kids managed to find it then that should be celebrated.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So what, exactly, do you want Grayn? What keeps you coming back to this particular thread to discuss this particular topic? Are you hoping to, through some combination of luck and logic, convince Paizo that LGBT characters should no longer appear in adventures? Or convince your fellow posters that this is somehow a bigger issue (agenda/conspiracy/whatever), and not just a personal problem?

Because I'm confident that neither scenario will occur. There will continue to be LGBT characters, just as there will continue to be readers who find such characters "in their face" and "shoved down their throat" due to prejudice. Far more fortunately, the number of readers who find nothing wrong with such characters whatsoever will continue to grow beyond the majority they already are. No amount of luck or logic will alter that.

You've made your point. You personally don't like the character.


Generic Villain wrote:

So what, exactly, do you want Grayn? What keeps you coming back to this particular thread to discuss this particular topic? Are you hoping to, through some combination of luck and logic, convince Paizo that LGBT characters should no longer appear in adventures? Or convince your fellow posters that this is somehow a bigger issue (agenda/conspiracy/whatever), and not just a personal problem?

Because I'm confident that neither scenario will occur. There will continue to be LGBT characters, just as there will continue to be readers who find such characters "in their face" and "shoved down their throat" due to prejudice. Far more fortunately, the number of readers who find nothing wrong with such characters whatsoever will continue to grow beyond the majority they already are. No amount of luck or logic will alter that.

You've made your point. You personally don't like the character.

Generic, read through my posts, its all there. You are baiting and avoiding the discussion.

And that's what I want, a respectful discussion. But, that seems impossible with some ( but not everyone).

Also, I have been posting for only a couple days, far from continuously coming back here. You're just trying to drive people off these boards that you don't agree with.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Grayn wrote:
Generic Villain wrote:

So what, exactly, do you want Grayn? What keeps you coming back to this particular thread to discuss this particular topic? Are you hoping to, through some combination of luck and logic, convince Paizo that LGBT characters should no longer appear in adventures? Or convince your fellow posters that this is somehow a bigger issue (agenda/conspiracy/whatever), and not just a personal problem?

Because I'm confident that neither scenario will occur. There will continue to be LGBT characters, just as there will continue to be readers who find such characters "in their face" and "shoved down their throat" due to prejudice. Far more fortunately, the number of readers who find nothing wrong with such characters whatsoever will continue to grow beyond the majority they already are. No amount of luck or logic will alter that.

You've made your point. You personally don't like the character.

Generic, read through my posts, its all there. You are baiting and avoiding the discussion.

And that's what I want, a respectful discussion. But, that seems impossible with some ( but not everyone).

Also, I have been posting for only a couple days, far from continuously coming back here. You're just trying to drive people off these boards that you don't agree with.

You said that a trans lesbian character in an interracial relationship is "unrealistic" social commentary, despite the fact that an actual trans lesbian has been posting in this thread, who is acquainted with no fewer than three trans lesbians who are in interracial relationships.

Using the word "unrealistic" to describe an actual situation that people are living in is... well, a few unkind words come to mind.


Kitty, this is a discussion about fictional characters not an attack on you or your friends.

If you relate so strongly with the characters and can't separate the two, I am sorry but that's not my fault.

I will ask, do you find anything wrong with the two characters?

Grand Lodge

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Grayn wrote:

Kitty, this is a discussion about fictional characters not an attack on you or your friends.

If you relate so strongly with the characters and can't separate the two, I am sorry but that's not my fault.

When you're transgender, positive representation is a rare and precious thing when it appears. I can think of maybe two characters in the last five years in serial visual media (Candis Cayne as Ms. Hudson in Elementary and Laverne Cox as Sophia Burset in Orange is the New Black), and perhaps a double-handful more in print. The latter I am eminently qualified to comment on, because I just did a research project on the subject. The literary penetration of trans women characters in roles that are not exploitive or pathologizing is fleetingly small and for the most part relatively recent. And as to the price of erasure,

"When you fail to find yourself in books—or people like you, who live in neighborhoods like yours, who look like you and love like you—you begin to question your place in the world. You begin to question if those people who make up your neighborhood and your family are worth writing about, if you are worth writing about. Maybe no one thinks about them or you. Maybe no one sees you." - Jaquira Diaz

Quote:
I will ask, do you find anything wrong with the two characters?

Really? No. Their story arc in the module until their reunion is "I am separated from my love and I need you to help reunite us," which is a pretty bog-standard high fantasy NPC subplot. I don't think anybody would be objecting to them if they weren't lesbian and one wasn't transgender, which suggests animus rather strongly to me.


Is "interracial" correct when talking about orcs and humans giving birth to half-orcs? Isn't inter-species closer? Interracial examples are Chelaxian with Keleshite, Garundi with Tian, Azlanti with Ulfen, Elf with Drow (AFAIK), and so on and so forth. Inter-species are things like Human and Elf, Elf and Dwarf, Human and Orc, Dwarf and Dragon, Human and Dragon, and so on.

To clarify, I am not attempting to be offensive, but I've always understood race as things like skin pigmentation, bone structure and so on, while species are considerably "more different" (though in some cases interbreeding is still possible, at the price of the sterility risk in offspring - mules, for example).

Grand Lodge

Alleran wrote:

Is "interracial" correct when talking about orcs and humans giving birth to half-orcs? Isn't inter-species closer? Interracial examples are Chelaxian with Keleshite, Garundi with Tian, Azlanti with Ulfen, Elf with Drow (AFAIK), and so on and so forth. Inter-species are things like Human and Elf, Elf and Dwarf, Human and Orc, Dwarf and Dragon, Human and Dragon, and so on.

To clarify, I am not attempting to be offensive, but I've always understood race as things like skin pigmentation, bone structure and so on, while species are considerably "more different" (though in some cases interbreeding is still possible, at the price of the sterility risk in offspring - mules, for example).

Humans, elves, and orcs are interfertile, so I think in this case "interracial" is appropriate. Borrowing modern linnean terminology for a moment, it seems pretty certain that all three are at most separate subspecies of H. sapiens.

Silver Crusade

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Grayn the statement has never been made in this thread "Why couldn't she be just trans*?" but the statement has been made of "Why couldn't she just be lesbian?" Which I, for one, take as a personal attack. As Kitty said, (and as I said before) trans* characters in media are very rare, especially positive portrayals where we aren't portrayed as just predators, victims or jokes. To remove or question one such positive representation is to dehumanize a subset of the population. So yes, I do take attacks on that portion of the character to be attacks on me.


Alleran wrote:
Is "interracial" correct when talking about orcs and humans giving birth to half-orcs? Isn't inter-species closer? Interracial examples are Chelaxian with Keleshite, Garundi with Tian, Azlanti with Ulfen, Elf with Drow (AFAIK), and so on and so forth. Inter-species are things like Human and Elf, Elf and Dwarf, Human and Orc, Dwarf and Dragon, Human and Dragon, and so on.

Technically Chelaxians / Ulfen / Garundi are all Race = Human. Orcs are a different Race in game terms, as are Half-Orcs.

So RAW - a Human and Orc are Inter-Racial.


Kittyburger wrote:
Humans, elves, and orcs are interfertile, so I think in this case "interracial" is appropriate. Borrowing modern linnean terminology for a moment, it seems pretty certain that all three are at most separate subspecies of H. sapiens.

So you think the same species but different subspecies? I was sort of thinking same genus, like chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, humans, and so on. Maybe subspecies, I suppose, depending on how different they wind up being.

I wonder what orc or elf DNA/chromosomes are like. Golarion is at least nominally set in a universe similar to our own (ref. Rasputin Must Die), after all. Of course, D&D always played very fast and loose with the concept of race and species. Which is why there are half-elves, half-orcs, half-dragons, half-elementals, half-celestials, half-giants, half-fiends, and all the other ones that I couldn't hope to remember without looking at a list.

Anyway, don't mind me. General stream of consciousness on the subject of human-orc classification, I guess.

Quote:

Orcs are a different Race in game terms, as are Half-Orcs.

So RAW - a Human and Orc are Inter-Racial.

Well, I was wondering on a more scientific basis than Rules As Written. In reality all the different human variations I mentioned should be race, while orcs would be another step or two up the chain. See above about playing fast and loose with things.

(Minor edit to make it clear which post is replying to what.)


Ring cline species, such as certain Arctic birds. Elves and orcs are far enough apart genetically that they probably can't breed directly with each other, even though both are effectively human subspecies.


Kittyburger wrote:

When you're transgender, positive representation is a rare and precious thing when it appears. I can think of maybe two characters in the last five years in serial visual media (Candis Cayne as Ms. Hudson in Elementary and Laverne Cox as Sophia Burset in Orange is the New Black), and perhaps a double-handful more in print. The latter I am eminently qualified to comment on, because I just did a research project on the subject. The literary penetration of trans women characters in roles that are not exploitive or pathologizing is fleetingly small and for the most part relatively recent. And as to the price of erasure,

"When you fail to find yourself in books—or people like you, who live in neighborhoods like yours, who look like you and love like you—you begin to question your place in the world. You begin to question if those people who make up your neighborhood and your family are worth writing about, if you are worth writing about. Maybe no one thinks about them or you. Maybe no one sees you." - Jaquira Diaz

Kittyburger, thank you for honest and candid answer. It helps me understand your point of view and more importantly, you as a person.

Cori Marie wrote:
Grayn the statement has never been made in this thread "Why couldn't she be just trans*?" but the statement has been made of "Why couldn't she just be lesbian?" Which I, for one, take as a personal attack. As Kitty said, (and as I said before) trans* characters in media are very rare, especially positive portrayals where we aren't portrayed as just predators, victims or jokes. To remove or question one such positive representation is to dehumanize a subset of the population. So yes, I do take attacks on that portion of the character to be attacks on me.

Cori, let me start by apologizing. I never intended to dehumanize you. The lack of including "trans" along with lesbian was a mistake on my part. I truly don't see any difference in trans, gay, lesbian, straight or whatever. My opinion on this thread is about how the focus is on the identity and not on the character. I want characters that are defined by their strengths and flaws, not solely by their partners.

701 to 750 of 884 << first < prev | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Paizo / Product Discussion / Pathfinder Adventure Path #73: The Worldwound Incursion (Wrath of the Righteous 1 of 6) (PFRPG) All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.