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Can you please finally give us PDF only subscriptions (other than for Society Scenarios)? For your international customers, the shipping fees are just insane. Also: I don't need any physical books anymore!

Can you please finally give us PDF only subscriptions (other than for Society Scenarios)? For your international customers, the shipping fees are just insane. Also: I don't need any physical books anymore!

Depends how they do it. Subscription where they charge me to get the PDF when the book officially releases is basically nothing. I can click “purchase” myself

Now, what I would personally like to see, is a PDF subscription where you pay extra (either percentage extra or a flat amount per book type), and you in exchange get the PDF in early access when the physical subscribers do. I would swap to that in a heartbeat because I really only subscribe for early access — I just don’t read the books often anymore. Most of the time I’ve already read the whole thing cover to cover by the time the book arrives at my house (and I play online nowadays)!

Is this being pushed from a drop in subscriptions due to an uptick in book prices and shipping fees?

The issue w/ a PDF only subscription is that depending on how the FLGS' react? that could be an immediate detriment to their businesses and cause Paizo to get pushed out of stores. the subscriber benefit, as set up, allows a special loophole that says "Well they're purchasing directly from us anyway, who cares if they get the PDF a little early" I think that's the thing folks who want a PDF only subscription keep missing. There are FLGS factors that keep them from just offering that, and like it or not? game stores drive sales to people outside of the community. so keeping them on your good side is just smart business.

Also, there is no "When physical subscribers get the PDFs". Some people have had the War of Immortals one for days, if not over a week now, and I have not received mine yet. It's dependent on when yours get shipped, which as far as I can tell is the street date of the book -2d12 days, per person. Looks like I rolled low this time.

Paizo values our subscribers as the backbone of our business

I'd say the backbone of your business is thoughtful innovation. You introduced ideas like subscriptions, pawns, flip mats, completely free online rules, strong support for third party etc. And seemingly it worked pretty well for you, in general.

Instead of clinging to a business model that becomes increasingly brittle when campaigns increasingly happen online, trust in your capability to innovate.

Also, there is no "When physical subscribers get the PDFs". Some people have had the War of Immortals one for days, if not over a week now, and I have not received mine yet. It's dependent on when yours get shipped, which as far as I can tell is the street date of the book -2d12 days, per person. Looks like I rolled low this time.

This is another thing that I personally really dislike and I don't believe it should be a thing -- I don't like the way the subscriptions are handled. Everyone should be charged at once in one specific day, and receive their PDF as part of that. Then, their orders will ship as they are able from the warehouse. I personally am not a fan at all of the "Am I seeing all the people online enjoy the product and discuss it while waiting who knows how long, or am I getting the product early?" game -- Hypothetically, if subscription early access worked this way, then people with a PDF subscription could get it at this moment too

Ken'Thras Sunspell wrote:

Also, there is no "When physical subscribers get the PDFs". Some people have had the War of Immortals one for days, if not over a week now, and I have not received mine yet. It's dependent on when yours get shipped, which as far as I can tell is the street date of the book -2d12 days, per person. Looks like I rolled low this time.

This is another thing that I personally really dislike and I don't believe it should be a thing -- I don't like the way the subscriptions are handled. Everyone should be charged at once in one specific day, and receive their PDF as part of that. Then, their orders will ship as they are able from the warehouse. I personally am not a fan at all of the "Am I seeing all the people online enjoy the product and discuss it while waiting who knows how long, or am I getting the product early?" game -- Hypothetically, if subscription early access worked this way, then people with a PDF subscription could get it at this moment too

It’s been said repeatedly that if they do that, the physical shipment will slip out of their payment provider’s window for shipping which will cause a different set of problems.

Ken'Thras Sunspell wrote:

Also, there is no "When physical subscribers get the PDFs". Some people have had the War of Immortals one for days, if not over a week now, and I have not received mine yet. It's dependent on when yours get shipped, which as far as I can tell is the street date of the book -2d12 days, per person. Looks like I rolled low this time.

As much as I would love this, due to the way accounting and business stuff works, they really can't do this. The 'sale' is 'complete' when the book is sent, so they can't just release the PDF to everyone early.

I will say that even if it's annoying, the subscription is so very worth the money if you're someone who wants shiny pretty books, but still mostly uses PDFs in their day-to-day planning.

Never again. I was a Subscriber to both the AP line and the Rulebook line from the time the magazines ended. I cancelled my subs to the AP line After HELL'S REBELS and the Rulebook line some time after the 1st 3 rulebooks for 2e.

There were MANY times where I walked into my "local" gaming store (The Compleat Strategist in nYC) and saw that they had a book on the shelves and I was STILL waiting for mine to show up in my mailbox.

There was also the cost of shipping which was RIDICOULUS and ultimately not worth it considering gaming stores were frequently getting the book before I did.

I supported Paizo directly for many, MANY years because they were a great company. I still pick up books from time to time but usually at a steep discount (WAR OF THE IMMORTALS even with shipping was about $10 cheaper than if I'd bought it from Paizo). But the shipping from Paizo was murder on the wallet and not worth it.

There were MANY times where I walked into my "local" gaming store (The Compleat Strategist in nYC) and saw that they had a book on the shelves and I was STILL waiting for mine to show up in my mailbox.

That sounds like your local game shop was breaking the street dates for merchandise they received. I’m assuming that Paizo has street dates for its books like any other publisher. That’s not really something to get upset with Paizo about.

ShinHakkaider wrote:

There were MANY times where I walked into my "local" gaming store (The Compleat Strategist in nYC) and saw that they had a book on the shelves and I was STILL waiting for mine to show up in my mailbox.

That sounds like your local game shop was breaking the street dates for merchandise they received. I’m assuming that Paizo has street dates for its books like any other publisher. That’s not really something to get upset with Paizo about.

Not this person but I'd easily believe it. Shipping is preeeeeetty slow, on average I get the physical books 1-1.5 weeks (one time, it was 2) after the street date, so local shops would already have it. I don't personally mind it because books end up being just shelf decoration, but if I wanted the physical book, going to the local store is more cost effective since you get to save up on the shipping fees (In fact, given that it feels really wasteful to be subscribed just to get the PDF early, I'm likely to stop subscribing, and just buy every PDF, and then choice buy books from my local shops if I really like a particular book for any reason)

Shipping with Usps can be slow. Even when I use Priority Mail, it still takes two days, despite being only five hours away from the warehouse. There are various reasons for this, but it’s the reality.

For me, the subscription has always been about supporting Paizo directly and receiving a PDF at no extra cost.

However, that may be changing. With the price increases on the books, it’s becoming less practical, especially when you can get the same book from Amazon at a significant discount and still buy the PDF separately for less than the subscription. Even more so you if add in shipping.

That's why I asked if there had been a drop in subscribers.

Realities:
Pathfinder Lost Omens: The Mwangi Expanses (P2)
Paizo: $49.99 + aprox. $10 shipping (2-weeks) Note: shipping is probably actual cost of employee time, packaging and shipper's fee.
Amazon: $38.24 with One-Day delivery included.
With subscription you get the free PDF. If you add the PDF ($29.99) to the amazon order you pay $68.23.

Note: I'll still probably go through Paizo though. I have some vouchers to use.

The issue w/ a PDF only subscription is that depending on how the FLGS' react? that could be an immediate detriment to their businesses and cause Paizo to get pushed out of stores. the subscriber benefit, as set up, allows a special loophole that says "Well they're purchasing directly from us anyway, who cares if they get the PDF a little early" I think that's the thing folks who want a PDF only subscription keep missing. There are FLGS factors that keep them from just offering that, and like it or not? game stores drive sales to people outside of the community. so keeping them on your good side is just smart business.

It might even benefit FLAGs, If you have a subscription for a hard book + PDF there's is zero reason to get a book at a flag. If you have a PDF only subscription then there is still a reason to get the hard book from your FLAG.

Now my thoughts on the topic of subscriptions in general.

As much as I prefer books I'm out of bookshelf space, and I'm out of room for more bookshelves. I had to sell all my PF2e books to make room for the PF2r remaster core book for the Starfinder 2e playtest. I do like the sketch covers so I bought all my remaster core books locally. I also sold 2 of my 3 copies of the Starfinder Core rule book and kept the one printed with the most recent errata update.

Starfinder is the main game I play, I'm keeping all my SF1e hardcover books, but will likely just get the PDFs when SF2e comes out, if I do get the hardcover books it will be after the first printing.

Now that the local organized play group disbanded last year due to not having enough players, I only play online now. My FLAG is now 99% Warhammer and MTG It get's so loud there that they have earplugs available, which makes playing a TTRPG almost impossible. Sadly other then saving on shipping costs there's not much reason for me to support my FLAGs anymore.

So I have canceled all my subscriptions once the last SF1e book was out. A PDf-only subscription would be a way to let me still show support for the game. But I'm guessing the big push for subscriptions is to see how many books to print in advance?

To be clear none of this is a complaint against Paizo, largely it's the way I play the game that has changed. After playing games live for 45 years I'm having a great time playing SFS Play by Post.

Still waiting after all these years for Paizo to actually put out a PDF subscription.

Offer PDF-only subscription, give the people to it early access who don't want to buy a physical book. Seems stubborn to not do this and offer this to your customers who want it.

Paizo still makes and sells physical copies through themselves, not just through FLGSs. A PDF sub with a guaranteed early access would be a deathblow to the physical sales.

Instead of clinging to a business model that becomes increasingly brittle when campaigns increasingly happen online, trust in your capability to innovate.

Subscriptions are guaranteed monthly income for the company. That stability allows them to experiment and innovate in other lines without risking the lights going off due to a bad run of months.

I understand there's a lot of reasons why Paizo might not want to do this, and ultimately, I am only critical because I think things could be greatly improved -- you already got the equivalent of a bunch of Michelangelos making the Sistine Chapel when it comes to making the actual content of the books, I'm just of the opinion that the way they are delivered could be improved, be PDF subscriptions, changing how the PDF is delivered to the subscribers, etc. but I ultimately do understand if it really can't

Much like Driftbourne, I just can't keep justifying physical books. I'll keep supporting and getting every PDF (And I'm in agreement that this makes it easier to get books from game stores, I have hardly bought from them since starting my subscription)

Paizo still makes and sells physical copies through themselves, not just through FLGSs. A PDF sub with a guaranteed early access would be a deathblow to the physical sales.

I'm not against a PDF-only subscription that comes out after the Hardcover books, like normal PDF sales are now. Maybe there could be some other benefit to having a PDF-only subscription.

Often If I do buy the book from my FLAG getting the PDF on the normal PDF release date is still getting earlier than my FLAG has it in stock.

If I'm planning on buying PDF only, the normal PDF release date is still early access compared to it being on AON. This is why I'm looking forward to getting War of Immortal PDF on Oct 30

Subscriptions are guaranteed monthly income for the company. That stability allows them to experiment and innovate in other lines without risking the lights going off due to a bad run of months.

If Paizo can find a way to have both physical subscriptions and PDF-only subscriptions, that don't interfere with physical sales for people who are not going to buy physical books anyway or buy from a FLAG, that's just adds to the guaranteed monthly income from subscriptions.

I'm one of those old-fashioned players who needs the analog version for use; I don't think I've even downloaded most of the digital copies which came with my previous sub orders, though it's nice to have some of them for quick reference one-off questions. I also wasn't too fussed by getting the book a week or two after street date, I rarely play anymore so there's no rush to having it right away. I'd dropped my subscriptions because I just wasn't interested in the latest offerings, but if their next big meta-push is Azlant or the Golden Road regions, or maybe even Arcadia, I would happily re-up. Here's hoping!

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Subscriptions are guaranteed monthly income for the company. That stability allows them to experiment and innovate in other lines without risking the lights going off due to a bad run of months.

If Paizo can find a way to have both physical subscriptions and PDF-only subscriptions, that don't interfere with physical sales for people who are not going to buy physical books anyway or buy from a FLAG, that's just adds to the guaranteed monthly income from subscriptions.

I said much the same when the OP commented on Facebook.

As an international customer, the pdf subscription would probably made Paizo more money from me personally, because I'd love to support them via a subscription and also because I'd probably pay for stuff that I just don't buy automatically these days (I would have probably bought less than half of the APs I have if not for the initial charter subscription I held on to longer than I should have just because I didn't want to lose the charter tag).

This said, what I would love even more is if Paizo found a European distributor that would allow me to sub to the physical product without having to pay insane amounts of money for shipping including the fear that it'll never come to my house because our national custom laws make them disappear somewhere during the process.

But unless one of those two things happens, I'm just not willing /can't afford to subscribe to any of the lines, especially considering that I'll never use more than a small percentage of the stuff I already have in actual games. Will still buy pdf's directly from Paizo off course.

What’s the advantage of a pdf subscription?

If you buy the book it takes like….5? Clicks of a mouse to buy it, personalise it, download it.

If you had a subscription it would be…3 clicks?

There’s the advantage that looking for things is quicker. But in order to justify Paizo doing it the benefit has to be SO good that more people will buy it. Many, many more people, given the Paizo advantage discount.

I just don’t see it being economically feasible - especially considering the economic cost from the inevitable drop in physical sales.

The advantage of a pdf subscription is that it takes no clicks. I don't have to go hunt for the item and click thought Paizo's abysmal online shop.

If I don't have a subscription I have to actively seek it out and buy it. With a subscription it turns up with no effort on my part.

I decided I wasn't going to have physical books shipped across the Atlantic for second edition. I only have electronic copies of 2e rulebooks and the sketch cover player and GM core that I bought locally because they are pretty. I would take a pdf subscription to the rule book line in a heartbeat.

I still have the AP sent to me, but only because I have all of them on my shelves and have considered stopping due to postage costs.

The theoretical bonus to PDF subscription is early release PDF. Which, is basically what they already sell their subscriptions on -- otherwise, there's very little reason to buy directly and not from a FLGS. I'm with what someone else said: PDF-only subs might actually benefit local game stores, and bring in more subscription income overall.

Paizo really ought to endeavor to meet customers halfway. I mean, you still have to email them to cancel your subscription. Even barring a recent FTC Rule in the US, it's just pretty anti-consumer to put barriers to stopping automatic charges to a card.

I'm happy to support Paizo, but I would be happier to do so with practices that are more friendly to my own sensibilities and wallet. I plan to unsubscribe from everything after Divine Mysteries, because I am not comfortable spending so much on books I'm not incredibly hyped for. If it was PDF prices, I'd remain subscribed instead of "spot-"subscribing.

The advantage of a pdf subscription is that it takes no clicks. I don't have to go hunt for the item and click thought Paizo's abysmal online shop.

If I don't have a subscription I have to actively seek it out and buy it. With a subscription it turns up with no effort on my part.

I decided I wasn't going to have physical books shipped across the Atlantic for second edition. I only have electronic copies of 2e rulebooks and the sketch cover player and GM core that I bought locally because they are pretty. I would take a pdf subscription to the rule book line in a heartbeat.

I still have the AP sent to me, but only because I have all of them on my shelves and have considered stopping due to postage costs.

That’s interesting. I’m the exact opposite - I find the “my downloads” page to be very unhelpful (granted I have a thousand or more files now).

On the rare occasion I want a pdf, I find it easier to go to the store directly and download it from there rather than get it from my account.

LiaElf76 wrote:

ShinHakkaider wrote:

There were MANY times where I walked into my "local" gaming store (The Compleat Strategist in nYC) and saw that they had a book on the shelves and I was STILL waiting for mine to show up in my mailbox.

That sounds like your local game shop was breaking the street dates for merchandise they received. I’m assuming that Paizo has street dates for its books like any other publisher. That’s not really something to get upset with Paizo about.

Not this person but I'd easily believe it. Shipping is preeeeeetty slow, on average I get the physical books 1-1.5 weeks (one time, it was 2) after the street date, so local shops would already have it. I don't personally mind it because books end up being just shelf decoration, but if I wanted the physical book, going to the local store is more cost effective since you get to save up on the shipping fees (In fact, given that it feels really wasteful to be subscribed just to get the PDF early, I'm likely to stop subscribing, and just buy every PDF, and then choice buy books from my local shops if I really like a particular book for any reason)

Yeah, it’s a thing that is regular if you aren’t in the US. Heck, new products drop tomorrow and my subs still haven’t shipped, so there’s at least a decent chance I won’t have the PDFs when things go on sale.

It’s not world ending for me, but it can be an irritant and I see how other may get reasonably upset by it.

The theoretical bonus to PDF subscription is early release PDF. Which, is basically what they already sell their subscriptions on -- otherwise, there's very little reason to buy directly and not from a FLGS. I'm with what someone else said: PDF-only subs might actually benefit local game stores, and bring in more subscription income overall.

Paizo really ought to endeavor to meet customers halfway. I mean, you still have to email them to cancel your subscription. Even barring a recent FTC Rule in the US, it's just pretty anti-consumer to put barriers to stopping automatic charges to a card.

I'm happy to support Paizo, but I would be happier to do so with practices that are more friendly to my own sensibilities and wallet. I plan to unsubscribe from everything after Divine Mysteries, because I am not comfortable spending so much on books I'm not incredibly hyped for. If it was PDF prices, I'd remain subscribed instead of "spot-"subscribing.

It would not be early release. It would be release date. Just like the Society subs already are.

ShinHakkaider wrote:

There were MANY times where I walked into my "local" gaming store (The Compleat Strategist in nYC) and saw that they had a book on the shelves and I was STILL waiting for mine to show up in my mailbox.

That sounds like your local game shop was breaking the street dates for merchandise they received. I’m assuming that Paizo has street dates for its books like any other publisher. That’s not really something to get upset with Paizo about.

The Strat is notoriously strict about keeping street dates. I'm 53 and have been shopping at the Strat since I was about 16 years old. So when I say that I was getting my books AFTER the Strat had theirs on the shelf? I was in no means saying that they were putting things out early.

Thanks for making that Neo sized leap to a false conclusion though...

Thanks for making that Neo sized leap to a false conclusion though...

They made that logical leap because consistently getting your subscription books after the street date is not an experience most subscribers are having. The one time it happened to me it was because my shipment was lost in transit and Paizo had to send me a replacement, otherwise - even though I am receiving my books after other subscribers I am still getting it prior to street date. This is the more common experience subscribers are having.

I mean, you still have to email them to cancel your subscription. Even barring a recent FTC Rule in the US, it's just pretty anti-consumer to put barriers to stopping automatic charges to a card.

I'm not in agreement about the need for a PDF only subscription or a common PDF release date - but the above statement dovetails with one of the things I would love to see added to the subscription process.

It should be easier to cancel subs and it should be easier to pause subscriptions or skip books. Particularly if Remastered reprints like the upcoming Guns & Gears is going to be a pattern.

Cancelling my sub to not get a reprint of a book I already own and then resubscribing to get the next book feels like it could be streamlined.

ShinHakkaider wrote:

Thanks for making that Neo sized leap to a false conclusion though...

They made that logical leap because consistently getting your subscription books after the street date is not an experience most subscribers are having. The one time it happened to me it was because my shipment was lost in transit and Paizo had to send me a replacement, otherwise - even though I am receiving my books after other subscribers I am still getting it prior to street date. This is the more common experience subscribers are having.

LOL. It wasnt a logical leap because you have no idea what experience most subscribers are having. MOST subscribers dont post on this message board. You don't personally know MOST SUBSCRIBERS. So when you say "is not an experience most subscribers are having?" What are you talking about?

When I wrote my original post, I specifically spoke about MY experiences from 2009 to about 2019-20. So over the course of 10 years. The words I used to describe my experience were "many times" and "frequently" NOT consistently.

What I take umbrage to is this: I was talking about MY experience. Without discounting or attacking anyone else's. Without insinuating (on a public forum) that someone's FLGS was engaged in rule-breaking. Without insinuating or downplaying anyone else's experience. AND most importantly, without inflating my own importance / relevance by saying that I know the experiences of MOST subscribers in order to invalidate someone's experience.

How hard is it to simply say: "yikes that's rough. Okay I get why {name} would feel that way. It hasn't been MY experience but okay." Pretty hard it looks like...

It wasnt a logical leap because you have no idea what experience most subscribers are having. MOST subscribers dont post on this message board. You don't personally know MOST SUBSCRIBERS. So when you say "is not an experience most subscribers are having?" What are you talking about?

Most subscribers who have issues do post on these forums in the Customer Service Threads. They also post on the Pathfinder subreddit and I've read many of these comments. So THAT is what I'm talking about. Why are you getting so needlessly aggressive?

What I take umbrage to is this

Why do you need to take umbrage with ANYTHING that was said by anyone in this thread? Nothing in this thread rises to any level of real importance

Without insinuating or downplaying anyone else's experience. AND most importantly, without inflating my own importance / relevance by saying that I know the experiences of MOST subscribers in order to invalidate someone's experience.

Right, because how dare someone point out that your experience is atypical?

How hard is it to simply say: "yikes that's rough. Okay I get why {name} would feel that way. It hasn't been MY experience but okay." Pretty hard it looks like...

About as hard as reading someone speculate on why you had an atypical experience and not respond by condescendingly push back at them for the suggestion they made, apparently.

ShinHakkaider wrote:

It wasnt a logical leap because you have no idea what experience most subscribers are having. MOST subscribers dont post on this message board. You don't personally know MOST SUBSCRIBERS. So when you say "is not an experience most subscribers are having?" What are you talking about?

Most subscribers who have issues do post on these forums in the Customer Service Threads. They also post on the Pathfinder subreddit and I've read many of these comments. So THAT is what I'm talking about. Why are you getting so needlessly aggressive?

Quote:

What I take umbrage to is this

Why do you need to take umbrage with ANYTHING that was said by anyone in this thread? Nothing in this thread rises to any level of real importance

Quote:

Without insinuating or downplaying anyone else's experience. AND most importantly, without inflating my own importance / relevance by saying that I know the experiences of MOST subscribers in order to invalidate someone's experience.

Right, because how dare someone point out that your experience is atypical?

Quote:

How hard is it to simply say: "yikes that's rough. Okay I get why {name} would feel that way. It hasn't been MY experience but okay." Pretty hard it looks like...

About as hard as reading someone speculate on why you had an atypical experience and not respond by condescendingly push back at them for the suggestion they made, apparently.

The customer service forum has been closed for two years. So no they don't. And if they do post in other forums, they get directed to email or open a ticket.

You are the most correct, that statement should have been in the past tense. The common experiences witnessed in that threat when it existed however are the same as I expressed.

Somewhat on topic - I would like an option for a PDF subscription but it isn't a huge deal if it never happens.

I cancelled all my physical book subscriptions recently because freight fees were getting atrocious for out of US subscribers (sorry to see my Charter Subscriber tag go). If there is something coming I MIGHT purchase the PDF of it, but if a subscription was offered I would have bought all the things that I used get in physical media.

There isn't, so I don't. I'm aware I can go in and manually purchase the releases for the month, but I'm not going to - there isn't anything I really need and subscriptions were an easy way to support Paizo. As much as I like the company I'm not going to go hunting every month to see what came out, I'd rather just have Paizo bill me and get an email saying "here is this month's stuff, enjoy!"

:shrug: