Pathfinder Second Edition Remaster Project!

slamneale wrote:

Within the last month, I spent over $1000 on books to switch my group over to Pathfinder. This feels like a slap in the face.

So don't buy them.

That advice may have been helpful a month ago, before I bought books that are instantly outdated.

It wouldn't matter if not for the fact that there is going to be new content in these new books.

Within the last month, I spent over $1000 on books to switch my group over to Pathfinder. This feels like a slap in the face.

For what it's worth, it sounds like they're changing... maybe four book's worth? The changes don't go all the way to the bone, and what changes there are will be freely available online. So unless you were buying a bunch of different copies of the core rulebooks for some reason, the significant majority of that $1000 in books are going to be completely untouched, and the rest is going to be close enough that you don't really need to pick up the new stuff unless you want to.

As far as modifications to the game, it sounds like it's more of a particularly heavy round of errata - not nothing, but not something that's going to really strip the value from your earlier investments.

Ability Scores are out. Modifiers only.

slamneale wrote:

Within the last month, I spent over $1000 on books to switch my group over to Pathfinder. This feels like a slap in the face.

For what it's worth, it sounds like they're changing... maybe four book's worth? The changes don't go all the way to the bone, and what changes there are will be freely available online. So unless you were buying a bunch of different copies fo the core rulebooks for soem reason, the significant majority of that $1000 in books are going to be completely untouched, and the rest is going to be close enough that you don't really need to pick up the new stuff unless you want to.

That's a fair point. Though I actually did buy two copies of the core rulebooks, and one of my players also bought one. Plus the AVP, Gamemastery Guide, and Bestiary. But you're right that at least all of the other rulebooks, Lost Omens books, and APs I bought shouldn't really be impacted.

Within the last month, I spent over $1000 on books to switch my group over to Pathfinder. This feels like a slap in the face.

Nothing stopping you from using those books. They are completely forward and backward compatible, and even if they weren't you don't need the company's permission to use your books lol. There is literally no downside to this for existing players who already own books, its only upside for new players, so I really don't know why people are complaining about it.

Is law and chaos conflict still a thing? Concept of souls being attracted to specific planes?

(I'm feel downer on them saying they are making sure "my" story doesn't change when I like the aspect of the cosmic forces and being aligned to them. So I'm confused if they mean that you can still be aligned to forces by taking up edicts/anathema and they are just saying "no alignment" for pr or if they removed it completely)

Ability Scores are out. Modifiers only.

Boo Hiss.

(I liked "Ability Scores" looking the same as when you rolled them.)

slamneale wrote:

Within the last month, I spent over $1000 on books to switch my group over to Pathfinder. This feels like a slap in the face.

Nothing stopping you from using those books. They are completely forward and backward compatible, and even if they weren't you don't need the company's permission to use your books lol. There is literally no downside to this for existing players who already own books, its only upside for new players, so I really don't know why people are complaining about it.

I don't think I'd be complaining if I'd had the books and played the game for years, because I'd have gotten value out of the product. But for brand new players, it feels really crappy. Like I bought the "wrong version."

Just definitively answer when a player decides to use shield block and I'm good with all of this. Before damage is rolled or after the player knows the remaining damage? =)

KaiBlob1 wrote:

slamneale wrote:

Within the last month, I spent over $1000 on books to switch my group over to Pathfinder. This feels like a slap in the face.

Nothing stopping you from using those books. They are completely forward and backward compatible, and even if they weren't you don't need the company's permission to use your books lol. There is literally no downside to this for existing players who already own books, its only upside for new players, so I really don't know why people are complaining about it.

I don't think I'd be complaining if I'd had the books and played the game for years, because I'd have gotten value out of the product. But for brand new players, it feels really crappy. Like I bought the "wrong version."

If ye spent 1000 dollars, ye likely brought lot of books that shouldn't be affected by remasters in first place though?

TriOmegaZero wrote:

slamneale wrote:

Within the last month, I spent over $1000 on books to switch my group over to Pathfinder. This feels like a slap in the face.

So don't buy them.

That advice may have been helpful a month ago, before I bought books that are instantly outdated.

It wouldn't matter if not for the fact that there is going to be new content in these new books.

I understand your frustration.

For you, it will depend on a) how backwards compatible new APs, rule books etc will be. and b) how much material you already have.

I've enough 1e to keep me going for the rest of my life. And I'll be teaching people 1e because it's my Path.

I'd advise you to continue to play the 2e you have, keep an eye out for humble bundles for what you don't have, and pick and choose from Nethys what you want to buy for Pathfinder-ORC. (PORCfinder?)

Ability Scores are out. Modifiers only.

Wait, what?

TriOmegaZero wrote:

slamneale wrote:

Within the last month, I spent over $1000 on books to switch my group over to Pathfinder. This feels like a slap in the face.

So don't buy them.

That advice may have been helpful a month ago, before I bought books that are instantly outdated.

It wouldn't matter if not for the fact that there is going to be new content in these new books.

It still doesn't. Your books still work for everything you're playing now.

They can't just call it "Pathfinder Second Edition". This is an edition change from everything discussed in the live stream. It might retain backwards compatibility, but it is an edition change. It's not just errata and formatting changes.

This is entirely akin to what WotC is doing with their "backwards compatible certainly is not sixth edition" D&D thing. They just think that announcing an edition change is too damning to come out and say so.

If a company announced an edition change and I found out that 99% of it was the same I would sue them for false advertising

Is law and chaos conflict still a thing? Concept of souls being attracted to specific planes?

(I'm feel downer on them saying they are making sure "my" story doesn't change when I like the aspect of the cosmic forces and being aligned to them. So I'm confused if they mean that you can still be aligned to forces by taking up edicts/anathema and they are just saying "no alignment" for pr or if they removed it completely)

I'm sure it will be.

I don't think I'd be complaining if I'd had the books and played the game for years, because I'd have gotten value out of the product. But for brand new players, it feels really crappy. Like I bought the "wrong version."

Oh, that's fair. Buying the old thing right before a big update where waiting could have gotten you the new things instead always kind of sucks... and the timing on this one is unfortunate, what with the recent tranche of people who were all buying the old books. You have my sympathy.

At the same time, given the decisions they made, and when they were in a position to make them... I'm not sure what else they should have done.

Is law and chaos conflict still a thing? Concept of souls being attracted to specific planes?

(I'm feel downer on them saying they are making sure "my" story doesn't change when I like the aspect of the cosmic forces and being aligned to them. So I'm confused if they mean that you can still be aligned to forces by taking up edicts/anathema and they are just saying "no alignment" for pr or if they removed it completely)

It sounds like the "being aligned with cosmic forces" thing is going to be opt-in. Those that dont' care won't be affected, and those who want it can have it. Hopefully it will be possible to opt in in reasonable ways even for barbarians/rogues/fighters/etc and not just for champions/priests. We'll see, i suppose.

slamneale wrote:

I don't think I'd be complaining if I'd had the books and played the game for years, because I'd have gotten value out of the product. But for brand new players, it feels really crappy. Like I bought the "wrong version."

Oh, that's fair. Buying the old thing right before a big update where waiting could have gotten you the new things instead always kind of sucks... and the timing on this one is unfortunate, what with the recent tranche of people who were all buying the old books. You have my sympathy.

At the same time, given the decisions they made, and when they were in a position to make them... I'm not sure what else they should have done.

Personally, I feel that this is all happening because of Hasbro and their directives to WotC. So they're really the ones at fault.

My players didn't take the news too well haha! After begging my group to switch to PF2e for years, they finally did when the OGL debacle hit and now they feel like they've been bait and switched after buying a book that is being phased out and pdfs that won't be updated after already purchasing them.

Welp, time to do a full court press on switching them to Savage Worlds.

TriOmegaZero wrote:

slamneale wrote:

Within the last month, I spent over $1000 on books to switch my group over to Pathfinder. This feels like a slap in the face.

So don't buy them.

That advice may have been helpful a month ago, before I bought books that are instantly outdated.

It wouldn't matter if not for the fact that there is going to be new content in these new books.

TriOmegaZero is meaning don't buy the new books. The core rulebooks that you already have will work just fine.

Sanityfaerie wrote:

slamneale wrote:

I don't think I'd be complaining if I'd had the books and played the game for years, because I'd have gotten value out of the product. But for brand new players, it feels really crappy. Like I bought the "wrong version."

Oh, that's fair. Buying the old thing right before a big update where waiting could have gotten you the new things instead always kind of sucks... and the timing on this one is unfortunate, what with the recent tranche of people who were all buying the old books. You have my sympathy.

At the same time, given the decisions they made, and when they were in a position to make them... I'm not sure what else they should have done.

Personally, I feel that this is all happening because of Hasbro and their directives to WotC. So they're really the ones at fault.

They've all but said these new books exist because of the attempted OGL shenanigans.

Personally, I feel that this is all happening because of Hasbro and their directives to WotC. So they're really the ones at fault.

Nothing from that area is making Paizo make a new edition of the game. They've just CHOSEN to do that. They could -- should -- have taken the slow path of "de-OGLing". And de-OGLing doesn't require major rules changes and rebalances to things. This is 100% Paizo's poorly-timed choice.

I think I'm going through the five stages of grief in random order but not yet at acceptance. Mostly just confused about how setting is going to change without alignment because they were how soul metaphysics worked and how "outsiders" worked. I'm just glad I've skipped the anger part... Though I guess I could be angry at WotC for making this happen? But I don't really want to be angry, so I'll guess I'll still skip that step

KaiBlob1 wrote:

slamneale wrote:

Within the last month, I spent over $1000 on books to switch my group over to Pathfinder. This feels like a slap in the face.

Nothing stopping you from using those books. They are completely forward and backward compatible, and even if they weren't you don't need the company's permission to use your books lol. There is literally no downside to this for existing players who already own books, its only upside for new players, so I really don't know why people are complaining about it.

I don't think I'd be complaining if I'd had the books and played the game for years, because I'd have gotten value out of the product. But for brand new players, it feels really crappy. Like I bought the "wrong version."

Understandable, but there's always going to be someone who bought something the day before the new one is announced. They can't prevent that.

But this is sounding... pretty different.

A lot of people seeing this announcement as an opportunity to pronounce the sky is falling because of the small tweaks announced.

Paizo isn't going to come to your house and slap alignment out of your setting. If you love alignment you can keep it. Since edicts and anathemas already exist in the game you can have both.

Do you love vestigial ability scores that have almost no impact at all during gameplay except to confuse new players?
Congratulations you can keep them. Nobody is coming to your table to burn your old character sheets.

In fact players at the same table who love alignment and ability scores can keep their vestigial OGL rules on their sheets alongside players who don't use them and pretty much nothing at the table changes.

For what it's worth... I and my family bought Core Rulebook, Gamemastery Guide and Bestiary back in those frenzied two weeks in late winter. I probably *won't* be buying these new books if I don't have to (I'll get what I need off of Archives of Nethys). I'm not feeling too torn up about it, though. It is what it is.

Do you love vestigial ability scores that have almost no impact at all during gameplay except to confuse new players?
.

I love this condescending, gaslighting attitude towards people as if racial stat bonuses was just some houserule we all just agreed to make up on the spot, rather than having been part of the playtest in 2018 and widely accepted and agreed upon by everyone at the time.

Anyways, email sent and confirmed. Tales of the Valiant, here I come.

I think the important thing to understand is that partly this is Paizo doing a thing because they have to (they want to avoid ending up in court over anything that touches the OGL) and they're taking the opportunity to revise the things that they honestly would like to (the variant rules in the GMG are a good window on this).

I think it's important that all the major changes are either errata (the alchemist in my printing of the CRB is different than the current alchemist already), and things that are basically easy to convert back and forth with the current rules (it's easy to convert "+4" to "18" and to write "NG" somewhere).

Hey, I didn't keep defending alignment on boards for my whole pathfinder playing "career" because I didn't care about it xD

Like don't get me wrong, I get it its not "big thing". I considered it kind of inevitable a thing that is going to happen in 3e, just like I consider it depressingly inevitable that everyone is getting rid of ancestry flaws(I like my xenofiction). My brain is taking it too hard and I'm trapped in my meat body observing that I'm not acting rational. Let me be sad about it for now, its not like I'm going to quit one of my favorite trpgs over it.

(I'll probably get over it after I go to sleep, its midnight here and I'm prone to being stuck in sad mood when I'm sleep deprived :P)

I think I'm going through the five stages of grief in random order but not yet at acceptance. Mostly just confused about how setting is going to change without alignment because they were how soul metaphysics worked and how "outsiders" worked. I'm just glad I've skipped the anger part... Though I guess I could be angry at WotC for making this happen? But I don't really want to be angry, so I'll guess I'll still skip that step

A Devil is not any different today than it was yesterday. It's still Pathfinder, and it's still Golarion's cosmology.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Do you love vestigial ability scores that have almost no impact at all during gameplay except to confuse new players?

I love this condescending, gaslighting attitude towards people as if racial stat bonuses was just some houserule we all just agreed to make this up on the spot, rather than having been part of the playtest in 2018 and widely accepted.

I... don't think he's talking about racial stat bonuses? I think he's mostly talking about calling it "16" rather than "+3".

though that does lead me to wonder about what happens when you're applying bonuses to statmods of +4 and above. Do they become +4.5?

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Do you love vestigial ability scores that have almost no impact at all during gameplay except to confuse new players?
.

I love this condescending, gaslighting attitude towards people as if racial stat bonuses was just some houserule we all just agreed to make up on the spot, rather than having been part of the playtest in 2018 and widely accepted and agreed upon by everyone at the time.

Nobody is gaslighting you. Please stop misusing a very real abuse term to describe people disagreeing with you about tabletop roleplaying games.

Can you tell me what you'll miss about those scores, exactly? How the experience of play at your table changes without them?

Is law and chaos conflict still a thing? Concept of souls being attracted to specific planes?

(I'm feel downer on them saying they are making sure "my" story doesn't change when I like the aspect of the cosmic forces and being aligned to them. So I'm confused if they mean that you can still be aligned to forces by taking up edicts/anathema and they are just saying "no alignment" for pr or if they removed it completely)

A ton of people were asking about this in the stream’s chat and I still don’t know the answer after watching the whole stream. Except for “stay tuned for paizocon” essentially…

The newly formatted books consolidate key information in a unified place—for example, Pathfinder Player Core will collect all the important rules for each of its featured classes in one volume rather than spreading out key information between the Core Rulebook and the Advanced Player’s Guide.

What is the difference between a Core Rulebook and APG and two Player Core books released 8-ish months apart? I can't decide if I'm missing something obvious or if this is some WOTC-level doubletalk.

Alignment is an essential part of Pathfinder, which isn't so easily ignored. This game also is also a much bigger focus on alignment than others, which makes it more interesting. If people don't want to go to the trouble of understanding it, that's on them, but it actually ADDS to the game.

CorvusMask wrote:

Is law and chaos conflict still a thing? Concept of souls being attracted to specific planes?

(I'm feel downer on them saying they are making sure "my" story doesn't change when I like the aspect of the cosmic forces and being aligned to them. So I'm confused if they mean that you can still be aligned to forces by taking up edicts/anathema and they are just saying "no alignment" for pr or if they removed it completely)

A ton of people were asking about this in the stream’s chat and I still don’t know the answer after watching the whole stream. Except for “stay tuned for paizocon” essentially…

I kiiiiinda got feeling they were expecting reaction to be mostly "Yaaaaay no alignment" with few people being grumpy about it, so they didn't feel like they had to prepare explanation for all details about it yet ^^;

(to be fair, that IS mostly the reaction)

Yippee no alignment! Yippeee!

Alignment is an essential part of Pathfinder, which isn't so easily ignored. This game also is also a much bigger focus on alignment than others, which makes it more interesting. If people don't want to go to the trouble of understanding it, that's on them, but it actually ADDS to the game.

I'm sure that's why the people who make Pathfinder are removing it :p

Yippee no alignment! Yippeee!

Don't be mean with jokes, it hurts me right now :(

Also yippee Alchemist/Oracle/Witch revisions! Yippee!

(please give flame and tempest oracles spells they can use with their mystery without being forced to feat into it)

Mica Merryvale wrote:

Alignment is an essential part of Pathfinder, which isn't so easily ignored. This game also is also a much bigger focus on alignment than others, which makes it more interesting. If people don't want to go to the trouble of understanding it, that's on them, but it actually ADDS to the game.

I'm sure that's why the people who make Pathfinder are removing it :p

Are you familiar with the setting?

Mica Merryvale wrote:

Alignment is an essential part of Pathfinder, which isn't so easily ignored. This game also is also a much bigger focus on alignment than others, which makes it more interesting. If people don't want to go to the trouble of understanding it, that's on them, but it actually ADDS to the game.

I'm sure that's why the people who make Pathfinder are removing it :p

Yeah Im sure it isn't because of certain company who thinks own the concept

Twiggies wrote:

Yippee no alignment! Yippeee!

Don't be mean with jokes, it hurts me right now :(

Sorry I didn't mean to be mean! I hadn't scrolled to the back of the threads, I was just posting my feelings when I saw that line on the main post.

Quote:

The newly formatted books consolidate key information in a unified place—for example, Pathfinder Player Core will collect all the important rules for each of its featured classes in one volume rather than spreading out key information between the Core Rulebook and the Advanced Player’s Guide.

What is the difference between a Core Rulebook and APG and two Player Core books released 8-ish months apart? I can't decide if I'm missing something obvious or if this is some WOTC-level doubletalk.

The difference is that instead of a 12/4 class split with the latter book having options for the previous 12, it well now be an 8/8 split with all the options for the class in it's book

though that does lead me to wonder about what happens when you're applying bonuses to statmods of +4 and above. Do they become +4.5?

That was my understanding from the livestream. The wording was something along the lines of, 'You still have to spend two boosts to get an ability modifier higher than +4.'

keftiu wrote:

Mica Merryvale wrote:

Alignment is an essential part of Pathfinder, which isn't so easily ignored. This game also is also a much bigger focus on alignment than others, which makes it more interesting. If people don't want to go to the trouble of understanding it, that's on them, but it actually ADDS to the game.

I'm sure that's why the people who make Pathfinder are removing it :p

Are you familiar with the setting?

This is my 6,000th post on these forums, most of them on the lore boards. I'd like to call myself a fan of the setting.

Are you? :>

I'm happy to see an update integrating the errata, as these had become really long lists. Splitting the books will not please everyone, but the physical weight of the CRB definitely made it uncomfortable to read, so I score that as a positive.

Removing alignment... well... that's pretty surprising. I wouldn't have been shocked if the design team did that in the original PF2. But after 4 years, it feels a bit late for such a momentous change. I look forward to hearing (or preferably, reading) the explanation.

Sanityfaerie wrote:

though that does lead me to wonder about what happens when you're applying bonuses to statmods of +4 and above. Do they become +4.5?

That was my understanding from the livestream. The wording was something along the lines of, 'You still have to spend two boosts to get an ability modifier higher than +4.'

I guess maybe you just track the boost by itself and when it has two it goes up?

Mica Merryvale wrote:

keftiu wrote:

Mica Merryvale wrote:

Alignment is an essential part of Pathfinder, which isn't so easily ignored. This game also is also a much bigger focus on alignment than others, which makes it more interesting. If people don't want to go to the trouble of understanding it, that's on them, but it actually ADDS to the game.

I'm sure that's why the people who make Pathfinder are removing it :p

Are you familiar with the setting?

This is my 6,000th post on these forums, most of them on the lore boards. I'd like to call myself a fan of the setting.

Are you? :>

Indeed. Then you'd know how at the moment it is a huge part of the setting. Removing it means there would be a lot of changes, which don't sound fun with nothing to replace it. You sound very offended, though I did not mean to evoke such a reaction. Let's not get off on the wrong foot.

Are you familiar with the setting?

So much so that the people who make Pathfinder sometimes defer to their knowledge of the setting.

And why do you think that the people who make Pathfinder are not familiar with the setting?