Fighter vs Spellcaster Grudge match (Inactive)

Game Master Balancer

This is the arena for the thread, Fighter vs Spellcaster


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Jadis is always happy to take on any opponent.

Grand Lodge

Oh nameless high cleric, you're always such a laugh.
Catches up on the thread
Right so that ended anticlimactically, oh well. In case anyone is wondering I allowed the caster to know the duration of their timestop since in table games I play at DM's allow casters to know that. If there's any objections please let me know.

So that's Round one to the Caster. Round two, if everyone is willing to go for it.


I've submitted my Monk to Balancer. Whenever Jadis is ready. Are you still yielding initiative?


You will have to wait and see.


Male Human Expert 1 Warrior 1

Looking at the campaign rules, I will need to make some adjustments I should have my caster ready by tomorrow.


Male Human Brain 13th Wizard

I've submitted a 20th Unchained Rogue.


Has anyone submitted a rage lance pounce barbarian. It has the best chance to succeed in a combat like this.


Jadis is ready to go again whenever our GM is unless someone else wants to step up on the caster side.


Male Human Brain 13th Wizard

I'm also ready to go whenever.


20 Monk is ready to go too.


Male Human Expert 1 Warrior 1

Wiz Bang the not totally optimized Wizard is ready to play. (But built reasonably)


Here I am


Wiz bang want to try out the Elf fighter I made? I guess I should give these characters names....


Male Human Expert 1 Warrior 1

Sure :)


Male Human Expert 1 Warrior 1

Should we stumble on over to the gameplay thread or shout we wait for the balancer.


I think we can at least kick it off ourselves.


Male Human Expert 1 Warrior 1

sounds good
I will PM the DM with the spells that I have up and then post in gameplay.

Grand Lodge

Feel free to kick it off whenever you guys want, I'm just here to manage disputes. Though only one duel at a time please, we don't want to clog up the thread.


Maybe theo isn't completely worthless afterall! He survived a round!


Rules question:

Quote:
On escaping or leaving the maze, the subject reappears where it had been when the maze spell was cast.

I don't think wish would get around this.

The only listed exception would be plane shift, which wouldn't guarantee he gets back in the arena.

Edit: Posted too soon. Transport travelers option looks like it works.


Plane Shift lands you 50-500 miles away for your target location.


Reading Wall of Suppression it repeatedly talks about effects passing through it. Does it apply to effects in place where it is cast?


Also just to note, Herolab always gets benefit from spell perfection wrong. You should always manually check this.


I'm a little confused on the wall too.

Quote:
The wall blocks line of effect, so no spell or effect can pass through the wall, but it does not block line of sight. Magic items or spell effects with a higher caster level than yours are unaffected by the wall of suppression. The wall does not affect artifacts, anything stemming from the direct action of a deity, or similarly powerful sorts of magic.

Blocks line of effect, but spell effects of a higher level can pass through. To me, that means spells which have the Effect line, such as Rays. As is, I don't think you can target Theo with Possession because there is no LOE to do so.

Whats our GM say?


Line of Effect is a term from the magic chapter which relates to more than just rays. See HERE.

Interestingly, Possession requires neither line of effect nor line of sight.


andreww wrote:

Line of Effect is a term from the magic chapter which relates to more than just rays. See HERE.

Right. Many spells require line of effect to select a target. I read the wall of suppression as blocking line of effect for ALL spells, but spells which are of the Effect type can go through provided they are a higher level than the wall.

Interestingly, Possession requires neither line of effect nor line of sight.

That settles that. No LOE needed, no problem.

Quote:
When you transfer your soul upon casting, your body appears to be dead.

It appears the wizard has died, do I win? /kidding


Male Human Expert 1 Warrior 1

Hmm, that is a good question, I am not sure of what happens if Wall of Suppression is cast on top of you but you don't move.

But as far as line of effect goes, Andreww has the right of it.


Male Human Expert 1 Warrior 1

Regardless, though as long as my spells have a higher caster level than the wall of suppression, they are unaffected by the wall. Because I lowered my caster level before casting the wall, all of my other spells are unaffected by the wall completely.

magic chapter CRB wrote:
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.


MichaelCullen wrote:

Regardless, though as long as my spells have a higher caster level than the wall of suppression, they are unaffected by the wall. Because I lowered my caster level before casting the wall, all of my other spells are unaffected by the wall completely.

magic chapter CRB wrote:
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

I understand your reading, and why you did it that way, but disagree. Magic items with a CL greater than the wall, or spell EFFECTS cast greater than the wall, are unaffected. I read this as:

Quote:
Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.

If the spell is not an Effect, but needs Line Of Effect, then it would be stopped. Since possession does not require LOE, and it is a higher CL than the wall, it goes through anyway.

Most targetted spells require LOE, and would be stopped even if they were a higher CL (a CL 21 Hold Person for example would not have LOE to the target, and could not be cast).


Male Human Expert 1 Warrior 1

Interesting reading, good thing I picked possession. That was almost purely by luck.


Male Human Expert 1 Warrior 1

I probably should have posted it here in the discussion thread. But you should have Theodwin buy a ring of spell storing with echolocation. It will at least give him blind sight 40, which would get through mind blank.


Male Human Expert 1 Warrior 1

As another aside, the Iron Circlet of Guarded Souls shuts down soul effecting magic hard.

I think I am going to take up the martial side of this challenge. Theodwin has kind of inspired me, I have a few ideas but it is surely the much harder challenge.

Grand Lodge

Rough second round,
Casters -2
Martials -0


Male Human Expert 1 Warrior 1

Yeah, I'm not super confident about that win. When Wiz Bang Mazed himself after the spell turning, by a strict reading of the rules he did leave the arena, as does anyone who teleports, as teleportation requires an instant in the astral plane.

Liberty's Edge

MichaelCullen wrote:
Yeah, I'm not super confident about that win. When Wiz Bang Mazed himself after the spell turning, by a strict reading of the rules he did leave the arena, as does anyone who teleports, as teleportation requires an instant in the astral plane.

+1 If you are mazed, you have left the arena. Can there be any doubt about this? So anyone who has been mazed has lost the match.


Male Human Expert 1 Warrior 1

"Arena: 200ft by 200ft by 200ft, leaving the area is grounds for DQ"
Its grounds for DQ, Theodwin was being quite gracious. I don't think it should be a straight loss for Theodwin. Wiz Bang (my sample PC) was negligent in forgetting to put up spell turning as well. Theodwin deserves a good bit of credit here.


Male Human Expert 1 Warrior 1

That said, there may need to be some more clarification on what "leaves the arena" means. Does an extra dimensional space count such as Maze? What if someone gets stuffed in a portable hole, or falls in a pit spell? Those are extra dimensional spaces as well.

What if someone teleports or D-Doors? They travel through the astral plane to do so, they leave the arena, but just for an instant.

By wording it as "grounds for DQ" there is some room for interpretation. I'm just curious where that line is.


Right. I think that since maze is a duration that (until you wished out of it) almost always returns you to the same spot, it was a great call to get rid of me to let yourself get whatever buffs you wanted up. The reflect was just a bonus that it happened to you. The downside is, even if you went in a maze, you could theoretically spend your actions buffing yourself, THEN wish yourself out.


Anyone want to try vs my monk?


If you're making rules on extradimensional spaces, I'd suggest "Intentionally leaving the arena is grounds for disqualification".

Mazing the opponent shouldn't be an automatic win because that's just boring. It becomes "Did you remember to get a Ring of Spell Turning and activate it? No? You lose". And then there's the Otherworldly Kimono, which as far as I can tell doesn't even allow SR or Spell Turning (the only reference to Maze is the space it generates). So whoever wins initiative sucks in the other person and declares victory! That's... boring.


Jadis will happily take on the monk.


Male Human Expert 1 Warrior 1

As far as blindsight and blindsense go, it depends on how you get them. If they are from an item, then they are probably block by the "all devices" clause. But if you can get them by a supernatural or extradinary abity they should work. Or if you can get them via a non divination spell (miracle and wish don't work either, as called out in the spell).

As far as blindsense goes, it could be very useful, simply knowing where the enemy is opens up many options, including moving over or shooting arrows into that area.

The best options for getting past mindblank/invisibility:
Non divination spells - such as echolocation
Supernatural/extraordinary abilities - such as dragon disciple's blindsense


I don't understand the contest rules though. One shot items are out (hampering the martial), but one shot spell components are fine?

Dust of appearance would solve all my mind blank issues, allowing for AoOs to be made again.


I believe it was only potions and scrolls which were excluded rather than all one use items. At least that was what the original OP said.


Male Human Expert 1 Warrior 1

Under campaign info it say "-No consumables (i.e Scrolls, wands, potions.) "
Perhaps that should be changed to no consumable items that grant spells? Or non magical consumables are allowed?


I guess I interpreted no consumables as, "nothing that is one-use". If the intent was to allow things like dust of appearance, then I should try to make another fighter.


It's an attempt to keep WBL manageable. If you only need to worry about winning one fight, then you could do a lot more if you didn't need to buy permanent items.

Generally this benefits the caster more than the martial, since many permanent items mimic the benefits of spells, many of which they can easily have pre-cast.

The only way a martial is going to reliably win in this sort of contest is at the levels where spellcaster resources are sharply limited. You're fighting the very system itself here, which gives higher level spellcasters more and more powerful resources, and where at some point it was decided that magic can do just about anything you can imagine.

In my opinion, a 7th-level caster can set up a scenario where simply staying in the arena will erode the martial's hit points and make themselves virtually immune to attacks. If the caster only has to worry about ONE encounter, you will see shenanigans that will probably never happen in actual play.

And really, if the only way a martial character can fight a spellcaster is with magic items, which themselves are based on magic spells...shouldn't we just concede the point that magic is too powerful and pervasive in the game? You're spending money to mimic the powers of a caster- how much money do they have to spend to mimic the powers of a non-caster?


Why can't you get blindsight from an item?


I could only find one, the swordmasters blindfold. Which gives you blindsight 5' in trade for making you blind. Not exactly ideal for this kind of situation.

Do you know of any others items which give you blindsight?


Fungal eyes from the alchemy manual give you blindsight 30 but you become blind.

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