Star Wars The Last Jedi


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Brew Bird wrote:


Haven't really gone through the whole thread, so not sure if I'm in the minority on this one, but was anyone else completely satisfied with Luke's arc? I thought it was perfect, there's truly not a thing I would change about how he was presented in TLJ. I might go so far as to say his story may be one of my favorite things in Star Wars since Yoda's first appearance in episode V. It was wonderfully true to what the Jedi were implied to be in the original trilogy. Space Mystics, not a bunch of bureaucratic wizard-knights like they were in the prequels.

I totally dug the Luke Skywalker developments and found them very satisfying and entertaining - right to the end.


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Set wrote:


It also contrasts pretty strongly with Han's departure in the previous movie, which was, in essence, 'Harrison Ford is too old for this ****. Buh-bye Han. Buh-bye Decker. Guess what's gonna happen in the next Indiana Jones movie???' :)

Much like with Luke's, I appreciated Han's departure as well. It also mirrored the first movie in that Han turned back from his original instinct to keep moving from trouble to try to help in a desperate situation. It just didn't work out as well for him this time. Nevertheless, I found it a powerful scene, integral to the development of Kylo Ren's current mindset.

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Black Dougal wrote:


Luke's arc was the best part of the movie. There is still a lot of potential quibbles about the direction-why did Luke leave a map if he wanted to be left alone?

I was wondering that, and dug around some.

Luke didn't leave a map. At one point, Han mentions that everyone believes Luke left to find the first Jedi temple. Great; where's that? Not too many people knew. What's missing from this map -- likely, missing from the old Imperial records -- is the last piece. However the Empire got this map, one section of it was lost/damaged/never scouted/etc. That is the thing that was found at the start of the movie and that everyone else needs to find Luke.

Lor Sen Takka was an old anthropologist, and had access to the partial map to Ach-to. (According to Star Wars: The Visual Encyclopedia, Lor San Tekka was given a portion of the map by Skywalker, but yeah, that seems unlikely.) "The Force Awakens" begins with Kylo Ren confronting Tekka about the map. Tekka dies, and the map is hidden inside BB-8.

R2-D2 woke up when it heard someone mention the map fragment and it realized it had the rest in its data banks, maybe from when it plugged into the Death Star.

Silver Crusade

Delightful wrote:


The First Order really needs a nerf.

I think you missed a HUGE one

The leader of the Order being assassinated in his throne room while his apprentice was present.

No confusion as the line of succession is established (one force choke was all that was needed), no slow down at all. Instantly, the Order has a new leader and everybody has bought into that.

Contrast with Star Wars : Emperor dies and Empire IMMEDIATELY collapses.


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pauljathome wrote:
Delightful wrote:


The First Order really needs a nerf.

I think you missed a HUGE one

The leader of the Order being assassinated in his throne room while his apprentice was present.

No confusion as the line of succession is established (one force choke was all that was needed), no slow down at all. Instantly, the Order has a new leader and everybody has bought into that.

Contrast with Star Wars : Emperor dies and Empire IMMEDIATELY collapses.

Though to be fair, that time the heir apparent (guy who could force choke others into submission) also died in the same incident.

Silver Crusade

thejeff wrote:
Though to be fair, that time the heir apparent (guy who could force choke others into submission) also died in the same incident.

Its not at all clear to me that either Darth OR Ren were the heir apparent. A fairly common tactic of dictators is to NOT name a successor since that tends to make their lives a little safer.

In the first Star Wars movie it appeared that Grand Admiral Moff and Vader were approximately equal in rank.

And in this movie it was obvious that the Force Choke was crucial in Ren being given power.

Note - I am NOT really a Star Wars fan. I've watched the 5 (6 including Rogue One) movies and that is about it (I've heard rumours that there were some prequels but choose to think of them only as baseless rumours :-) :-)). So my knowledge is based only on the movies, not on anything else.

But I'd still claim that even if the Line of Succession was ABSOLUTELY clear (eg, take America today where it is VERY clear and automatic) there would have been some confusion that would have lasted more than a few minutes :-). ESPECIALLY given that it was obvious to anybody that there was something suspect in the death of Snoke.

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Just saw it. Honestly expected to hate it from what had been going on online so pleasently suprised that I quite like the movie


pauljathome wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Though to be fair, that time the heir apparent (guy who could force choke others into submission) also died in the same incident.

Its not at all clear to me that either Darth OR Ren were the heir apparent. A fairly common tactic of dictators is to NOT name a successor since that tends to make their lives a little safer.

In the first Star Wars movie it appeared that Grand Admiral Moff and Vader were approximately equal in rank.

And in this movie it was obvious that the Force Choke was crucial in Ren being given power.

Note - I am NOT really a Star Wars fan. I've watched the 5 (6 including Rogue One) movies and that is about it (I've heard rumours that there were some prequels but choose to think of them only as baseless rumours :-) :-)). So my knowledge is based only on the movies, not on anything else.

But I'd still claim that even if the Line of Succession was ABSOLUTELY clear (eg, take America today where it is VERY clear and automatic) there would have been some confusion that would have lasted more than a few minutes :-). ESPECIALLY given that it was obvious to anybody that there was something suspect in the death of Snoke.

Well, I did imply that heir apparent was "guy who could force choke others into submission". Had the Death Star (mark 2) not blown up and had Vader survived and wanted to claim power, he could easily have claimed it the same way Kylo Ren did.

And in the first movie, no one, including Lucas, had any idea who or what Vader really was. If I recall that was later retconned in the Clone Wars as Tarkin being friends with Vader from before Vader.


thejeff wrote:


And in the first movie, no one, including Lucas, had any idea who or what Vader really was. If I recall that was later retconned in the Clone Wars as Tarkin being friends with Vader from before Vader.

Which is the sort of mystery box you need to start unpacking in movie 2. Or at least give the audience the equivilant of shaking a box and hearing something rattle.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
thejeff wrote:


And in the first movie, no one, including Lucas, had any idea who or what Vader really was. If I recall that was later retconned in the Clone Wars as Tarkin being friends with Vader from before Vader.

Which is the sort of mystery box you need to start unpacking in movie 2. Or at least give the audience the equivilant of shaking a box and hearing something rattle.

And finish setting up in a prequel cartoon decades later that the vast majority of the movie audience will never see. :)

But mostly it was just a comment on not drawing too much from Vader's apparent rank in the first movie.

(Personally, I always reconciled it as Vader actually having no military rank, but being the Emperor's right hand man. He can't theoretically give orders, but cross him and you're in deep trouble. Most obviously, no one will question him if he just force chokes you to death, but even for the highest ranking generals, a word from him in the Emperor's ear and your career is toast.)


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:


Holdo sacrificed herself so the cause could survive.

Not at all. Holdo sacrificed herself out of plot contrivance. That ship was perfectly capable of still going straight forward without her ever touching a control (and did so for quite a while). As far as 'the sacred plan' (as presented) went, her staying was completely unnecessary suicide that accomplished nothing.

She only actually gives input to the system when sure turns it around and hyperjumps at the supership, which wasn't part of the plan or seen as even vaguely necessary for several minutes after the transports launched.

Tarik Blackhands wrote:


Luke's arc only really works if he was just some anon hermit honestly. In terms of what we know of him from the OT, it's more or less pure character assassination. I mean, they want me to believe that Luke, the guy who went against Yoda and Obi-Wan to (successfully) redeem Vader, one of the guys who is the reason the Rebel Alliance triumphed, just decides to sod off and let the galaxy burn because he's jaded of the Jedi due one of his students going nuts? I just can't see it. Plus saying the Jedi are a bunch of jerks for monopolizing the Force is pretty bunk. I mean, not like the Sith, the Knights of Sirs Not Appearing in this Film Ren, or however Snoke learned his stuff are Jedi.

There's more I could complain about with Luke's bits, but it's one of those things I chock up to the writer(s) just haphazardly tossing the stuff in the prior movies away because he's got deconstructing to do.

I think it fits pretty well. Yoda tells him that once he starts down the dark side, it will 'forever dominate his destiny.' Well, he did and it does. For all that the end of Return was supposed to be about 'redemption,'* he also gives into his rage and straight up tries to murder the Emperor, and beats down and almost slaughters Vader while in the grip of another rage.

*Lucas' idea of redemption still makes me laugh. Murdering your boss to save your son (because it reminds you of your own torture at your boss's hand) doesn't set anything right after butchering children and years of being a killer and enforcer.

Luke also fails pretty badly and repeatedly during his own training with Yoda- not taking it seriously, botching the lesson of the cave (where his own reflection is showing him his potential for the dark side), the X-wing, and just abandoning his training, it isn't surprisingly that he fails to teach what he never learned.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
thejeff wrote:


And in the first movie, no one, including Lucas, had any idea who or what Vader really was. If I recall that was later retconned in the Clone Wars as Tarkin being friends with Vader from before Vader.

Which is the sort of mystery box you need to start unpacking in movie 2. Or at least give the audience the equivilant of shaking a box and hearing something rattle.

Which is the biggest problem with this film. Johnson severed every plot hook, tie and erg of character development available. There is nothing to set the stage for the next movie other than 'Rebels try to escape from Empire. Again.'

The whole of TLJ is the Hoth escape sequence if they had crashed back on Hoth and needed to give it another go in the next movie. AND somehow fit in wrapping up the whole trilogy in an narratively satisfying fashion, which seems flatly impossible.


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Zhangar wrote:
* Did that ship even have an actual captain charged with running the ship itself? What the hell sort of ship has nothing but admirals on the bridge? That's not what admirals are supposed to be doing.

The captain would have been on the bridge when it got hit and pulled out into space along with everyone else.


Voss wrote:


Not at all. Holdo sacrificed herself out of plot contrivance. That ship was perfectly capable of still going straight forward without her ever touching a control (and did so for quite a while). As far as 'the sacred plan' (as presented) went, her staying was completely unnecessary suicide that accomplished nothing.

She only actually gives input to the system when sure turns it around and hyperjumps at the supership, which wasn't part of the plan or seen as even vaguely necessary for several minutes after the transports launched.

I believe the original plan was to jump through hyperspace once the transports were clear, leading the enemy away from the planet they were fleeing to.

So it wasn't simple "still going straight forward".

Not entirely clear why that couldn't have been an autopilot's job, but Star Wars doesn't seem very automated in general.


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thejeff wrote:


Not entirely clear why that couldn't have been an autopilot's job, but Star Wars doesn't seem very automated in general.

Unless you're using Naboo Starfighters anyway. Those have a pretty robust autopilot, just ask young Annie!


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Kevin Mack wrote:
Just saw it. Honestly expected to hate it from what had been going on online so pleasently suprised that I quite like the movie

That's the thing, I don't hate the movie. It was fun to watch. But I don't love the movie. I desperately wanted to love the movie.

One thing I realized, there are no quotable lines in this movie for me. Maybe if I saw it again a few times something might stick, but for now i draw a blank.

For example, for the last 30 years, anytime someone has told me something is impossible, I have to bite my tongue not to say"it's not impossible. I used to bulls-eye womprats in my T-16 back home and they aren't much bigger than two meters".

hell, even attack of the clones is quotable, in the so bad its good category.

I doubt I will ever quote anything from the Last Jedi. Maybe forget the past, kill it if you have to, if only because that line is so germane to this entire discussion.

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I enjoyed the movie. I don't like it. Some of the things that happened I wish hadn't. But I can certainly quote a few lines, and already have during game nights.

"No one is from nowhere."
"Jakku."
"Okay, that's pretty much nowhere."

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Don't get me wrong it's far from a perfect movie (Not as good as the origonal trilogy but better than the prequals IMO) and there are parts that were pretty cheesy/bad but not much more than from the origonal trilogy.

Spoiler:

My main problem points were how they overall handled Luke (Honestly think it would have worked better if he hadent contemplated killing Kylo and Kylo just went bad anyway) and to a lesser extent the Holdo/poe thing partly the not explaining the plan (I can understand a fear of spies/deserters but at this point Poe is pretty much a poster boy of the rebellion if he's a traitor/deserter your pretty much screwed plan or no plan) but mostly its the really condesending way she speaks to him on there first meeting.

Edit
Oh also the way they wasted Phasmra were she shows up for all of 5 minutes.

Besides those two things most other things are problems they seem to have had from previous films (No idea when it comes to numbers in armies fleet sizes etc), Things that were somewhat blown out of proportion (Way some people were going on about it I expected Holdo to walk on deck in a full on ballgown/wedding dress attire when it's honestly no where near that extreme certainly no worse than what we have seen in other movies.) Or just misunderstanding/misrepresenting other parts (Part where Rose saves Finn people making it out to be a big political message thing where to me at least it seemed like mostly a really conveluted way of her saying she loved Finn.


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Black Dougal wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
Just saw it. Honestly expected to hate it from what had been going on online so pleasently suprised that I quite like the movie

That's the thing, I don't hate the movie. It was fun to watch. But I don't love the movie. I desperately wanted to love the movie.

One thing I realized, there are no quotable lines in this movie for me. Maybe if I saw it again a few times something might stick, but for now i draw a blank.

For example, for the last 30 years, anytime someone has told me something is impossible, I have to bite my tongue not to say"it's not impossible. I used to bulls-eye womprats in my T-16 back home and they aren't much bigger than two meters".

hell, even attack of the clones is quotable, in the so bad its good category.

I doubt I will ever quote anything from the Last Jedi. Maybe forget the past, kill it if you have to, if only because that line is so germane to this entire discussion.

Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.


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thejeff wrote:


Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.

Since they have personal experiences and feelings in there i don't see how you can say that.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
thejeff wrote:


Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.
Since they have personal experiences and feelings in there i don't see how you can say that.

Was it too subtle?


thejeff wrote:
Was it too subtle?

Eyup


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that scene with Fin and Rose keeps going through my head as a scene from DM of the rings.

Fins Player Bob " Alright, screw this. I'm mad we screwed up the hyper drive tracker mission, I'm crashing my salt.. speeder thingy into the giant laser.

Roses player Lilly "..wait. what? Dude, Brans bringing in his old character from the last campaign in like, 3 rounds. And a ship. He's like, level 20 with 3 mythic on top. Evade, evade!

Bob: " Fin doesn't know that though! Full speed ahead!

Lilly "I crash into bob... roll my piloting against his..." looks at his sheet. Snerks. " "piloting" yes! "

DM "also, it took you three weeks to make this character. Not going through that again.. yeah you're safe. The doors open though...

Bran walks in with pizza "what i miss?"


I like Kylo Ren's line of "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

That to me embodies what the sequel trilogy seems to be trying to do but constantly getting cold feet over and going back to well. Repeating iconic scenes and themes from the originals except with some minor "twists".


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thejeff wrote:
Black Dougal wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
Just saw it. Honestly expected to hate it from what had been going on online so pleasently suprised that I quite like the movie

That's the thing, I don't hate the movie. It was fun to watch. But I don't love the movie. I desperately wanted to love the movie.

One thing I realized, there are no quotable lines in this movie for me. Maybe if I saw it again a few times something might stick, but for now i draw a blank.

For example, for the last 30 years, anytime someone has told me something is impossible, I have to bite my tongue not to say"it's not impossible. I used to bulls-eye womprats in my T-16 back home and they aren't much bigger than two meters".

hell, even attack of the clones is quotable, in the so bad its good category.

I doubt I will ever quote anything from the Last Jedi. Maybe forget the past, kill it if you have to, if only because that line is so germane to this entire discussion.

Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.

I have to admit, I can see a lot of gamer types I know using that one.

Shadow Lodge

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Oh, we already do. :)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

@Voss she stayed on the ship in case something went wrong, and most likely to plot another hyperspace jump to lead the First Order ships on one more wild space-goose chase to buy the Rebels more time. It was a solid plan, but something could go wrong, it’s still war.

Lucky thing she didn’t just jump on board with the rest of the Rebels or else everyone would have been reduced to space dust.

Silver Crusade

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I think if Admiral Holdo had instead been played by Admiral Ackbar everyone would have just got on board and been “what a strategic genius”. But because Vice Admiral Amelyn Holdo is new to the audience, feminine and doesn’t acquiesce to the handsome flyboy nerds everywhere feel the need to pick apart her plan and sacrifice.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
I think if Admiral Holdo had instead been played by Admiral Ackbar everyone would have just got on board and been “what a strategic genius”. But because Vice Admiral Amelyn Holdo is new to the audience, feminine and doesn’t acquiesce to the handsome flyboy nerds everywhere feel the need to pick apart her plan and sacrifice.

Not... really.

I'd probably hate it more, actually, because it would have torqued Ackbar's character into an unfamiliar shape- and literally nobody could salvage that plan from its essential flaws

Spoiler:
although once again, Holdo is not the one who got almost everyone killed before they even reached the planet, that is totally on Poe, Finn, and Rose, mostly Poe

'Cause, uh... I have literally nothing against letting Laura Dern kick some butt. Given the plot we got, I'm actually annoyed

Spoiler:
they killed her off, because watching her and Poe deal with the new relationship that the events they went through would have created is a cop-out. She's essentially killed off so Poe has to take a measure of command, which is weaksauce.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
I think if Admiral Holdo had instead been played by Admiral Ackbar everyone would have just got on board and been “what a strategic genius”. But because Vice Admiral Amelyn Holdo is new to the audience, feminine and doesn’t acquiesce to the handsome flyboy nerds everywhere feel the need to pick apart her plan and sacrifice.

I dunno. Holdo only looks bad back because the script demands that she make convoluted decisions and sacrifices because Poe needs to learn a lesson about leadership. Really won't matter if it's her or Ackbar.

Than again, I might have been less frustrated if was Ackbar because at least than a female character won't be fridged for a male character's development.

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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
But because Vice Admiral Amelyn Holdo is new to the audience, feminine and doesn’t acquiesce to the handsome flyboy nerds everywhere feel the need to pick apart her plan and sacrifice.

Honestly I think its less that (I mean going back to the origonal star wars trilogy you've always had female leaders in the rebellion/resistance)

To me It feels more like not enough time spent in film developing the character (I strongly suspect it will be established either via extended cut or books that Admiral Holdo was actually a lot like poe in the lead from the front and not order people to do anything she wouldent be willing to do herself if you get me)


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
I think if Admiral Holdo had instead been played by Admiral Ackbar everyone would have just got on board and been “what a strategic genius”. But because Vice Admiral Amelyn Holdo is new to the audience, feminine and doesn’t acquiesce to the handsome flyboy nerds everywhere feel the need to pick apart her plan and sacrifice.

Fans may have torn the play apart afterwards anyway, but it wouldn't have worked even as well as it did narratively. Too much of the audience would have been going "shut up Poe. Trust Ackbar, he knows what he's doing." Even before we knew there was a plan. Much like if Leia had still been conscious and doing the same things Holdo did.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
I think if Admiral Holdo had instead been played by Admiral Ackbar everyone would have just got on board and been “what a strategic genius”. But because Vice Admiral Amelyn Holdo is new to the audience, feminine and doesn’t acquiesce to the handsome flyboy nerds everywhere feel the need to pick apart her plan and sacrifice.

Hmm... not really, no. Not if Ackbar made the same terrible decisions with the same terrible plan. Ackbar might get half a point over Holdo if they wrote him to not be snide, condescending, and standoffish - you know, the kinds of things that drive impetuous flyboys to concoct their own schemes - but then you're getting into making different characters rather than just genderswapping.

Personally, I'm a little tired of people telling me "you just don't like <newCharacter> because she's strong and female!" I got a lecture when I said Rey was a Mary Sue after TFA, too. It's not all about whether it's a powerful female character. For me, the question is whether it's a good character. And Holdo isn't.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
I think if Admiral Holdo had instead been played by Admiral Ackbar everyone would have just got on board and been “what a strategic genius”. But because Vice Admiral Amelyn Holdo is new to the audience, feminine and doesn’t acquiesce to the handsome flyboy nerds everywhere feel the need to pick apart her plan and sacrifice.

That is a serious accusation you're leveling at people and for what... to defend a plot that is patently ridiculous and (like a lot of this film) tells us one thing while showing us something completely different.

I think its far more likely that the plot was kept in because someone thought the message was important but they couldn't figure out how to make an interesting story match the message. The only reason i'm not SURE that thats what happened is that the director/writer doesn't seem to realize that characters are supposed to DO anything to present the story which shows the message.

The plan isn't being picked apart. It falls apart. And then tries to support poes entire character arc from the broken pieces on the ground.
Faster than light travel is a big part of the universe. You see it in every star wars, including this one. Its integral to the setting, but it stops working because the story needs it to. Small fighters being a menace to much larger ships is a thing they SHOW here with Kylo Renn wrecking some house. They tell you its not an issue after showing you that it is. The military builds rode island sized battle ships for a reason, but they get taken out by passenger cruisers.

Admiral Ackbar shouting "Its a trap..." and laughing as he pressed the button might have saved the arc on it's own. I totally would have forgiven every inconsistency for that joke, but not without getting a face palm and white bronco memes and DEFINITELY not being the lycnhpin for poes character arc.

(wait, is ackbar even male? Does his species have gender?)

No one* has a problem with Leia busting his chops. We know she's earned it and she has a legitimate point "this is a war, you follow orders. There's no way that should have worked you got lucky". It's part of nearly every hot shot action hero, mostly to let the audience now that that sort of thing isn't a normal ability in universe and the heroes just pulled off something amazing.

I get that this film tried to be different, but it tried to send the message by sending the message without actually changing the events in the film and it doesn't work. It's jarring. It's a blatant violation of show don't tell to the degree that it's showing you the exact opposite of what it's telling you.

An ax: Useful not unique (Force awakens)

A wooden ax: unique not useful (this movie)

A lever axe for splitting wood: Useful AND unique.

That last one is HARD to pull off. He tried. He failed spectacularly.

*relatively

Silver Crusade

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
I think if Admiral Holdo had instead been played by Admiral Ackbar everyone would have just got on board and been “what a strategic genius”. But because Vice Admiral Amelyn Holdo is new to the audience, feminine and doesn’t acquiesce to the handsome flyboy nerds everywhere feel the need to pick apart her plan and sacrifice.
That is a serious accusation you're leveling at people and for what
This whole thread.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Admiral Ackbar shouting "Its a trap..." and laughing as he pressed the button might have saved the arc on it's own. I totally would have forgiven every inconsistency for that joke, but not without getting a face palm and white bronco memes and DEFINITELY not being the lycnhpin for poes character arc.

And you're not hurting the claim with this.

Also Holdo sacrificing herself was immaterial to Poe's arc and rank since Leia was awake again, she's in charge.


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Rysky wrote:
This whole thread.

...has been vague, unsubstantiated aspersions on the ideas and character of other posters for voicing and substantiating very specific problems with a film. Like the film, show. Don't tell. handwaving at the thread doesn't make a point, doesn't specify anything, and isn't remotely useful.

Quote:
And you're not hurting the claim with this.

Why? Because I thought it would be funny? Or that a story that isn't trying to take itself seriously has a lower bar for constancy ? None of that shows what Dudemeister is implying.

Quote:
Also Holdo sacrificing herself was immaterial to Poe's arc and rank since Leia was awake again, she's in charge.

The sacrifice is the only thing that convinces Poe she wasn't a traitor. But given how bad the arc was that was the only thing that would do that.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

A) Sorry for being succinct, the whole thread with lots of Grar directed at Holdo.

B) Dudemeister implied people wouldn't have as much of a problem with the scenario if Ackbar had done it, and your post backed that up.

C) "Wasn't a traitor"... where did that come from? And Poe's arc wasn't bad. He went from hotshot pilot in TFA to leader realising he's got people's lives in his hands.


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Luke's arc was truly terrible. This tag is part of my original post from page 11 for those newer posters to this thread.

Spoiler:
The movie should have been called, "The character assassination of Luke Skywalker". In an interview Mark Hamill said he told the director he disagreed with almost every choice in the script. Someone making the movie should have paid attention to that. Luke didn't have to be in this movie at all, the character he is in this movie has no resemblance other than physical to Luke Skywalker. No one, especially Mark Hamill, would ever have predicted that Luke would turn into the biggest chicken s~~~ in the entire galaxy. He runs away from his problems and hides, waiting to die. He doesn't even try to talk to or confront Kylo after his school is destroyed. He lets his guilt and fear control all of his actions, and his entire life for a decade. How does that sound like a Jedi thing to do? He doesn't even attempt to turn Kylo away from the dark side once he knows that Kylo is obviously following Vader's path. Luke never gave up on Vader being able to turn away from the Dark even though everyone that knew Vader, like Yoda and Obiwan, told him it was too late. Luke always believed even someone as terrible as Vader could be redeemed. He gives up on Kylo immediately though. How does that make sense? Not only does he give up on Kylo immediately, but also all the other students that left with Kylo. A whole group of people using the Dark side, running around the galaxy, and Luke runs away in fear. Maybe I could have forgiven that, if only Luke changed when Rey got to him. He finds out Kylo killed Han, and he barely seems to care. He doesn't care enough to really train Rey, 5 minutes with Yoda would have taught Rey more than what Luke taught her. He doesn't care enough to go back with Rey and try to stop Kylo. Leia is probably next on the Empires' list but Luke doesn't care enough to try and help his sister. How is that Luke Skywalker? They have a chance to make him do something truly epic and memorable when he confronts Kylo, but nope, can't have Luke be awesome at any point. He has to be a pathetic shell of a man. He could have had a spectacular fight with Kylo that we could have remembered for decades, showing us how he has grew in the Force over the years, but no, just a lame trick. I would have preferred if Kylo still won, but at least show us something of worth. Luke's death scene after an epic battle where he's using his father's lightsaber, and being killed by his own family, give us something to remember other than a cheap trick.

People need to stop claiming this fan fiction about there might have been spies on the ships so Holdo couldn't tell Poe or the fleet her plan. Nothing in the movie supports this at all. Provide us with one example from anyone or anything in the movie, I dare you. No one tries to do anything about possible spies either. If there were spies, when Holdo finally does tell her plan and people get onto transports, the spies could just radio the First Order the plan anyway. Holdo not telling Poe and others was just stupid.

I'm also with Big Norse Wolf on the whole Poe sacrificing the bombers wasn't a bad thing, despite what the movie tries to claim. Imagine he follows orders and calls off the bombers, they would then jump into hyperspace to run. The First Order just follows them. Now what happens? If they follow the movie story they keep going until their ships run out of gas and the First Order kills them all anyway, but now with their big bad ship still intact. Unless of course the bombers go on a suicide mission to destroy that Dreadnought now that running isn't an option, like Poe wanted them to, either way they still all die. So how bad was Poe's decision really?

It's too bad they didn't know that all it takes is one bomber to do a hyperspace jump into the Dreadnought. Knowing is half the battle I hear.


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Rysky wrote:
A) Sorry for being succinct, the whole thread with lots of Grar directed at Holdo.

..does not make dudemeisters point at all. For him to have a point, the grarg would have to be unjustified and it's not...

Quote:
B) Dudemeister implied people wouldn't have as much of a problem with the scenario if Ackbar had done it, and your post backed that up.

IF Ackbar had done it AND it wasn't load bearing for Poe. Because oddly enough Holdo can't pull off the it's a trap meme nearly as well as Ackbar can.

Quote:
C) "Wasn't a traitor"... where did that come from?

One of the justifications for poe going around the admiral like he did was he didn't know if he could trust her. The kamakazi run showed that he could.

Quote:


And Poe's arc wasn't bad. He went from hotshot pilot in TFA to leader realizing he's got people's lives in his hands.

It was a mess.

Being a hotshot pilot disobeying orders is wrong... except that it got results and pretty much saved the fleet.

In order to succeed, trust your superiors and sit in your bunk doing nothing. (often applicable in real life. very boring for a movie though)

Send your soldiers out to die to buy time. Then call them back so they can be saved by Luke ex machina. I have no problem with luke showiing up (getting him is the plot of movie 1 and the good parts of II), but you can't have characters plan on luke showing up at all much less at the exact second that he did.

This is star WARS. This is a war, people are going to die to fulfill an objective. This is not space camp where if anyone winds up as ceiling sausage you have royally screwed up. If you're going to do an arc where a leader learns to not throw their troops into the meat grinder in a war movie (even a space war movie), you have to show that person being overly calous with the troops lives from a military point of view and the problems that causes. Since the rebellion is down to the passenger capacity of a millenium falcon anyway, that didn't happen.

Hey, everyone, i think the fox knows something...

Crystal Fox Alpha demonstrated more leadership than he did by staying behind until the clueless humans noticed him and lead them out of the tunnel.

Crystal fox for grand admiral 34 ab!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
. For him to have a point, the grarg would have to be unjustified and it's not...

*shakes head*

I’m done with this thread.


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The whole "getting people killed" thing is one of the main gripes I have with TLJ.

To me, Star Wars always was (among other things) about heroics in the face of unsurmountable odds. You know, like, attacking a battle station with a handful of fighters. Infiltrating a crime lord's palace to rescue a friend. Saying "hello there" to a deadly lightsaber-wielding cyborg and his army. Getting the plans for the aforementioned battle station under great cost.

But now, TLJ comes around the corner and not only makes our heroes' plan fail (which is fine), but as a direct consequence, lead to the deaths of hundreds. It's like a crappy game master.


I'd have to re-watch, but I think the whole idea of the Star Destroyer support for the TIE fighters is that their big guns were able to punch holes in the shields of the opposing capital ships, which is what allows the TIEs to do damage on their run. Once the Rebel ships pulled out of the Star Destroyers' effective range, the TIEs no longer had the ability to damage the Rebel ships.

Again, there's a lot of hand-waving involving the actualities of space combat in a universe where star fighters behave like atmospheric fighter jets, you have to travel horizontally along a trench on the surface of a space station to reach your target, rather than coming straight at it vertically and a collision from a spinning-out-of-control damaged star fighter is consistently far more dangerous to enemy ships than one actively firing its weapons.


This thread reminds me about a thread regarding a Paladin that I participated in last year. The circular, endless argument that never gets resolved. Furthermore, I'm not feeling well. So, I guess I'm leaving this thread, also.

Liberty's Edge

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I really like the movie. I didn’t love it 100%, but I liked it a lot.

I think the problem is that some people want to argue thier point and convince folks that thier opinion is correct. The problem is, this is entertainment and it’s all just opinion.

Some people didn’t like the movie, and that’s fine! Some people hated the movie, and that’s fine too, it really is!

But a LOT of people liked the movie, many even loved it ... and that’s cool too!

I just never understand why there’s always a contingent of people that feel they can’t like / dislike something without trying to convince others that they are “right” about liking / disliking said thing.


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Marc Radle wrote:
I just never understand why there’s always a contingent of people that feel they can’t like / dislike something without trying to convince others that they are “right” about liking / disliking said thing.

Question. Why did the studio admit it needed to change direction from the prequels, and then do so?

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The problem is, this is entertainment and it’s all just opinion.

I do not believe that's the case. And I actively hate this sentiment.

Enjoyment of art is subjective on some level. I really don't get the mona lisa. I really do like charmer of serpents. But on some level the mona lisa is fundamentally better than this stick figure penguin porg

<0
/|\
^~

But throwing paint through an engine or a blank canvas or a dot on a page is not art. Pretending it is, pretending it's profound, is silly and pretentious.

That's what a good chunk of this movie was to me. We're going to take away characterization. The ability of the characters to control the plot. Instead the plot will control the characters. We're going to take every plot thread in the previous movie and replace it with.. nothing. And make sure no one replaces them with anything.

Like changing direction from the prequels, if the fans want something different we need to ask for it.

Silver Crusade

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Rysky wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
. For him to have a point, the grarg would have to be unjustified and it's not...

*shakes head*

I’m done with this thread.

Whether or not the garg is justified please to point where the garg is sexist in nature.

Not liking a character who happens to be female is NOT sexist


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:


I do not believe that's the case. And I actively hate this sentiment.

Enjoyment of art is subjective on some level. I really don't get the mona lisa. I really do like charmer of serpents. But on some level the mona lisa is fundamentally better than this stick figure penguin porg

<0
/|\
^~

But throwing paint through an engine or a blank canvas or a dot on a page is not art. Pretending it is, pretending it's profound, is silly and pretentious.

Art is subjective on pretty much all levels. That you find paint sprayed through an engine to not be art while others do just underlines that fact. Art, as I see it, is fundamentally having the chutzpah to do something and present it as art whether it's a portrait of a model as with the Mona Lisa, something more abstract like a Jackson Pollock, an experimental form of composition like blowing paint through an engine, or a single point of color on an otherwise white canvas. In all cases, it's an artist putting ideas out there for others to view, consider, and ponder over.

You're free to set your own limits, but you don't get to tell other people what is and isn't art without the rest of us telling you you're full of BS.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
I think if Admiral Holdo had instead been played by Admiral Ackbar everyone would have just got on board and been “what a strategic genius”. But because Vice Admiral Amelyn Holdo is new to the audience, feminine and doesn’t acquiesce to the handsome flyboy nerds everywhere feel the need to pick apart her plan and sacrifice.

mm. Good point. I will not get into some of the disgusting things I have seen online regarding not just the character, but the actress. It is possible to just dislike her and think she came up with(or followed) a bad idea, but I would argue this is more because the character is new and the only fanbase that hates new characters more than Star Wars is DC comics.


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pauljathome wrote:
Rysky wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
. For him to have a point, the grarg would have to be unjustified and it's not...

*shakes head*

I’m done with this thread.

Whether or not the garg is justified please to point where the garg is sexist in nature.

Not liking a character who happens to be female is NOT sexist

As I said before, I will not link the stuff I've seen elsewhere.


8 people marked this as a favorite.

The whole sexism argument is frankly about as worthless as it comes. This is the internet. Anyone can find some no-name blogger or community of 20 odd people on tumblr to lament how horrible it is that there's a woman admiral, or it's racist for Finn to hook up with Rose and not Rey, or that Han really enslaved Chewbacca with that life-debt thing.

Morons aren't some new phenomena even if the internet made it easier to find them and pointing out "Well SOMEONE (or even DOZENS of people) said it, so obviously a significant amount of those complaining about Holdo/Finn/Han must think the same" is pretty intellectually dishonest, especially when we've had plenty of level headed arguments on this thread about why Holdo's behavior and/or plan are stupid.

And before the hypothetical "Oh, but the nerds wouldn't complain if it was Bob Holdo or Ackbar," gets brought up again, unless you happen to have a dimension hopping device to hop toward the version of Earth where that happened, it's a useless hypothetical.

Lets keep things classy when armchair admiraling our movies about laser sword monks and pew pew ships mmmkay?

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