The Godsrain Prophecies Part Eight

Wednesday, March 27, 2024

One of the theories that I intend to run by my Lady in my compilation of these so-called Godsrain Prophecies is that they may be warnings of some kind. This is a relatively new addition to my admittedly large list of potential reasons for their existence, which range from sensible hypotheses to outlandish theories, including one recent concern that this has all been a test by my Lady to discern whether I am trustworthy and analytical enough to handle some of her more complex research needs. I know she would never do such a thing, in truth, but after a particularly vivid dream (involving my being back in one of Lorminos’s classes and asked to deliver a talk about a research paper I had somehow forgotten to do), my anxiety briefly took hold.

The warning theory is of particular interest to me because it reflects an ongoing scholarly debate about the ability to prevent a true prophecy. As noted in Beyond Aroden (which I believe I have already mentioned in these pages), there are some who believe in the Fate’s Chain theory, which holds that any action taken to prevent a foretelling only hastens its speed and effects. Conversely, others believe that all prophecy presents the opportunity to exert free will. In the words of one notorious scholar, “those who lie down in front of the hooves of prophecy instead of taking the reins of their lives deserve to be trampled to dust, even if only metaphorically.” Fiery words, and ones I am not sure I believe, but given the gravity of this particular set of prophecies, I do like the idea that this might be an opportunity to shift the course of the future.

–Yivali, Apprentice Researcher for the Lady of Graves




The Death of Desna

The thing about journeys, especially the good ones, was how easy it was to lose track of the past. Hard to move forward while looking behind you. Desna had always believed that. Each new night, each new step, had something new to offer up—a bit of knowledge to excite her, a dark horizon to invite her, a way for love to keep her grounded as she wandered from place to place.

But something else was out there. A threat that she’d forgotten from the void between the stars, seeking only to expand its brutal, ceaseless silence. Not an enemy that could be caught or stopped forever, but something she’d held at bay as it consumed star after star, by making them anew as she had done since the beginning. Back then she’d set the stars like jewels, each a perfect piece of art, and now they were a chorus that only she could truly hear, gentle bells that softly chimed and brought new hope to dreamers.

Except with so much journeying, she’d let the task slide down her list, forgetting to replace the stars that steadily winked out. She hadn’t heard their quiet ringing slowly growing quieter, as something more than silence brought new fury to its form. And by the time it reached her ear, that music wasn’t quite as rich, and starlight twinkled that much less, and butterflies flapped weakly. Absence had turned to abscess turned to deep vulnerability, and what was of the past became the killer of the present. In one fell swoop of emptiness, no longer held back by her lights, something of the Dark Tapestry she thought she’d left behind took her and Cynosure as one, and with her all the stars that filled the skies above Golarion.

Desna was loved by many, and all stepped up to play a part and try to build a new world in the space left by her death. Cayden Cailean raised cups “to Desna and to freedom” (though he stayed still for many months, sometimes with Kurgess by his side, drinking to his memories and running up his tab). Shelyn offered welcome to those who sang in Desna’s name, collecting songs and poems so she would not be forgotten. (And when they sounded out of tune, as if something was missing, she called them Desnal melodies and blessed those who repeated them, ignoring art’s new promise for the haunting elegies). Sarenrae sought her vengeance but had no one to strike out against, and so she turned to healing in its place (by never letting hurt inside, and building walls around her heart she dared Shelyn to climb).

No one could prove the daytime light was any different than before, but even on the fairest day, there was something in the air—a stagnant sort of thickness that weighed upon the spine. Scouts moved slowly, and travelers lingered though they knew to hurry (to get themselves to safety long before the starless night). With no means by which to navigate, sailors called off voyages, reduced to tiny odysseys that kept the shore in sight. And while the feeling dissipated, slowly easing day by day, everything about the world felt dormant for a time.

Even as the pace picked up, no stars returned to fill the sky. At night, only the moon shone down, and paths forward could change in ways unlucky and impossible; more often did travelers disappear from the shadowed roads ahead. And while some blamed her ancient nemesis, Ghlaunder, who was emboldened by Desna’s demise, or Zon-Kuthon, who reveled in the new depth of the darkness, only Desna would have known that what killed her waited, determining its next advance, growing in the spaces left within a starless night.

An array of 20 portraits depicting the gods of the Pathfinder setting. Asmodeus, Cayden Cailean, Desna, Erastil, Nethys, Pharasma, Urgathoa, and Zon-Kuthon’s portraits have been marked “safe.”

Do the stars and their keeper, Desna, truly protect the Universe from some fell threat that hides in the darkness beyond them? May the stars shine forever, if so!





The Dark Tapestry? It has been some time since I thought about that void of space, which has long been reported to be the home of godlike beings far beyond my comprehension. Maybe this is why I am the most intrigued about Desna’s seeming knowledge of the place and its dangers. It is the first I am hearing of a potential connection, though that may simply be because I do not attend the right discussion groups. Whether or not this prophecy turns out to be true (or, again, maybe a warning that my Lady might be able to give to Desna to prevent this outcome), I will add a note about the possible link between Desna and the Dark Tapestry to my collected papers covering her works as a deity. I am not sure when or if I will have the time to publish any of the works I have begun to write, or if there will be room in my papers for all of the data I now have, but I am glad that I have at least begun collecting information. If these prophecies make nothing else completely clear, my own takeaway is this: it is important to understand what you know (and don’t) about the gods.


About the Author

Erin Roberts has been thrilled to be able to contribute a few small threads to the fabric of Golarion in the pages of books like Lost Omens Firebrands, Lost Omens Highhelm, and Lost Omens Travel Guide. In addition to her work for Paizo, she freelances across the TTRPG world (and was selected as a Diana Jones Award Emerging Designer Program Winner in 2023), has had fiction published in magazines including Asimov’s, Clarkesworld, and The Dark, and talks about writing every week on the Writing Excuses podcast. Catch up with her latest at linktr.ee/erinroberts.

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For those who missed Luis hint this week. The next safe deity is a member of the Godclaw (not Aprils Fools)

Grand Lodge

Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
For those who missed Luis hint this week. The next safe deity is a member of the Godclaw (not Aprils Fools)

My guess is Irori. I can't imagine his loss being disruptive enough to carry sufficient dramatic weight. Just my opinion.


I think that we are getting a secret prophecy today on Aroden for April fools. What did the prophecy writer think would happen when he died?

Liberty's Edge

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Pronate11 wrote:
I think that we are getting a secret prophecy today on Aroden for April fools. What did the prophecy writer think would happen when he died?

Hello, citizen. Aroden's current doings are classified information. What is your clearance ? Report to your nearest termination center please, and have a nice day.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
For those who missed Luis hint this week. The next safe deity is a member of the Godclaw (not Aprils Fools)

Still leaves Torag, Abadar, Irori, Iomedae.

Two of them are on a line that doesn't have two 'Safe' spots. (Iomedae, Torag)

Only one is in a column with that doesn't have two 'Safe' spots (Irori).

Speculation:

From a 'narrative weight' the thought raised further up-thread of someone 'leaving' instead of 'dying' might be an interesting tale to weave.

We already had a form of this with Z-K quitting his job.

It would not be hard to see Irori feeling that the Inner Sea was 'wasting his time' and he needed to focus more on Vudra, Garund, Casmaron, Arcadia, or Tian Xia...


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Someone upthread also pointed out that Iomadae being marked safe would continue a pattern they saw in the safe picks. Iomadae and Lamashtu were their picks, if I recall rightly.


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The Raven Black wrote:
We have not heard of any deity entering the new Core 20 except Arazni.

The "Core 20" is not a diagetic notion right? Like people on Golarion don't have a notion of "these 20 Gods are more important than other Gods.

It's entirely possible that if you set a Pathfinder campaign immediately after the Age of Lost Omens started, there would still be a "Core 20" but Iomedae, Norgorber, and Cayden aren't in it because they're not divine yet. There were just three deities who fell out of fashion in the intervening centuries.


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In this case I think Raven is referring specifically to news surrounding the War of Immortals. We have not heard anything about other gods being included in the new Core 20 from an OOC perspective, not what other ages' core deities might look like


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That being said, I have vaguely wondered if any gods will be relinquishing or losing their divinity while staying alive. Not the big one, obviously.


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So, time to get your guesses in: of the four possible gods for the next prophecy, how would each of them die?

There's been a theme, of showing the gods to look bad. Sometimes it's after the death, and sometimes it's the cause of the death, so keep that in mind.

Iomedae, we've already had a "not actually divine" story, so I highly doubt it'd be that. What would make Iomedae look bad... picking a fight she couldn't win, and dying pointlessly. Not even "she tried but it wasn't enough", since that has tragic heroism in it; maybe trying to "preemptively" take down a dormant threat and waking it up, maybe failing to retreat even once there was no one left to protect (for one reason or another), maybe taking the head-on and glorious and stupid approach. Or, she might be poisoned or corrupted, and that goes unnoticed until it's weakened her enough that she does the divine equivalent of falling down the stairs and bashing her brains out.

What would make Irori look bad... further "refining" himself until everything has been burned away. Holding an Eldritch Book Wot Summons Eldritchies in his library. A follower tries to ascend by taking Irori's divinity for their own.

Torag... *laughs* Aside from that, there being a flaw in something he's made, and it fails on him at a crucial time.

Abadar... honestly I REALLY hope that there's a Great Depression reference, like someone had mentioned because not only would it be cool, but it WOULD make him look bad. All that "civilization", and it collapses in on itself; especially the visual of some currency literally being worth more as kindling, than its notational value.

Grand Archive

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
We have not heard of any deity entering the new Core 20 except Arazni.

The "Core 20" is not a diagetic notion right? Like people on Golarion don't have a notion of "these 20 Gods are more important than other Gods.

It's entirely possible that if you set a Pathfinder campaign immediately after the Age of Lost Omens started, there would still be a "Core 20" but Iomedae, Norgorber, and Cayden aren't in it because they're not divine yet. There were just three deities who fell out of fashion in the intervening centuries.

Yeah, "Core 20" is purely a meta term. In the same sense as the people of Avistan don't really know of the 10 "meta regions" like Impossible Lands and Saga Lands. "Core 20" isn't even something defined in the books.


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Huh. Of those five?

I'm suddenly guessing Abadar.

The story of *that* collapse would be *interesting*.

Liberty's Edge

Elfteiroh wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
We have not heard of any deity entering the new Core 20 except Arazni.

The "Core 20" is not a diagetic notion right? Like people on Golarion don't have a notion of "these 20 Gods are more important than other Gods.

It's entirely possible that if you set a Pathfinder campaign immediately after the Age of Lost Omens started, there would still be a "Core 20" but Iomedae, Norgorber, and Cayden aren't in it because they're not divine yet. There were just three deities who fell out of fashion in the intervening centuries.

Yeah, "Core 20" is purely a meta term. In the same sense as the people of Avistan don't really know of the 10 "meta regions" like Impossible Lands and Saga Lands. "Core 20" isn't even something defined in the books.

Core 20 is not completely meta. Those 20 are the most well-known deities in the Inner Sea Region.


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We will actually be losing half of the deities.

Source: my friend keeps calling the "Core 20" the "Big 10", and I don't know that they aren't prophetic.

Grand Lodge

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QuidEst wrote:

We will actually be losing half of the deities.

Source: my friend keeps calling the "Core 20" the "Big 10", and I don't know that they aren't prophetic.

Considering the Big 10 is actually fourteen universities at this point and about to expand to 18, it's possible that we might lose only 3 (the one replaced by Arazni, plus two more; the first being referred to hereafter as "the Chicago God").


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Here's me thinking "Big Ten" was referring to Shadowrun for some reason.

Grand Lodge

Perpdepog wrote:
Here's me thinking "Big Ten" was referring to Shadowrun for some reason.

My state's largest university was a founding member of the Big Ten Conference, so regardless of other meanings, I hear Big Ten and think of a marching band playing the "Minnesota Rouser" on a crisp fall morning.


Kittyburger wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:
Here's me thinking "Big Ten" was referring to Shadowrun for some reason.
My state's largest university was a founding member of the Big Ten Conference, so regardless of other meanings, I hear Big Ten and think of a marching band playing the "Minnesota Rouser" on a crisp fall morning.

The Big Ten is leading the way in proving that the Core 20 can contain any number of Gods.

Since, you know, the Big Ten has 18 colleges, the Big 12 has 16, and the Pac 12 has 2.


My completely personal thesis as of now.

(Maybe not overly smart to do it one day before the next "prophecy". But I am ready to be proven wrong and have the prophecy and anyone correct my daring guess. For today I try to make it rather short [Update: I failed]. If there is interest (and more time) I could try to explain more details of why I came to my conclusions.)

Big bad opposite side of the war:
The Outer Gods and the Old Ones.

One common theme of the "Godsrain Prophecies" is their uncomfortable and disturbing loss of meaning, purpose, or any higher truth. Instead, what we (or the inner gods) held dear - whatever it is (whether Asmodeus Order, Cayden's Legend of the Drunken Brave, Urgathoa's hunger, ...) becomes bland, corrupted, disfigured, unmade - sometimes even their death not overly important.

Godsrain Author:
Grandmother Spider (GMS) who composed the "Prophecies" both as an elaborate combination of
- some sort of humiliation (for usual habit, retaliation of their deeds), but not with overly destructive intentions,
- an uncertain, hidden warning about the real enemy and that something disruptive is about to happen. A tightrope walk to make the (inner) gods think while preventing rash measures. The latter could make things even worse. In this connection the stories also might serve as a sort of
- mild deterrence not to go against her (GMS) or what she holds dear. Which brings us to ...

The Killer(s):
Immortal entities corrupted by the Outer Gods. As I expect War of Immortals and related stories to affect multiple countries and cultures, there will probably be a plethora of small and big antagonists and complications, not one single opponent.

Yet, If I had to put my money on someone specific and a particular complication here, I'd say: A corrupted Achaekek.

With GMS allowing a chance to prevent greater harm, wanting her brother to be saved, but not be killed.

Further Survivors:
Iomedae and other Shyka ;-)

The (first?) Divine Victim:
I guess everyone whose death destabilizes the world, puts it closer to apocalypse, despair, insanity. However, since deaths of gods apparently can have unpredictable, sometimes counter-intuitive consequences -- because it can either diminish a godly aspect but also "release" an aspect previously "confined"/stabilized by the divinity -- this is tricky.

Today my first guess would be: The first strike goes against Gozreh - to cause global disruption and diminish divine control of nature.

If I had to make a counter-intuitive bet, it would be Norgorber, particularly Father Skinsaw. Resulting in loss of divine control over "Murder". (Could even allow that other aspects somehow keep existing.)
Note that Father Skinsaw is also Rival/Enemy of Achaekek.

PS:
The suspense is killing me, too. Anyway, if my thesis proved sufficiently "right" at the end, I hope that everyone will still have had all the fun this war promised.

They say that prophecy was a sword without hilt. ;-) How could I impartially convey it, without getting bloody hands?


calnivo wrote:

My completely personal thesis as of now.

(Maybe not overly smart to do it one day before the next "prophecy". But I am ready to be proven wrong and have the prophecy and anyone correct my daring guess. For today I try to make it rather short [Update: I failed]. If there is interest (and more time) I could try to explain more details of why I came to my conclusions.)

[...]
...

I forgot to add: A Gorum-Rain could also be a "fitting starter" for a War of Immortals... (Maybe even a better one than a dose of Father Skinsaw.) In my initial guess I just thought that Gorum was already nihilistic and dark enough for the "Dark Tapestry" to live on. But we'll see...

(Unfortunately I still can't say that my mercurial Lady (see some further posts above) is safe. But I'll mourn her in the fullness of time.)

Sovereign Court

The toe to toe comment was more on that she did actually have to engage with Rovagug. As she had to distract and lead him to Golarion and buy the others time to spring the trap. Was it a literal fight? Probably not a full on slug fest, as none of the deities could survive against him like that. I was just saying that she did have to square off with him, in some way, for a considerable amount of time. Besides, float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. It's not just about who can hit the hardest but act with the most cunning.


Other crazy thoughts...

- Yeah, the theory that whoever had from last week (that the last two would be Iomedae and Lamashtu, in either order) is still very much alive and well. I mean, I *want* to see Abadar's fall as a story, because I think it would be a cool story, but I'm not going to claim that there's anything like as strong an argument.

- If that *is* what we're going with, and you look at the pre-remaster alignments of the saved, you wind up with LG LG CG CG TN TN LE LE NE CE. That's... very nearly a pattern. So why would you break a pattern like that? Well, there's one god that it *can't* be, after all. It can't be whoever it is that actually dies. So... a bit of extra circumstantial evidence for the "Rovagug bites it" theory, I suppose.

...and while I understand that pre-remaster is pre-remaster... look at the chart. They're literally lined up in alignment order. It sure as heck isn't *nothing*.

Edit: and I was apparently already wrong before I began. Ah well. It is what it is.


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I honestly think people are focusing too much on patterns like "the placement in the rows" or "the alignment layout". We've had a lot of hints dropped about what matters here, but nowhere has it been implied we need to decode this using the Fibonacci Sequence. I think we can officially put the idea to rest. The hints are in the story and themes, not the math.


Kobold Catgirl wrote:
I honestly think people are focusing too much on patterns like "the placement in the rows" or "the alignment layout". We've had a lot of hints dropped about what matters here, but nowhere has it been implied we need to decode this using the Fibonacci Sequence. I think we can officially put the idea to rest. The hints are in the story and themes, not the math.

Well, yes.

I mean, the latest one just shot basically *all* of our math-based guesses in the head, so....


Paizo very efficiently told us, "look, just read the stories".


The Raven Black wrote:
calnivo wrote:

3.) Apart from the departing core deity and newly entering Arazni, is leaving the core 20 while staying alive an option?

(Be warned: A single "yes" could bring the speculations already distributed over 7+ weeks and 1000+ messages to an even more extreme level. I'm not sure if it was good if a certain someone was dancing even more... ;-) Maybe also a frightening perspective...)

We have not heard of a deity leaving the core 20 without dying.

{. . .}

The "Death" of Zon-Kuthon hinted at the possibility and The "Death" of Irori is exactly this possibility.

Liberty's Edge

UnArcaneElection wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
calnivo wrote:

3.) Apart from the departing core deity and newly entering Arazni, is leaving the core 20 while staying alive an option?

(Be warned: A single "yes" could bring the speculations already distributed over 7+ weeks and 1000+ messages to an even more extreme level. I'm not sure if it was good if a certain someone was dancing even more... ;-) Maybe also a frightening perspective...)

We have not heard of a deity leaving the core 20 without dying.

{. . .}

The "Death" of Zon-Kuthon hinted at the possibility and The "Death" of Irori is exactly this possibility.

We do not know that Ultra-Irori is leaving the Core 20.


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Godsrain Contingencies (8) Desna is out now!
When the stars disappear, the songs fade, the wings no longer flutter, the world is thrust into mourning. Desnal melodies distract everyone, inversion compasses help connect people with true north shaken, and the astronomers, geomancers, rangers, and scouts, learn to embrace the new night.
People who've already purchased can head back on over to Pathfinder Infinite to download your updates. For people who're interested now, purchase it here!
Week 8 is 3 pages dedicated to new material for navigating the darkness.

  • 6 god transitions
  • 3 new feats
  • 1 new item, the inversion compasses
  • New Geomancer options with Night terrain

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Still think all this is a big fake-out and Asmodeus is the dead god walking (due to the continued shedding of connections back to D&D content).

But I am greatly ignorant about many things.

Paizo Employee Community and Social Media Specialist

CNichols wrote:

Still think all this is a big fake-out and Asmodeus is the dead god walking (due to the continued shedding of connections back to D&D content).

But I am greatly ignorant about many things.

Can vouch that Asmodeus is safe. No fake out.


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CNichols wrote:

Still think all this is a big fake-out and Asmodeus is the dead god walking (due to the continued shedding of connections back to D&D content).

But I am greatly ignorant about many things.

Aside from what Jon just said, the most relevant piece of information you were missing is that the dead deity ball has been rolling since before the OGL mess.


The Raven Black wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
calnivo wrote:

3.) Apart from the departing core deity and newly entering Arazni, is leaving the core 20 while staying alive an option?

(Be warned: A single "yes" could bring the speculations already distributed over 7+ weeks and 1000+ messages to an even more extreme level. I'm not sure if it was good if a certain someone was dancing even more... ;-) Maybe also a frightening perspective...)

We have not heard of a deity leaving the core 20 without dying.

{. . .}

The "Death" of Zon-Kuthon hinted at the possibility and The "Death" of Irori is exactly this possibility.

We do not know that Ultra-Irori is leaving the Core 20.

In that prophecy, regardless of whether or not he was leaving the Core 20, he was leaving the realm of divinity and going beyond.


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Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
CNichols wrote:

Still think all this is a big fake-out and Asmodeus is the dead god walking (due to the continued shedding of connections back to D&D content).

But I am greatly ignorant about many things.

Can vouch that Asmodeus is safe. No fake out.

A contract made you tell that.

;-)

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