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Saw it. There are more plot holes than you can shake a stick at.
The new characters are terrible as usual. The old characters are either being sidelined (Chewbacca) or being forced to act completely out of character (Luke) in order to promote the new characters.
Star Wars used to be one of my favorite franchises but Disney has killed it for me. I won't be seeing the last episode because I just don't care what happens any more.
Oh well. There's plenty of sci-fi franchises out there that are still good so it's not the end of the world.
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Was there some sort of Chewbacca soliloquy that I missed in the original series? Because he was always a side character, people talked about him more than too him.
They should have had the furducks pilot the falcon while chewie blew up at-ats.
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Me and a friend were talking and we think that
It's not decades, right? Ben Solo isn't that old. According to the Wiki timeline it's not clear exactly when that scene happened, but it was not more than 6 years before the movies.
Adam Driver is 34, so assuming Kylo is about the same age, it could have been as much as 15-17 years earlier (since Luke was calling him "a boy").
Legacy was also utter garbage.
loved legacy.
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not letting Poe in on her plan, why does he get a pass for not letting her in on his plan?
1) No way he's a traitor when the fleet would be dead 4 times over without him.
2) The white bronco police chase through the stars plan without the empire sending all the fighters to just shoot them down support or no support, AND without sending a ship ahead, and without calling in reinforcements, AND relying on the empire to scan for escape ships but not SCAN for escape ships , is so monumentally stupid and nonsensical that "she's setting us up" is a far more likely option.
Iirc, this isnt the first time they have done a sublight escape...
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For those of you blaming Holdo for
** spoiler omitted **
Knowing that Poe "Man! Of! Action!" Dameron isn't going to take enforced idleness terribly well isn't exactly a shock. Cluing him in would have been sensible damage control to head off hotshot solo efforts which a quick analysis of his character would have made a pretty obvious eventuality.
He's going to try to do something, regardless, so if you don't want him screwing up your very real (albeit pretty stupid from a military history perspective) plan, you need to let him know it exists and that it's contingent upon maintaining fleet discipline.
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2b) Why the FO sending a ship ahead via hyperspace wouldn't work has already been discussed.
No. very bad attempts to patch the plot hole have been offered, and not worked. Still breaks the plots axle and sends it flying off into a ditch. Admiral Holdo as a character unfortunately goes with it.
Can anyone tell me how fast tie fighters are relative to republic cruisers? There is a gaping plot hole that the movie kinda blithely waved off.
Also, how many tie's would the FO had available in that fleet? More than what was shown I have no doubt.
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The movie was good. DJ is probably my new favorite Star Wars character—a Boba Fett with an actual personality and motivation beyond "a!#~#%+". Rose was a great addition to the cast. It was just good. Probably the best Star Wars movie ever made, excepting possibly Empire Strikes Back (bearing in mind that I think most people are a little too in love with the old movies—they're good, not great).
Oh, Poe's development was good. The plothole is a real plothole, don't get me wrong, but it was all very good from a character standpoint—calling out Poe's dumb heroics for what they were, and giving the spotlight to the character most movies would paint as the villain for not supporting said dumb heroics, was necessary for his growth in the movie.
Anyone who hates the new characters will obviously hate this movie. I don't know why they're still watching. Luke's, Han's and Leia's story ended two movies ago.
There's plenty I could say about it, but I'll just leave off with this: Maz Kanata better not be a union buster.
** spoiler omitted **
Unfortunately, the new movies made the entire subject of the balance of the force far more confusing now that they're talking about a light side. In the original movies, there was *no light side*. It serously was never mentioned. The jedi simply used the force, not the light side of the force. The dark side was a corruption and imbalance of the force. Whether the main 'force' was inherently good or just neutral would be an entire other subject.
The fact that the new movies talk about a light side firmly put them into the category of fan fiction written by people who didn't pay attention to the originals IMO.
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Ties are much faster than the cruisers, but they were explicitly called off in the movie when the cruisers got too far away for the destroyers to give proper fire support.
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You can argue bad tactics, but it's not really a plot hole if it was explicitly stated in the movie.
** spoiler omitted **
It is when you tell one thing but show another.
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There's plenty I could say about it, but I'll just leave off with this: Maz Kanata better not be a union buster.
It's possible that the "unions" are a glorified Protection Racket who do little in the way of authentically ensuring that the working rights of the bartenders, dealers, entertainers, and janitorial staff at her Space Casino are upheld.
It's also possible that living 500 years has no effect on being able to sympathize to a perspective antithetical to your own material conditions.
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Can anyone tell me how fast tie fighters are relative to republic cruisers? There is a gaping plot hole that the movie kinda blithely waved off.
Also, how many tie's would the FO had available in that fleet? More than what was shown I have no doubt.
I'm not sure what the plot hole is?
Ties are much faster than the cruisers, but they were explicitly called off in the movie when the cruisers got too far away for the destroyers to give proper fire support.
This is the kinda issue that really undermines my enjoyment of the movie. If I was a causal movie goer probably couldn't care less, but this is the crux, an imperial star destroyer was supposed to carry 72 fighters. These first order behemoths one would assume carry as many or more..during Poe's and Finns escape in TFW we see one bay held at least a dozen. So with all those capital ships chasing the rebels, why would you send out just a small number? You should have several hundred to spare..and when did the empire ever care about Tie losses? Is there a supply constraint we are not made aware of?
I am sure some smart ass is now going to chime in about how the original Death Star had thousands and only sent out 6 and then another 3..So yeah, you got me..but as the Wolf states, the small number they sent out in TLJ are effective, so the whole plot line that follows makes no sense.
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Star Wars is purely space opera. It's only science fiction if your fiction contains nearly zero science.
An ISD doesn't carry 72 TIEs. It carries "enough TIEs to act as a dramatic counterbalance to whatever the Rebels/Resistance are using." Every technical detail and do-dad is subject to the Laws of Drama and Plot, not Physics.
Star Wars is purely space opera. It's only science fiction if your fiction contains nearly zero science.
An ISD doesn't carry 72 TIEs. It carries "enough TIEs to act as a dramatic counterbalance to whatever the Rebels/Resistance are using." Every technical detail and do-dad is subject to the Laws of Drama and Plot, not Physics.
I totally get what you are saying, the plot dictates the action.
Every story is different, and where continuity is a problem, disregard.
In that light, its a great fun movie.
I guess I just like realism in my space opera, just like I want realism in my fantasy.
It's a hard act to maintain, as we can see from Game of Thrones which for the last 2 seasons has thrown away the travel rulebook in favour of advancing the story. Same process at work here. I understand it, but don't like it.
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Saw The Last Jedi a couple of days ago. As a big Star Wars fan, my reaction to it was mixed. For me, it was certainly my least favourite of the most recent movies, and might require a rewatch and some further thought.
Things I Didn’t Like
The Rebels OnThe Run/Armada in Flight plot-line.
A slow crawl through space isn’t quite the edge of your seat, adrenaline rush I’m used to in a Star Wars space battle. It seemed to make little logical sense – all the capital ships travel at exactly the same speed, for some reason the First Order don’t just send the fighters and bombers in, why don’t the First Order just call some extra ships to jump in and trap the fleet etc. Given the size of the galaxy, it felt odd to see the Resistance consisting of only a handful of ships compared to the substantial armada fielded during the Battle Of Endor. The “tracking through lightspeed” development didn’t feel very Star Wars – defining how Star Wars tech works always feels a little like a game of jenga.
I would have preferred a larger, longer running space battle involving larger fleets on both sides – a fighting retreat on the part of the Resistance. It would have been fun to have put Poe back in an X-wing and told his character arc with a few more dogfights rather him stuck on a starship. Fin and Rose’s expedition could have been about uncovering a traitor broadcasting the Resistance’s location rather than a convoluted means of overcoming First Order radar, which leads me to;
Casino Bight
As many agree, this felt like the flimsiest element of the film. I loved spending time with Fin and Rose, but the planet and plot seemed underdeveloped. In theory I loved the concept of seeing a hive of scum and villainy with money to burn, but Casino Bight didn’t seem to have much depth. Too many of its elements just seemed ported straight out of ‘real world casinos’ – not a lot of imagination there. We seemed to spend too much time there without anything really making an impression. Some better world-building and boiling down the excursion to Casino Bight to two or three really good scenes would have been a good improvement. Plus making that excursion actually matter.
Yoda
There were a couple of moments that felt too close to fan-service to me. “Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you’re my only hope” might have gone there were I not feeling so much love for the departed spirit of Carrie. But Yoda’s return annoyed me. I felt there could have been other ways to guide Luke back to his final act. A few disembodied lines drifting out of the Force I would have been fine with, but the scene we got felt too much like a desire to bring back the little green gnome because he’s so associated with Star Wars. Didn’t want to see him, though it wasn’t quite as irritating as watching him throw down with Count Dooku.
Things I Loved
Rey+Ren
I thought this arc was superbly done and superbly acted. It brought a new direction to the core of what makes Star Wars special – the lure of the Dark Side. The dismissal of Rey’s parentage made perfect sense to me, and creates a healthy democratisation of the Star Wars universe which opens up space for new stories to be told. The easy dispatching of Snoke was also excellent – Ren makes a much more compelling antagonist and the subversion of expectations was delicious. The following battle against Snoke’s bodyguards was a brilliant action scene – one of my favourites in the franchise. Really looking forward to how Rey+Ren plays out in Episode IX.
Old Man Luke
Luke’s story also really worked for me. His self-imposed exile chimed with my impressions of his character from the original trilogy – as a figure who struggles with the burden the Force has placed upon him, the dark weight of his lineage and the lack of support he had in trying to rebuild the Jedi. Shutting himself off from the Force helped answer many questions raised by The Force Awakens, and I liked how his return to the fray didn’t happen easily. The final Force projection twist left me uncertain – it was a good one, but I felt that Leia should have sensed he wasn’t really there and given us some subtle indication. Mark Hamill’s performance was commendable, it’s a shame we’ve not seen him on the silver screen much outside of Star Wars.
Porgs
Adorable!
Things I’m unsure about
Princess Mary Poppins
Again, the good will I feel towards Carrie Fisher helped me accept her Mary Poppins moment. But I wouldn’t have put it in if I were the director.
BB8 Maquina
I really loved BB8 in The Force Awakens but he risked being too clever and adaptable in this, just as R2-D2 could kind of do anything in the prequels. He was a little bit too good at taking out ranks of stormtroopers while piloting a walker.
Phasma
Great to see her have more to do in The Last Jedi but still want more. Seems fairly likely she didn’t survive her fate but if she reappears in Episode IX I’ll be happy.
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Star Wars is purely space opera. It's only science fiction if your fiction contains nearly zero science.
Space opera is light on the science side of science fiction, but still requires a resemblance of internal consistency
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Saw The Last Jedi a couple of days ago. As a big Star Wars fan, my reaction to it was mixed. For me, it was certainly my least favourite of the most recent movies, and might require a rewatch and some further thought.
Spoiler:Old Man Luke
The final Force projection twist left me uncertain – it was a good one, but I felt that Leia should have sensed he wasn’t really there and given us some subtle indication. Mark Hamill’s performance was commendable, it’s a shame we’ve not seen him on the silver screen much outside of Star Wars.Princess Mary Poppins
Again, the good will I feel towards Carrie Fisher helped me accept her Mary Poppins moment. But I wouldn’t have put it in if I were the director.
Mary Poppins indeed. Jedi have been shown levitating things and themselves with the force throughout the movies. Saving oneself by moving to a place of safety should not be derided.
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Saw it last night.
But other than that, I enjoyed it. Liked the twist at the end. Liked the scenes with Luke. I liked it wasn't an entirely flagrant remake of a previous film (previous episode, I'm looking at you) and carved out some new ground. Interested to see where they go with it for the next episode.
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And being wiped out, then reviving the tradition, and having to subdue an entire galaxy, didn't do any favors for the First Order's organization. The two dunderheads running it at the end of this movie are kind of the icons of bad spaceNazi planning.
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If I recall correctly the First Order were former Empire Soldiers who were in charge of/had access to the Empire's armories/surplus and thought "hey, we got all the guns and bombs now, let's take over!".
I'm probably horribly wrong on that.
I'm not aware of that being mentioned anywhere in the films. Though they always seem to have plenty of hardware, no matter how much seems to get blown up. Lousy tactics, but great logistics.
(And replying to the spoilers above)
Though I take the point that the First Order is probably not a sort of set up where self-criticism and openness to ideas further down the chain of command would be welcome. "Er, Sir, I just noticed we have no escort sh-" "Shut up and get back to your post!"
I agree it doesn't really matter, and I also agree it isn't the point - the point is to have lots of flashy explosions and generally an entertaining film, rather than a dry treatise on fantasy naval tactics in space. And it didn't really impact on my impression of the film (spaceships with glass jaws are almost a tradition - a feature, rather than a fault - in Star Wars). It's just a quibble. And who cares anyway, other than a few armchair nerds like myself who have played too much Traveller?
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Star Wars is purely space opera. It's only science fiction if your fiction contains nearly zero science.Space opera is light on the science side of science fiction, but still requires a resemblance of internal consistency
Meh. Internal consistency is fine when it doesn't interfere with story or plot and as long as the inconsistencies aren't egregious*. With the rise of internet movie analysts and critics, too much emphasis gets placed on internal consistency to the determent of everything else. It's almost like people would be happier with a crap story as long as the writers adhere to every previous shared detail. Then any incosistency get s shouted from the rooftops as "plothole!".
TLJ was about as internally consistent as any previous SW movie, which makes the movies consistently internally inconsistent. I'm cool with that.
* - I admit that everyone's "ergreious" tolerance level is different.
** spoiler omitted **
* - I admit that everyone's "ergreious" tolerance level is different.
This passed it. At warp speed.
Its like a whole bunch of different ideas for cool scenes that don't go with what came before or even match whats in the same movie. I mean, this isn't a little thing like ice cream guy being in two places at once.
The plot can't be "we have to keep going" while you have an escape pod that can can evacuate people and come back but inexplicably isn't.
Luke force projecting makes sense. Luke Watching one sun set while watching another one rise is a cool scene. But they don't work together.
Whats the point? Why not have him actually there if he's going to die?
You can't have Gonzo piloting be "Wrong" while it works.
Weaponizing light speed looks cool. But raises way too many issues.