Star Wars The Last Jedi


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Black,

Good! Let the hate follow through you!

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I saw it today and, honestly, I really enjoyed it.

With that said, I think the science was a little iffy.


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The thing about First Order holograms is that they're all just a bunch of Snoke and Mirrors. :D :D :D

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I never said how I liked it in my earlier posts, so here it is:

8.5/10


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John Napier 698 wrote:
The thing about First Order holograms is that they're all just a bunch of Snoke and Mirrors. :D :D :D

Wait, are you saying the First Order is led by a Huxter?


Green milk....almost as good as the blue milk Aunt Beru used to get for me...

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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I thought of an explanation which would fix two of the issues with the movie. I doubt they'll actually explain this officially, but at least it will let me internally reconcile it.

Spoiler:

In the visual guide to The Last Jedi, it describes the hyperspace tracking system as having a hyperspace field around it which it uses to track ships in hyperspace.

What if that is why the cruiser to lightspeed as a weapon worked? Under normal circumstances, it simply wouldn't - you'd either jump to hyperspace before impact or you'd impact it at sub-light speed (assuming you aren't shot out of space first.) But with the hyperspace tracker on, what if that device's hyperspace field acts as a beacon for a ship trying to intentionally hyperspace to that spot and allows targeting your ship as a weapon right to the hyperspace tracker, which would never work under normal circumstances? If that were the case, it would a) explain why hyperspace tracking was never successfully developed by the Empire and widely used and b) why hyperspace as a weapon was never used, and doesn't have to be a viable tactic in the future, since after the debacle with it in the Last Jedi, I don't think anyone would want to risk using hyperspace tracking again once that flaw were known.


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That's a great explanation. I would fully endorse it. And if they just thought to put a few lines of dialog into the movie with some snotnose Wesley crusher type coming up with that, it would have greatly enhanced the movie.

I seriously think most of the posters on Paizo could craft better scripts than the crap that Hollywood churns out.


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Also, Luke, wipe you mouth and beard dude, seriously...

Someone has been on that island a BIT too long :)


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I have to ask, was anyone else really bothered by the design of those ridiculously bad bombers that the resistance used at the start of the movie? I could spend an hour ranting about those things. Starting with: Who would use gravity reliant bombers in SPACE and why would you ever design a bomber that required you to eject your crew into space to drop the bombs?

That's combined with the fact that the things were basically sitting ducks and powder kegs rolled into one.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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I loved the bombers :)


Matrix Dragon wrote:

I have to ask, was anyone else really bothered by the design of those ridiculously bad bombers that the resistance used at the start of the movie? I could spend an hour ranting about those things. Starting with: Who would use gravity reliant bombers in SPACE and why would you ever design a bomber that required you to eject your crew into space to drop the bombs?

That's combined with the fact that the things were basically sitting ducks and powder kegs rolled into one.

YES. I'm just assuming that the bombs are pushed out of the racks rather than actually being gravity-fed, just to get past that.

And vacuum's recently become more of a "suggestion" than an actual rule, so the open bay doors aren't really much worse than that one scene later.

But two crew members, and only one big red button? Why would you have that button on something that isn't even tethered down? Why would you not have a duplicate down below with the person BY THE BOMBS? Why are the bombs not armed during the launch process, rather than risking <spoiler>?

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
I loved the bombers :)

Like a good chunk of the movie... the concept is good, the visual is impressive, and the actual execution is lacking.

Grand Lodge

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Since Lucas based all the space battle in SW on WW2 air combat footage, it's probably best to view all the fighter/bomber action through that lens.

Capital ships are surrogates for naval ships and aircraft carriers, so there's that to consider as well.

If space combat looked "realistic" (something we don't have a clear understanding of anyway), it would probably look so unfamiliar that it would feel jarring.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Skeld wrote:
Since Lucas based all the space battle in SW on WW2 air combat footage, it's probably best to view all the fighter/bomber action through that lens.

Eh.... when you already had bomber perfection* with the Y-Wings (clearly based on WWII torpedo bombers, which, in space, is way better than level bombing since it's directed fire), making up a new, cumbersome level bomber with a suicidally huge vertical profile is... I mean, I'm one of those guys who always thought Boba Fett's Slave I was a HORRIBLE design for a ship meant to engage in combat, and these manage to be even worse designed for evasive maneuvers or being hard to target. When you make a B-29 look like a nimble hard-to-target craft, you're pretty much a sitting duck against anyone who can reach you to shoot back.

Note, however, that the TIE Bombers in Empire also dropped bombs like level bombers during their pounding of the asteroid field, so there's precedence for the method- I just found the design ludicrous.

* Shut up, they're perfect and I love them.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Y-Wings were limited on the number bombs they carried, and they were small bombs.
Other than them firing missiles in Rogue One I don't remember ever seeing the Y-Wings actually dropping any bombs.
These new bombers held hundreds of large bombs.
At a guess, I would say almost 1000 the size of old WWII sea mines.
When going against something massive and shielded out the @$$, more is better.

Silver Crusade

Also (and I think I’ve aready said this) the bombers they used were the ones they had. I don’t think it was a case of we can use A or B so let’s use A, they only had A.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Charles Scholz wrote:
Y-Wings were limited on the number bombs they carried, and they were small bombs.

They could also fly faster than a jogging sumo wrestler and didn't have a vertical profile you'd be able to hit with a thrown softball...

Quote:
These new bombers held hundreds of large bombs.

Which for some reason they stored in gigantic vertical racks?

And for this sort of mission, wouldn't one LARGE bomb per ship have been preferable?

And so on and so on.

Grand Lodge

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Honestly, the idea that the dreadnought could be taken out by a single payload was fairly absurd.


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Saw it, liked the humorous moments and eye candy, hated the storyline.

Some of the dislikes:

Gravity-bombers in space, flying in first gear through molasses. Stupid.

The Leia-as-Space-Jesus scene completely jumped the shark.

They completely re-wrote everything Luke was about, neutered him, made him whiney and killed him off (yea, let's kill off the LIVING stars that can move the story forward and have the dead one - no disrespect intended - live through the episode.) Mark Hamill has even sounded off on this, stating that, "is not his Luke Skywalker," in the movie.

The impetuous Commander who just hours before thought better and decided his people needed to live other day on the salt flats turns completely against that mindset while in space.

The Admiral who decided to keep her people COMPLETELY in the dark, having them despair and lose hope (even when directly asked) - WTF? No novice leader would do that, much less a "legendary Admiral." And did the actress wander in from some other movie? That was a ball gown for crying out loud.

Suddenly, despite being knocked out for much of the movie and no time to learn, Finn can pilot. Even though the fact that he does not know how is a MAIN PLOT FEATURE in the previous movie.

Likes: (to end on a positive note)

Glad the under-developed Snoke and Phasma are both out of the series.

ALL the porg scenes were awesome, especially showing how they were starting to infest the Falcon.

Luke tossing the lightsaber.

Poe's delaying tactic with the First Order Admiral, "Look, if he's not available, I'll wait..."


long list of dislikes followed by liking furducks lol


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Y WINGS FOR LIFE

FURDUCK SQUADRON

WOOOOOOOOOOOOO


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Honestly, the idea that the dreadnought could be taken out by a single payload was fairly absurd.

I think the only thing those new bombers had going for them was the absurd payload size, lol.


I'm with Freehold on this. After some considerable thought, more than ten minutes, I've concluded that Y-Wings could have fit the bill. Here's how. The Y-Wings could have had an external bomb module mounted on a hard-point on the underside of its fuselage. At the cost of some speed and maneuverability, a Y-Wing could have carried half the bomb payload, while risking the life of the Pilot, and perhaps a Gunner/bombardier.

Scarab Sages

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
mardaddy wrote:

Suddenly, despite being knocked out for much of the movie and no time to learn, Finn can pilot. Even though the fact that he does not know how is a MAIN PLOT FEATURE in the previous movie.

Finn doesn't know how to fly a Tie-Fighter.

In a deleted scene from Force Awakens he drove a ground speeder after they "rescued" Rey.
Spoiler:
The craft he was piloting at the battle on the planet was a type of ground speeder. At a guess, I would say it is some sort of tug for hauling tons of salt that was mined.


Getting nitpicky there, Charles.

Ground speeder TOTALLY does not equal spacecraft, even if on, "deleted scenes." (isn't there a reason it was deleted? Oh, yea, because they need to trim running time and/or it does not further the story or does not fit in with the established story.)

It's like saying LCAC pilots (who are Navy Chiefs) can totally pilot the space shuttle, no probs.


Freehold DM wrote:
Haters gonna hate.

This might be the greatest self-burn I've ever witnessed. I really hope it was purposeful because damn... that's funny.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Honestly, the idea that the dreadnought could be taken out by a single payload was fairly absurd.

perhaps they just don't tell the pilots that they're on a kamakazi mission? So the bombs and stuff are just there to get them into position.

I mean given how effective flying the ship into another ship is you want all of your pilots doing it....


Spoiler:
I think it was pretty clear finn did NOT know how to drive that thing. He was weaving all over the place to start with pretty much just went turn left turn right. its not like he had the thing doing backflips.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Honestly, the idea that the dreadnought could be taken out by a single payload was fairly absurd.

Yeah, it's way harder than taking out a space station the size of a moon with a single pair of proton torpedoes.

Liberty's Edge

mardaddy wrote:

Saw it, liked the humorous moments and eye candy, hated the storyline.

Some of the dislikes:

Probably should have put all that behind spoiler tags!


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Doomed Hero wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Haters gonna hate.
This might be the greatest self-burn I've ever witnessed. I really hope it was purposeful because damn... that's funny.

i was being silly, yes.


Charles Scholz wrote:
mardaddy wrote:

Suddenly, despite being knocked out for much of the movie and no time to learn, Finn can pilot. Even though the fact that he does not know how is a MAIN PLOT FEATURE in the previous movie.

Finn doesn't know how to fly a Tie-Fighter.

In a deleted scene from Force Awakens he drove a ground speeder after they "rescued" Rey.
** spoiler omitted **

iirc, tie fighter piloting was incredibly difficult to keep the chance of mutinies or other things going wrong low.


So am I still in the minority that somehow the First Order will harness the nerd rage/table flipping from some die hard SW fans to build a new Death Star powered by their rage?


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Freehold DM wrote:
Charles Scholz wrote:
mardaddy wrote:

Suddenly, despite being knocked out for much of the movie and no time to learn, Finn can pilot. Even though the fact that he does not know how is a MAIN PLOT FEATURE in the previous movie.

Finn doesn't know how to fly a Tie-Fighter.

In a deleted scene from Force Awakens he drove a ground speeder after they "rescued" Rey.
** spoiler omitted **
iirc, tie fighter piloting was incredibly difficult to keep the chance of mutinies or other things going wrong low.

^This

The TIE design is deliberately bad.

1) Almost zero peripheral vision. TIE pilots cannot see anything but what is in front of them. They have to rely on computer readouts to show them where other ships are in relation to them and have to rely on their "mother ship" to coordinate attack patterns. This forces TIE pilots into an instinctively subservient/cooperative position. (Contrast this with all the X-Wing pilots, who work together well, but are also pretty much all hot-shot individualists ready to break ranks and pull crazy stuff at a moment's notice).

2) No hyperspace drive, shields or life support systems. Heck, they don't even have landing gear. They are dirt cheap to replace, and completely useless for anything except short range ship to ship combat in space. The Empire didn't even bother repairing them. If a TIE returns damaged, the whole ship gets scrapped and a new one is rolled out to replace it (this might not be true of the weirder models of TIE like the Interceptor or Bomber. I don't remember).

Even as a maintenance tech, Finn would have had almost zero time spent with a TIE.


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Thomas Seitz wrote:
So am I still in the minority that somehow the First Order will harness the nerd rage/table flipping from some die hard SW fans to build a new Death Star powered by their rage?

Minority perhaps, but you're not alone.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber
Bill Dunn wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Honestly, the idea that the dreadnought could be taken out by a single payload was fairly absurd.
Yeah, it's way harder than taking out a space station the size of a moon with a single pair of proton torpedoes.

Oh, did they hit the exhaust port?


I'm more skeptical about Poe being able to singlehandedly take out all of the dreadnought's point defense turrets than I am about one bomber being able to destroy the ship. That was a pretty huge payload, which is part of why I don't think a Y-wing would have worked, even if they had them. The idea that they would have dumped all of those bombs on it is just plain overkill though.


Mahorfeus wrote:
The idea that they would have dumped all of those bombs on it is just plain overkill though.

To quote Red Letter Media on this:

"So 1 bomber did the job. Did they have to send in 30 of them?"

"Well 29 of them got blowed up."

"They were smart, they knew all of these people were going to #&^$ing die."


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The most disappointing Star Wars since the Phantom Menace. There are so many instances of bad writing/stupidity in this movie it's hard to know where to start. This is going to take awhile...

Spoiler:
I'll start with some of the basic, logical aspects of stupidity and bad writing. At the start of the movie, they have bombers which have to drop their payloads straight down like it's 1942. Dropping things into space and having them fall down... riiiighhhhtt... I guess targeting computers no longer exist? Bombing ships that can't drop their payloads with a button from the cockpit, more 1942 technology. They have intelligent droids that can fix/pilot ships, but missile guidance technology is beyond them somehow. Speaking of piloting ships, why does an Admiral have to stay behind to pilot a ship straight? No droids for that? Auto pilot doesn't exist somehow? In a world with Hyper Drive, Death Stars, and droid armies, no auto pilot on large, expensive ships? How about Admiral Ackbar go down with the ship, instead of this brand new, meaningless character?

The Vice Admiral not telling Poe or anyone important the plan, makes sense how? She herself knows he tends to not follow orders, so when everyone is on the verge of dying, instead of telling him the plan, she just orders him to do nothing but wait while people are dying on other ships. Why would anyone expect him to do just that? Someone mentioned maybe she was worried about spies. Nothing in the movie suggests that at all. Even if there were spies, no one tries to do anything about it. When she evacuates the ship everyone gets told what the plan is. If there were spies, they could have just told the Empire right then anyway, nothing would have changed.

The movie should have been called, "The character assassination of Luke Skywalker". In an interview Mark Hamill said he told the director he disagreed with almost every choice in the script. Someone making the movie should have paid attention to that. Luke didn't have to be in this movie at all, the character he is in this movie has no resemblance other than physical to Luke Skywalker. No one, especially Mark Hamill, would ever have predicted that Luke would turn into the biggest chicken s%~@ in the entire galaxy. He runs away from his problems and hides, waiting to die. He doesn't even try to talk to or confront Kylo after his school is destroyed. He let's his guilt and fear control all of his actions, and his entire life for decades. How does that sound like a Jedi thing to do? He doesn't even attempt to turn Kylo away from the dark side once he knows that Kylo is obviously following Vader's path. Luke never gave up on Vader being able to turn away from the Dark even though everyone that knew Vader, like Yoda and Obiwan, told him it was too late. Luke always believed even someone as terrible as Vader could be redeemed. He gives up on Kylo immediately though. How does that make sense? Not only does he give up on Kylo immediately, but also all the other students that left with Kylo. A whole group of people using the Dark side, running around the galaxy, and Luke runs away in fear. Maybe I could have forgiven that, if only Luke changed when Rey got to him. He finds out Kylo killed Han, and he barely seems to care. He doesn't care enough to really train Rey, 5 minutes with Yoda would have taught Rey more than what Luke taught her. He doesn't care enough to go back with Rey and try to stop Kylo. Leia is probably next on the Empires' list but Luke doesn't care enough to try and help his sister. How is that Luke Skywalker? They have a chance to make him do something truly epic and memorable when he confronts Kylo, but nope, can't have Luke be awesome at any point. He has to be a pathetic shell of a man. He could have had a spectacular fight with Kylo that we could have remembered for decades, showing us how he has grew in the Force over the years, but no, just a lame trick. I would have preferred if Kylo still won, but at least show us something of worth. Luke's death scene after an epic battle where he's using his father's lightsaber, and being killed by his own family, give us something to remember other than a cheap trick.

This is the 2nd movie in a trilogy, and it builds on almost nothing from the first movie. The many unanswered questions from the first one are nearly completely ignored. Who is Snoke? Doesn't matter he's gone. Knights of Ren? Doesn't matter they're mentioned only in passing. Phasma has a 30 second fight scene, whoop de friggin doo.
They cast Briene of Tarth for one 30 second scene. They could have just put a stunt man in a suit and had her voice over it. General Hux is even more of a joke in this one. Poe and Finn seemed good together, but let's separate them for the whole movie and make some new person go on a mission with Finn instead. A mission that accomplishes nothing, leads nowhere, and wastes 30 minutes. Rey was the main character, but not anymore, it's all Kylo Ren now. Rey is barely any better off for making the trip to see Luke, she's almost exactly the same as she was at the end of Force Awakens. She could have died and the story would barely have changed any. Kylo didn't need her to kill Snoke, and nothing important to the main story happened on the island. Chewie could have just went there and gotten as much out of Luke. We saw Kylo stop a blaster bolt in mid air and paralyze people, how about we get to see more Force abilities we've never seen before? Nah, can't have our Force users doing anything impressive. He's in one fight scene the entire movie, and we can't see him use the Force at all in that scene too.

The Force Awakens had to set the stage for the trilogy and give us some mystery, that's what first movies do. The next movie is supposed to expand on the first, that's how sequels work. Not toss it aside and tell us to get over it. This isn't a stand alone Star Wars adventure. I could accept that Force Awakens got too caught up in nostalgia and was too derivative, but it was meant to clean our palate after the Phantom Menace trilogy and remind of us how Star Wars felt before. This movie made a left turn just for the sake of being different. Don't try to tell me it didn't want to follow the old Star Wars plot lines when it basically took us back to Hoth for it's climax.

There's more but I'm going to stop. Wasted opportunities and lack of anything memorable sums it up in general. I'll just ignore flying Leia, Rey and Kylo's Force skype calls across the galaxy, Finn almost making a meaningful and dramatic sacrifice only to be saved, ugh. This is a long enough post, I apologize if it was too much and hard to get thru.

I liked the Force Awakens and Rogue One. They weren't perfect but I can watch them more than once without problems. This one I don't want to see again.


So....not best star war?


I think it is good for fans to have the story advancing. I´m turning into a fan actualy, for the first time, im watching star war movies (the new ones) and don´t feel bored, yawning, or something.

ep 1 to 3 were so bad, that i thanks to disney to take it away from gl.
the first trilogy i didn´t watch it until my 20s and man, they are boring (i love old movies, and those aren´t in the list)

So, now, we have a star wars movies that look like star wars (at least how I pictured in my mind when a fan told me what it was about)


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Honestly, the idea that the dreadnought could be taken out by a single payload was fairly absurd.

Dude, The Force was with them. Duh!

;P


Juda de Kerioth wrote:

I think it is good for fans to have the story advancing. I´m turning into a fan actualy, for the first time, im watching star war movies (the new ones) and don´t feel bored, yawning, or something.

ep 1 to 3 were so bad, that i thanks to disney to take it away from gl.
the first trilogy i didn´t watch it until my 20s and man, they are boring (i love old movies, and those aren´t in the list)

So, now, we have a star wars movies that look like star wars (at least how I pictured in my mind when a fan told me what it was about)

I wish these forums had a "I don't like" button as well as a "I like" button.


It's easy, Bjørn. Just go up one directory level, Movies, in this case. Find the thread you don't like, and click on the NULL symbol ( the zero with the diagonal slash ). That thread will now be hidden from you. That's as much of a dislike button that this website has.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Nearly all the technology in SW is ridiculous for one reason or another. The fact that it makes no realistic sense is part of the "suspension of disbelief" needed to enjoy the movie. Everyone has differing levels of nonsense they're willing to ignore. I'm fortunate in that I can ignore a lot, which is probably why I enjoyed it.


I've seen it twice already. I've payed good money and parked my butt numb, so I've earned the right to criticize TLJ!

I think with JarJar Abrams as Exec Producer there should've been obligatory continuity between TLJ and TFA. Especially among the main characters.

Spoiler:
As for the Kamikaze Hyperspace Fleet Bomb. Well, that can certainly be explained away with technobabble. What anoyed me was that Akbar dies like a chump getting flash frozen into a pile of space flotsam. Why didn't he survive the bridge attack and pilot the Kamikaze attack instead of Admiral Ball Gown?

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Spoiler:
Artificial gravity? Sure, no problem, makes perfect sense.

Giant hangar-size permeable force fields that let ships in and out but somehow keep in air in? Sounds great, no problems here.

A ship that combines both those things to launch bombs at the enemy, in a direct stylistic callback to the inspirations of the original film? UTTERLY RIDICULOUS! WORST STAR WAR EVER!

Dark Archive

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The Supremacy cross section.


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Quark Blast wrote:


Spoiler:
As for the Kamikaze Hyperspace Fleet Bomb. Well, that can certainly be explained away with technobabble. What anoyed me was that Akbar dies like a chump getting flash frozen into a pile of space flotsam. Why didn't he survive the bridge attack and pilot the Kamikaze attack instead of Admiral Ball Gown?

Spoiler:
Maybe because the actor who voiced him died last year.

AdmiralAckbar wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:
So am I still in the minority that somehow the First Order will harness the nerd rage/table flipping from some die hard SW fans to build a new Death Star powered by their rage?
Minority perhaps, but you're not alone.

Thank you Admiral. Also it's not a trap.

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