Star Wars The Last Jedi


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

This. Was. The. Best. Star. War.

Spoiler:
Quote:

Poe is just a mouthy captain who got the bombers killed.

Poe’s arc was to learn patience and take some g$*#*~n responsibility. He learns that lesson because he messes up.

And took out a dreadnaught in the process. In exchange for they're not even y wing pieces of junk. Cheap at twice the price.

If the movies were trying to make it appear as if the first time in forever, the authority saying to retreat was right and the plucky pilot disobeying orders was in the wrong then they didn't do a good job of it.

Quote:
Poe also revealed the secret plan to the First Order almost as soon as he learned it by blabbing it over an open comm to the people he knew were on the enemy ship.

And they were on the enemy ship because.... du du du dah...the admiral apparently had no plan to get anyone out alive so people started enacting their own. Secrecy has value yes, but thats what happens when people don't know what your plans are.

Quote:
She didn’t know they had a battering ram, or that the galaxy wouldn’t respond.

They had a dreadnaught. I think a canopener is a given.

Quote:
She took a desperate action, one that only worked because Hux didn’t blows her out of the sky when she started turning the ship around. Anyway, everything was in the movie.

I know you're trying but the explanations don't do anything to make me dislike that third of the movie any less.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Spoiler:
The first scene is literally: Poe’s heroics get people killed. Leia immediately demoted him. It’s right there. In the movie.

All Poe is really doing while Amelyn Holdo is trying to save the resistance is getting in the way of the plan. She’s his commander, and he is consistently ignoring orders because he thinks he knows better. The plan was to get people to the planet with bombardment shields and hopefully vehicles to fight a ground war if needed. BUT IT HAD TO BE KEPT SECRET FROM THE ENEMY FOR IT TO WORK. THERE WAS A DESERTER PROBLEM.

The arc is about Poe learning to listen, to value the lives he will be responsible for.

I think if you didnt like Vice Admiral Amelyn Holdo, or the plan, even though they explain why they do what they do in the movie. Then what’s your plan? Fight a superior ship? They can’t run away they’re being tracked, and not enough fuel.

The plan falls apart only after Poe calls his friends who are aboard the ship trying to shooting them down. Poe thought Holdo was a coward, but there wasn’t a good solution, only a hard solution. Because in this movie they are teaching you that it takes more than thrilling heroics. You have to be willing to put in the work.

Also literally every rebel had no idea what that battering ram gun was, Finn did because he was First Order. So they didn’t expect a can opener.

This. Was. The. Best. Star. War.

Grand Lodge

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Dudemeister, typing that at the end of every post you make with a period after each word comes off as fairly antagonistic.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

This. Was. The. Best. Star. War.

Again just saying something doesn't make it true. This. Is. The. Worst. Star. Wars. Movie. Outside. The. Prequals. That has a much authority as your statement.

Spoiler:
What orders? She says nothing when she takes over. As far as anyone can tell there is no plan. She seems unable to make a decision. As soon as Poe finds out what the plan actually is, he is totally on board. Bad leaders keep people in the dark, especially in bad situations like this. The admiral's bad leadership caused everything that led her plan to fail.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Browman wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

This. Was. The. Best. Star. War.

Again just saying something doesn't make it true. This. Is. The. Worst. Star. Wars. Movie. Outside. The. Prequals. That has a much authority as your statement.

** spoiler omitted **

Sorry, couldn’t hear you not pay attention to anything I wrote under the spoilers.

This is the best Star War.


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There seems to be little middle ground on this movie. Most people seem to either really love it or really hate it.

It's almost as if it's a deliberate Imperial/First Order plot: 1) wrap viewers in copper wire and/or Kyber crystals, b) set half spinning clockwise and the other half counterclockwise, and π) use power generated to power the First Order superweapon appearing in Star Wars IX.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

This. Was. The. Best. Star. War.

Spoiler:

Quote:
It’s right there. In the movie.

es, I saw it was in the movie. I wasn't asleep, i'm not ignoring it, in fact i have mentioned it several times.

Its right here. In my posts.

Quote:
The first scene is literally: Poe’s heroics get people killed. Leia immediately demoted him.

Oh my god, we can't have people dying. What is this a war?

Yes. he got people killed. He also took out a dreadnaught. He was absolutely right, as the plucky hero always is when they disobey orders. They would have lost far more lives if that thing had stayed in operation.

Quote:
All Poe is really doing while Amelyn Holdo is trying to save the resistance is getting in the way of the plan.

A plan he knows nothing about. Because She's not telling anyone about it. Despite having little reason to do so. Not none but little.

Quote:
She’s his commander, and he is consistently ignoring orders because he thinks he knows better.

And he did.

Quote:
The plan was to get people to the planet with bombardment shields and hopefully vehicles to fight a ground war if needed. BUT IT HAD TO BE KEPT SECRET FROM THE ENEMY FOR IT TO WORK. THERE WAS A DESERTER PROBLEM.

A deserter problem exacerbated by not having an apparent plan.

Its a rebellion. You by definition have troops that are a little more independent minded than most...

Quote:
The arc is about Poe learning to listen, to value the lives he will be responsible for.

Just because he spent the lives doesn't mean he doesn't value them.

Quote:
I think if you didnt like Vice Admiral Amelyn Holdo, or the plan, even though they explain why they do what they do in the movie. Then what’s your plan? Fight a superior ship? They can’t run away they’re being tracked, and not enough fuel.

Once again, tell people the plan. (or at least your pilots)

Or get people in the escape pods before hand and tell them they'll be let out. Not you know, just waiting to die. Because if I thought we were just waiting to die, I'd be in an escape pod no matter HOW many times i had to get cattle prodded.

Quote:
The plan falls apart only after Poe calls his friends who are aboard the ship trying to shooting them down. Poe thought Holdo was a coward, but there wasn’t a good solution, only a hard solution. Because in this movie they are teaching you that it takes more than thrilling heroics. You have to be willing to put in the work.

It fails. Hard.

Poe's heroics taking out the dreadnaught muddle the message. By far the better argument is that he was right.

Admiral Holdo's stalling tactic is absolutely ridiculous and should not have worked. At all. Look, i'm perfectly capable of suspending my disbelief that in a universe spanning fight a space wizard with a laser sword is somehow relevant to the fight. But the idea that a warp capable ship can't get ahead of the love boat plodding along is patently absurd.

Fins interrupted heroic sacrifice was the right call to make and he should have had a chance to do it. 50ish? other people died to buy a few seconds of time, his death would have bought hours. So the lesson here is.. don't give your life for the cause if you're a point of view character but DO do it if you're a nameless mook?

Quote:
Also literally every rebel had no idea what that battering ram gun was, Finn did because he was First Order. So they didn’t expect a can opener.

There are laser swords that can open that vault. A pair of flagships wouldn't have something that can do the same?


My mom is taking me to see it... We'll see if she likes it. She didn't much care for Rogue One if that's any indication...


shaventalz wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
this was a direct call to star wars rebels where the same plea was made and ships showed up out of nowhere

BigNorseWolf wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

This. Was. The. Best. Star. War.

** spoiler omitted **

WHAT DID YOU SAY

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

This. Was. The. Best. Star. War.

** spoiler omitted **...

Spoiler:
Big Norse Wolf, I disagree with every single interpretation you have of that plotline of the film. The movie explicitly shows why the plan had to be secret, why the rebels had to hold out hope, and why Poe needed to learn a lesson which in the end he learned.

Every rebuttal you have made stands in direct opposition to the text, and message of the movie.

You might have watched the movie, but your problems with it boil down to the idea that Poe is perfect and didn’t need to grow or change as a character into the leader the Rebellion needs him to be. That he should fight to kill what he hates rather than save what he loves.

I’m sorry BNW. I know I come across as combative, condescending and outright rude. This Star War means a lot to me and I’ve been seeing harsher criticism of this film than it rightly deserves. But this Star War has the most beautiful, well thought out ethos of any Star War. It uses every scene, to reinforce the arcs of these good kids that are the New Hope for the galaxy.

Vice Admiral Holdo is a hero, of a different stripe than Poe Dameron, and Poe Dameron is now a greater hero still because he can temper his daring with thought. The Rebellion survives because of Holdo. Dameron is the leader he needs to be because of her.

Grand Lodge

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

This. Was. The. Best. Star. War.

** spoiler omitted **...
** spoiler omitted **

spoiler:
Sorry, I must've missed it, but why did the plan have to remain a secret? Seemingly having no plan and just running out of fuel is certainly worse than letting people know your good plan that allows you to all escape to the rebel base. It's not as if they had reason to think their was a spy or anything. Letting people think they're doomed is a terrible plan and shows complete ineptitude in leadership. She practically insured a mutiny attempt.

And once again, I liked the movie alot. But it had some weak points and that was one of them.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

This. Was. The. Best. Star. War.

** spoiler omitted **...
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
There is no reason to assume there isn’t a spy. Also they didn’t want any chance communication to be overheard. Remember, as soon as Poe found out the plan, he blabbed it on his communicator to his pals, who were on the enemy ship and that’s what allowed the First Order to figure out the secret plan. So Vice Admiral Holdo was right all along to keep things secret. Even knowing a second, risky plan was happening simultaneously.
Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Spoiler:

They barely took out a dreadnaught. All but one of the bombers got wrecked pretty much instantly, and the last one only pulled off it's bombing run because Rose's sister got EXTREMELY lucky (remember that whole thing with the button and the ladder?). Yes, it worked out for them, but not because it was a good plan. It was objectively a terrible plan, that worked through pure happenstance. The whole point was to play to Poe's hubris and set up his eventual fall. He needs to win for the wrong reasons to make the later loss for those same reasons sting. That's not a muddled message, that's an arc.

As to Holdo keeping the plan secret, remember she doesn't know how the First Order is tracking them through Hyperspace. It shouldn't be possible. We find out later it's new tech, but Holdo doesn't know that. What if it's a spy relaying their coordinates? Plus, as Dudemeister points out, there's always the chance that people will desert and get captured (it's enough of a problem that they have Rose guarding the escape pods), or try to sell out the rebellion to save themselves. So she keeps the plan need-to-know. Poe doesn't need to know.

We can sympathize with Poe adopting his own plan based on the imperfect knowledge he has, but again, that doesn't make him right. Sometimes you have to trust the highly decorated admiral that Leia puts in charge to know what she's doing.

Also remember the initial plan wasn't to use the base on Crait to withstand an assault. The plan was to sneak away from the ship and hide in the base, letting the FO pass by, and then call their friends in the outer rim for evac before the FO realized their mistake. They were trying to avoid fighting entirely, so the question of whether or not the base could withstand a ground assault is irrelevant. It wasn't until Poe screwed up the plan by blabbing about it over the comm that the plan became "hope the door holds until reinforcements arrive."

As to the FO jumping a ship in front of them--remember, the FO doesn't know that the rebels are going somewhere. They think they're just running away. Jumping in front of them doesn't help you because they're lighter and faster than you are, and all they have to do to avoid you is turn. Hell, you can even tell when another ship is preparing to jump to light speed, so the rebels can start their maneuver before you even make your jump, putting you way off course.

I'm also not sure what the minimum Hyperdrive jump distance is. Han pulled off some very impressive precise Hyperdrive jumps in TFA, but everybody else seemed to think that trying that sort of thing was absolutely insane, and I think we're supposed to understand that Han only pulled them off because he's just that good. For your stock standard FO pilot, it might be the case that the shortest possible jump still puts them farther away from the rebels than they'd be if they just kept following them.

Also...

Spoiler:
Rose was great, and anyone who says otherwise is just wrong. Rose is the best Star War.


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Spoiler:

Quote:
The movie explicitly shows why the plan had to be secret

Because someone trying to enact their own plan might mess it up.

Which they wouldn't have been trying if someone had told them there was a plan.

Quote:
why Poe needed to learn a lesson which in the end he learned.

I get that the movie was TRYING to do that. But you have to realize that it failed at it.

Give me one argument why poe was wrong to press the attack. Why was the plucky flyboy routine a bad call either when poe did it or when Flynn did it?

Quote:
Every rebuttal you have made stands in direct opposition to the text, and message of the movie.

And absolutely in line with what actually happened, and that is a serious problem with a film. The message you send is supposed to go along with what happened. This runs counter to it. Disobeying the order worked. Enacting his own plan was a direct consequence of not being told the plan.

Quote:
You might have watched the movie, but your problems with it boil down to the idea that Poe is perfect and didn’t need to grow or change as a character into the leader the Rebellion needs him to be. That he should fight to kill what he hates rather than save what he loves.

This is absolute codswallop.

Its not that poe is perfect. I have more feelings about Rye bread than poe. Its that he was right. Explain how a bunch of bombers would have had more impact at any point in the movie than they did at the beginning taking out the dreadnaught?

Replay the movie with the dreadnaught there. The general turns around to make her heroic sacrifice... and gets blown to bits because that thing is a fleet killer and the captain has got to be better than mister "why am i alive if i'm this incompetent" running the other ship.

Quote:
Vice Admiral Holdo is a hero, of a different stripe than Poe Dameron, and Poe Dameron is now a greater hero still because he can temper his daring with thought. The Rebellion survives because of Holdo. Dameron is the leader he needs to be because of her.

This shows why that type of hero is rare in movies: it's very hard to hold back on the dramatic moments and set the plot up to show it the right way. This movie failed to do that.

There was no reason for the slow crawl to draw out the clock. At all. The justification for that is thinner than two ply. Anything that steps from that is already treading on thin ice.

There was no reason for her to be the one to pilot the ship.

Keeping the plan quiet blew up in her face.

Also, not shooting poe and putting him in the brig blew up in her face. Either would have worked.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
...

Spoiler:
Deserters amd possible spies were why the plan had to be secret. Loose lips were why the plan had to be secret. The slow crawl was to get to Crait without tipping off the First Order that was their destination all along. They were going to do another hyperjump to draw them away! It only works if the First Order is successfully tricked, secrets are less safe the more people know.

Yes, Poe succeeded at wrecking the destroyer at the cost of literally every bomber in the fleet. Had he obeyed orders those bombers and their pilots might have been useful later. Leia demoted him because of his recklessness, failure to follow orders and human cost. She has been too lenient with Poe, and needs to reel him in. There’s a reason she ends up stunning him when he mutinies. He didn’t listen to what she was telling him.

Anyway, I’m done arguing with you.

This was the best Star War. Don’t @ me.


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Spoiler:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Because someone trying to enact their own plan might mess it up.

Which they wouldn't have been trying if someone had told them there was a plan.

...

Or if Poe actually had the discipline to obey his orders like a soldier is supposed to rather than think he knows better than his superiors. He's a skilled hotshot, but he keeps getting people killed with his half-cocked actions and leadership, not Vice Admiral Holdo. She shouldn't need to tell Poe anything because he should know how the chain of command works and obey it, not only when he doesn't think he has a better plan.

Poe wasn't right to attack the dreadnaught. He got people killed and only destroyed the dreadnaught because he got lucky. That's not good leadership. That's sloppy and wasteful leadership.


Benchak the Nightstalker Show don't tell wrote:

Spoiler:
Really? The justification is that you BARELY pulled off a miracle? Seriously?

The characters are telling me what a bad deal it was but the film did absolutely nothing to show how it didn't work out. His gamble paid off.

Just like it does every time for the plucky flyboy. Its like authority figures only exist to let the audience know what kind of odds the hero is up against. To have any chance of saying thats the wrong call, he would have needed to have failed dramatically.

He didn't He succeeded. The movie is telling me he's wrong but showing me that he's right.

16 hours of impulse is surely enough space to warp.


Bill Dunn wrote:
Spoilers ahoy

Spoiler:
Quote:
Or if Poe actually had the discipline to obey his orders like a soldier is supposed to rather than think he knows better than his superiors. He's a skilled hotshot, but he keeps getting people killed with his half-cocked actions and leadership, not Vice Admiral Holdo. She shouldn't need to tell Poe anything because he should know how the chain of command works and obey it, not only when he doesn't think he has a better plan.

Who would have thought a group of rebels would have.. well rebels in it. If she was leading clone troopers she'd be on the other side.

Quote:
Poe wasn't right to attack the dreadnaught. He got people killed and only destroyed the dreadnaught because he got lucky. That's not good leadership. That's sloppy and wasteful leadership.

Its neither sloppy nor wasteful. Its damned effective. The benefit gained compared to the expense is astronomically in his favor.

And if that's luck... its how this universe works. The cruisers seem to be made out of tissue paper when a small fighter smashes into them, the deathstar got blown up by a crazy little fighter squadron (twice). His tactics work, and if they're desperate, desperate tactics are the only option when you're that badly out numbered.


Musical interlude


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Spoiler:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Its neither sloppy nor wasteful. Its damned effective. The benefit gained compared to the expense is astronomically in his favor.

And if that's luck... its how this universe works. The cruisers seem to be made out of tissue paper when a small fighter smashes into them, the deathstar got blown up by a crazy little fighter squadron (twice). His tactics work, and if they're desperate, desperate tactics are the only option when you're that badly out numbered.

Any more effective and he'll be effecting himself out of having any troops to command. Not exactly the kind of commander I'd like to have in charge (because I'd be dead and the internet peanut gallery would be giving the commander accolades for getting me killed).

Fortunately, Poe's learning.


Bill Dunn wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Any less effective and he would have been out of troops to command and an objective to protect.
Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Spoiler:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Give me one argument why poe was wrong to press the attack.

Because it wasn't necessary for their escape plan, and the chance it would succeed was extremely small?

Or, if I'm being cheeky, because "we don't win by destroying what we hate, we win by saving what we love." :)

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Really? The justification is that you BARELY pulled off a miracle? Seriously?

The characters are telling me what a bad deal it was but the film did absolutely nothing to show how it didn't work out. His gamble paid off.

Just like it does every time for the plucky flyboy. Its like authority figures only exist to let the audience know what kind of odds the hero is up against. To have any chance of saying thats the wrong call, he would have needed to have failed dramatically.

He didn't He succeeded. The movie is telling me he's wrong but showing me that he's right.

That's right, he barely pulled off a miracle--in a moment when no one needed him to pull off a miracle.

To put it another way, if I go out and blow my rent money at the horse track, and just so happen to win enough cash to cover my rent for a year, am I making great decisions? I would argue no. Only in hindsight can I say I made the right call. But gambling with your rent money is stupid as hell.

And Poe DOES fail dramatically--the next time he tries a plucky flyboy move. He didn't trust his superiors, tried something daring and outrageous that had little chance of success (just like with the bombers), and instead of barely pulling off the miracle again, he got everyone killed.

You can't ignore half the film and then say it doesn't land the moral. It's like I said, you have to build up the tragic figure before knocking the legs out from under him.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
16 hours of impulse is surely enough space to warp.

And as you're spinning up your drive, they turn. Now you're jumping away from the rebel ships, and burning fuel to do so.


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Quote:
Because it wasn't necessary for their escape plan, and the chance it would succeed was extremely small? That's right, he barely pulled off a miracle--in a moment when no one needed him to pull off a miracle.

The guy in the cockpit isn't supposed to have a better idea of the big picture here, but he has a better idea of the big picture here.

1) escape
2) get the signal out
3) fight the order
4) profit off the sale of dancing teddybears

Three is not an avoidable thing here. That thing has to go, and was caught with its pants down and without whatever support it was supposed to have out and ready.

"Hey. We're the rebel fleet from timbuck 2 we got your distress

Dreadnaught: zap

Waits.

"hey, we're the revel fleet from timbuck 1. We got your distress ca...

ZAP.

Quote:
Or, if I'm being cheeky, because "we don't win by destroying what we hate, we win by saving what we love." :)

... by blowing up the things we hate.

Quote:
To put it another way, if I go out and blow my rent money at the horse track, and just so happen to win enough cash to cover my rent for a year, am I making great decisions? I would argue no. Only in hindsight can I say I made the right call. But gambling with your rent money is stupid as hell.

Your rents due at the end of the month

But Tony the Two by four is coming for you at the end of the year and you owe him a LOT more than rent. You get back behind the stables and notice that three of the horses have limps. ... time to gamble

Quote:
And Poe DOES fail dramatically--the next time he tries a plucky flyboy move. He didn't trust his superiors, tried something daring and outrageous that had little chance of success (just like with the bombers), and instead of barely pulling off the miracle again, he got everyone killed.

And this is not a failure on the admirals part to explain the plan, or at least tell poe there IS a plan, or realize shes leading rebels not storm troopers, because....?

Quote:
You can't ignore half the film and then say it doesn't land the moral.

1) Not remotely whats happening here.

2) you can't tell me its not a mixed message if the hotshot flyboy routine works half the time.

Quote:
And as you're spinning up your drive, they turn. Now you're jumping away from the rebel ships, and burning fuel to do so.

Fuel doesn't seem to be an issue for the first order.

"Hello, gambling planet? We need 847 metric tons of fuel and 3,300 pizzas...Hey Guys? Are the folks in the weird light blocking helmets gonna insist on ordering anchovies again? "

Scarab Sages

Totally not read every one of those spoiler posts on the last page and a half, but just putting some information about hyperspace travel in here. Apologies in advance if its redundant.

Spoiler:
A lot of complaining about how the FO didn't just hop in-front of the cruisers and end the chase. Hyperspace, in Star Wars, is heavily dependent on predetermined routing. To get from Planet A to Planet B, the astromech or navicomputer has to calculate routing based on an existing database of safe travel routes. The existing routes have existing points on them where entry and (more importantly) exit occur. The Empire used to plant Interdictors in the middle of some popular routes, specifically to create what amounts to a check point (See Tarkin for an example of this). Additionally, there are tons of examples within Canon media of "Blockades", mostly to prevent outside from getting on world. See Rebels, Season 4 as an example of ships camping the hyperspace exit point around Lothal. Or Empire as an example of camping the hyperspace entry point at Hoth.

The Resistance guys pulled away at full sub-light speed, at what appears to be a pace matched by the heavy ships of the First Order. If the FO would have tried to hyperspace to the same place (which appeared to be an unremarkable way-point in a hyperspace route), they would have probably had to make a circle in a few routes somewhere, and would pop back out at the same place they popped out the first time, giving the Resistance a further lead.

Hyperspace Route
Hyperspace

Sovereign Court

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The last Jedi was more inline with what I was hoping from Force Awakens. A new SW story with new characters and a few familiar faces for sentiment. Im glad this film was able to take on a life of its own. I have a few minor quibbles but ill be able to enjoy this again and again, which I havent been able to say for four or five films now.

question:
Where did snoke come from? Not sure if its spelled out in the films or if its buried in SW comics and anime etc.

Liberty's Edge

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

This. Was. The. Best. Star. War.

You know it’s Star Wars, not Star War, right?

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Marc Radle wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

This. Was. The. Best. Star. War.

You know it’s Star Wars, not Star War, right?

Sounds fake, but okay.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Pan wrote:

The last Jedi was more inline with what I was hoping from Force Awakens. A new SW story with new characters and a few familiar faces for sentiment. Im glad this film was able to take on a life of its own. I have a few minor quibbles but ill be able to enjoy this again and again, which I havent been able to say for four or five films now.

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
It’s not really spelled out anywhere to the audience, but it’s not actually a mystery. None of the characters are baffled or concerned by Snoke’s identity at all. Basically, Snoke is Snoke, evil Force user and leader of the First Order. His origins are, for now at least, completely irrelevant. It’s like the Emperor back when the orig trig came out. He was the generic evil bad guy who led the Empire and corrupted Vader. Until the prequels came out, there wasn’t much to know. We might see more EU stuff later, but for now, Snoke is Snoke, an obstacle in Kylo Ren’s rise to power.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, that was certainly a movie.

I'm... torn. Some bits of it were not just good, but truly excellent.

And then... then you cut away from some meaningful intense moment to look at a g~$*@$n porg.

Or you find yourself battering your head against the garbage they inherited from The Force Awakens, and watch as the film struggles desperately to fight its way free and get back to the good story.

Or you go from a neat "analyze your nostalgia" subtext to leaning on the nostalgia lever so hard it snaps off in your hand.

But I will say, it made me appreciate Kylo Ren more.

Dark Archive

baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Rogue One direct tie in to The Last Jedi.

In case you missed it.

Liberty's Edge

My take on Leia and the Force.

Spoiler:
Getting blown into space and almost dying is a pretty traumatic event, I can see how something like that could cause her to use the Force to survive.Looked like a one time thing to me.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Pan wrote:

The last Jedi was more inline with what I was hoping from Force Awakens. A new SW story with new characters and a few familiar faces for sentiment. Im glad this film was able to take on a life of its own. I have a few minor quibbles but ill be able to enjoy this again and again, which I havent been able to say for four or five films now.

** spoiler omitted **

** Snoke spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

I'd say it's more like "it's a mystery that only a couple POV characters actually trip across, and they've got better things to wonder about."

I would also disagree with views like "you don't need to know, because the Emperor was the same way."

In the original trilogy, you start with a physically-strong, imposing, ruthless villain (Vader.) Then, you see bits of the guy he's afraid of. We fear him more by association. He didn't exactly come out of nowhere, either, because we expect an Empire to have an Emperor. Most of his past is left unstated, yes (other than the implication that he helped train Vader,) but at this point most of the world's history is unstated. He's just "old guy with magic powers", which is fine.

The prequels took a different approach. They showed a manipulator behind the scenes, arranging the villain du jour for their benefit. Then, once the audience was shown "hey, that's the guy sitting across from the heroes!", he begins manipulating Anakin. He's shown as being responsible for the threats faced, giving you a reason to hate/fear him. His past is still mostly unstated (beyond "he's a politician",) but what we do know gives an excellent reason why it would be unknown (very small order devoted to secrecy that the ruling class would execute in a heartbeat, hidden by the existence of the Jedi order.) Again, his precise past doesn't matter as much for what he's used for.

For the sequels... I will admit I've only seen Episodes VII and VIII once each. However, my impression is as follows. Snoke initially tries to be "the boss of our villain", like the Emperor did. However, unlike with Vader, Kylo is unintimidating and a weak villain (who throws Force temper-tantrums.) As a result, Snoke is left with a much weaker connection to anything. He's not shown to have the "personal" touch, he's not shown to give speeches to the masses, he's just a giant head that talks to the leaders. More an "advisor to the throne" kind of feel. Then, in VIII, they finally show him... to be an inconsistent-feeling manipulator with no prior connection to Kylo. Why is Kylo with this guy? Where did the scar and everything come from? Did he actually do anything other than play favorites with his top leaders? And here, unlike the other trilogies, his past matters - both because what he's doing now is uninteresting, and because it's implied to matter (scars.) It's a case of Chekhov's Gun - don't hang horrible scars on the villain in the first act unless they're going to be important in the second. And how did he escape TWO major shifts in the Force-user landscape? If he was hidden in the prequels, he should have been easy to spot in the originals (especially if he's always aimed for power.) If he didn't exist in the prequels, he would have been trained during the original (violating the rule of two and producing a threat to the throne of the guy training him.) He comes out of nowhere, does nothing, and dies.


archmagi1 wrote:
To cape cods last point, is the republic capital still Courescant?

No. The Republic capital apparently rotated through the member state homeworlds, so I assume at some point Mon Calamari, Sullust, Bothawui, maybe even Kashyyyk have all served as the capital. Hosnian Prime just happened to be holding the capital when Starkiller Base vapourised it in TFA. Coruscant is still out there and might still be the cultural capital and most important world in the galaxy for trade, but it's no longer the centre of government. It's now just New York, rather than Washington DC and New York rolled into one.

Quote:
Rogue One direct tie in to The Last Jedi.

Yeah, that was entertaining.

Spoiler:
In the previous movies you could only track a ship through hyperspace if they had a homing beacon on board, like in Episode IV. This technology is interesting because all you need to do is record the ship's exit vector and the tracker seems to extrapolate a destination by instantaneously correlating all possible systems along that vector and the power level involved in the jump. That would collapse the number of possible exit systems to likely just one. The limitation would seem to be computing power, as you'd need to model the actual position (not perceived position from visual observation, which would be limited to the speed of light) of all the stars in the entire galaxy in real-time. It's probably some kind of quantum computer.

The only problem with that is that it's easy to fox. Jump to random coordinate and then jump from that coordinate to your real destination before the pursuing force can show up and take a reading. It'll come down to how fast your hyperdrive can recharge.


Marc Radle wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
This. Was. The. Best. Star. War.
You know it’s Star Wars, not Star War, right?

I suspect DMaD is an Arrested Development fan.


archmagi1 wrote:

Totally not read every one of those spoiler posts on the last page and a half, but just putting some information about hyperspace travel in here. Apologies in advance if its redundant.

** spoiler omitted **

Oh horsefeathers.

Spoiler:
Han has taken off from everywhere and put on the breaks with a distance measured in feet. I get that he's risky and good, but if thats remotely possible for anyone then the first orders best ships can take off and land in a distance measured in AU units.

Scarab Sages

BigNorseWolf wrote:
archmagi1 wrote:

Totally not read every one of those spoiler posts on the last page and a half, but just putting some information about hyperspace travel in here. Apologies in advance if its redundant.

** spoiler omitted **

Oh horsefeathers.

** spoiler omitted **

Yeah, but Han is da-man. Grayshirts #940-960 in the telenav deck of destroyer X couldn't hold a candle to the second smoothest man in the galaxy.


archmagi1 wrote:

[

Yeah, but Han is da-man. Grayshirts #940-960 in the telenav deck of destroyer X couldn't hold a candle to the second smoothest man in the galaxy.

I tried to figure out what the order of magnitude difference is but i don't remember how e works.


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I'm not going to hate on (much) for the Last Jedi, I do respect what the director tried to do. But I just don't think the execution was done well. Someone here said the scenes feel like they were done by committee. That I think is the feeling I get.

Director has a great idea, tosses it to Disney Film, they stew around with it, make some modifications. Done. Director has another idea, tosses it to Disney. Rinse and repeat. Glue all these ideas on to the central idea that this movie has to be the rebels on the run. Done. Its shiny, has some funny bits, every character gets some time.

What you have then is a high quality space romp.

But the problem is, to me, it just feels disjointed. By trying to go new directions and throw in lots of twists, the movie loses the coherence of the narrative arc. Too many loose threads left dangling or abruptly waved off.

I could go on. All I can say this is like finding a restaurant years ago that makes something awesome, and you went there a few times and your particular favorite dish was always good, with varying degrees of success. You come back to the restaurants a few decades later and its still around, and the item is still on the menu, you of course order it, and while it sorta looks the same, the taste is off. It's still worth eating since you paid for it, but its not worth driving across town to eat at repeatedly.

So, won't buying the DVD for this one, and likely will ignore the hype for future SW movies. Unless screenplay by Timothy Zahn.


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Zahns books are not being made into movies.

Let it go.


As talked about earlier, I think the Porgs were WAY over done. I know cute animals sell stuff but the original Star Wars sold loads of those little posable dolls, legos, models and whatnot with creepy and intimidating aliens. Porgs were just there to yank focus away to see them being cute

See cute Porg looking cute
See cute Porg looking cutely pitiful
See cute Porg do cute pratfall
See cute Porg wearing cute hat

When they started infesting the Falcon I started thinking of Tribbles with them crammed everywhere.

The Salt Foxes were helpful but how they were used confused me. I think animals would not scamper amongst the humans when the big dog closed. Having them already in the mine would point to the back entrance but be looked over at first since everyone was so focused on setting up


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MannyGoblin wrote:

As talked about earlier, I think the Porgs were WAY over done. I know cute animals sell stuff but the original Star Wars sold loads of those little posable dolls, legos, models and whatnot with creepy and intimidating aliens. Porgs were just there to yank focus away to see them being cute

See cute Porg looking cute
See cute Porg looking cutely pitiful
See cute Porg do cute pratfall
See cute Porg wearing cute hat

When they started infesting the Falcon I started thinking of Tribbles with them crammed everywhere.

The Salt Foxes were helpful but how they were used confused me. I think animals would not scamper amongst the humans when the big dog closed. Having them already in the mine would point to the back entrance but be looked over at first since everyone was so focused on setting up

salt fox are direct call to star wars rebels. Instant they came up I knew the cast was going to have to follow them.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Porgs exist because it was easier than trying to digitally remove the puffins from the shooting location.


Freehold DM wrote:

Zahns books are not being made into movies.

Let it go.

take my love take my land take me where I cannot stand...

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

A pretty good read on the military mistakes the rebels make repeatedly:
Wired Article


1 person marked this as a favorite.
MannyGoblin wrote:


The Salt Foxes were helpful but how they were used confused me. I think animals would not scamper amongst the humans when the big dog closed. Having them already in the mine would point to the back entrance but be looked over at first since everyone was so focused on setting up

There's two answers for that

Spoiler:

1) ACK! humans with giant machines with giant guns. Everyone into the cave!

... ack! How'd the humans get in here? Everyone out the back!

2) Luke can wild empathy via telepresence.


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I have not seen the movie, but perhaps the salt foxes are unphased by humanoids, much as quokka's* are.

(* Yes, I know quokkas are actually just CGI critters invented by WETA for Australian tourism, but wouldn't it be awesome if they were real?)


Act 1

Spoiler:
Too jumbled. The first "where is Rey?" cut was cute, but then they continued to use it and it got annoying. Rogue One had a similar problem of having too many scenes taking place on different planets one after the other at the beginning. I understand that Star Wars is a planet hopping franchise, but too many locations too close together is annoying. If you can't let things just develop, it's a clue that your movie isn't well written.

Act 2

Spoiler:
Worst part of the movie. The gambling planet was 90% bust. It was interesting to hint at the broader grey aspects of the universe and how this conflict is a means for getting rich to some, but otherwise that whole section should be gone.

As others have pointed out, hyperspace should not be part of the plot, and with such fast jumping it makes the galaxy feel smaller, not bigger.

The whole flying the ship until it runs out of fuel, but we have a secret plan, was dumb. The entirety of it was so Poe could have this quiet moment where he tells the salt skimmers to break off and show that he's grown, but it was such a tiny thing and largely irrelevant. It also taught Poe the lesson "Don't try, things will work out in the end and someone else will save you."

The best part of Act 2 is that Snoke dies. He was useless anyways.

Act 3

Spoiler:

Best part of the movie. It uses the elements already present to at least give some good pay off, but most of the crappy stuff from before didn't actually help. Luke's transition in the third act is great, and I loved it. The whole time on the final planet is good. Tons of great references to previous movies. I wish that Luke had made a slightly more obvious reference to either Yoda or Obi-wan with his dialogue, it felt like they were trying to say "No, there is another," and "Strike me down..." without actually saying those things, but I think they tried too hard. Leaning into one of them would have been okay. Neither line he says is as memorable, and it should have been. They were his goodbyes to the audience, and they should have leaned into it more.

I didn't like the salt foxes. I've been told they're a reference to something else, but not being aware of said reference, they felt dumb. Things shouldn't feel dumb just because you don't know the reference.

Kudos to the movie for actually using a 3-act structure. So many movies skip act 2 these days and just go to the long drawn out battle at the end.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:

Zahns books are not being made into movies.

Let it go.

take my love take my land take me where I cannot stand...

takes zahn novels, sky from bignorsewolf

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