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Organized Play Member. 13 posts. 3 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 14 Organized Play characters.


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Radiant Oath

Mike Kimmel wrote:
Xemaniis wrote:
I'm surprised that social skills have been largely left out of the Leadership Styles so far.

For what it's worth, this is intentional. One reason is that, regardless of leadership style, we want any given envoy to be able to use the three main social skills as needed. The social skills seem like the most "obvious" leadership style options, and we want envoys to have a broader repertoire, rather than a narrow niche (both in terms of skills and round-by-round action flexibility).

That said, feedback like this helps us figure out how our ideas are working for the broader community, so it's much appreciated. This is what playtesting is for! We've already made some adjustments to the envoy for the Playtest Rulebook, which you can learn more about it just a few months. :) So, it doesn't quite look the same as the Field Test envoy any more, and it's likely it'll change even further as a result of the playtest. What might change? Can't rightly say. But your comments are definitely the kinds of things that we're thinking about, and we're excited to see the envoy (and all the other classes) in action!

Bit of a late response, but I appreciate the idea of envoy being able to round out on the leadership styles, it does make them feel a little more specialized while still being rounded out on social skills, and the additional skill increases do help to facilitate this further.

That said, I'm glad to hear a response, and to know that you guys are hard at work! So far it looks like you guys are shaping up a proper sequel. Make sure to include a bunch of new slang in the playtest, I'd love to incorporate it into my roleplay. I've already started to when playing in field test games.

Radiant Oath

As an addendum, I realized I somehow overlooked Wise to the Game (Great name). It's a good touch and helps to solve the issue I mentioned with seeing through lies. The +2 from the target being your asset is especially nice since you can't simply train up sense motive, and adds incentive to study the people you're dealing with ahead of time. I would still say having expert perception would be nice, so envoys would really be better at it, rather than on par with other classes who have expert proficiency in perception, as they are more "wise to the game" so to speak.

Being that most people will want to shoot and be able to take advantage of their Recall Knowledge skills, Size Up is a big help.

Having a +1 to your mental stats, assuming you go all in on Charisma and Dex, makes this a bit rough, but that seems to be where the faster skill progression comes in, so it helps to balance it out, with a +1 to recall knowledge checks and your ability to become an expert effectively giving you the full bonus someone going all in on that mental stat would have, incentivizing you to learn as much about your target as possible beforehand, while rewarding that effort.

One big problem I noticed, incredible initiative doesn't stack with Saw It Coming. Maybe that's intentional due to its other effect, but it's something worth looking into, if Envoy is to remain at Trained in perception.

Really looking forward to seeing how this plays out in the long run and what gets added/adjusted.

Radiant Oath

At a glance: There's a lot I love about Envoy, which is great, since I loved it in 1e as well. Having a big focus on skills while being able to buff your team, debuff enemies, and still put out a few rounds downrange is great. They get good saves, which is always good when your main focus will be charisma and dexterity 90% of the time, maybe a point or two of wisdom. More perception would help change the battlefield in your favor before teammates take their turn, but more importantly, I never saw an Envoy in 1e who could use Sense Motive past the first couple levels, while it is easier in 2e, I feel it's the kind of thing Envoys should be especially reliable at.

Size Up and Saw It Coming help with this, but the majority of fights in my experience aren't going to involve already having a target to Size up. In other words, a bit more perception would be nice, but the class is so far doing pretty good.

Further in: Directives are great, they're like 1e's improvisations, but Lead By Example makes them even more interesting. As I've always been the party face, I enjoy being able to "Lead By Example," inspiring allies to greater heights, such as telling them to "Get In There!" while I move up, take a shot, and still have the ability to benefit the team afterward using my reactions, such as with Quip, or Watch Out!

Envoy very much appeals as a leadership-focused class, and this is coming from someone who personally views charisma as mandatory, as I love diplomacy, I love making quips, and I love roleplaying it all out. Which leads me to one of the big issues I see here:

Leadership Styles. In theory, pretty cool. I like the idea of envoys getting a bonus feat and a skill from it. although waiting until level 6 to unlock your Acts of Leadership is a bit much. Given that the class was built with action economy in mind, having this at say, level 3, would make a lot more sense. Some of these leadership styles are going to get a lot more use than others. Some are easy to proc, like From the Shadows, while others like Through Desperate Times, will be harder, but you tend to get more benefit for these actions on top of getting your Follow By Example. I think in that regard, these seem balanced. Hotshot seems a bit situational, like the type of thing you take for an adventure, or vehicle-focused adventure path. If you were some kind of motorcycle-cavalier, this would be pretty awesome though.

But as someone who focuses primarily on diplomacy, I see a distinct lack of options. For my first Envoy, I had an idea which would go well with the In The Spotlight leadership style, only I effectively get nothing for it. If Impressive Performance entirely replaced diplomacy, (unlikely) I could see how this might be useful, assuming I could use still use feats like Bon Mot using performance, or if they added performance feats that were useful. However, as it stands, I don't see what "perform" actions I could feasibly take in combat to trigger Acts of Leadership, though the "Issue Another Directive" is a good trigger for this one. The main draw to this style is granted at level 6, which is far too long to gain useful things, especially as other styles grant you something at level 1. So as it stands, I have no reason to get In the Spotlight, despite that it is most fitting for my backstory.

We are lacking in Leadership Styles which focus on diplomacy and intimidate, though with feats like Quip and the ability to get a bonus to intimidate from Size Up, especially with Acquire Asset, I'm already pretty well equipped for quips. Still, being rewarded for my main playstyle in combat would make the Leadership Styles feel more rewarding. I'm surprised that social skills have been largely left out of the Leadership Styles so far. But my movie star can go Guns Blazing, I suppose, since muzzle flash is kind of like a spotlight, and acrobatics can translate well to her doing her own stunts I suppose.

Overall, I'm loving what I see so far, except Leadership Styles, which are still a very cool idea that simply need work. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing all the cool new feats and how much I can do with reactions in the full release. Quip is just the kind of thing I'd always wanted, and I absolutely adore the names for Starfinder 2e feats and class features. And I'm a fan of adding to the slang of the Starfinder universe. Not the focus of the playtest, but definitely a bonus. Keep up the hard work, guys :)

Radiant Oath

Glystia wrote:
Aw why wasn't Anevia mentioned? I like her.

Arueshalae profile picture and an Anevia appreciator? Immaculate taste.

Radiant Oath

This one was a lot of fun to play! I love the students. My bard is certainly looking forward to meeting Dura again.

Radiant Oath

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Dokacity wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
Oh, and as a cosmology concept, alignment is still mostly present - though again perhaps not with the same names. The various factions still exist and still war against each other.

I'm curious to see what new terms they'll use to describe the planes. Sure, you can say Hell embodies 'tyranny', but that feels a bit more narrow in scope than anything and everything lawful evil.

Applying cosmic morality to characters has always been a bit strange even if it does decide where your soul will end up. I think that personal edicts and anathema are more intuitive for most mortals.

Each alignment is very broad, true. And yet most people who share an alignment fall under a similar ideological umbrella, which helps to describe them in a concise way. Your experiences and actions pull you toward a particular way of thinking which often aligns with the planes, which are built on these beliefs, broad as they are.

Yes, each one is a whole plane of existence with many different beings, and despite being categorically similar in many ways, edicts and anathema alone are an impotent way to describe each plane, but for an individual being, mortal or deity, it works well. Each act affects the soul in a way that shifts you ideologically toward one of these. Even apathy lands you somewhere.

Radiant Oath

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Viviolay wrote:
Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:

So just to check because I'm now confused of what people are talking bout. From what I understood, they are basically doing erratad changed version of classes and core options, but its not like they are changing rules or skill math or monster math?

So like post remaster and pre remaster versions are still working on same rules and same math and this is more of glorified errata with more changes than normal errata?

I want to be clear: This is exactly what I understand is happening. I can forgive people for being apprehensive and alarmed because "Nothing is actually changing" was the story that One D&D started with, too, right before ripping open the OGL debacle that provoked this change. I can see why people might reflexively flinch.

That said, for all intents and purposes it appears that most of these changes are either errata that was coming in a few months anyway, or changes that are made specifically as a ripple effect of the OGL debacle previously mentioned. Alignment seems to be the biggest single change and it suits that the reason for the alignment change is partly rooted in both those reasons.

I think, at least for me, I really want to feel like it's all going to be fine. I want to not be worried and to trust paizo.

But I feel like not enough information was given to make it clear how lawful/chaos and lore would be handled. Saying "not much will change" isn't clear. Hearing other not-employed-by-paizo people saying that also doesn't help.

Clear answers to questions people kept asking over and over would be better and would go farther to allowing people to chill out.

Till then, can you blame people for being anxious?

I agree that hearing "It will be okay" from random people does little to alleviate the ambiguity, but right now the best thing to do is wait for Paizo's announcement. It's a concern that will be addressed at a later time. Trying to pry a definite answer from those who merely hope their words are correct is futile.

Radiant Oath

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Just as an open statement, let us not feed those who thrive on toxicity.

Radiant Oath

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keftiu wrote:
Mica Merryvale wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Mica Merryvale wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Mica Merryvale wrote:
Alignment is an essential part of Pathfinder, which isn't so easily ignored. This game also is also a much bigger focus on alignment than others, which makes it more interesting. If people don't want to go to the trouble of understanding it, that's on them, but it actually ADDS to the game.
I'm sure that's why the people who make Pathfinder are removing it :p
Are you familiar with the setting?

This is my 6,000th post on these forums, most of them on the lore boards. I'd like to call myself a fan of the setting.

Are you? :>

Indeed. Then you'd know how at the moment it is a huge part of the setting. Removing it means there would be a lot of changes, which don't sound fun with nothing to replace it. You sound very offended, though I did not mean to evoke such a reaction. Let's not get off on the wrong foot.

The devs have spoken today, here and on the stream, about how the setting is not changing. A Devil is still a Devil if I smite it with "Holy" damage instead of "Good-aligned." The Firebrands don't stop being chaotic little rebels even if them being proper-C Chaotic doesn't matter so much mechanically anymore.

I don't think the alarmism is helpful, nor is claiming that the people making the game don't know what they're doing.

Calm down, I never said that. Do not equate voicing concerns with alarmism. That being said, my initial post was regarding how alignment was represented in the lore. My curiosity comes from the idea that removing alignment - which is currently directly tied to the lore - is a 'minor change' and how they're going to pull it off. I am glad that, as you say, the setting is not changing. Given your standing in the community I have reason to trust you, so I will respect your word on the matter.

Radiant Oath

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keftiu wrote:
Mica Merryvale wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Mica Merryvale wrote:
Alignment is an essential part of Pathfinder, which isn't so easily ignored. This game also is also a much bigger focus on alignment than others, which makes it more interesting. If people don't want to go to the trouble of understanding it, that's on them, but it actually ADDS to the game.
I'm sure that's why the people who make Pathfinder are removing it :p
Are you familiar with the setting?

This is my 6,000th post on these forums, most of them on the lore boards. I'd like to call myself a fan of the setting.

Are you? :>

Indeed. Then you'd know how at the moment it is a huge part of the setting. Removing it means there would be a lot of changes, which don't sound fun with nothing to replace it. You sound very offended, though I did not mean to evoke such a reaction. Let's not get off on the wrong foot.

Radiant Oath

2 people marked this as a favorite.
keftiu wrote:
Mica Merryvale wrote:
Alignment is an essential part of Pathfinder, which isn't so easily ignored. This game also is also a much bigger focus on alignment than others, which makes it more interesting. If people don't want to go to the trouble of understanding it, that's on them, but it actually ADDS to the game.
I'm sure that's why the people who make Pathfinder are removing it :p

Are you familiar with the setting?

Radiant Oath

10 people marked this as a favorite.

Alignment is an essential part of Pathfinder, which isn't so easily ignored. This game also is also a much bigger focus on alignment than others, which makes it more interesting. If people don't want to go to the trouble of understanding it, that's on them, but it actually ADDS to the game.

Radiant Oath

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Very excited! I'm hoping they stick closer to the lore than Owlcat, and perhaps even make their own thing rather than a video game adaptation of an existing AP. Now, if it were more polished than Owlcat's games, done in 2e, and had a good story, it'd be perfect. I am hopeful! We'll see where this leads.