The Godsrain Prophecies Part Seven

Wednesday, March 20, 2024

Something that I have been mulling over for some time (but have yet to mention in these annotations) is the naming of the Godsrain Prophecies. By the time I first heard of them, they had already been given that title, but nothing I have read so far has given me any indication as to how or why. Personally, I would never presume to name a collection of this potential impact and importance without a very clear reason, lest I end up in a repeat of the Fatal Four disaster. (To think that one scribe’s decision to include a bit of wordplay in their recounting of a minor historical prophecy would lead to not one but two assassinations is truly beyond the pale!) Issues like this are the reason that Lorminos insisted I read Notorious Names and Narrative Novelties: Navigating the Nuance of Nomenclature early on in my studies (a book that could easily have been 150 pages instead of over 700, in my personal opinion). While I must make reading these prophecies a priority, I will also endeavor to track down the origin of the word Godsrain. For one thing, it is possible there was a mistaken transcription somewhere along the line. Perhaps they should instead be known as the God’s Reign Prophecies, alluding to the end of a specific god’s reign? It is something to at least consider.

–Yivali, Apprentice Researcher for the Lady of Graves




The “Death” of Zon-Kuthon

Shelyn has tried countless times to touch the heart of Zon-Kuthon, but in the end her music is what dooms the Midnight Lord. He’s long ignored his sister’s tears, no matter how they stream or pool, collecting any that he can and using them as salt to rub into followers’ wounds. Her pleading declarations he considers almost background noise, a counterpoint that makes the pain that echoes through the Netherworld sound that much more divine. But when she finds the beauty in the way his Kuthites scream and whimper, weaves together suffering into a string of rousing chords, builds melodies from dripping blood and rhythms from a clanging chain? Only she could find the art in all the suffering he wields, a dulcet murmuring that calls out from an orchestra of pain. Dou-bral, brother, I love you still. Dou-bral, come back to me.

With newfound strength, Dou-bral returns, soul breaking through its cage of bones and kicking out the usurper who’d lived beneath his skin. But even free he’s trapped inside a body built for cruelty, his face a mask of agony that tells a brutal story—scars and cries and sharpened blades, blood and tears and pain. The anguish he has known and caused, the torment Zon-Kuthon embraced—how can he reconcile himself with all he now remembers? He tries to flee back to his cell, to turn back into what he was, but Zon-Kuthon is memory now and only he remains.

Dou-bral can feel divinity like sparks beneath his fingertips, but with all that he’s done and been, he cannot now reward himself and let himself play god. He takes the power in his hands (so good now at destroying things) and rips it from his very being, leaving something more than man but less than deity. He stumbles from the Netherworld, his ears ringing with tortured screams (most of which are not his own), and makes his way to Pangolais, as if Zon-Kuthon’s capital will help him understand the things his other self has done. And when Shelyn walks next to him, her arm outstretched in kindness, the glaive she’d taken from him offered up with open hands, he turns his back and walks away, her music souring in his ears, reminding him of every chain he used to break their father.

Art and beauty pay a price for all that Shelyn’s sacrificed—the nightmares that disturbed her rest as she crafted a song of pain, the knowledge that Dou-bral is back but still wrapped up in suffering, the loss she feels from victory that’s nothing like she’d hoped. In theaters and galleries, on stage and page and instrument, creative minds start struggling—the colors dim, the music fades, the movements don’t flow smoothly—and lovers’ disillusions grow as nothing feels the way it was, until the disappointment drives some life-long pairs apart, an echo of a sadness that she cannot seem to shake.

Dou-bral’s other flesh and blood, the spirit-wolf turned Prince in Chains, roams the grounds of Xovaikain, trying to fill the absence that his son has left behind. But for all his vicious howling, what is left of Thron is not a god, and soon two new contenders come with plans to claim the Netherworld—Asmodeus who wants to bring new pain to the unworthy, adding a few new items to the tools he has for torment, and Iomedae, who seeks to free the souls still left within the realm, turning their search for pain into a sacrifice for glory. Neither willing to back down, they fortify positions, preparing for a battle that will change the Netherworld.

Far from the squabbling of the gods, Dou-bral travels through Nidal, hoping that he will find some path to redemption. Instead, he watches Cheliax, no longer held by ancient pact to stay within its borderlines, begin to take Nidalese lands, while members of the Umbral Court each claim to be Zon-Kuthon’s heir and stab each other in the back to claim his legacy.

An array of 20 portraits depicting the gods of the Pathfinder setting. Asmodeus, Cayden Cailean, Erastil, Nethys, Pharasma, Urgathoa, and Zon-Kuthon’s portraits have been marked “safe.”

Is the tainting of love and beauty worth Shelyn’s sacrifice if the shadow her brother’s replacement leaves behind remains to darken the world?





I will be completely honest here: Zon-Kuthon terrifies me! Always has. And yet this prophecy wasn’t scary at all. At least not to me. My Lady, I know, fears little, but I have been feeling the whole set of emotions during these annotations—terrified one minute and smiling the next. I truly thought I would be shivering after reading this, but I think I feel more sad than anything. Miss Shelyn trying so hard to free her brother and achieving her goal, only for him to reciprocate no love? It almost reminds me of my role in collecting these prophecies. I have wanted to be a part of something big to show my Lady how I can be of help to her for some time, and yet that means collecting a group of so-called prophecies that could be devastating in the wrong hands. It is odd to think of the gods having the same types of problems that the rest of us sometimes do. We revere them, and yet, especially as I read these prophecies, they seem more… mortal somehow? Or not. I hope that doesn’t sound too disrespectful. Best to leave this line of thought behind and move on to the next prophecy.


About the Author

Erin Roberts has been thrilled to be able to contribute a few small threads to the fabric of Golarion in the pages of books like Lost Omens Firebrands, Lost Omens Highhelm, and Lost Omens Travel Guide. In addition to her work for Paizo, she freelances across the TTRPG world (and was selected as a Diana Jones Award Emerging Designer Program Winner in 2023), has had fiction published in magazines including Asimov’s, Clarkesworld, and The Dark, and talks about writing every week on the Writing Excuses podcast. Catch up with her latest at linktr.ee/erinroberts.

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If the pattern continues, one of these three will die:
-Iomedae
-Torag
-Sarenrae


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My girlfriend pointed out something funny, which is that if we consider that "Godsrain" might be a typo or misprint...well, that word sounds an awful lot like the name of a particular god.

Aside from the Godsrain/Gozren suggestion, Gozreh is the embodiment of the sea, wind and skies. Surely their shattered divinity would rain down upon the land, especially if killed in grand enough fashion. In the absence of Gozreh's balancing presence, planar boundaries weaken, the bars of Rovagug's prison begin to rust, aberrations and mutations become commonplace, and divinity suffuses the natural world. Perhaps the First World pours in to fill the gaps Gozreh left behind, or perhaps it becomes more distant than ever.

Also, if some almighty elder evil breaks out, Gozreh, who walks the earth without any extraplanar protection, could very well be vulnerable.

I am settling more and more towards Rovagug, though. What we've seen time and time again here is that the deaths of evil gods do not make the world a better place. Rovagug's threat has become stagnant; it's a bullet we know Paizo won't fire. But what happens when Rovagug wakes up?

The orc gods are dying. We know at least part of why--there's a new up-and-coming orc goddess who may be challenging them one-by-one. But doesn't it also form such perfect symmetry with the rise of Rovagug, famously held in reverence across Belkzen? What if Rovagug finally gets out, or devours itself in a fit of ravenous hatred? What if Rovagug eats the Starstone? What if the rotting corpse of Rovagug infests the land above with monsters, the blood of the mightiest of the gods leaking into the earth and suffusing all mortal life with the potential for divine power? What if the death of Rovagug undoes the deities' nonaggression pact? What if Tarrasque wakes up?

I think Rovagug briefly escaping is very possible even if it isn't the god that dies. How else are so many gods going to die all at once as a consequence of one god's death? But I think he's a strong take in his own right.

The obvious takes are the popular ones--Iomedae or a member of the Prismatic Ray are very, very strong picks at this point. I fully agree that the money is probably, logically, on them. But I honestly think all of the gods except Lamashtu and Calistria are potentially on the docket. I don't much care for the idea that the dead god has to be one of the "important" ones; I think that's a strong metatextual argument, but not an interesting one to really talk about.

EDIT: Also, in a scorching-hot take, the talk about all these prophecies making the gods feel more "mortal" makes me wonder if all these gods are due for a nerf. That's a scary thought.


keftiu wrote:
I maintain my hope that Stolen Fate's mention of the sun is a fake-out, pointing to the deities of Mzali instead of Sarenrae... but I admit, I'm starting to sweat.

Wait you figured out who it was over a year ago???? I'll give you a refresher hint but that prophecy isn't referring to a god and someone who has already died in setting.


MadScientistWorking wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I maintain my hope that Stolen Fate's mention of the sun is a fake-out, pointing to the deities of Mzali instead of Sarenrae... but I admit, I'm starting to sweat.
Wait you found who it was over a year ago???? o.O

It's a hint to something but not necessarily this, it could easily be a hint towards something else entirely.


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Benjamin Tait wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I maintain my hope that Stolen Fate's mention of the sun is a fake-out, pointing to the deities of Mzali instead of Sarenrae... but I admit, I'm starting to sweat.
Wait you found who it was over a year ago???? o.O
It's a hint to something but not necessarily this, it could easily be a hint towards something else entirely.

Keftiu was the first person in the community to know about the event months before it was ever announced. Its not referring to the deity that dies in this event but the person who kills them off. Said person is a

Spoiler:
burning sun orc
.

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I'm beginning to think the Prismatic Ray deities are fairly safe, and that the change coming to that pantheon is more likely just a rename, or perhaps one of them being a bit rattled by the effects of the Divine War. And I now find myself gravitating towards gods I wouldn't have thought in danger when this whole things was announced as being the ones to bite it. Namely, people here are convincing me that Rovagug (who is so central to Golarion) and Gozreh (who's just kinda boring) aren't as perfectly safe as I thought.

Rovagug in particular is interesting. His confinement keeps deific intervention in Golarion at a minimum so as not to crack the cell; what happens if he's out of the picture? And more, what happens to the Darklands if he's gone? The old lore centered around how his corrupting influence was the reason behind many of the awful stuff down here. And what happens to a planet when its raging, blasphemous heart is but a rotting corpse?

...but I'm still kind of hoping he survives because "The Cage" is a fantastic title for a planet. Anyway, I find myself unexpectedly wishing for an Irori prophecy, just to see what it's like. I'm coming around on the guy. Also that other one, but I should really stop talking about Her.


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okay but what about "The Casket". ;)

Irori feels like such a natural pick for the theme of sharing godhood with mortals everywhere. I feel like, on that boring metatextual level, Irori is one of the weirder gods for his sort of "what if we just stuck a Buddha in our extremely Christian cosmology" vibes, but a divine suicide would be a really cool way for him to go. Imagine what happens when mere mortals gain the strength to go get Naderi therapy kill minor gods and starting their own cults. Murder The Gods And Topple Their Thrones.


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MadScientistWorking wrote:
Benjamin Tait wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I maintain my hope that Stolen Fate's mention of the sun is a fake-out, pointing to the deities of Mzali instead of Sarenrae... but I admit, I'm starting to sweat.
Wait you found who it was over a year ago???? o.O
It's a hint to something but not necessarily this, it could easily be a hint towards something else entirely.
Keftiu was the first person in the community to know about the event months before it was ever announced. Its not referring to the deity that dies in this event but the person who kills them off. Said person is a ** spoiler omitted **.

Huh? I've pointed to Mahja Firehair because Luis Loza wrote and highlighted the PFS scenario she's relevant in as a hint to the dead deity thing, somewhere on Reddit. I don't have any secret insight, I just read a lot!


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This is... not the sibling I'd been hoping to get a safe confirmation for. Back to biting what's left of my nails.


The Raven Black wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
This one made me feel real sad. It's an interesting take on the classic redemption arc, and honestly it's something people should take into account when writing them: A redemption arc doesn't absolve a character of the things they did before they decided to change, and that's REALLY rough to deal with. Redemption and forgiveness are two very different things.

TBH I definitely did not read it as the redemption of either Zon-Kuthon or Dou Bral.

So Shelyn did go to the dark side and mortals suffered for it and she came back empty-handed.

We sure do have a lot of selfish/short-sighted deities in these stories.

Feels like all of them got a severe case of Arodenitis. A divine illness that turns a deity into the worst self-centered short-sighted jerk possible with terrible consequences for their worshippers.

Honestly, like I've said, the Godsrain Prophecies come off as equal parts blistering satire and moral fable about the ways gods fall. So if this is a warning of "Don't be Aroden", it's hardly a stretch to invoke a pandemic of Arodenitis.

Scarab Sages

I was all but certain ZK would be one of the ones to actually go down. Still, I like this prophecy, and even if it doesn't apply to the Age of Lost Omens, I hope it applies to Starfinder.


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Deities that are exceptionally problematic based on tables I've played at:

Iomedae (folks seem to dig her 'Crusader in the medieval style' vibe)
Gorum (folks use this as a license to murderhobo)
Sarenrae (See Iomedae)
Torag (See Iomedae, but add in a spin of racism)
Abadar (folks use this as an excuse to be greedy jerks and milk every last copper)

Out of the remainder, I've seen incredible portrayal of followers of:

Calistria (folks carefully measuring vengeance and keeping the 'lust' thing low key)
Irori (folks helping others learn more about themselves)
Desna (folks helping out travelers in need with no ask for reward)
Shelyn (folks recognizing beauty is not in the eye of the beholder, but in everything)

Ones I haven't seen (or the players were really careful to keep them under wraps/not-obvious):

Norgorber
Gozreh
Lamashtu

I would not lament the loss of the first group because of the problematic issues. It'd feel awful to lose any of the second group, the only one I could really dig and be 'okay' with would be Irori. Third group I really don't have an opinion on.


Speaking of Starfinder, since it's mentioned an Shelyn has been off seeking a cure for ZK all of 1E and earlier, she's a good bet for having changes happen to her, because it's not like it would directly contradict anything established in Starfinder canon; we have "goddess of love and beauty, ZK's sister, looking for a cure" and that's it; maybe she's different to how we know her in Pathfinder, we have no way of knowing. (And yes this works even if the "changes" are that she dies; a god coming back to life isn't really any weirder than a god dying, after all.)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
keftiu wrote:

Huh? I've pointed to Mahja Firehair because Luis Loza wrote and highlighted the PFS scenario she's relevant in as a hint to the dead deity thing, somewhere on Reddit. I don't have any secret insight, I just read a lot!

Hmm, I took a look at that bit in SF Book 3....and the imagery spread across the whole AP plus this...

Maybe Sarnerae does get eaten/destroyed. The hints all line up.


I’m placing my bet Sarenrae, Desna and Lamashtu will be marked safe over the next three weeks


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Here's a really dumb shot in the dark: Rovagug either gets out or begins to bleed through the very essence of Golarion. Gozreh, in some sort of noble sacrifice/terrifying surrender, merges with Rovagug. Gozreh's being was already fluid, but now it's something wild and terrifying. The God of Nature becomes a god of storms and fire. Thunderclouds spill across the sky, and the Eye of Abendego opens.

In the end, either the malice of Rovagug is subsumed into Gozreh, the strength of Gozreh is devoured by Rovagug, or maybe a pinch of both. Regardless, only chaos can come of this.


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BookBird wrote:

I'm beginning to think the Prismatic Ray deities are fairly safe, and that the change coming to that pantheon is more likely just a rename, or perhaps one of them being a bit rattled by the effects of the Divine War. And I now find myself gravitating towards gods I wouldn't have thought in danger when this whole things was announced as being the ones to bite it. Namely, people here are convincing me that Rovagug (who is so central to Golarion) and Gozreh (who's just kinda boring) aren't as perfectly safe as I thought.

Rovagug in particular is interesting. His confinement keeps deific intervention in Golarion at a minimum so as not to crack the cell; what happens if he's out of the picture? And more, what happens to the Darklands if he's gone? The old lore centered around how his corrupting influence was the reason behind many of the awful stuff down here. And what happens to a planet when its raging, blasphemous heart is but a rotting corpse?

...but I'm still kind of hoping he survives because "The Cage" is a fantastic title for a planet. Anyway, I find myself unexpectedly wishing for an Irori prophecy, just to see what it's like. I'm coming around on the guy. Also that other one, but I should really stop talking about Her.

I am still holding onto hope that Shelyn "dies" and merges with her brother. But far less.

Rovagug I don't want to see, I don't want the gods to be more active in Golarion and I don't want their power hierarchy to break down without the nuclear arms pact that is Rovagug. It is something I could see in a pf3e and setting shake-up, but not with only one book. I just feel like paizo couldn't feasibly do it justice and as such it would just end up being hand waived to keep the status quo and therefore all interesting changes would be moot.

I don't get why everyone finds Gozreh to be boring, or why that makes it a good target to kill off the dual natured God of Nature.


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Jan Caltrop wrote:
Speaking of Starfinder, since it's mentioned an Shelyn has been off seeking a cure for ZK all of 1E and earlier, she's a good bet for having changes happen to her, because it's not like it would directly contradict anything established in Starfinder canon; we have "goddess of love and beauty, ZK's sister, looking for a cure" and that's it; maybe she's different to how we know her in Pathfinder, we have no way of knowing. (And yes this works even if the "changes" are that she dies; a god coming back to life isn't really any weirder than a god dying, after all.)

Unfortunately paizo have made starfinder an alternate timeline, I say unfortunately because it also means the mystery of the gap is meaningless and in turn so is any lore in starfinder relating to pf2s/pf2e.


WRT Gozreh, I think that's the opposite of what they were saying--they'd discounted Gozreh in a target because they saw Gozreh as boring. You know, like how we all know it's not going to be Abadar.


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man wouldn't we all look so stupid if it's abadar


pixierose wrote:

Oh wow this one caused genuine ache.

Also I get more and more nervous for some of my favorite deities.

Yup, I was totally wrong.

Could still be Shelyn but I doubt that. I honestly wonder at this point if it actually is going to be Sarenrae, insane as it sounds.


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Also, I know I am all speculation, but I do want to take a moment to acknowledge how good this story is. It's such a devastating concept, and told so beautifully. This part in particular is haunting.

Quote:
In theaters and galleries, on stage and page and instrument, creative minds start struggling—the colors dim, the music fades, the movements don’t flow smoothly—and lovers’ disillusions grow as nothing feels the way it was, until the disappointment drives some life-long pairs apart, an echo of a sadness that she cannot seem to shake.

"Nothing feels the way it was, ... an echo of a sadness that she cannot seem to shake." This is too real.


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The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
Unfortunately paizo have made starfinder an alternate timeline, I say unfortunately because it also means the mystery of the gap is meaningless and in turn so is any lore in starfinder relating to pf2s/pf2e.

I don't think it's at all meaningless. It's still a pretty big deal as far as Starfinder is concerned. It's just that it doesn't mean all that much on the Pathfinder side.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:

okay but what about "The Casket". ;)

Irori feels like such a natural pick for the theme of sharing godhood with mortals everywhere. I feel like, on that boring metatextual level, Irori is one of the weirder gods for his sort of "what if we just stuck a Buddha in our extremely Christian cosmology" vibes, but a divine suicide would be a really cool way for him to go. Imagine what happens when mere mortals gain the strength to go get Naderi therapy kill minor gods and starting their own cults. Murder The Gods And Topple Their Thrones.

"If you should encounter the Buddha, kill him."


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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
man wouldn't we all look so stupid if it's abadar

I mean, I personally find Abadar very interesting and my #5 favourite core deity, so my reasons on why he's probably ok is more because he's the in-universe explication why money and calendars (which might have different names for months & year 0's, but apart from that are entirely the same) are standardized throughout the entire world.


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Leliel the 12th wrote:

Okay, that's a brilliant spin, because Shelyn does it, only to discover she can't just undo millennia of self-inflicted suffering - Dou-Bral is still the god of despair, just of a different kind than Zon-Kuthon.

This comes off as the writer going up to her and shouting in her face to stop living in the past - let go, and begin again.

Though Arzani is likely most pleased to have someone join the Divine PTSD club to trauma dump at each other.

I don't really read it that way - no matter what, Zon-Kuthon was holding Dou-Bral as a prisoner in his own body, and causing harm to many through it. He still has trauma to work through, but that doesn't mean he should have stayed trapped forever. Now, he can actually choose to travel, to figure himself out, and try to find a way to move forward - and perhaps to reconcile with Shelyn, who I don't think was expecting him to be exactly as he was, but maybe had been hoping he'd at least let her help. And, because of that, Zon-Kuthon isn't torturing people anymore - and yeah, other people started fighting over the hole he left, but they all chose to do that on their own.


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Eldritch Yodel wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
man wouldn't we all look so stupid if it's abadar
I mean, I personally find Abadar very interesting and my #5 favourite core deity, so my reasons on why he's probably ok is more because he's the in-universe explication why money and calendars (which might have different names for months & year 0's, but apart from that are entirely the same) are standardized throughout the entire world.

Lehman Brothers! Lehman Brothers! Give me my subprime mortgage crisis!


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Another "gods suck" prophecy. Dou-bral is wracked with guilt, but abandons his post instead of trying to make things better, and in her grief Shelyn kills love and music.

Not saying their actions don't make sense in context, both of them are dealing with a lot of stuff here, but that it fits very neatly into the paradigm being laid out in the rest of the stories.


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Eldritch Yodel wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
man wouldn't we all look so stupid if it's abadar
I mean, I personally find Abadar very interesting and my #5 favourite core deity, so my reasons on why he's probably ok is more because he's the in-universe explication why money and calendars (which might have different names for months & year 0's, but apart from that are entirely the same) are standardized throughout the entire world.

The War of Immortals clearly starts due to someone messing up a measurement conversion.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Going back to some earlier predictions of mine...

I don't think it'll be Rover (or any of the Nasties), but if it is a "team bad guy" deity biting the dust, he's the most likely of the remaining Core- Nordberg sponsors a whole lot of different types of villainy, and Lamashtu is honestly cool and engaging as an adversary in ways Rover fails to be (as in, she can sometimes play at divine politics, whereas everybody hates Rover).

Expanding my predictions...

Team Tepid:

Irori just doesn't do all that much one way or the other. It would certainly be a huge deal in, say, Vudra or Jalmeray, but he's a deity who has been used with a very light hand most of the time. After all this build, having him get picked off would likely be greeted with sighs of bemused relief across a lot of the more invested playerbase, sorry to say.

Abadar fills a useful narrative niche, since (a bit like Helm over in Forgotten Realms) his followers can get up to both wonderful and utterly awful things. He's also kind of load-bearing as "that god whose clerics are always on hand to cast spells for money." Killing him would usher in some chaos and fun, but it feels... not quite as "meh" as Irori, but it's in there.

Gorum- Diet Khorne is a possibility, but I dunno. He brings something to the table from a PC option point of view- the "Crom," a god for warriors to yell about who doesn't really stick his nose in all that much. He might be kind of a generic fantasy war god in a lot of ways, but cliches are cliches for a reason, and he fits anyone who wants to get their Conan on really well.

Gozreh- Well, he's more interesting than Obligatory Tree-Themed Green-Man Knockoff types, and I don't see her dying as being all that much of a fuss. And Goz-masks are cool as hell. Besides, as essentially the only one of the core pantheon to get much love in southern Garund for most of 1E, she'd be a weird one to kill off. I think he's probably safe.

Calistria- Still where I have my death bet marker placed, less because I'm particularly confident than because I think she's a really neat and interesting deity who would genuinely be missed without causing too much real-life depression. Admittedly a bit of a longshot (I think the loss of a Team Good Guy deity is far more likely), but sometimes you gotta bet on a longshot.

Team Good Guy:

With Erastil and Cayden (booooooo) safe, we're down to some hardcore fan favorites and... Torag.

Desna- This is the one that has me worried, because she's easily one of my favorite deities in TTRPG history. I don't think she'll get it in the neck (she's thematically load-bearing to a lot of things about Golarion as a setting and has a lot of neat divine politics she's wrapped up in), but the possibility is there. And can you imagine the story if it's her?

Torag- Frankly... people accuse the likes of Gozreh or Nethys or Gorum of being boring, but Torag takes the cake for me. He's not all that different from, you know. Moradin. But he's also the only "dwarf" deity in the Core 20, and the rest of the Dwarven pantheon remains kinda under-fleshed after all of this time. I put him in the Irori basket... unlikely because it just doesn't seem like it'd hit all that hard.

Iomedae- Honestly, what has her safe-ish in my mind? Having Aroden's prior herald step into her "slot," even with completely different divine concerns, just feels like a lazy cop-out. That said, her death would have a massive impact on the setting. As a Paladin/valor goddess, she's got a narrow but important thematic focus from a TTRPG point of view- and I really want to see how she and Arazni deal with one another as deities of comparable standing. I just think the particular story (with Arazni becoming a core deity) is more interesting with Iomedae alive.

Sarenrae- Of the various good deities, she seems like someone who'd take one for the team. So I don't think she'll get to. As with Iomedae, I just think the story is more interesting if she's around to deal with the fallout. That said, of the good deities, she's one whose demise would have an immediate and stunning impact- not least since she's the patron deity of the iconic cleric! Call it a longshot.

Shelyn- I'm honestly not seeing it, not with Zon-Kuthon still around. Their dynamic is a nice bit of iron-jawed tragedy.


Well, now I have no idea.

My choices from "who is most likely to get killed" from the beginning were Urgathoa, Zon-Kuthon, Nethys, Erastil, and Abadar so I assume The Scales and Streets are next week.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

One thing I think that gives Torag a bit of a red flag for me is that he feels somewhat 'safer' to kill. He's an ancestry-focused deity in a series that's been trying to distance itself from the old trend of ancestral monocultures, and his general spheres of influence overlap the most with other existing core deities.

Kiling someone like Desna or Sarenrae might 'hit harder' but I also feel like that would kind of suck for the game because they're a much bigger part of Golarion's product identity.

I'm sure they could write the story well enough, but it just seems like removing some of these gods would just make the setting a little bit less, and I'm not even really a fan of either of my examples individually.

Who knows how much Paizo is weighing meta-considerations, but I feel like it's a question worth considering.


I have a bit of a long-term prediction, that whoever dies, there will be a future event where they come back, but it'll be after years. Maybe the transition to 3E. Because if I recall correctly, they said the dead deity wasn't going to be brought back "at the end of the thing", nothing about them not pulling a Red Hood.
...which honestly I think would be really cool; the deity comes back, possibly changed, and the world's already moved on without them. No returning to where they had been, because that spot has been filled.

The whole problem with "killing off a character and then bringing them back to life" is the idea of doing something for shock value, but then undoing it so you can maintain the status quo. But if the status quo does NOT survive, then "the character's continued status as dead" becomes less important.

Sovereign Court

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Cole Deschain wrote:
Calistria… …without causing too much real-life depression.

The problem is… she has a ton of really positive messages in there that people don’t see or skim over. I really hope she doesn’t die and that Paizo would shine more light on some of her more positive aspects. “The only true taboo is not being true to yourself.” She is gender fluid, taking a shape of a man when she wants to. Treats sex as something that is to be respected. It’s workers have power and choose to do what they want to. A focus on not dwelling negatively on your past and instead to learn from it. “Tend to your wounds first” is a healthy and helpful way of sayin to make sure to take care of yourself. Her faith, while not big on love, do fall in love. They just don’t have typical relationships and as someone who partakes in that it’s just very nice to see from a core deity. Something you will see on the cover without having to dig through obscure gods, or simply just not depicting it as something purely holy or totally evil. I’m rambling as usual but I really hope she doesn’t bite it, just so we can keep a often overlooked part of sex and relationships, and keep a truly fascinating goddess in the setting.


Mark Moreland wrote:
That's a bingo!

Yeah! Just what I was hoping for.

I will stick with idiotic geometry-based guesses and say Column 1 Row 2 (is that Shelyn?) is the next safe deity. That's a wrap-around four in a row diagonal, going the other way.

Dark Archive

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Perpdepog wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Murder The Gods And Topple Their Thrones.
"If you should encounter the Buddha, kill him."

And then afterwards be like "Nah, I'm done with this" and become a noodle seller. :3

Anyway, of the gods that are left, I would pick these for maximum chaos-- *Rush out of room being chased by homing tranquilizer darts.*

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm kinda skeptical on it being Rovagug, but I admit that its not impossible anymore.

One thing I don't think anybody mentioned yet is that Rovagug is 100% type of deity you can have doomsday cults trying to bring him back to life, due to how fricking hard his spawn are to perma kill because even dead ones have habit of springing back to life. So devs could make big event of Rovagug breaking out, dying, his cult losing powers, but his spawn and ever present doomsday button threat of his return still existing.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
man wouldn't we all look so stupid if it's abadar

I feel like thought it really can't be Abadar though because Abadar is the MAIN non evil antagonist church god. Like, come on, who would fulfill that role if he died? x'D

Like Abadar npcs are rarely LG and if they are, they usually don't like the church much, the LN church members are usually obstructionists to PCs and when the adventure wants them to be punched instead of being dealt in non hostile manner, suddenly LE antipaladin ones show up.

(but yeah I kinda feel like everyone would think Abadar is less boring if he was catfolk or something. Like the deity itself isn't really as boring as people say he is)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Another thought. This is going to be the new Core 20 going forward, i.e. 19 of these gods + Arazni. So they're going to be the central, primary gods for Pathfinder as a game.

So imagine someone who's never played PF before getting introduced to the game post-WoI. Of the Core 20, which do you think (if they never existed) would make a reader think "Huh I wonder why there isn't a God of X" and which wouldn't?

Maybe that's not important. Maybe "Well we don't have X because..." is a good hook, but I also think that as a system and a game it's nice to have a wide variety of bases covered, and that might be an incentive to preserve certain deities (or leave others more vulnerable)


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Squiggit wrote:

Another thought. This is going to be the new Core 20 going forward, i.e. 19 of these gods + Arazni. So they're going to be the central, primary gods for Pathfinder as a game.

So imagine someone who's never played PF before getting introduced to the game post-WoI. Of the Core 20, which do you think (if they never existed) would make a reader think "Huh I wonder why there isn't a God of X" and which wouldn't?

Maybe that's not important. Maybe "Well we don't have X because..." is a good hook, but I also think that as a system and a game it's nice to have a wide variety of bases covered, and that might be an incentive to preserve certain deities (or leave others more vulnerable)

Admittedly, way back when it first clicked that Desna wasn't actually the moon goddess (just everything else in the night sky) I definitely wondered why there was no Core 20 lunar deity.

Still, this is a good point to think on. We know that at least some parts of the Core 20 were designed because this or that class or aspect of adventuring needed a god to represent them. Whether the designers are holding onto that intent, even knowing that Arazni isn't taking up the mantle of the dead deity, it bears consideration... like if only one "Rogue" god survives, which is it, the spirited trickster Calistria, or the "not necessarily evil" Norgorber? Or is it both of them and it turns out we don't need a dedicated Paladin deity now that Champions can choose any faith?

... I wonder if after the reveal the designers will open up about some of their meta reasons for choosing the deity they did.


I do find it a little interesting that Arazni and Calistria are going to have to share revenge - though the former is significantly less interested in moderating it among her followers.


By a remarkable coincidence, I just found a credible soundtrack for this entry of the Godsrain Prophecies.


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Squiggit wrote:

Another thought. This is going to be the new Core 20 going forward, i.e. 19 of these gods + Arazni. So they're going to be the central, primary gods for Pathfinder as a game.

So imagine someone who's never played PF before getting introduced to the game post-WoI. Of the Core 20, which do you think (if they never existed) would make a reader think "Huh I wonder why there isn't a God of X" and which wouldn't?

Maybe that's not important. Maybe "Well we don't have X because..." is a good hook, but I also think that as a system and a game it's nice to have a wide variety of bases covered, and that might be an incentive to preserve certain deities (or leave others more vulnerable)

I think this is a really understated and critical point. We all love to talk about what would be a fun story development or an exciting twist, but Pathfinder isn't just for veteran players, it's for newcomers, too. That's why I think Lamashtu is safe--she is simply too valuable to the setting's core identity. It's also why I'd be, surprised, if it's Desna. I'd say she is the other "core" deity of the core deities. It literally all starts with those two.

The truth is, most "anyone can die" stories aren't really "anyone can die" stories. A story serves a purpose beyond shocking and exciting the audience. Likewise, a setting needs to remain accessible no matter when you're joining. If there was a cataclysm that obliterated Varisia, sure, that would be very exciting, but it would also eliminate one of the most important regions to Golarion's identity. New players would be left without that anchoring point. That matters.

A Golarion without Desna is simply less Golarion than it used to be. We could spare Pharasma, or Shelyn (awful as it'd be), or even Rovagug, but Desna? Honestly? I think killing her would be a mistake. It would represent the writers' priorities shifting too far from "let's make a great world to play in" to "let's tell a great story". And it will be a great story, and I'll love it, but I'll also think it's a mistake.

Anyways, man, if Shelyn dies, Naderi's either getting a dramatic redemption arc or entering a complete spiral. I really hope she gets some progression one way or another. She's a favorite of mine!

EDIT: Mind you, if it is Desna, I do trust the writers to do it justice, and maybe what comes out of it will be a way better setting than I could have imagined! I definitely don't think Golarion would be Ruined by the loss of Desna or Lamashtu. I'm just, you know, as a random internet kobold, a little skeptical of the choice? But Golarion is a setting and a story, and maybe storytellers just can't write with one hand tied behind their backs forever.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Mind you, when it comes to the non-Core deities... all bets are off. I think it might actually be a hell of a bloodbath.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

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Y'all have the most interesting theories and discussions. I love it! Especially because I know what I know...


* I get confused when folks talk about Tian-Xia gods being part of their own Core 20. Is this a thing? Surely the gods aren’t geo-specific? I would imagine you could still call to/worship any god whether you are in Mwangi, Sarusan, Arcadia etc

* I like KC’s girlfriends “Gozrehen Prophecies” concept…


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:
* I get confused when folks talk about Tian-Xia gods being part of their own Core 20. Is this a thing?

More or less.

While some deities are equally relevant the world over, and while a priest's abilities aren't geography-based, local culture often gives other deities primacy.

To use Tian Xia as an example, Abadar, Desna, Irori, Lamashtu, Pharasma, and Shelyn are all considered pretty important there, but Shizuru is the solar deity and Sarenrae doesn't get enough market share to be particularly prominent. So if your characters are operating there, you're far more likely to run into priests of Shizuru than Sarenrae. Assassins are more likely to call up Yaezhing than Norgorber. And so forth.


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OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:

* I get confused when folks talk about Tian-Xia gods being part of their own Core 20. Is this a thing? Surely the gods aren’t geo-specific? I would imagine you could still call to/worship any god whether you are in Mwangi, Sarusan, Arcadia etc

* I like KC’s girlfriends “Gozrehen Prophecies” concept…

Indeed you can call on whichever gods you like from anywhere they'll answer (as an example, Cthulhu is a valid option for clerics and he canonically lives on Earth). The distinction is that Core 20 doesn't necessarily mean "most important gods in the universe" (unless you're Asmodeus' ego) but rather means "most important gods in this region" in which case its only natural that a Core 20 for somewhere beyond the Inner Sea doesn't include, for example, the Taldan humans who touched the Starstone.

The two continents do indeed share several deities in common, including Pharasma, Desna, and Lamashtu. Of course, a deity not appearing in the Core 20 of another continent doesn't mean they don't worship them there--just that the deity isn't as widespread. After all, even in the Inner Sea you don't find every deity equally represented in every nation. For that matter, I don't think the concept of the Core 20, by any name, is strictly diegetic.


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OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:
* I get confused when folks talk about Tian-Xia gods being part of their own Core 20. Is this a thing? Surely the gods aren’t geo-specific? I would imagine you could still call to/worship any god whether you are in Mwangi, Sarusan, Arcadia etc

The same holds true in the real world, and that doesn't stop deities from being much more prevalent in certain regions. Just because a thing exists doesn't mean everyone, everywhere is going to know of that thing, especially if there are other, closer things that perform a similar function.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

This needs to be a mega adventure path! I have been loving Godsrain!

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