What is Mythic?

Unicore wrote:

I for one really don’t need monsters in the game with numbers so high they are functionally useless stat blocks because I will never be able to reasonably use them in my game. It feels like at that point it is just a mental exercise for theory crafting, and it would really make spells and spell rank break down if there are creatures 10 levels ahead of a level 20 character.

Like nothing about a hypothetical 30th level creature would make sense as far as it being able to do anything that a level 25 creature can’t do except more numbers, and I wouldn’t see the value added there. Making a bunch of hypothetical rank 11+ spells and level 21+ feats just for NPCs and just for creatures far beyond the ability of level 20 heroes to fight feels like a colossal waste of developers time and resources as that would be used in like maybe one one book of one AP.

I am excited to see the kind of narrative breaking mythic powers creatures and characters can eventually get to make telling the super powerful creatures of myths stories possible without it just being about numbers in a stat block.

Well yes, I feel like the appeal of such creatures is that you specifically can't use them in ordinary games. They're specifically for Mythic adventures. There should be a noticeable difference between an ordinary and a mythic character, especially in the creatures they fight. Otherwise it's just saying that you're [insert mythic destiny here] without feeling like it.

Yeah... I already am unlikely to allow Mythic in any games for a long while, as I cannot use that in an ordinary game either, and I have no plans to run a mythic AP for some time. The same applies for mythic monsters in general, I won't be throwing them at my players (unless they really really deserve it)

I was hoping Mythic would be the point at which a kaiju fight, for example, turns from a series of hazards to a creature statblock.

I was hoping Mythic would be the point at which a kaiju fight, for example, turns from a series of hazards to a creature statblock.

It is.

moosher12 wrote:

I was hoping Mythic would be the point at which a kaiju fight, for example, turns from a series of hazards to a creature statblock.

It is.

Even more hyped for this!

Yeah, seems like the best of both worlds then, now to see if our existing Free Archetype game is too cluttered to throw Mythic into the game somehow as I get my sub copy, hopefully on the sooner side of the sipping window. I'm so excited.

I'm cautiously unoptimistic about what we've heard so far.
It feels to me like there should be some direct way to translate mythic power to non-mythic power.

For instance, a level 20 non-mythic party, I imagine, beats a level 1 mythic monster. And a level 2 mythic monster. But at some point, that changes. And it seems like that would change before the mythic monster was level 24. So hopefully there's a kind of guidance on where that line, blurry though it may be, is.

And to curtail the comments of "only mythic parties should be taking on mythic monsters", it was a commonly recommended path to mythic ascension in 1e that the PCs would defeat a mythic monster at the conclusion of a long quest. So there's plenty of narrative precedent for it.

I absolutely anticipate a "non-mythic things can't kill me lul" passive on most things that would've been level 26 and beyond on 1e, and that's so much more disappointing than actually making them strong enough that you need mythic to take them down.

I would also be somewhat disappointed by this implementation.

But if we're being fair, that's EXACTLY how PF 1E worked. Literally EVERY demon lord, archdevil, horseman of the apocalypse, and empyreal lord had regeneration 30 (shut off by deific or mythic). People forget that Pathfinder 1E mythic was mostly just a sticky note saying "this stuff doesn't work on me and this other stuff does." It did some other things too...but that was definitely a large part of it.

I'm cautiously unoptimistic about what we've heard so far.

It feels to me like there should be some direct way to translate mythic power to non-mythic power.

For instance, a level 20 non-mythic party, I imagine, beats a level 1 mythic monster. And a level 2 mythic monster. But at some point, that changes. And it seems like that would change before the mythic monster was level 24. So hopefully there's a kind of guidance on where that line, blurry though it may be, is.

And to curtail the comments of "only mythic parties should be taking on mythic monsters", it was a commonly recommended path to mythic ascension in 1e that the PCs would defeat a mythic monster at the conclusion of a long quest. So there's plenty of narrative precedent for it.

Yeah that's my concern here as well, and why I would not be surprised (based on what we've heard so far) that mythic boils down to some interesting flavor but no actual change to combat abilities like bonus damage, saving throws, breath weapons, etc.

Ectar wrote:

I'm cautiously unoptimistic about what we've heard so far.

It feels to me like there should be some direct way to translate mythic power to non-mythic power.

For instance, a level 20 non-mythic party, I imagine, beats a level 1 mythic monster. And a level 2 mythic monster. But at some point, that changes. And it seems like that would change before the mythic monster was level 24. So hopefully there's a kind of guidance on where that line, blurry though it may be, is.

And to curtail the comments of "only mythic parties should be taking on mythic monsters", it was a commonly recommended path to mythic ascension in 1e that the PCs would defeat a mythic monster at the conclusion of a long quest. So there's plenty of narrative precedent for it.

Yeah that's my concern here as well, and why I would not be surprised (based on what we've heard so far) that mythic boils down to some interesting flavor but no actual change to combat abilities like bonus damage, saving throws, breath weapons, etc.

Well, they've already talked about mythic proficiency which is a flat increase to numbers and comes with an increase in damage accordingly from critical hits, saving throw failures, and probably weapon expertise. Otherwise, PF2e has a track record of favoring new character options over raw number improvements and the ability they've shown in a sample looks to follow that trend. It's a pretty potent combat ability. We've already got things like breath weapons in the base game so I'm sure that's on the table for a variety of potential destinies.

It would be pretty metal for an apocalypse rider of pestilence to be able to exhale a cloud of biting insects as a breath weapon

moosher12 wrote:

I was hoping Mythic would be the point at which a kaiju fight, for example, turns from a series of hazards to a creature statblock.

It is.

If I may use the vernacular of the youth: POG!!!

This is very reassuring news. I thank you for letting us know.

Maybe Mythic will unlock the fabled 'summon creature of same level as you'

Calliope5431 wrote:

Ectar wrote:

I'm cautiously unoptimistic about what we've heard so far.

It feels to me like there should be some direct way to translate mythic power to non-mythic power.

For instance, a level 20 non-mythic party, I imagine, beats a level 1 mythic monster. And a level 2 mythic monster. But at some point, that changes. And it seems like that would change before the mythic monster was level 24. So hopefully there's a kind of guidance on where that line, blurry though it may be, is.

And to curtail the comments of "only mythic parties should be taking on mythic monsters", it was a commonly recommended path to mythic ascension in 1e that the PCs would defeat a mythic monster at the conclusion of a long quest. So there's plenty of narrative precedent for it.

Yeah that's my concern here as well, and why I would not be surprised (based on what we've heard so far) that mythic boils down to some interesting flavor but no actual change to combat abilities like bonus damage, saving throws, breath weapons, etc.

Well, they've already talked about mythic proficiency which is a flat increase to numbers and comes with an increase in damage accordingly from critical hits, saving throw failures, and probably weapon expertise. Otherwise, PF2e has a track record of favoring new character options over raw number improvements and the ability they've shown in a sample looks to follow that trend. It's a pretty potent combat ability. We've already got things like breath weapons in the base game so I'm sure that's on the table for a variety of potential destinies.

It would be pretty metal for an apocalypse rider of pestilence to be able to exhale a cloud of biting insects as a breath weapon

I was discussing mythic monsters - not PCs. Yeah, I expect mythic to unlock stuff like that for player characters given they literally said it does.

What I do not expect is for mythic monsters to randomly get mythic proficiency attacks +2 above baseline attack bonus. Or for mythic to alter their combat abilities in any substantive way. Given the go-to example given by the devs is a flavor "can't die" trick rather than a mechanical combat boost like bonus damage or a new attack method (say, a breath weapon). That's what I meant when I said it wouldn't change much on the monster side of things.

Well, they've already talked about mythic proficiency which is a flat increase to numbers and comes with an increase in damage accordingly from critical hits, saving throw failures, and probably weapon expertise.

Have they?

AFAICT, they have only talked about Mythic Proficiency with regard to skill checks and saves, not attack rolls or DCs, and it would (mostly) need to be the latter to increase expected damage. Unless they have talked about it adding to attacks and DCs, in which case I missed it.

Or for mythic to alter their combat abilities in any substantive way. Given the go-to example given by the devs is a flavor "can't die" trick rather than a mechanical combat boost like bonus damage or a new attack method (say, a breath weapon). That's what I meant when I said it wouldn't change much on the monster side of things.

I don't know. I do expect some new crazy combat abilities at least sometimes. Don't really know what can you do if you don't touch numbers a lot (and increasing number of targets would still be numbers), but something. Maybe more actions/compression, mobility, more conditions in debuffs. Yes, a lot of it still affects numbers. But only 'can't die' abilities feels a bit unimpressive.

The difference between a Kaiju and a Treerazer isn’t going to a +2 to a set number of rolls.

Very high resistances and immunities seem like they will have to be part of the deal, maybe almost to the level of something like Rift’s mega damage, that is like 100 points of regular damage (probably not that high, but if a Kaiju had 50 or 75 resistance to physical damage, it wouldn’t need an absurd AC to be beyond what can normally be fought.

I think something very likely that we haven’t seen much of on creatures is the kind of player abilities that boost levels of success entirely. That is like getting a +10 in certain circumstances without actually giving a +10 that just makes the creature completely out of bounds for playing against. Like if Baba Yaga had an ability that didn’t let anything but natural 20s count as critical success for saves against her spells, than a lot of players would be much more afraid of facing her, as all the evasion and Juggernaut abilities would basically be turned off against her.

I hope Mythic will be half a level of power for the characters. As of now, adapting difficulty to the party is a headache. An extra level (or a removed one) is too much of a change making the game trivial (or unplayable), Free Archetype and Ancestry Paragon don't buff the power level of characters enough to be impactful and Dual Classes is completely imbalanced. So when you want the game to be easier, which is something a lot of old D&D5 players want, you can't. Mythic would address that in a beautiful way.

I also hope Mythic template for monsters is like Elite Template but while Elite is only about numbers Mythic would be only about abilities. So if you want to improve a level +2 monster, instead of giving it the Elite template and end up with numbers above the ceiling you can give it the Mythic template and don't touch the numbers but give it crazy powers instead.

Well, I'll see soon what Paizo did.

I first heard the term "unplayable" in the context of Duplicate Bridge, which for those of you who don't know is a card game. My reaction was "in this context 'unplayable' means 'I don't like it'". Seems that applies to Pathfinder as well. :-)

When we get the book?

When we get the book?

November, subscribers in a week or so

rainzax wrote:

When we get the book?

November, subscribers in a week or so

*End of October, subs in a week or so.

Lost Omens: Divine Mysteries is in November.

I'm hoping some more previews pop up, since the wait to next week is killing me. Like one question on my mind is exactly what mythic threats will be in the book by default.

Like one question on my mind is exactly what mythic threats will be in the book by default.

Truly mythic foes.

Climate Change, man's inhumanity to man, upturned lego bricks in a dark room.

When we get the book?

It's available October 30th on PDF, so I would guess that would also be the store street date.

Mr.Haos wrote:

Like one question on my mind is exactly what mythic threats will be in the book by default.

Truly mythic foes.

Climate Change, man's inhumanity to man, upturned lego bricks in a dark room.

You forgot d4s. Those are more relevant for us.

Calliope5431 wrote:

rainzax wrote:

When we get the book?

November, subscribers in a week or so

*End of October, subs in a week or so.

Lost Omens: Divine Mysteries is in November.

In retrospect Google should have made that easier

I would love to have abilities that just work. Spend a reaction to avoid a hit, or at least have a bonus like +10 so it always does something. That to me is narrative power, knowing you can rely on your abilities to have an effect.

Having Mythic be a damage tag so all mythic beings have scaling damage reduction might be interesting for NPCs but doesn't work well for PCs unless it breaks the non stacking resistance rule.

I do hope to play in a FA/M/AP game sometime, sounds like the baseline I've been looking for.

I wonder how mythic will mesh with Eidolons.

I would love to have abilities that just work. Spend a reaction to avoid a hit, or at least have a bonus like +10 so it always does something. That to me is narrative power, knowing you can rely on your abilities to have an effect.

Having Mythic be a damage tag so all mythic beings have scaling damage reduction might be interesting for NPCs but doesn't work well for PCs unless it breaks the non stacking resistance rule.

I do hope to play in a FA/M/AP game sometime, sounds like the baseline I've been looking for.

I wonder how mythic will mesh with Eidolons.

That's a good point, I hope there's some carveout for your pets/eidlodons/constructs/whathaveyou to remain competitive

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Mr.Haos wrote:

Like one question on my mind is exactly what mythic threats will be in the book by default.

Truly mythic foes.

Climate Change, man's inhumanity to man, upturned lego bricks in a dark room.

You forgot d4s. Those are more relevant for us.

True but those only do d4 damage.

Lego bricks do d6 (and are Deadly d12, truly OP).

Sidenote, with new mythic rules, was there any other 1e mechanic we haven't gotten back besides corruption rules?

In addition to corruption, Horror Adventures also had the sanity system.

There's also lots of little subsystems we haven't seen yet, like the rules for opening chakras.

CorvusMask wrote:

Ezekieru wrote:

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the previous level 26-30 creatures were re-balanced to be level 21-25 but with many new Mythic abilities put onto them. Their increased threat level would still exist, but it'd exist under the framework on the PF2E system instead of what they were in PF1E.

Yeah as someone who wanted 2e mythic to have 26-30 foes i'm kinda waiting to see what the if "level 21-25 mythics" truly feel like equivalent or not :O (because it does feel kinda weird if CR 26 demon lord would be level 21 mythic in 2e and lose in fight to CR 25 Treerazer who is still level 25 in 2e)

(and if CR 26-30 ALL are level 25 mythic.. Well that its own source of confusion)

I'm just surprised because canon products refer to level 26+ creatures. For instance, Osoyo the Blackfrost Whale is explicitly level 27

If you don't mind me asking, but where is the Osoyo Blackfrost Whale mentioned? I haven't heard of it before and I want to do some research on it now.

Calliope5431 wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

Ezekieru wrote:

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the previous level 26-30 creatures were re-balanced to be level 21-25 but with many new Mythic abilities put onto them. Their increased threat level would still exist, but it'd exist under the framework on the PF2E system instead of what they were in PF1E.

Yeah as someone who wanted 2e mythic to have 26-30 foes i'm kinda waiting to see what the if "level 21-25 mythics" truly feel like equivalent or not :O (because it does feel kinda weird if CR 26 demon lord would be level 21 mythic in 2e and lose in fight to CR 25 Treerazer who is still level 25 in 2e)

(and if CR 26-30 ALL are level 25 mythic.. Well that its own source of confusion)

I'm just surprised because canon products refer to level 26+ creatures. For instance, Osoyo the Blackfrost Whale is explicitly level 27

If you don't mind me asking, but where is the Osoyo Blackfrost Whale mentioned? I haven't heard of it before and I want to do some research on it now.

The Gatewalker AP

There's also lots of little subsystems we haven't seen yet, like the rules for opening chakras.

Thnking on it, the chakra system would map pretty well into PF2E's framework. You could map each chakra to a different feat, which go up in levels, or have them act like some of the class spellcasting feats with access granted to a bundle of chakras as you go.