Star Wars The Last Jedi


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Silver Crusade

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Not really.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

Story. Not movie. Big difference.

There is an actual disconnect or disassociation between the themes it's trying to show and what actually happens. That is real, it is objective, it doesn't go away because people shout is not.

You can absolutely like or love the movie in spite of that, but it is there.

fascinating. Every word you said is wrong.


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Freehold DM wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Story. Not movie. Big difference.

There is an actual disconnect or disassociation between the themes it's trying to show and what actually happens. That is real, it is objective, it doesn't go away because people shout is not.

You can absolutely like or love the movie in spite of that, but it is there.

fascinating. Every word you said is wrong.

Show. Don't tell.

Grand Lodge

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Take your own advice. You haven't shown anything.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Take your own advice. You haven't shown anything.

Horsepucky. I've gone over the problems in a fair bit of detail.

It's there in the thread, objectively.

Grand Lodge

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Horsepucky. I've gone over the problems in a fair bit of detail.

And none of it has been convincing.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Horsepucky. I've gone over the problems in a fair bit of detail.
And none of it has been convincing.

Then make a counter point. Anyone can say its not convincing to anything.

Grand Lodge

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It's been done. They didn't convince you anymore than you convinced them.

Silver Crusade

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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Every step is so clear, Poe’s journey is one from fly-boy to leader.

I think that the biggest problem I have with this argument is that Poe is just NOT even remotely a leader. Not at the beginning, not at the end.

He is a leader only because people say that he is a leader. He is not shown at any point to be remotely competent.

Lets ignore all of his failures in the movie (that is part of his learning, after all) and go to the end.

He sends out a bunch of skimmers on a valiant suicide mission in an attempt to buy time. He realizes (just as it appeared to the viewers that the mission was about to succeed) that his friend would die so he calls for the mission to be aborted. With no backup plan.

His one and only "leadership" moment seems to be to realize that the Foxes may have a way out. Some totally random shlub could have cried out "The foxes. They know a way out. Lets follow them". Would that have been considered leadership? Of course not.

And even then, of course, his plan fails absent the Deus Ex Machina of Ray, The Falcoln, and Luke.

The original Star Wars actually had some characters show some leadership. Leia and Lando actually showed significant leadership. Luke and Han never showed much but that was never their Arc.


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Crystal fox for grand admiral 34 ABY!

Grand Lodge

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Oddly appropriate that I find this now.


People keep saying that Holdo didn’t tell anyone her plans but that’s not true. She was keeping her plans on a need to know basis.

Silver Crusade

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Knight who says Meh wrote:
People keep saying that Holdo didn’t tell anyone her plans but that’s not true. She was keeping her plans on a need to know basis.

Yep, case in point, everyone getting the transport ships ready.


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Knight who says Meh wrote:
People keep saying that Holdo didn’t tell anyone her plans but that’s not true. She was keeping her plans on a need to know basis.

Right, so here's my plan.

We're going to keep going at sub light speeds.

Their Tie fighters can catch us and blow up our bridge and our shuttle bay. But can't do anything unless they're supported. Like blow up our escape ships from that same shuttle bay. Somehow

None of their ships can catch us at sublight speeds.

and then none of them will FTL around us to cut us off.

OH! And they won't call in any reinforcements.

THEN i'm going to violate the laws of physics and do an FTL ram into the ships, which kinda makes any other sort of ship to ship combat obsolete. But it will look awesome.

We're going to sneak away in cloaked shuttles when they scan the debris for our bodies, but they won't SCAN for cloaked shuttles. because reasons. Oh, and those now supported tie fighters won't come out and look at us through the window.

That... isn't a plan. Its a bucket full of wishful thinking about what other people will do for.. reasons. Thats not something a character gets to control, thats something the author decides and the roles are mixed up here.

And that plan not only has to be self supporting, that plan is load bearing, narratively. It has to support the narrative that poe shouldn't be doing the cowboy pilot thing (a staple of the genre). It has to support him being in the wrong for not trusting his superiors. It has to support him changing and.. it falls parsecs short of that.


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Wasn't the whole point of Rogue One not blindly following the orders of your superiors, because if you do you're do better than a soulless stormtrooper.

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So, I'd like to spend a minute discussing genre. Genre is about setting and tech-level, of course, but it's also about themes, and about what kind of stories you can tell.

"Little House on the Prairie" is set in the American West during the 19th Century, but it's not a "Western". It's a different type of book, and its genre is properly "Girl's Fiction."

One of the ways that genre is useful is that it tells us what kind of decisions are right. In a Western, individuals fight their individual battles. In Girl's Fiction, the correct choice is always to work with your friends / family / support network; going off alone never works.

So, what are the genre conventions of a Star Wars story? One of them has been, consistently, that it's more important to do what's right, than what's smart. Yoda tells Luke that going to Bespin before his training is complete is a terrible choice and will get his friends killed. Luke goes anyway, and that's the correct choice.

One movie later, Luke walks up and gets himself arrested, despite what everybody else thinks is smart, and that's the correct choice, too.

It's easy to see Poe's decision at the beginning of the film in that light. Leia is telling him that the assault would be a bad idea, and he does the dangerous thing, anyway. But the genre conventions don't say "dangerous is better than safe". They say "right is better than smart." Poe isn't attacking the Dreadnought because it's morally right, because he's trying to save people he cares about. He's doing so because he thinks its militarily smart.

The unspoken framework of the movie makes it feel like the same kind of decision, but it's not. My opinion is (a) I think Johnson made a mistake by making it seem as parallel to Star Wars heroics as it does, because it carries the viewer along with Poe's bad decision, and (b) that's the reason this movie seems 'off' in a lot of cases.

The genre of these movies relies on a character making a Moral Choice. Han comes back to help fight the Death Star. Luke travels to Bespin to save his friends. Vader saves his son.

And throughout the movie, we keep seeing the results of heroic decisions, without seeing the decisions themselves. Rose's decision to save Finn from the cornucopia of doom was a correct moral choice, but we never see her make it. Luke's decision to project to Leia's location, and then outside, was likewise an essential turn of the character.

Star Wars has done this before -- we don't see Han's moral choice in A New Hope -- but for dramatic reveal. Here, there's just scenes we don't see.

Incidentally, who replaced C-3P0's arm? Is that really such a high priority when bugging out? And I'm weirded out that droids can see Luke's projected image.

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
That... isn't a plan.

You’re right. That’s the clusterf%*+ that Poe caused by making his own plan. A plan that failed and got a lot more people killed.


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Can't we dislike Poe and Holdo both for withholding information from each other?


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Christ Mortika wrote:
Incidentally, who replaced C-3P0's arm?

Its on the right way so i'm going to guesse it wasn't the wookie.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
That... isn't a plan.
You’re right. That’s the clusterf%!# that Poe caused by making his own plan. A plan that failed and got a lot more people killed.

That plan was a wing short of a wing and a prayer before Poe messed it up. Poe doesn't mess anything up till stage 7 which.. they might have gotten on their own anyway.

Poe at least had a clear path to victory. Unlikely as it was it was a very star wars solution to the problem. Sit on your hands and wait and let the authority figures do it for you while you do nothing.. not so much.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
That... isn't a plan.
You’re right. That’s the clusterf#+& that Poe caused by making his own plan. A plan that failed and got a lot more people killed.

None of the issues Big Norse Wolf point out have anything to do with Poe creating a separate plan. The only reason Poe's plan was what caused the main plan to fail was the plot required that, all the other reasons should have caused the plan to fail well before that. Also why does Admiral Holdo say she likes Poe? Their combined actions and lack of trust killed almost the entire resistance.


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I think the getting them killed part came slightly after the liking part, and she didn't get a chance to revise her opinion. At that point it had just been a bloodless mutiny and a few stun blasts to the face between friends.

Grand Lodge

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Delightful wrote:
Can't we dislike Poe and Holdo both for withholding information from each other?

Sure. I absolutely agree that Holdo shouldn't have left a hotshot sitting around with nothing to do but come up with bad ideas. Maybe she should have told him the plan, and set him on getting the transports ready.

But would "Poe helps the Resistance quietly slip away and hide from the First Order" been a meaningful story to tell alongside Rey and Luke meeting and working out a master/student relationship? I mean, Finn would have been about just as useless as he was in the actual film, so no change there?

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To those who say that Holdo's plan was "need to know": once Poe pulled a blaster on the senior command, "Cloaked shuttles go to that old base" take as many syllables as "I hope you know what you're doing."

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Poe at least had a clear path to victory.

So did Holdo. You don't get to say Leia's plan was short of hope but Poe's wasn't. (EDIT: I may have misunderstood Holdo's comment about having received instructions left behind by Leia on this point.)

Browman wrote:
None of the issues Big Norse Wolf point out have anything to do with Poe creating a separate plan.

The hyperspace ram was never part of the plan until transports started getting blown up. After Poe leaked their existence on unsecured comms.


Chris Mortika wrote:
To those who say that Holdo's plan was "need to know": once Poe pulled a blaster on the senior command, "Cloaked shuttles go to that old base" take as many syllables as "I hope you know what you're doing."

So tell your secret plan to the person holding you at gun point? Doesn’t sound very brave commanderish.

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Knight who says Meh wrote:


So tell your secret plan to the person holding you at gun point? Doesn’t sound very brave commanderish.

(laugh) At that point, the shuttles were ready to be launched. They were a couple minutes away from everybody needing to know, because everyone would have been boarding.

Telling Poe at that point might not have been "brave", but it would have been prudent. Once Poe understood the plan, he liked it. And Holdo likes him, and presumably likes his brash mutiny.

As people point out, both Holdo and Poe throw the Idiot Ball around.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Delightful wrote:
Can't we dislike Poe and Holdo both for withholding information from each other?

Sure. I absolutely agree that Holdo shouldn't have left a hotshot sitting around with nothing to do but come up with bad ideas. Maybe she should have told him the plan, and set him on getting the transports ready.

But would "Poe helps the Resistance quietly slip away and hide from the First Order" been a meaningful story to tell alongside Rey and Luke meeting and working out a master/student relationship? I mean, Finn would have been about just as useless as he was in the actual film, so no change there?

Honestly as much as I like Finn and Poe, the Last Jedi would have been a better film if their stories (diversions really) were completely cut and more time was given to Rey's training.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:


So did Holdo. You don't get to say Leia's plan was short of hope but Poe's wasn't.

Eh?

Leia's first plan was hit the lightspeed button and moon the empire on their way to escape. Perfectly valid plan given that hyperspace tracking was unknown and a unique prototype. Not only had hope but really should have worked given what she knew.

Leia's plan after the order showed up was kind of limited to saying "bantha chips..." and getting blown up.

Leia's plan at the end was Hold them off for x amount of time, fire up the space radio, call for help and rally the resistance. Its not going to work, but they didn't know that.

If you mean Holdo's plan, the enormous difference is that her plan relies on what other people do and requires them to be superbly incompetent while Poes plan relies on what his team mates can do and requires his team to be superbly competent... you know.. heroic level competent.

And thats the difference here. That's the genre. That a small group of people can make an enormous difference by getting the macguffin. If you're going to make a movie where reality ensues you can't selectively have reality happen to one plan and not the other, especially when one plan is boring and the other is exciting.

Quote:


The hyperspace ram was never part of the plan until transports started getting blown up. After Poe leaked their existence on unsecured comms.

I'm trying to remember the timing on that, but wasn't she saying final goodbyes to Leia before the life boats starting getting blown up? That would strong imply she was going to do the ram before the ships started blowing up.


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Delightful wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Delightful wrote:
Can't we dislike Poe and Holdo both for withholding information from each other?

Sure. I absolutely agree that Holdo shouldn't have left a hotshot sitting around with nothing to do but come up with bad ideas. Maybe she should have told him the plan, and set him on getting the transports ready.

But would "Poe helps the Resistance quietly slip away and hide from the First Order" been a meaningful story to tell alongside Rey and Luke meeting and working out a master/student relationship? I mean, Finn would have been about just as useless as he was in the actual film, so no change there?

Honestly as much as I like Finn and Poe, the Last Jedi would have been a better film if their stories (diversions really) were completely cut and more time was given to Rey's training.

The entire movie feels like they had a decent idea for the Rey, Luke, Kylo Ren side, then realized they had no plan for anyone else, they don't care about anyone else and everything not related to the Force storyline gets phoned in.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:


I'm trying to remember the timing on that, but wasn't she saying final goodbyes to Leia before the life boats starting getting blown up? That would strong imply she was going to do the ram before the ships started blowing up.

She was, but I think the plan at that point was just to do a hyperspace jump, get caught and blown up, leaving the First Order not knowing the Resistance had mostly escaped on the cloaked transport.

Once the transports were being shot down, there was no point in that, so she tried the desperation move.

Grand Lodge

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
I'm trying to remember the timing on that, but wasn't she saying final goodbyes to Leia before the life boats starting getting blown up? That would strong imply she was going to do the ram before the ships started blowing up.

The plan at that point was to be a decoy while they made it to the surface. She may have been the one planned to make the hyperspace jump after the transports were away and lead the First Order on one last goose chase before being destroyed. I'm not sure if they could have autopiloted a hyperspace jump away. But I took the look on her face when the transports started exploding to be a change of plans.

Edit: What thejeff said

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
I'm trying to remember the timing on that, but wasn't she saying final goodbyes to Leia before the life boats starting getting blown up? That would strong imply she was going to do the ram before the ships started blowing up.

I think her plan was to keep piloting the cruiser until it ran out of gas and then wait for it to be blowed up. "A captain goes down with her ship" sort of deal.

Why they couldn't stick C-3P0 with that job, I don't know. Or an engineer who has nothing better to do than stun people trying to escape.

But yes, the plan was to sacrifice a Vice Admiral. Or maybe let her be captured and interrogated by Snoke.

EDIT: Yeah.

Silver Crusade

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“Well I’m in charge and important and this is a suicide mission so I need someone who I think is less important to sacrifice themselves in my place” said no one with a soul ever.


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Hero gets a generous helping of airquotes in regard to Holdo. As far as the movie is concerned, she's the angry police chief to Poe/Finn/Rose's loose cannon cops on the edge who don't play by the rules but nonetheless get results.

She's presented as an obstacle to overcome, not a hero. Her hopping onto a shuttle after just setting the cruiser's autopilot to "forward" (Or getting some random astromech droid/anon techie to do it since autopilot evidently doesn't exist anymore since the medical frigate needed a suicide pilot too) is about as sensical as it comes and has the fun fact of not getting what remains of your senior leadership blown up, plus it ties into Rose's whole spiel about COWARDS and such.

Silver Crusade

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She’s part of the Resistance, she sacrificed herself to save what was left of it. She’s a hero.


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Rysky wrote:
“Well I’m in charge and important and this is a suicide mission so I need someone who I think is less important to sacrifice themselves in my place” said no one with a soul ever.

I thought the whole point of Holdo was that heroic sacrifices are dumb and that people like her need to stay alive for the Resistance?

Instead she sacrifices herself which is something that Rose was angry about Finn almost doing. Kind of thematic whiplash. The message of staying alive to fight another day would have been stronger if Holdo actually stayed alive and let some kind of autopilot destroy the Supremacy.

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“Protecting what you love” is the point.

That’s what Holdo did. Finn just wasn’t going to accomplish that if he did sacrifice himself.

Silver Crusade

TriOmegaZero wrote:


But would "Poe helps the Resistance quietly slip away and hide from the First Order" been a meaningful story to tell alongside Rey and Luke meeting and working out a master/student relationship?

Absolutely it wouldn't have been. As a GM I'd have rejected it and come up with something better.

I strongly suspect I'd succeed. With seconds of thought, I'd have Finn and Poe have to go to CasinoWorld to pick up some JumpFuel so the ships could make jumps in rapid succession. And have them have to fight the FO fleet at each jump as they buy time to get away (each fight, they have to buy a little less time).

I'm NOT a highly paid scriptwriter. I kinda hope that the highly paid scriptwriters can do a WHOLE lot better job than I can.

I mean, the choice surely is NOT a binary one between
1) The story we got
2) The Resistance slips quietly away and hides from the First Order.


Rysky wrote:
She’s part of the Resistance, she sacrificed herself to save what was left of it. She’s a hero.

Didn't Leia say that the Resistance is already full of heroes but really needs leaders like Holdo?


Rysky wrote:
She’s part of the Resistance, she sacrificed herself to save what was left of it. She’s a hero.

A dead hero. Which is exactly what the Resistance doesn't need at the present time (see also Leia's comments about losing all their bombers and a fair chunk of their interceptors to the Dread).

Her nobly going down with the ship is romantic and heroic I guess, but it's also dumb and counter to the big picture of what the Resistance needs. And it's not like you can say this is just nerds being overly critical and armchair admiraling. The movie said more or less the same thing at the start of the movie.

Silver Crusade

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Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Rysky wrote:
She’s part of the Resistance, she sacrificed herself to save what was left of it. She’s a hero.

A dead hero. Which is exactly what the Resistance doesn't need at the present time (see also Leia's comments about losing all their bombers and a fair chunk of their interceptors to the Dread).

Her nobly going down with the ship is romantic and heroic I guess, but it's also dumb and counter to the big picture of what the Resistance needs. And it's not like you can say this is just nerds being overly critical and armchair admiraling. The movie said more or less the same thing at the start of the movie.

At the start when the Reistance didn’t number in a single dozen and a half. At the end the Resistance needs people, period.

Holdo sacrificing herself wasn’t a choice between leader and hero, it was a choice to save as many of the Resistance as she could. A dead hero vs a leader with nothing but dead heroes.

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Rysky wrote:
“Well I’m in charge and important and this is a suicide mission so I need someone who I think is less important to sacrifice themselves in my place” said no one with a soul ever.

Well, then just about every decent military commander and head of state in history is soulless then.

War has casualties. As part of command you send good and decent people to their nearly certain death. As part of the bigger picture you sacrifice people for the greater good.

Edit: Heck, the movies are FULL of people being ordered to sacrifice themselves. Right from the very first scene in the first movie. Those poor rebels standing in the corridors as the Star Destroyer Storm Troopers came in had presumably been ordered to sacrifice their lives in order to buy a little bit of time. They surely knew that was the BEST they could possibly achieve.


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Rysky wrote:

“Protecting what you love” is the point.

That’s what Holdo did. Finn just wasn’t going to accomplish that if he did sacrifice himself.

Finn was trying to protect the Resistance, a group that had grown to love. Sure he hated the First Order too but those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive, right?

Also, Holdo's sacrifice was just as useless as Finn's probably would have been. Even with the Supremacy gone, the overpowered First Order still has a bunch of landwalkers and a Death Star cannon. Her death barely made a difference. Just like those bombers barely made a difference at the beginning. Holdo should have stayed with the Resistance and been a leader that kept the spirit of the Resistance alive with her decades of experience and wisdom.


Rysky wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Rysky wrote:
She’s part of the Resistance, she sacrificed herself to save what was left of it. She’s a hero.

A dead hero. Which is exactly what the Resistance doesn't need at the present time (see also Leia's comments about losing all their bombers and a fair chunk of their interceptors to the Dread).

Her nobly going down with the ship is romantic and heroic I guess, but it's also dumb and counter to the big picture of what the Resistance needs. And it's not like you can say this is just nerds being overly critical and armchair admiraling. The movie said more or less the same thing at the start of the movie.

At the start when the Reistance didn’t number in a single dozen and a half. At the end the Resistance needs people, period.

Holdo sacrificing herself wasn’t a choice between leader and hero, it was a choice to save as many of the Resistance as she could. A dead hero vs a leader with nothing but dead heroes.

So Rose is an idiot and Finn should have tried to save what little of the Resistance was left by sacrificing himself. Ok...

I get that the numbers changed at some point but themes need to be consistent, right? You can't just say that sacrificing yourself is bad than say it's fine under these circumstances but later on say it's bad again. It's gives the audience mixed messages and is hampered by the fact that the First Order doesn't seem to actual suffer that much when heroic sacrifices are made in almost any situation.

I hope that made sense to you Rysky. I don't want this discussion to go toxic.

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pauljathome wrote:
Rysky wrote:
“Well I’m in charge and important and this is a suicide mission so I need someone who I think is less important to sacrifice themselves in my place” said no one with a soul ever.

Well, then just about every decent military commander and head of state in history is soulless then.

War has casualties. As part of command you send good and decent people to their nearly certain death. As part of the bigger picture you sacrifice people for the greater good.

Edit: Heck, the movies are FULL of people being ordered to sacrifice themselves. Right from the very first scene in the first movie. Those poor rebels standing in the corridors as the Star Destroyer Storm Troopers came in had presumably been ordered to sacrifice their lives in order to buy a little bit of time. They surely knew that was the BEST they could possibly achieve.

You got a point.

But there’s a bit of difference between dying for a cause and someone literally telling you to go die in their place cause they don’t want to.

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Delightful wrote:
Rysky wrote:

“Protecting what you love” is the point.

That’s what Holdo did. Finn just wasn’t going to accomplish that if he did sacrifice himself.

Finn was trying to protect the Resistance, a group that had grown to love. Sure he hated the First Order too but those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive, right?

Also, Holdo's sacrifice was just as useless as Finn's probably would have been. Even with the Supremacy gone, the overpowered First Order still has a bunch of landwalkers and a Death Star cannon. Her death barely made a difference. Just like those bombers barely made a difference at the beginning. Holdo should have stayed with the Resistance and been a leader that kept the spirit of the Resistance alive with her decades of experience and wisdom.

And what would Finn have accomplished had he got his junker to the bunker buster? When the FO has all that other artillery in the off chance he did manage to damage it?

Holdo f+~$ed up the entire fleet, including the capital ship. That’s their main base of operations.

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Delightful wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Rysky wrote:
She’s part of the Resistance, she sacrificed herself to save what was left of it. She’s a hero.

A dead hero. Which is exactly what the Resistance doesn't need at the present time (see also Leia's comments about losing all their bombers and a fair chunk of their interceptors to the Dread).

Her nobly going down with the ship is romantic and heroic I guess, but it's also dumb and counter to the big picture of what the Resistance needs. And it's not like you can say this is just nerds being overly critical and armchair admiraling. The movie said more or less the same thing at the start of the movie.

At the start when the Reistance didn’t number in a single dozen and a half. At the end the Resistance needs people, period.

Holdo sacrificing herself wasn’t a choice between leader and hero, it was a choice to save as many of the Resistance as she could. A dead hero vs a leader with nothing but dead heroes.

So Rose is an idiot and Finn should have tried to save what little of the Resistance was left by sacrificing himself. Ok...

I honestly have no idea how you got that from anything I wrote.


Rysky wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Rysky wrote:
She’s part of the Resistance, she sacrificed herself to save what was left of it. She’s a hero.

A dead hero. Which is exactly what the Resistance doesn't need at the present time (see also Leia's comments about losing all their bombers and a fair chunk of their interceptors to the Dread).

Her nobly going down with the ship is romantic and heroic I guess, but it's also dumb and counter to the big picture of what the Resistance needs. And it's not like you can say this is just nerds being overly critical and armchair admiraling. The movie said more or less the same thing at the start of the movie.

At the start when the Reistance didn’t number in a single dozen and a half. At the end the Resistance needs people, period.

Holdo sacrificing herself wasn’t a choice between leader and hero, it was a choice to save as many of the Resistance as she could. A dead hero vs a leader with nothing but dead heroes.

No it wasn't. If there really wasn't an autopilot, any moron could have kept the cruiser running forward in context to having plan A (IE not the suicidal lightspeed jump which is its own kettle of fish). If you are given the choice between sacrificing your vice admiral versus say some random protocol droid or techie, I'd like to think the choice is pretty self evident. And again, you can't fall back on genre conventions to handwave it because the movie makes it pretty explicit that noble sacrifices aren't a good thing right now.

Simply put, it's easier to replace a Rose or C-3PO than it is a Holdo or even a Poe who's basically a lesser version of Wedge Antilles (Wedge would have soloed the Dread and one of the other SDs in the same time period totes).


Rysky wrote:

“Protecting what you love” is the point.

That’s what Holdo did. Finn just wasn’t going to accomplish that if he did sacrifice himself.

So the problem with Finns attempted sacrifice was that he wasn't saving Rey? Everyone else in the cave can just get slaughtered?

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