How to stop NPC wizards from being grappled


Advice


I'm running a campaign for my husband - he's a rogue/sorcerer with a party including a barbarian, sorcerer, and a cleric, sometimes a ranger too. I run the other characters except in combat he controls the barbarian.

He is able to defeat every single spellcaster I throw at him within a couple of rounds - by grappling them, using either his Rogue or the Barbarian. If grappling isn't an option he'll use Sleep (which I removed the HD limit from, but it gets more difficult on powerful creatures). Doesn't matter if they have great spells prepared, because they never get a chance to use them.

The party will be fighting a level 9 Divination-focused wizard soon - the party is either level 4 or 5 (I forget. It has been a couple of months). I need some advice in regards to defending him against grappling - his CMD is only 13.


Don't let him get close. By level 9, a caster has access to Dimension Door and Teleport, which can both be used to escape from a grapple, but really, the best option is flight. By level 9, wizards have access to Overland Flight, which can keep them airborne all day. A level 5 party with no wizard has no access to flight at all, so your wizard could be floating inches above your party's reach and could mock them with impunity.

Out of curiosity, how is Sleep consistently landing? It's a level 1 spell. The DC should be around 16 at the highest unless he's a dedicated enchanter. Are you enforcing the 1-round casting time?


step one reinstate the hd cap on sleep its there for a reason

step 2 all bonuses to ac that is not armor,shield or natural armor, go towards cmd that means things like insite,dodge,deflection ect.

step 3 give him a pet and some mooks to help in the fight its a little hard to grapple some one when you have 12 guys smacking you in the face

step 4 give the wizard something to let him fly or use dementiondoor to get away

step 5 buffs lots of buffs hes a divination wizard so he will know when they will show up so he knows just when to cast the buffs on him, his pet and his mooks

step 6 give every one max hp per hit die makes pcs tougher and makes enemies tougher and makes combat less glass cannony

step 7 make sure you have back up mooks ready if the party is doing the fight to easy have them come out if its to hard hold them back


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If they've grappled you, Dimension Door and Teleport are risky propositions. Either one is a concentration check of 14 or 15+ the grappler's CMB to cast, and since one is a barbarian, that's a losing match for you even with Focused Mind and Combat Casting for the bonus +6.

I'd recommend maxing escape artist, and getting a +1 slick mythril buckler. It's almost always enough to overcome the enemy's CMD and allow you to slip out of a grapple no problem. Or just use terrain to stay out of reach.


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Invisibility + spells that don't break invisibility should also work. Summon some monsters, control the environment, etc.
Keep the wizard moving so they don't target him with glitterdust.
Another possibility is making him fly to avoid being grappled.
Mirror image and displacement also lower the chances of being hit, therefore missing the grapple.
Putting some meat shields that the players have to deal with wouldn't hurt either.


How does the wizard only have a CMD of 13? +4 from BAB alone and, with magic items, I'd expect it to be at least into the mid-to-high teens (which still isn't great, but better than 13)

Scroll of Freedom of Movement assuming decent UMD or a Cleric cohort.


There is also a shirt(UNFETTERED SHIRT) that cost about 10K that lets you have freedom of movement for a short time. I think it is only once per day, but that is all an NPC normally needs.

Also I would have minions be in between the caster and the melee types. Creating difficult terrain and flying also make casters hard to get so.

Spell such as mirror image, and blink also help.


Thanks for the advice! Actually, I had picked Fly partly for this reason and completely forgot.

Illusion is an opposed school for him so invisibility/mirror image isn't really an option, unfortunately. That will work for other casters though :)

n00bxqb:

Quote:
How does the wizard only have a CMD of 13? +4 from BAB alone

+4 BAB, +1 Dex, -2 Str, and I haven't picked magic items yet, though he's technically only supposed to have 2000gp worth anyway.

Quote:
Scroll of Freedom of Movement assuming decent UMD or a Cleric cohort.

I like this idea, but I don't think he could make the checks. UMD is +13, it would be DC27 to use the scroll and he'd also need to make a check to emulate a Wisdom score of 14. However, am I right in thinking he could have a potion of the same spell?

Lady-J:

Quote:
all bonuses to ac that is not armor,shield or natural armor, go towards cmd that means things like insite,dodge,deflection ect.

I can't really change his feats, but as an aside I didn't know this! Thank you!

Daedalus:

Quote:
Out of curiosity, how is Sleep consistently landing? It's a level 1 spell. The DC should be around 16 at the highest unless he's a dedicated enchanter. Are you enforcing the 1-round casting time?

The DC is 16, and most of the creatures the party fights tend to have low Will saves. There was a period where we both forgot about the casting time though.


you could also make his stats not suck hes a boss even for a wizard he should have 13,18,16,22,15,13 at the level(with out gear) he is that way his base cmd is 19 and he is also a boss so that merits pc wbl netting him 46k gold in items and then you can throw on the advanced template for good measure which should allow you to cut back on some mooks(not all just some)

Liberty's Edge

An NPC wizard could specialize in the Teleportation school.
A ninth level wizard can suddenly be 20' away. You already said that you cannot change feats, though. This school power and the feat Dimensional Agility make a good defensive combinatiom.

APG wrote:


Teleportation School
Associated School: Conjuration.

Replacement Power: The following school power replaces the acid dart power of the conjuration school.

Shift (Su): At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You must be able to see the space that you are moving into. You cannot take other creatures with you when you use this ability (except for familiars). You can move 5 feet for every two wizard levels you possess (minimum 5 feet). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.


Lady-J wrote:
you could also make his stats not suck hes a boss even for a wizard he should have 13,18,16,22,15,13 at the level(with out gear) he is that way his base cmd is 19 and he is also a boss so that merits pc wbl netting him 46k gold in items and then you can throw on the advanced template for good measure which should allow you to cut back on some mooks(not all just some)

I don't think the issue can be solved by buffing stats and equipment. A wizard, now matter how buffed, will be always weaker than a martial. His strength is his magic and with a proper strategy and the right spells, a wizard with low stats and now equipment can be troublesome by sheer magic force.

When a melee gets close to a wizard more often than not the fight is over. Even if the wizard can get away, each turn that the wizard is forced to take a deffensive action is a turn that he's not putting the PCs in trouble. The best option is always to keep out of reach.
Cloud spells are also great to avoid being targeted but if you are using them you have to make sure the wizard can do something that doesn't need targeting.


LucyG92 wrote:


n00bxqb:
Quote:
Scroll of Freedom of Movement assuming decent UMD or a Cleric cohort.

I like this idea, but I don't think he could make the checks. UMD is +13, it would be DC27 to use the scroll and he'd also need to make a check to emulate a Wisdom score of 14. However, am I right in thinking he could have a potion of the same spell?

Potions only go up to 3rd level; Freedom of Movement is a 4th level spell.

If the wizard has even a 1st level Cleric cohort with at least 14 Wisdom, it's a DC 8 caster level check to activate the scroll (7 or higher on the roll; 70% chance of success). +5% probability per caster level (natural 1 always fails, though).


Kileanna wrote:

I don't think the issue can be solved by buffing stats and equipment. A wizard, now matter how buffed, will be always weaker than a martial. His strength is his magic and with a proper strategy and the right spells, a wizard with low stats and now equipment can be troublesome by sheer magic force.

When a melee gets close to a wizard more often than not the fight is over. Even if the wizard can get away, each turn that the wizard is forced to take a deffensive action is a turn that he's not putting the PCs in trouble. The best option is always to keep out of reach.
Cloud spells are also great to avoid being targeted but if you are using them you have to make sure the wizard can do something that doesn't need targeting.

i was more so getting at the stats he has for a boss fight are whofully low unless the wizard is a venerable wizard trading a -6 to str,dex and con for a +3 to int,wis and cha there should be no reason for the stats to be that low as that is no longer a boss but a slightly higher level mook wizard who has lower stats than what a normal mook wizard has no wizard worth their grain of salt will have less than a +3 modifyer for dex and con and that still with their +5(or higher) in int and a boss shouldnt have a penalty to a stat what so ever unless its mindless or an animal or something were it has to have a -,1,2 or 3 in a stat


I aggree that the stats of this wizard might be a bit low, indeed. But I also think the ones you gave are way too high. Your wizard would qualify for both power attack and improved TWF, maybe too much.
Buffing his intelligence and constitution should be enough to improve him.


Kileanna wrote:

I aggree that the stats of this wizard might be a bit low, indeed. But I also think the ones you gave are way too high. Your wizard would qualify for both power attack and improved TWF, maybe too much.

Buffing his intelligence and constitution should be enough to improve him.

i dont think i know of any wizard that would actually use those, any how wizards have lots of rays and other ranged touch spells which require a high dex to utalize correctly with only a +5(4 from bab and 1 from dex) he has less than a 50/50 chance hitting a decently built character who would have a touch ac of 15-16 minimum at that level


Lady-J wrote:
Kileanna wrote:

I aggree that the stats of this wizard might be a bit low, indeed. But I also think the ones you gave are way too high. Your wizard would qualify for both power attack and improved TWF, maybe too much.

Buffing his intelligence and constitution should be enough to improve him.
i dont think i know of any wizard that would actually use those, any how wizards have lots of rays and other ranged touch spells which require a high dex to utalize correctly with only a +5(4 from bab and 1 from dex) he has less than a 50/50 chance hitting a decently built character who would have a touch ac of 15-16 minimum at that level

You got me wrong. I've never meant a wizard should power attack or TWF, I just said it as a way to point how high the scores you gave for your wizard are.


Kileanna wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Kileanna wrote:

I aggree that the stats of this wizard might be a bit low, indeed. But I also think the ones you gave are way too high. Your wizard would qualify for both power attack and improved TWF, maybe too much.

Buffing his intelligence and constitution should be enough to improve him.
i dont think i know of any wizard that would actually use those, any how wizards have lots of rays and other ranged touch spells which require a high dex to utalize correctly with only a +5(4 from bab and 1 from dex) he has less than a 50/50 chance hitting a decently built character who would have a touch ac of 15-16 minimum at that level
You got me wrong. I've never meant a wizard should power attack or TWF, I just said it as a way to point how high the scores you gave for your wizard are.

ehh its an average character stat array with a +2 racial into int and dex with no penalties to any stat


Average? I think I've never played a character with such scores in my whole life!
The STR, DEX and CON scores you gave are way higher than most martials. 97 points total adding all the scores. That's a score of 95 to start. That's too much for me.

Back on topic: OP, you mentioned you have removed the HP limitation for the sleep spell. I understand you want to keep it useful at higher levels but, being an area spell it needs some limitations so it doesn't affect everybody. My suggestion is to allow it to affect as many HD as your caster level, so it will still be useful but not overpowered.


I just used the 'heroic' ability scores for an NPC from the Core Rulebook, made the adjustments for him being old, racial +2 bonus from being a half-elf and the increases from leveling. He has:
Str 6, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 14


heroic ability score is more for when you want to roll up allot of mooks in quick succestion so you can just pick a class and throw the pregen stats were they need to go making a boss is more intekit and should have their stats rolled up or just flat out handed out to them(eg. they have y,x,z,x,w,v as a stat array) cuz with those stats even tho hes level 9 i can see a party of level 5s killing him in 1-2 rounds


Kileanna wrote:
Back on topic: OP, you mentioned you have removed the HP limitation for the sleep spell. I understand you want to keep it useful at higher levels but, being an area spell it needs some limitations so it doesn't affect everybody. My suggestion is to allow it to affect as many HD as your caster level, so it will still be useful but not overpowered.

The sleep spell adjustment was because he wanted to take a level in sorcerer at level 5, meaning the original sleep spell would generally not be any use, and it's his favourite spell. The limitation we have at the moment is that for every HD above 4, the creature gets a +2 bonus on their save and they're immune to the same spell after one success for 24 hours. If he wants to use it on a creature at 4HD or above, it can only target that creature, too.


LucyG92 wrote:

I just used the 'heroic' ability scores for an NPC from the Core Rulebook, made the adjustments for him being old, racial +2 bonus from being a half-elf and the increases from leveling. He has:

Str 6, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 14

With the right strategy and that scores he should do OK.

If you want to buff him a bit, +2 on INT and CON wouldn't hurt, but he might do well with the stats as they are as long as you play him in a clever way.
You can also give him more HP by having him cast False Life before combat.


Wizard has to have some hired muscle. They don't need to be much, just cannon fodder for the wizard to stand behind, cackle, taunt and throw spells.


wraithstrike wrote:
There is also a shirt(UNFETTERED SHIRT) that cost about 10K that lets you have freedom of movement for a short time. I think it is only once per day, but that is all an NPC normally needs.

You right, but I'd add that a DM should be careful with this approach; that magic item will be in the party's hands in four rounds, tops. Thereafter one of the PCs will be immune to grapple. This solution works for one encounter, sadly.

All your other suggestions are spot-on. Magic and abilities are the answer.


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OH RIGHT. And don't forget Grease.

Grease is wonderful.


LucyG92 wrote:
Illusion is an opposed school for him so invisibility/mirror image isn't really an option, unfortunately. That will work for other casters though :)

Unless I've forgotten something, all that means is preparing an opposition spell takes two slots.

There are always scrolls, opposition or not. A nice potion of invisibility and a scroll of mirror image won't suck. Number of images will be low from a scroll, so I'd try to find a way to get the wizard casting it.

Basically, the same techniques that prevent attacks that deal hit point damage apply for grapples too.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Lesser Talisman of Freedom from Occult Adventures, 900 gp.

Occult Adventures, pg 264 wrote:
Talisman of Freedom: These talismans are inscribed with the names of spirits and other gures associated with freedom and liberation. The first time that the wearer becomes grappled, entangled, or paralyzed, he is automatically affected by freedom of movement for 3 rounds. Moderate abjuration; CL 7th; freedom of movement.


Trinam wrote:

OH RIGHT. And don't forget Grease.

Grease is wonderful.

^^^^ This.


+1 cloth armor of spell storing. Have the 2nd level spell Frigid Touch stored in it.

Get hit wearing it and as a immediate action can choose to trigger Frigid Touch on the attacker. Does 4d6 cold damage plus staggers, ending attackers turn.

A cheap and mean tactic is wizard using vermin repellent and standing in the middle of a swarm of vermin. Players HATE swarms. *GM call that the swarm failed save on the repellant.*


Matt2VK wrote:
A cheap and mean tactic is wizard using vermin repellent and standing in the middle of a swarm of vermin. Players HATE swarms. *GM call that the swarm failed save on the repellant.*

My PCs once stumbled across a drug laboratory run by a gnome alchemist. The alchemist immediately began drinking extracts (buffing) while alternately offering long-winded explanations and begging for mercy. The PCs were just about to charge him and cut him down when he drank one last extract, said, "Ugh... that one was... I don't think..." and then, well, the extract was Vomit Swarm. That one makes you puke up a swarm of spiders, which will attack anyone in range while leaving you alone.

Standing in the middle of the vomited swarm, he gnome coughed a couple of times, swallowed, then looked up and said brightly, "Well then! Better out than in, right?"

The PCs stopped cold in their tracks. By the time they had recovered their composure, the heavily buffed gnome had turned invisible and was launching his first salvo of bombs...

Yeah, swarms are good.

Doug M.


There's always fire shield -- "Grapple me and burn/freeze, you fools!" Not entirely an escape...


Are you running the wizard NPC alone, without allies?

If you are, that's the biggest mistake you're making. A single enemy, even a wizard, is usually going to lose a fight because of action economy.

Give that wizard a wall of mooks. Even if they're 4 levels lower than the wizard, they create a meat wall for the wizard to hide behind while he lobs spells.

Liberty's Edge

Escape Artist plus Liberating Command

PS: The sleep stuff doesn't seem to be a big deal to me. He could have dipped 1 level in witch and taken slumber hex as well. Regardless, his stats should be low enough that the save for sleep is super-easy. Having a save-or-suck spell with a low DC seems largely pointless to me. Honestly, it seems like a waste of a level, especially in a party which already has a sorcerer.

The actual sorcerer can presumably keep selecting deep slumber, cloak of dreams, etc., if you want someone in the party sleeping people.

If your husband really wants a magic rogue, he could look at eldritch scoundrel or any of the numerous archetypes of various spellcasting classes that get sneak attack dice.


LucyG92 wrote:
The party will be fighting a level 9 Divination-focused wizard soon - the party is either level 4 or 5 (I forget. It has been a couple of months). I need some advice in regards to defending him against grappling - his CMD is only 13.

Level 4 spell - Freedom of Movement - lasts 90 minutes at that level. This makes the wizard immune to grappling.

The enemy is a Divination-focused wizard. Having him have that spell up when combat starts isn't a big stretch. It actually makes extreme sense that that particular wizard has a defense to a commonly used party tactic.


Still, staying out of reach or avoiding to be hit is better than just grapple immunity. Even if you can't grapple a wizard, he's not going to survive a lot of time if they come into melee.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Displacement + Blink is an effective counter.


Scroll of the L6 wizard spell Mislead. Burn it before combat and laugh maniacally.
Boots of Escape.
L1 wizard spell Shock Shield.
Potion of gaseous form.
Spell storing Bracers of Armor with something really ugly stored in them. (intensified shocking grasp, vampiric touch, or something else equally fun)


Rory wrote:
Level 4 spell - Freedom of Movement - lasts 90 minutes at that level. This makes the wizard immune to grappling.

Although given FoM isn't a wizard spell, he needs a cleric buddy, or a scroll and lots of UMD.


Actually, even with Illusion as opposed school, invisibility is not right out. It just means using 2 slots to prepare it. Which might be worth it all things considered.
Also, does he have a bonded object ? If the spell is on his spellbook...


BretI wrote:

Lesser Talisman of Freedom from Occult Adventures, 900 gp.

Occult Adventures, pg 264 wrote:
Talisman of Freedom: These talismans are inscribed with the names of spirits and other gures associated with freedom and liberation. The first time that the wearer becomes grappled, entangled, or paralyzed, he is automatically affected by freedom of movement for 3 rounds. Moderate abjuration; CL 7th; freedom of movement.

Was coming here to suggest this same item.


Reverse wrote:
Rory wrote:
Level 4 spell - Freedom of Movement - lasts 90 minutes at that level. This makes the wizard immune to grappling.
Although given FoM isn't a wizard spell, he needs a cleric buddy, or a scroll and lots of UMD.

You are absolutely right! I was very mistaken that it was a sorcerer/wizard spell.

That's a mistake I've had in my mind for many years too.

Thanks!

Sovereign Court

The lesser talisman has the benefit of not "saddling" the players with too much grapple-foiling loot. And the three-round duration means that players can try again after a few turns, but that means you've had a combat that wasn't decided on round one.

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