Star Wars The Last Jedi


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Liberty's Edge

Did we establish we can do away with spoiler tags now?

Liberty's Edge

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Mahorfeus wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Grand Lodge

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Marc Radle wrote:
Did we establish we can do away with spoiler tags now?

No.

We don't establish anything, just add more arguments.


BNW:

Spoiler:
You keep mentioning an escape pod that leaves and comes back, but I don't know what you're referring to.

Finn and Rose take a shuttle. I guess you could argue that "why didn't they use the shuttle to evacuate?" but I can't even begin to imagine how many hundreds of trips that would take. One shuttle launching and immediately jumping to hyperspace is unlikely to be noticed (or, if it is noticed, it's already gone), but the same shuttle doing it hundreds of times probably would be.

They return to the fleet in a cloaked ship and with the assistance of a skilled thief. Even then, their goal is Snoke's ship, not reuniting with the Rebel ships.

Rey takes an escape pod from the Falcon and gets picked up by Snoke's ship, and then steals Snoke's escape pod and gets picked up by the Falcon.

At no point in the movie do we see an escape pod enter hyperspace, much less leave and come back.


Kalshane wrote:

BNW:

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
If your persnicket meter is going to trip on the difference between an escape pod and a shuttle used to escape in this movie should have left your brain a pile of chunky salsa splattered over the popcorn over 6 movie rows.

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Transylvanian Tadpole wrote:
** spoiler omitted **...

I utterly loathe the Porgs, but otherwise... more or less my take, overall- although I liked it more than the blatant C&P of Force Awakens.


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Some inclusion of the porgs was neccesary, unless you wanted space puffins. They were all over the island and not really removable.


That’s the coolest thing about the porgs to me.


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FURDUCK SQUADON 4 LIFE

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

There were so many birds flying around on the island while the movie was shot.
They added the Porgs so they wouldn't have to edit them all out.
I think it adds a bit of something to the movie.

Just in case:
They had less screen time than Finn and Rose's ride, but about the same amount as the Crystal Foxes.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


** spoiler omitted **

I'm not trying to be persnickety. An escape pod and a shuttle are two very different things in the Star Wars universe with two different purposes. Ships tend to carry a large number of escape pods (since their entire purpose is to escape a damaged vessel, much like life boats in our world, and they generally don't take up a lot of space) whereas a shuttle is meant as transport between larger vessels and/or locations. In Star Wars they seem to seat between 2 and a dozen crew/passengers and have some level of hyperspace capability. The number of shuttles assigned to a ship seems to vary wildly based on ship size and function.

Spoiler:

How many shuttles there were in the Rebel fleet is unclear. If there were a large number of them, could they have been used to enact a different plan than what Admiral Holdo had concocted? Sure. But first she would have to know that those shuttles wouldn't be tracked by the First Order through hyperspace and picked off. Which would have required Poe, Finn and Rose to inform her that they had figured out how the FO was tracking them.


Kalshane wrote:
Stuff

Spoiler:

Its not an either or thing. You can get some people off via shuttle and then handle the rest with the crazy low speed plan.

You do not need to know that they can't be tracked. Land and blend in with the populace. Rose and poe were able to do this for a bit despite being absolutely terrible at it. Hyperspace tracking will tell you that the ship came to Casino planet, or water slide planet, or farmville planet. Or spiritual retreat planet. It won't tell you where the rebel went after that. If they need to divert a ship to look for you after that.. even better.

The order HAS existing and known trackning technology for cloaked shuttles. basing your plan around them inexplicably not using it is while avoiding a plan based around something they MIGHT have is headdesk worthy.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Some inclusion of the porgs was neccesary, unless you wanted space puffins. They were all over the island and not really removable.

And thus, instead of just making them something alien and present, they turned them into a cutesy marketing element.

Banthas weren't cute. Tauntauns weren't cute. Salacious Crumb wasn't cute (even if he does remind me of my dog more than somewhat).

Some form of puffin masking is one thing.

Big-eyed cat-faced "buy the plushie!" is something else entirely.


It is possible to CGI a puffin into something else.

There is no CGI filter strong enough for puffin level cute however.


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Cole Deschain wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Some inclusion of the porgs was neccesary, unless you wanted space puffins. They were all over the island and not really removable.

And thus, instead of just making them something alien and present, they turned them into a cutesy marketing element.

Banthas weren't cute. Tauntauns weren't cute. Salacious Crumb wasn't cute (even if he does remind me of my dog more than somewhat).

Some form of puffin masking is one thing.

Big-eyed cat-faced "buy the plushie!" is something else entirely.

you do realize tauntaun plushies are a thing you can buy?

In fact we bought non cute tauntauns and wampas?

The money goes directly to lucasfilm, whether it is cute or not.

You know how marketing works, right?

Your star wars collection fattened lucasfilms wallet jist as readily as anything else.


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If you think merchandising is a new thing..


I think my favorite scene of the movie was one involving Rey and Kylo Ren.

Spoiler:
Because of the way that the movie built up Rey and Ben’s relationship over the movie, Ben’s offer to have Rey join him felt like it had actual emotional weight. Luke’s rejection of joining Darth Vader and Sheevy P in the original trilogy felt like a no-brained. Of course he's not going to join the obviously evil villains.

But I found myself believing that Rey had genuinely come to empathize with Ben, and even see him as a friend. That lent that scene an emotional weight to it that Luke saying no to the Emperor lacked (IMO, of course).


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Ventnor wrote:

I think my favorite scene of the movie was one involving Rey and Kylo Ren.

** spoiler omitted **

I did kind of feel, even back in the day, that the attempt to get Luke to join Vader was more some kind of Dark side manipulation than a normal emotional appeal - "Give in to your anger (at us) and join with us" makes no sense. Give in to your anger, let the dark side corrupt you and you'll be vulnerable to the Emperor's control does.

I assume Snoke turning Kylo was something like that. Once you turn to the dark side, you're vulnerable to manipulation by those stronger in the dark in a way that you normally wouldn't be. You've given them a way in that they wouldn't have otherwise.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Becoming a crazy space-hermit is literally the only Jedi retirement plan there is.
Apparently decades of telling people to suppress all of their emotions and never form a human attachment to anyone isn't good for your long term psycological health.

There was a cartoon somewhere that parodied this. Yoda tells Anakin to cast off emotion,attachments, etc. The result is Anakin goes crazy and all darkside. Cue Yoda training Luke and Yoda saying, 'Kid, do yourself a favor and get some hookers.'

Silver Crusade

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Spoiler:
The plot can't be "we have to keep going" while you have an escape pod that can can evacuate people and come back but inexplicably isn't.

Luke force projecting makes sense. Luke Watching one sun set while watching another one rise is a cool scene. But they don't work together.
Whats the point? Why not have him actually there if he's going to die?


Finally watched it so can comment :-). Note, I mostly agree with you.

Spoiler:

They did point out that they were very low in HyperJumpFuel. If one assumes that larger ships use a lot more than smaller ships its just about possible that there was enough to get the one transport away and back but NOT enough to get multiple transports away.

As to the reason that Luke didn't just come, that whole barrage of gun fire at him would have been more than a bit deadly :-). He was FAR more effective as an image than he could have been in real life.

I liked his ending. A deliberate (and necessary) sacrifice to save the remnants of the rebellion. Obviously we're going to ignore the physics problems involved in doing something like that over presumably 10s of thousands of light years :-)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Freehold DM wrote:
you do realize tauntaun plushies are a thing you can buy?

Now. Decades after the film was released.

Quote:
In fact we bought non cute tauntauns and wampas?

Now. Decades after the film was released.

Quote:

The money goes directly to lucasfilm, whether it is cute or not.

You know how marketing works, right?

And did you know the sky is occasionally blue and the ocean is sometimes wet?

I am abundantly well acquainted with Spaceballs: The Flamethrower.

The Porgs, however, were cutesy for cutsey's sake. And thus, I loathe them. Them and those damn racetrack things from that miserable casino sequence.

Quote:
Your star wars collection fattened lucasfilms wallet jist as readily as anything else.

... What collection?


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Cole Deschain wrote:
The Porgs, however, were cutesy for cutsey's sake. And thus, I loathe them. Them and those damn racetrack things from that miserable casino sequence.

Yeah, they were cutsey, but they were mostly background and a couple of scenes designed for laughs. They didn't play a major dramatic role in defeating the bad guys.

Didn't bother me.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Cole Deschain wrote:


Now. Decades after the film was released.

You could apparently get a plush Chewbacca back in 1977.

And you could always get action figures of the wampa and tauntauns.


Cole Deschain wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
you do realize tauntaun plushies are a thing you can buy?

Now. Decades after the film was released.

Quote:
In fact we bought non cute tauntauns and wampas?

Now. Decades after the film was released.

Quote:

The money goes directly to lucasfilm, whether it is cute or not.

You know how marketing works, right?

And did you know the sky is occasionally blue and the ocean is sometimes wet?

I am abundantly well acquainted with Spaceballs: The Flamethrower.

The Porgs, however, were cutesy for cutsey's sake. And thus, I loathe them. Them and those damn racetrack things from that miserable casino sequence.

Quote:
Your star wars collection fattened lucasfilms wallet jist as readily as anything else.
... What collection?

the tauntaun toy i bought as a kid begs to differ.

I still want a real life one.


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And the ewok I bought as a kid has something to say as well.

Mainly how soft he is.

Miss that guy.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I bought a Porg you for my friends daughters for Christmas. It coos, and trundles around flapping its little wings. They loved running around with it, and patting its soft fur and when it was nap time loved to cuddle it.

Porgs are good actually.


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Spoiler:

Cruiser: "Hey emo ren, We need you to pull back we can't support you at this distance

Ren: "What do you mean?

"Well you're unsupported. You can't fight without support.

"... I just blew up their headquarters, and took out their ships

Fighter 1 "well actually you hesitated and I *gurgle*

Ren *force choke*

Fighter 1 "never... noticed how pretty all the stars are out here.

Ren "anyway, we're doing fine without this "support"

Cruiser "but.. you're unsupported"

Ren " They don't even have external guns. And you don't have external guns anymore. What support are you providing?

Cruiser "but... you're unsupported. Emotionally.

Ren "OH!....." flies back to the cruiser.


thejeff wrote:


I assume Snoke turning Kylo was something like that. Once you turn to the dark side, you're vulnerable to manipulation by those stronger in the dark in a way that you normally wouldn't be. You've given them a way in that they wouldn't have otherwise.

I'm not particularly convinced Snoke was involved in any way. For all that Luke and Leia are on a first(?) name basis with the guy, it's entirely possible than he and Emo Boy first met in a Dark Side bar a couple years after the whole temple fiasco. Between tears and complaining about his mean old uncle, Snoke offered him a job in his super-gigantic fleet of doom, and that was that.


Voss wrote:
thejeff wrote:


I assume Snoke turning Kylo was something like that. Once you turn to the dark side, you're vulnerable to manipulation by those stronger in the dark in a way that you normally wouldn't be. You've given them a way in that they wouldn't have otherwise.
I'm not particularly convinced Snoke was involved in any way. For all that Luke and Leia are on a first(?) name basis with the guy, it's entirely possible than he and Emo Boy first met in a Dark Side bar a couple years after the whole temple fiasco. Between tears and complaining about his mean old uncle, Snoke offered him a job in his super-gigantic fleet of doom, and that was that.

I thought there were at least hints that Snoke was directly involved.


In The Force Awakens, during the conversation in the Resistance HQ.

Leia wrote:
"It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the Dark Side."

Silver Crusade

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John Napier 698 wrote:
In The Force Awakens, during the conversation in the Resistance HQ.
Leia wrote:
"It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the Dark Side."

1) When something like this happens parents pretty much need to blame somebody or something. So I'd take this with a grain of salt anyway

2) For better or for worse its pretty obvious that we can't rely all that much on The Force Awakens to explain things in The Last Jedi. The two movies really don't fit together all that well.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
John Napier 698 wrote:
In The Force Awakens, during the conversation in the Resistance HQ.
Leia wrote:
"It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the Dark Side."

But was that true, or only what they thought?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
John Napier 698 wrote:
In The Force Awakens, during the conversation in the Resistance HQ.
Leia wrote:
"It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the Dark Side."
But was that true, or only what they thought?

I wouldn't know, TOZ. I can only go with what I see on the screen.


pauljathome wrote:
John Napier 698 wrote:
In The Force Awakens, during the conversation in the Resistance HQ.
Leia wrote:
"It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the Dark Side."

1) When something like this happens parents pretty much need to blame somebody or something. So I'd take this with a grain of salt anyway

2) For better or for worse its pretty obvious that we can't rely all that much on The Force Awakens to explain things in The Last Jedi. The two movies really don't fit together all that well.

Given that it's what we have and though it could obviously be contradicted by whatever comes up in the next movie, I'm sticking with what we've got for now.

And it also fits with general Star Wars lore and particularly with the Vader parallel.


pauljathome wrote:
John Napier 698 wrote:
In The Force Awakens, during the conversation in the Resistance HQ.
Leia wrote:
"It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the Dark Side."

1) When something like this happens parents pretty much need to blame somebody or something. So I'd take this with a grain of salt anyway

2) For better or for worse its pretty obvious that we can't rely all that much on The Force Awakens to explain things in The Last Jedi. The two movies really don't fit together all that well.

Sorry, my last post on this..even if the movie doesn't fit well with the original trilogy, the god forsakken prequels or the now defunct EU, you would have thought it would/should at least fit with the movie that just preceded it? Guess Not.

For example, they make a big deal about Kylo Rens facial regen several shots of how its healing..but apparently the bowcaster impact crater in his abs was just a pesky flesh wound. No need to address that,.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:


Force pasteurization. Yup. its a power.

I find people lack of faith in pasteurization..disturbing.


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The Thing From Another World wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:


Force pasteurization. Yup. its a power.

I find people lack of faith in pasteurization..disturbing.

Not nearly as disturbing as pasteurization through faith.


Black Dougal wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
John Napier 698 wrote:
In The Force Awakens, during the conversation in the Resistance HQ.
Leia wrote:
"It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the Dark Side."

1) When something like this happens parents pretty much need to blame somebody or something. So I'd take this with a grain of salt anyway

2) For better or for worse its pretty obvious that we can't rely all that much on The Force Awakens to explain things in The Last Jedi. The two movies really don't fit together all that well.

Sorry, my last post on this..even if the movie doesn't fit well with the original trilogy, the god forsakken prequels or the now defunct EU, you would have thought it would/should at least fit with the movie that just preceded it? Guess Not.

For example, they make a big deal about Kylo Rens facial regen several shots of how its healing..but apparently the bowcaster impact crater in his abs was just a pesky flesh wound. No need to address that,.

they didnt address Luke's hand being shot up or leia getting wounded at endor either.


Very True. Its easy to nit pick this thing to death, so I'm going to stop. It's a decent movie. It should be, given the resources behind it. It's not the Star Wars Trilogy I would have made, but I guess I'll just have to write my own screenplay.


@ Browman:

Spoiler:

Browman wrote:

Finn's storyline was basically pointless. Rose was annoying and basically made every scene she was in worse.

Rose did two things for Finn: kept him from running away in their first encounter, and later telling him how the underdogs win. He''' be a more effective Resistance fighter for having met her.

Browman wrote:
Hux caught the rebellion with their pants down and somehow his grand plan was to make them think they escaped so he could keep chasing them and lose a huge ship in the process.

I believe his plan was to gain information about locations the rebels felt safe running to, and also to consume their fuel supply. The latter very nearly worked.

Browman wrote:
Rey's parents being no one was dumb, why did we waste all that time in the force awakens if it is irrelevant.

Rey's parents being no one makes perfect sense. All this mystique has been built up around the "Skywalker bloodline", but think back on the number of Force users we've seen over the course of eight episodes, Jedi, Sith and trainees. Think about how many generations of Force users there have been, throughout the galaxy, even before Episode I. Out of all those thousands, how many were Skywalkers that we know of? Four. So who were the parents of all those others? Nobodies.

Browman wrote:
Luke dying made no sense to me, the reveal that he was projecting was one of the best parts of the movie and to me was entirely undone by him dying afterwards.

He'd cut himself off from the Force for years, and shortly after reconnecting he pulls off a tangible mental projections across who knows how many light years? That's got to be taxing, but it's not clear that it killed him. He may have simply decided his purpose was accomplished, and "spread himself upon the wind", like Apollo in the Star Trek episode Who Mourns For Adonis? He had already decided to die, after all.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Spoiler:
He was absolutely right, as the plucky hero always is when they disobey orders.

No. Just no. When you have a uniform and a rank you do not get to willfully disobey orders simply because you think you have a better idea. The fact that many of his fellow soldiers died isn't the problem. The fact that it wasn't up to him to make that choice, is.


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Damon Griffin wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
No. Just no.

Spoiler:
Which is perfectly fine in terms of Leia chewing him out.

But trying to make that be true in terms of the story would have required not getting to show a pretty explosion, which they didn't do.
When the story tries to teach him "don't do that again" it doesn't work when he absolutely should do that again, or everyone would be dead.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
John Napier 698 wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
John Napier 698 wrote:
In The Force Awakens, during the conversation in the Resistance HQ.
Leia wrote:
"It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the Dark Side."
But was that true, or only what they thought?
I wouldn't know, TOZ. I can only go with what I see on the screen.

You're better than 90% of humanity then.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Spoiler:
Okay, so your master tried to kill you. you kill him. And...

Now need to slaughter all of his students before you take your friends and run. You can't just go run off somewhere? Conquer a planet and rule it with debauchery? Nope. Need to become a genocidal maniac deliberately trying to hit the villain checklist.

He didn't kill all of them. He took some with him, trained them, and they became the Knights of Ren.


Damon Griffin wrote:


He didn't kill all of them. He took some with him, trained them, and they became the Knights of Ren.

So they're dead from a certain point of view...

More seriously,

probably covered in the last movie:
You're being ridiculous. He killed a bunch of lukes students, grabbed his own disciples and ran off to become a genocidal planet killer. Quibling over the use of "all" doesn't serve any purpose.


baron arem heshvaun wrote:
How about this then, how can a flagship that size or advanced not have shielding that would not obliterate anything the size of the Raddus on impact?

You know perfectly well that force = mass * acceleration. Even for small mass relative to the FO ship, the Raddus would have had incredible acceleration -- all ships seem to jump to light speed within a few ship lengths -- and it's hardly surprising that the resulting force would have been more than enough to overcome any shielding.


baron arem heshvaun wrote:


It’s EU now, but it was Canon from 1983 for a long time, in the Star Wars comic, three Star Destroyers, one being a significlaly larger Admirality Class Destroyer, in a grave miscalculation, micro jump out of Lightspeed and disintegrate upon the Executor’s shields, overloading the Vader ship’s shields but barely scratching the giant.

If you are jumping out of lightspeed, you don't have the tremendous acceleration you do jumping in.


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Damon Griffin wrote:
space physics stuff...

in game out of game stuff:
The problem there is if that's how the universe works, why wasn't the death star destroyed by a coffee can moving at light speed, which would be enough to obliterate a moon?

Space ship battles make no sense from our world perspective. You suspend that disbelief and go along with how the story tells you it works or implies that it works. There are giant space ship armada battles therefore there's some reason for them to be there.

Which is why its risky from a story telling perspective to yank the audiences suspension of disbelief out for one (admittedly very cool) scene. There's either a reason this doesn't work or a reason it's not standard operating procedure.

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