Star Wars The Last Jedi


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Dark Archive

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In case you were wondering where it was, there is confirmation that BB - 8 says, ‘I have a bad feeling about this,’ in the opening combat scene.

Silver Crusade

baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Rysky wrote:
I think... I don't really know what that reply was about (I know what the scene is).

Aghast Baron Arem Heshvaun wrote:

You can’t weaponize Lightspeed!

Rysky wrote:
I’m sure there was plenty of First Oder soldiers and officers screaming the same thing

Director Krennic said in link:

Oh, that’s beautiful (retort).

Gotcha.

Dark Archive

Freehold DM wrote:
of course you can. It was already mentioned in episode 4 and it happened in rogue one.

That only applies to larger bodies with a mass and have strong enough to gravities to project that pull your ship out of lightspeed. At least that was what the former thinking was.

How about this then, how can a flagship that size or advanced not have shielding that would not obliterate anything the size of the Raddus on impact?

Silver Crusade

baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
of course you can. It was already mentioned in episode 4 and it happened in rogue one.

That only applies to larger bodies with a mass and have strong enough to gravities to project that pull your ship out of lightspeed. At least that was what the former thinking was.

How about this then, how can a flagship that size or advanced not have shielding that would not obliterate anything the size of the Raddus on impact?

1) Lightspeed bypassed it?

2) the budget went elsewhere?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
of course you can. It was already mentioned in episode 4 and it happened in rogue one.

That only applies to larger bodies with a mass and have strong enough to gravities to project that pull your ship out of lightspeed. At least that was what the former thinking was.

How about this then, how can a flagship that size or advanced not have shielding that would not obliterate anything the size of the Raddus on impact?

You only win the Marvel (Disney) No Prize if you can explain how it works. We saw that it worked in the film, so you have to work backwards.

Dark Archive

It’s EU now, but it was Canon from 1983 for a long time, in the Star Wars comic, three Star Destroyers, one being a significlaly larger Admirality Class Destroyer, in a grave miscalculation, micro jump out of Lightspeed and disintegrate upon the Executor’s shields, overloading the Vader ship’s shields but barely scratching the giant.

Silver Crusade

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Somebody spent a Destiny Point.

Dark Archive

And Snoke was caught with his robe open.

Dark Archive

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Who I was hoping they would find at Canto Bight.

Dark Archive

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Darkness Rises, and Light to Meet It.


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Some day someone will weaponize Star Wars fandom rage into the new Death Star...


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shaventalz wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
shaventalz wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Now let me explain from this perspective: That shot, and moment were awesome, everybody left the cinema with that silent cut burned into their brain. If you take that moment out, or do something else this movie would have been less awesome. Does anybody really want a less awesome Star War?

I have plenty of choices for "awesome."

I come to Star Wars for a coherent plot, heroic fantasy in space, and laser swords.

Coherent plot?

Looks at the prequels, then looks at the camera like he's on The Office.

** spoiler omitted **

They didn't have the greatest plot, and they resorted to Handwavium a few times too many, but each prequel's plot was basically coherent and internally consistent.

No they weren't. They were contrived and forced. The basic premise of the prequels is completely illogical.


So...I'm wrong?


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Also, if lightspeed is weaponizable, why didn't the rebels just fly a single ship through the Deathstar? No need to hit the exhaust port. Just punch a hole through the core, or the laser array, and no more danger.

When facing off against the dreadnaught at impossible odds where you know you'll lose most of your bombers... why not just jump one bomber through the dreadnaught? Same effect on the bomber, but it only cost you one.

Actually, hyperspace travel would be incredibly dangerous. Small specs of dust that drift into a space lane would create a chain reaction of exploding ships.


I still think the Empire will find a way to weaponize the hatred from some Star Wars fan to make the ultimate Death Star...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Irontruth wrote:

Also, if lightspeed is weaponizable, why didn't the rebels just fly a single ship through the Deathstar? No need to hit the exhaust port. Just punch a hole through the core, or the laser array, and no more danger.

When facing off against the dreadnaught at impossible odds where you know you'll lose most of your bombers... why not just jump one bomber through the dreadnaught? Same effect on the bomber, but it only cost you one.

Actually, hyperspace travel would be incredibly dangerous. Small specs of dust that drift into a space lane would create a chain reaction of exploding ships.

It took a cruiser doing this trick to cut a slice off one big ship. If this same ship tried the same trick on the Death Star it would have just made an impact crater on that heavily armoured shell and the Rebellion would have been down a capital ship, with a Death Star rounding on Yavin IV.


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Are we seriously discussing physics and military tactics in a Star Wars film?

I think that's a rather dark and madness inducing road, my friends.

Best to avoid it entirely and just enjoy the nonsensical space battles for what they are, if you ask me.

Silver Crusade

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Spoiler:

Stupid parts of the movie

These parts break the star wars universe as it has been shown to be.

Lightspeed as a weapon - so why has nobody done this before? It's not like it isn't a simple concept that would have been utilised before.

Resistance Bombers - wtf did they use droppable bombs? Why did the bombs go straight down? Bombers in star wars are generally craft that maneuver and then fire torpedoes/missiles. The B-Wing bomber should have been used in this instance.

The resistance lost maybe 20 people in the dreadnought attack, to take out 2000 plus enemy and a giant ship.

The ridiculous statement - saving those we love over killing the enemy, was a particularly stupid statement for two reasons 1 - It spat in the face of the heroic sacrifice Rose's sister had just made to take out a significant enemy resource. 2- War when done right is to stop the enemy from achieving their objectives by the best means, which will protect those you love.

Snoke's - I cannot be betrayed - was retarded hubris - this movie at this stage was stinking of an advert for anti-toxic masculinity. The Emperor (Presumably more powerful than Snoke otherwise he wouldn't have been in hiding) was betrayed by Vader.

This movie was all over the place, it tried to tell to many stories while, not actually going anywhere.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Now let me explain from this perspective: That shot, and moment were awesome

Opinion is divided on the subject.

My reaction was, "huh."

Followed by...

Spoiler:
"Why didn't they do that earlier with the medical frigate, since they still had to sacrifice a guy at the helm? Or transfer everybody from the bigger ship to the smaller transports and other vessels and have it turn at bay like it's GOING to give a fight and then Ramming Speed?"

Yeah, yeah, the other ships ran out of fuel sooner, but you note when that's about to happen and you do your turnaround before you can't hum the Klingon theme and scream "It's a good day to die!"

Especially if you're going to be handing out lectures about stupid suicidal heroics to arrogant flyboys.

Quote:
Does anybody really want a less awesome Star War?

No, but definitions of awesome are clearly not universal.

And note that I didn't HATE the movie- I just found it incredibly uneven.


Delightful wrote:

Are we seriously discussing physics and military tactics in a Star Wars film?

I think that's a rather dark and madness inducing road, my friends.

Best to avoid it entirely and just enjoy the nonsensical space battles for what they are, if you ask me.

Even when the movie actually does focus on military tactics in its narrative?

There are some things in Star Wars that you don't do because as unwritten rule we don't think about them. That scene was one. If you do it once, then you establish that it is a thing. And that makes it a rule that must work in the future too, AND in the past, unless you elaborate on it which the movies will never have the time to do.

Fantasy Scifi has a delicate balancing act to it. You can't take back anything.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Spoiler:
Maybe you can’t just lightspeed into things, but have to run into something as you’re jumping to light speed?

So it’s really difficult to pull it off, not only because you have to jump from really short range, but you have to time your jump perfectly. Get the timing off, and you either bounce off their shields ineffectually, or get all the way into hyperspace and pass through them (since they don’t have enough mass to drop you out)

That’s just me guessing though.

As to the bombers, they were clearly a riff on old WWII era bombers, calling back to the inspiration for the original film’s dogfight sequences, I really liked them.

Scarab Sages

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Spoilers Please:
Light speed as a weapon: When going to light speed, a ship doesn't instantly start going faster than light. It builds up to speed, then crosses over the threshold. This is what happened in Last Jedi. The cruiser was almost to the threshold when it rammed Snoke's ship.
As for the shields, they use up a lot of power. Unless a ship is actually in battle, I doubt they are set at their highest level. For in-system flight against a fleeing enemy who has not launched any type of attack their shields would not be at full strength.

The incident with Leia: It was asked earlier if a Jedi can survive in space.
It has been established people can survive in space. In New Hope one of the X-Wing pilots was told to eject. So someone in a flight suit can survive for a short period until rescued.
In Empire, Han, Chewbacca and Leia leave the Falcon while in the Space Slug. All they needed was an oxygen mask. Han and Leia were also wearing thermal clothing from Hoth, and Chewy had his winter coat, so the cold wasn't a factor. So what kept their bodies from exploding while in the vacuum of space? The Falcon's shields! It acted like the flights suit do, keeping pressure on the outside of the body.

In Last Jedi Leia was still inside the shield's influence, so she didn't explode. Despite not being a Jedi, she is still powerful with the Force. Luke did give her some training in the last 30 years. She was able to use it to keep just enough air around her until she made it back to the ship, although the cold was starting to have an affect.

That is how Leia survived.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

Also, if lightspeed is weaponizable, why didn't the rebels just fly a single ship through the Deathstar? No need to hit the exhaust port. Just punch a hole through the core, or the laser array, and no more danger.

When facing off against the dreadnaught at impossible odds where you know you'll lose most of your bombers... why not just jump one bomber through the dreadnaught? Same effect on the bomber, but it only cost you one.

Actually, hyperspace travel would be incredibly dangerous. Small specs of dust that drift into a space lane would create a chain reaction of exploding ships.

It took a cruiser doing this trick to cut a slice off one big ship. If this same ship tried the same trick on the Death Star it would have just made an impact crater on that heavily armoured shell and the Rebellion would have been down a capital ship, with a Death Star rounding on Yavin IV.

This is the problem though. You and I can debate this, and potentially both be right, but this isn't the kind of movie that should have debatable aspects.

Take American Psycho, is it all in his head, or was it real? Now, not everyone is going to like the movie, but the whole point of the movie is to ask this question, but not to answer it. It also means that you can question everything within the movie as well. The Shining, 2001, No Country For Old Men, and Total Recall are some other good examples.

Star Wars is not an example of one of those movies. Also, in Return, the team on the planet successfully removed the Deathstar-in-construction's shields. If this tactic was a thing, why didn't Ackbar order one ship to destroy the station, while the others jumped to safety? He would have lost fewer ships that way and it meets all the criteria of our situation (close range, using a larger ship, no shields).

The point is, if you want to introduce a new concept in sci-fi, you need to set it up. In a long running series, you also need to reconcile it with past events.

In general though, the Star Wars series should never introduce "new" tech. It should all be "old". Think about watching the original series now, you kind of accept the look and feel of the "high tech" culture, even though it is clearly lower tech in certain aspects to 2017 Earth. By having them change and adapt technology within the series, it begs the question: why didn't this super advanced culture with freaking faster-than-light travel already have this? The tech rules were established in the original trilogy, modifying that at all is a dangerous game at this point.

You can disagree if you want. I won't care. This is how I feel about this. I'm not saying you have to care about this. Feel free to ignore these flaws. I still enjoyed the movie overall.


baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
of course you can. It was already mentioned in episode 4 and it happened in rogue one.

That only applies to larger bodies with a mass and have strong enough to gravities to project that pull your ship out of lightspeed. At least that was what the former thinking was.

How about this then, how can a flagship that size or advanced not have shielding that would not obliterate anything the size of the Raddus on impact?

i would argue proximity was a factor, and we have seen similar things happen in star wars rebels. But bringing physics into star wars or vice versa is a bad idea.


The problem isn't physics its internal consistency

Spoiler:

A light speed cruiser really should be the weapon of choice of the resistance, constantly, if its possible.

If the escape pod can leave and come back... why isn't it leaving and coming back repeatedly to help people escape? It can get to a neutralish planet where people can blend in if they're not complete idiots, it can probably get somewhere better.


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CapeCodRPGer wrote:
I am surprised that
Spoiler:
When Rey found out what really happened with Luke and Kylo at Luke’s training temple, Luke didn’t say “what I told you was true, from a certain point of view.”

Hell, Luke has had plenty of time to practice, he could've delivered it via

Spoiler:
song and dance. He even has forceghost Yoda around to make it a duet.
Silver Crusade

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AdmiralAckbar wrote:

Spoiler:
;_;

*hugs*

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:

The problem isn't physics its internal consistency

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
How much funding do they have to replace that many cruisers?
Silver Crusade

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

The problem isn't physics its internal consistency

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Yeah... bombs are cheaper. Like a lot. And can be made faster. By a lot.

Also goes to those above calling out the bombers they had in the opening. Um, they might have used those than the other Wings cause... they didn't have any?


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hyperspace:
On the other hand, if hyperspace drive is small enough and cheap enough to put into escape shuttles, you can just build hyperspace missiles.

Heh. I found the movie to be entertaining, but most of the complaints about the movie are completely right.

Spoiler:
Hell, Poe didn't just lose all of the bombers and most of his pilots on that initial fight; he showed no sign of remorse or regret or even introspection over it.

He just lost most of his soldiers (along with a lot of material the Resistance cannot actually replace), and he didn't even care. He treats his entire force as expendable when they're literally irreplaceable.

After a point I honestly wanted Poe to be executed. They had to deliberately make the acting Vice-Admiral obtuse and unlikable just to make Poe remotely sympathetic.

Poe's arc amounted to him actually showing a basic bit of sense in the 11th hour and realizing that hurling all of his troops into a meat grinder wasn't actually accomplishing anything (though he didn't actually have a Plan B, either, so his plan boiled down to Die Now or Die Later).

Finn and Rose's arc was arguably even worse, since their efforts to help actually led to the ruin of the escape plan.

I'm not even sure what the point of Finn's arc was, since he actually repeated the whole scared ex-soldier -> proud rebel fighter arc that he had back in Force Awakens.

Now that I think about it, I'm actually kind of surprised I like this movie.

I suppose that's because of Luke, Rey, and Kylo. (And Finn still being perfectly likeable even if his arc was terrible.)

Kylo is no Darth Vader, but he's a much, much better Anakin than Anakin ever was.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

The problem isn't physics its internal consistency

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Who needs funds? You have a bunch of heavily armed fanatics.

Silver Crusade

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

The problem isn't physics its internal consistency

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **
Who needs funds? You have a bunch of heavily armed fanatics.

You need funds to be heavily armed.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Spoiler:
Finn didn’t quite make it to “proud rebel fighter” in TFA.

His whole reason for going to Starkiller base at the end is to save Rey, doing rebellion stuff is just a side gig for him (and then he gets mortally wounded for his efforts)

That carries through to this film, where he’s more concerned with making sure Rey doesn’t get drawn in to this terrible situation than he is with helping the resistance escape. That’s why he’s bailing in the escape pod, not because he’s a coward.

His arc is probably best described as learning what it means to be a resistance fighter, figuring out what he’s actually fighting for.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Who needs funds? You have a bunch of heavily armed fanatics.

Not for long if you keep that strategy up.

Sovereign Court

question:
Anyone else get a samurai feel out of Luke's role in LJ?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Who needs funds? You have a bunch of heavily armed fanatics.
Not for long if you keep that strategy up.

The more of us they strike down the more of us there are.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

You know ships can't become force ghosts, right?


Ghost ships are a thing! If you thought Jack Sparrow was good with a sword wait till i get him a light saber.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
You know ships can't become force ghosts, right?

That depends on whether Star Wars' hyperspace works similar to Cowboy Bebop's hyperspace gateways as seen in "Gateway Shuffle".

Shadow Lodge

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Spoiler:
Seems we have a force ghost of our own here.


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After having seen it again I noticed something.
Besides the complaints I have with physics, established canon, pointless and/or unlikable characters, and various poorly-done bits... it has some issues with its theming.

Spoiler:

The "Luke" portion of things (and plenty of others) are all about duality. Balance. Light/dark, life/death, creation/destruction, pick your metaphor. The "true" Jedi mosaic was half light, half dark. The Jedi need to go away because they were not in balance. Luke failed because he saw the presence of darkness in Kylo as proof of failure (rather than an internal balance.) The lightsaber is split between Kylo/Rey. You need to let go of the past you know to embrace the truth that pure light is not everything.

The "Poe" section (and the last bit of Finn/Rose), though, resolves by turning Poe away from the classic Dark Side approach of "kill the other guy harder" to the Light. "Protecting what we love, instead of fighting what we hate." Seem familiar? How about "a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never attack." Poe's failure of an epiphany isn't even "hey, what we've got here can't do the job; cut the losses." It's "no, turn back, you'll die if you do this." It was phrased in a way that (from my certain point of view) put him solidly on the side of passivity, pure protection, rather than any kind of balance.

Kylo, meanwhile, is off quoting a certain hyena. "You're still holding on! Let it all die... light, dark, Jedi, Sith, Rebels... not my stuff though, I want to keep that."


shaventalz wrote:

After having seen it again I noticed something.

Besides the complaints I have with physics, established canon, pointless and/or unlikable characters, and various poorly-done bits... it has some issues with its theming.
** spoiler omitted **

That's what I am talking about when I say it was assembled in sections by committee. The theming was discordant. Parts didn't jive well together, let alone the movie didn't jive well with previous movies. Which makes me frustrated with all the supposed easter eggs. Yeah, I appreciate the effort to plant them..but its kinda pointless when you ignore other important points from the past.

Seriously, it hurts my brain the Hollywood brain trust skips dialog in favour of more bang and more CGI Puffins.


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Haters gonna hate.


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Freehold DM wrote:
Haters gonna hate.

I hated 1/3 the movie loved 1/3 and was meh about 1/3rd.

I'm bringing balance back...


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Raise your hand if your fragile sense of masculinity was trigger pulled into a heightened state of overcriticalism as your ego tried to compensate for your wounded id!


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Do tentacles count? Does a hand of glory qualify?


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1d4 ⇒ 1 goblin babies want to know if it has to be our own hands, or can we raise humanoid hands that just so happen to have recently come into our possession? {hides freshly sharpened cleaver}


Snoke

Spoiler:
Such a waste of time. He felt like he was reliant on the audience's previous knowledge of the Emperor to seem like a badass. He did some parlor tricks at the end, but overall, he just always felt too cartoonish to me. A certain amount of cartoonish villainry is okay, it's Star Wars, but he felt like nothing but cartoon.

Honestly, I would have liked a more secure roll for someone like Hux. Or even an old general who left the Resistance. A bad guy with soaring rhetoric who wasn't "bad" just to be bad, but had a vision of a peaceful, prosperous galaxy, but he was willing to crush anyone who tried to stop him from enforcing at the end of a barrel.

Snoke's only purpose in this film was to facilitate Ren and Rey having a conversation. There could have been more interesting ways for that to happen. Ren killing him and taking over is moderately interesting, except Ren clearly isn't a good leader and will grind whatever he controls into dust. Like, you don't need to confront Kylo Ren, just run away until he breaks all his toys by himself.

TriOmegaZero wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

The problem isn't physics its internal consistency

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

You don't actually need cruisers. Just attach a hyperdrive to a big rock.

Imagine that tactic, and using a ship like the Millennium Falcon to lure an entire fleet into an asteroid belt. The empire doesn't know which rocks are actually hyperspace bombs waiting to target them, but to shoot them, you have to get in range of their hyperspace attack first.

Scarab Sages

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Irontruth wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

The problem isn't physics its internal consistency

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **
You don't actually need cruisers. Just attach a hyperdrive to a big rock.

Or to super hot plasma extracted directly from a star. Which is how they killed the Hosnian system in TFA. Hyperspaced fire.


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Freehold DM wrote:
Haters gonna hate.

The only thing I really hate is sand. It coarse and rough and gets everywhere.

I actually came out of the theater thinking it was entertaining. If I had been part of an exit poll I would have given it an 75%. And to be fair, if given one now would still give it a 70%.

I just feel there was a lot of wasted potential.

I felt the same way about Force awakens, and slightly the same way about rogue one. However, repeated viewings of Rogue One make me enjoy it more. The only thing really missing from the last half of that movie is more Y-wing action.

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