Pathfinder Second Edition Remaster Project!

I'm throwing one more hat in the ring of the "monster core" name sucking

I don't want a monster manual
I want a Bestiary. A Creature Tome. An Entity Opus.

"monster core" is blah

Really hope that this new set of changes bring a n opportunity to update some class rules, particularly witches and champions.

Erik Mona wrote:

I can say with authority that we will not be adding any weird dice to the Pathfinder Core Rules as part of the Remaster Project.

Puts away his d13s and d∞

... fine...

The math teacher has to point out that the d-infinity is also a D1, and therefore, better used as a dog toy. (It's a ball)

SebsVesk wrote:

I can't agree harder, the PF2e sheet is so ugly I go out of my way to use alternatives made by other people.

It’s why I’ve only used pathbuilder.

Pathbuilder is even uglier than the original sheet.

SebsVesk wrote:

bugleyman wrote:

Phaye wrote:

I can't make the live streams! Some one ask about a character sheet redesign for me!!!

OMG YES! An RPG character sheet should never resemble a Scantron form...

I can't agree harder, the PF2e sheet is so ugly I go out of my way to use alternatives made by other people.

It’s why I’ve only used pathbuilder.

I actually rather liked the character sheet from the playtest myself. But in the end I'm a big fan of using Pathbuilder and cutting down on my paper usage. (and saving me from having to erase and re-write about 2/3rds of my sheet every time I level)

Bigger question: how will this impact the announcements of new releases of the rulebooks for 2024+?

We currently have no plans to remaster the non-core books in the Pathfinder Second Edition line. These remasters are a TON of work, and we, like you, are excited to take the game in new, unexplored directions. I don't think it'd come as a surprise to anyone to discover that these books weren't on our product schedule as of December 2022. We were already well into the process of making a ton of new books before these four titles disrupted our plans. So we're committed to releasing those new books, and not just delayed by a year. We'll make further announcements about non-remaster hardcover Pathfinder Second Edition rulebooks soon. Like, maybe in a few weeks at a Paizo-focused convention, or something? ;-)

Really hope that this new set of changes bring a n opportunity to update some class rules, particularly witches and champions.

If you peep the store page for PC1 and PC2 - Witches, Champions, Oracle, and Alchemist are getting "unchained" as part of this.

Really curious about the scope of this product. Removing alignment is obviously a big deal but it's hard to tell from the rest of the post what the other changes might look like.

Presumably from the emphasis on small means we shouldn't expect anything too dramatic, but there's still a lot of room for interpretation there. It could be mostly formatting and copy-editing changes or it could include somewhat meaningful mechanical changes like the last errata's alchemist updates.

I think alignment still served a purpose as a good guide for role play and could be used for story

IMO, the only time it was mildly useful was for planar beings that embodied alignments themselves and settlements/countries to show an overall view of a group of people. For any PC/NPC with even vaguely interesting backstory and background, a simple 9 point, 2-d representation/guide does more to take away from its personality, motivations and attitudes in play than it adds. Far too often the simple alignment would lead to a different outcome than what the actual character would pick taking its actual complex and multifaceted personality into account.

Again I am going to hold off on celebrations in either direction until I see what - if any - replacement or rework is done for alignment and alignment damage.

IMO, it'd be a HUGE bait and switch if it's simply replaced with a 'new' system as they said "removal of alignment" when they could say 'replace alignment with a new system' if that was what they are doing. I'm going to be pissed if they just change some names and we end up with a near identical system in place. :(

You'll never get alignment out of any game using dice. Dice will always be chaotic neutral.

For people wondering about significant class reworks, the description of Player Core 1 says this:

including revisions to the witch

and Player Core 2 says this:

including a revised alchemist, champion, and oracle!

So the two biggest suspects are getting major revisions, plus champion (probably because of alignment) and - the only one that surprises me - Oracle, which I thought was a phenomenal class already.

You have celebrations and questions? Join Jason Bulmahn, our Director of Game Design, on Twitch today at 1 PM Pacific. Then Erik Mona, our Publisher and Chief Creative Officer will be interviewed on Roll for Combat’s YouTube channel at 2 PM Pacific: https://www.youtube.com/@RollForCombat.

Edit: These cover are not final. Stay tuned!

When I went to the link it just brought me to the Paizo storefront? Am I having a Gross Conceptual Error?

For people wondering about significant class reworks, the description of Player Core 1 says this:

Player Core 1 wrote:

including revisions to the witch

and Player Core 2 says this:

Player Core 2 wrote:

including a revised alchemist, champion, and oracle!

So the two biggest suspects are getting major revisions, plus champion (probably because of alignment) and - the only one that surprises me - Oracle, which I thought was a phenomenal class already.

The ancestor oracle can be rough to play if the dice are unfriendly. It's engine frequently experiences the equivalent of vapor-lock.

Oh. Good catch, excited to see what tweaks they juice on to Oracle.

Also yeah, while I totally get liking alignment, it ultimately makes things more annoying for a lot of rules than provides benefits. At least nobody's ever gonna be like "alignment is the most important thing and if it's gone so am I!"

I, for one, welcome the concept of not being figuratively beaten over the head by bad actors claiming the '(L)awful Good Best Good' high ground.

This usually followed by something along the lines of 'the police are the best lawful good fite me'.

Yeah, Oracle getting some tweaks I can see - I think it's functional but awkward currently. Though honestly most of what I'd want to do is add more mysteries and more domains to each mystery, personally.

I, for one, welcome the concept of not being figuratively beaten over the head by bad actors claiming the '(L)awful Good Best Good' high ground.

This usually followed by something along the lines of 'the police are the best lawful good fite me'.

This made me laugh. Also, as someone who played multiple paladins back in the OG days of (A)D&D2, I don't think doing this kind of thing ever entered my mind. Like there're soft power approaches to exercising lawful good tenets.

"Not yet" on Starfinder feels more ominous than it probably should...

My prediction is an eventual GURPS-esque system that includes the Pathfinder and Starfinder settings, plus others.

I, for one, welcome the concept of not being figuratively beaten over the head by bad actors claiming the '(L)awful Good Best Good' high ground.

Yup.

Also, no one holds grudges like a LG.

Interesting to see Society limitations with alignment disappearing.

This is definitely what I want to know. Will I finally get to make a Cleric of Lamashtu devoted to celebrating the ugly and outcast? Pleasy pleasy?

No one holds grudges like a LG.

You don't need to be LG for that. Just being back country folk will do. :P

Are things like divine lance which deals alignment damage also going away then?

This is also one of my concerns. I would prefer to have a "smite-enemy-of-the-faith" spell in its stead, and define "enemy of the faith" as whomever I choose.

NO MORE ALIGNMENT!

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Strong disagree. My suspicion is that removing forces such as archetypal & objective good & evil will water down the game.

breithauptclan wrote:

No one holds grudges like a LG.

You don't need to be LG for that. Just being back country folk will do. :P

Yeah, anyone can.

But chaotic will forget their grudge, neutral won't care enough, and evil will get revenge asap.

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

I, for one, welcome the concept of not being figuratively beaten over the head by bad actors claiming the '(L)awful Good Best Good' high ground.

This usually followed by something along the lines of 'the police are the best lawful good fite me'.

This made me laugh. Also, as someone who played multiple paladins back in the OG days of (A)D&D2, I don't think doing this kind of thing ever entered my mind. Like there're soft power approaches to exercising lawful good tenets.

LOL Over the years I've met a LOT of paladins that were Awful Good and/or Lawful Stupid. ;)

Red Griffyn wrote:

Will this fix any of the things the community has vocally asked for (in the most nice, non offensive, way possible), in some percentage of popularity ranging from 1 member to 100% of all PF2e players across multiple forms/threads, across all time since the inception of PF2e, I personally really want including, but not limited to:

- Rogues with Martial Weapon Proficiency
- Alchemist Master in bombs/KAS of STR, DEX, or INT.
- Shield runes (e.g., durable?)
- New look at signet ring vs. spell attack roll runes
- Swap of warpriest to bounded caster magus style weapon/spell casting progression base chassis.
- Neutral Champions with no alignment?
- Making Free Archetype the base rule not the variant rule
- Making Automatic Bonus Progression the base rule not the variant rule.

FTFY

FTFY

People are getting uppity lol. I didn't say the 'majority' or that doing all these things is a good idea, or that of course I don't want some of these things. But there are hundreds of threads littering Paizo/Reddit forums asking 'what do you want'. These are some of the many common elements that are reoccurring. I personally want about half of these things, but I've seen the other half and many more.

I'm sorry I didn't wrap my quick response in so many caveats so as to say nothing at all.

What I want to know is whether this will actually resolve any things the community asks for (could be the above or other things) or is this just a way to release the core rule books under ORC and strip out OGL stuff that isn't licenceable under ORC. If that is the only reason here with some 'minor cosmetic changes' then Paizo should have just done it and not made a whole announcement about it. I don't need to re-buy a book I basically have because they need to publish under ORC. A re-order of content to make it easy for new players is a cool ribbon feature but will be largely useless for most experience PF2e players. So what are the actual changes to the game?

People are doing a lot of speculation and guesswork right now and jumping to conclusions without a lot of information. I am very interested in seeing what we can actually learn from the upcoming streams.

And yet completely going against what I just said, Revisions to the Witch is some of the best news I've heard all year! With the removal of alignment, I'm very interested in seeing what happens to things like Aasimar, Tiefling, and Ganzi. Please don't take away my Ganzi. I love them so, so much.

Oh. Good catch, excited to see what tweaks they juice on to Oracle.

Also yeah, while I totally get liking alignment, it ultimately makes things more annoying for a lot of rules than provides benefits. At least nobody's ever gonna be like "alignment is the most important thing and if it's gone so am I!"

Didn't Leon do that partially in last page?

Anyway, I'm also kinda sad that if I want to keep using alignment, does that mean I have to start deducing in my head from context clues alignments of every npc and new deity in future?

Paizo making some enemies neutral when they acted evil has sometimes been an issue.

Me: "I cast Divine Lance."
GM: "You hit."
Me: "It deals good damage."
GM: "It doesn't appear to have an effect."
Me: "Are you @&#%ing kidding me Paizo!"

Lebombjames wrote:

"Removal" of alignment seems a bit stark. I would've hoped for some alternative, possibly based on the alternate alignment rules from the GMG. Otherwise intrigued by this

Like legally there's probably an argument for this which is why they're doing it, and it'll be good to avoid alignment arguments and things like "certain spells are useless for clerics of Neutral Gods because they do alignment damage." But it's still useful to read "LE" or "NG" in an NPC's stat bloc just as a very broad description of how to play them.

Agree 100% that alignment is a necessary trait in many instances, more useful to the GM than players; but some players find it helpful to guide the actions of their PCs, mainly for background purposes. Always good to check an NPC alignment quickly rather than reading 2 paragraphs of their background.

A post by Mona shows alignment will still be a key aspect of the game, just not the confusing 9-system. Experienced and common sense players, in my experience, have used alignment somewhat ambiguously anyway, which works out well. I bet that's where PF is headed, not so rules-heavy and mechanically ingrained.

Fantastic idea to merge all the classes into one book. This should be very helpful for new people. Too bad a cheaper pdf version isn't available for those who have already purchased the previous books....a loyalty discount would be nice for them.

Splitting the GM and Player Book is a good move that will help new players.

The Twitch stream is currently live.

Yay. One fewer meaning of 'level'. Spell level term is being replaced.

stream is live for those who want more answers

https://www.twitch.tv/officialpaizo

I'm also kinda sad that if I want to keep using alignment, does that mean I have to start deducing in my head from context clues alignments of every npc and new deity in future?

Just guessing here (like everyone else), but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a simple switch between 'alignment is core and no alighment is alternative rule' and 'no alighnment is core and alignment is alternative rule'.

And nothing will stop you from putting your alignment on your character sheet and role-playing your alignment at the table.

What will happen with the current/legacy books on the shop? Will I be able to buy the old PDFs in the future? I just got recently into PF2e, literally just printed the rulebooks in the last 2 weeks, I don't want to throw that away and have to buy new releases, just to get e.g. Advanced Players Guide.

What will happen with the current/legacy books on the shop? Will I be able to buy the old PDFs in the future? I just got recently into PF2e, literally just printed the rulebooks in the last 2 weeks, I don't want to throw that away and have to buy new releases, just to get e.g. Advanced Players Guide.

From the blog post above

In time, the Pathfinder Player Core, Pathfinder GM Core, Pathfinder Monster Core, and Pathfinder Player Core 2 will replace the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, Gamemastery Guide, Bestiary, and Advanced Player’s Guide, which Paizo will not reprint once their current print runs expire.

Existing Pathfinder players should be assured that the core rules system remains the same, and the overwhelming majority of the rules themselves will not change. Your existing books are still valid.

Can't say I'm particularly keen on losing alignment, imo it really added a lot of flavor to the game. Like it was clear that was is Good/Evil/Lawful/Chaotic are largely determined by the (very biased) gods and what they individually approved or disapproved of. Pharasma probably being the best example, not only is she the ultimate judge of everyone and everything, she also has very clear biases. Like how she presents herself as True Neutral (To better fulfill the unbiased judge role), yet she herself has an obvious bend towards Lawful Neutral and even keeps her domain in Axis. Then there's everything involving the undead. While undead does lean towards evil imo, Pharasma also has a clear personal grudge against all undead and Urgathoa in particular and I'd argue it clouds her judgement of undeath in-general. Though she's far from the only example. There's Videlis and Ragathiel's merciless zealotry that puts them at odds with a lot of other Good deities, Sarenrae's overlooking of slavery undermines her position as the goddess of mercy and compassion, Findelhara refuses to acknowledge the art or worship of non-elves.

And just, I dunno, it feels like everyone approaches character alignment in a different way than me? Like people see it as a hard-set category your character falls into and they can never deviate from ever. And yeah, if that's how you see alignment I can get why you think it's stupid but is it really supposed to be like that? But as my last paragraph shows, even the gods who set the rules are clearly very inconsistent with acting "as" their alignment. Isn't that proof enough that alignment isn't supposed to be a hard-wired programming for a character they cannot deviate from?

Imo alignment is more an expression of the character's typical worldviews and aspirations, and they can deviate it based on the circumstances without it necessarily affecting their alignment. Like a Good character raised in a bigoted community might unconsciously act on those bigoted notions without it suddenly invalidating their good alignment, or an Evil character might be genuinely altruistic towards the poor and needy without it magically absolving them of their evil alignment. Like alignment should ideally be a tool for storytelling, a way to better showcase the multifaceted nature of people. What alignment a character presents as, and how it lines up with or contrasts their behavior and ideals has so much juicy potential. I've run Wrath of the Righteous 3 times now, and really delving into how the Crusades have fallen into corruption and how it contrasts with every enemy having the potential to be redeemed by the players has been a lot of fun for me. From Mendevian bigotry towards Sarkoris and their worship of God-Callers and the Green Faith, to the Witch Hunts of the Crusade that saw innocent people murdered, to all the Paladins and Clerics of Good overlooking Nurah's enslavement because they need warm bodies or just don't care about a Halfling, to Arueshalae coming to understand what a horrible person she's been and doing what she can to make the world better in whatever way she can, and plenty of other examples besides. The clash of alignments and ideals and actions adds so much imo.

But it seems like other people more often see alignment as a cage or otherwise limiting? Or worse, a way to justify being a horrible player to play with. I dunno, its not the end of the world or anything that its being removed, but it just makes me kind of sad.

stream is live for those who want more answers

https://www.twitch.tv/officialpaizo

I'm just thinking when they talk about "Well obviously no alignment altering variant rules" with "So what about variant rules to add alternate alignment systems?"

Yeah I'm probably bit desperate. I'm surprisingly devastated by this right now x'D I didn't know I cared about alignment that much, I knew I always liked it, but I don't think I expected to have to worry about it being removed until ten years in 3e...

(I don't want to be forced to have one of my pathfinder infinite product ideas be alternate alignment systems I've been homebrewing :'D )

Here's hoping the in depth seminar at PaizoCon gets recorded and posted to YouTube or Twitch.

KaiBlob1 wrote:

stream is live for those who want more answers

https://www.twitch.tv/officialpaizo

I'm just thinking when they talk about "Well obviously no alignment altering variant rules" with "So what about variant rules to add alternate alignment systems?"

Yeah I'm probably bit desperate. I'm surprisingly devastated by this right now x'D I didn't know I cared about alignment that much, I knew I always liked it, but I don't think I expected to have to worry about it being removed until ten years in 3e...

I'm assuming the existing rules will linger on AoN and if you already have the current CRB, Bob's your uncle.

Within the last month, I spent over $1000 on books to switch my group over to Pathfinder. This feels like a slap in the face.

I cannot say I’m pleased with the removal of alignment. I understand many have misgivings about it but that’s a massive change to the lore of the Great Beyond. I’m having flashbacks of 4th Edition.

Having been working on a Planescape-inspired supplement entirely set in the Great Beyond for Pathfinder Infinite that doesn't use alignment, I can assure it might be a refining of the lore, but not a departure. I am very steadfast that ditiching alignment will in fact be a better reflection of the setting.

Sidenote: I'm very glad this got announced before I wrotet hat section of Paths Beyond up! Saves me some work.

Within the last month, I spent over $1000 on books to switch my group over to Pathfinder. This feels like a slap in the face.

Yeah I hate it too when companies try to update their products or improve their systems.

Very happy about the removal of Alignment, hoping this also means the removal of anathemas.

A couple things from the stream:

-Much of this Remaster was prompted by the need to pivot from OGL to being entirely ORC.

-Spell Level is out, so that you're not juggling two unrelated Levels as a spellcaster; they're now called Spell Ranks.

-Nephilim are a Versatile Heritage, an umbrella term for lots of planar scions. They've mentioned we'll see lots of familiar Lineages here.

-There's a little bit of theming across these new Player Cores; that's why Druid, Ranger, and Leshies are all in the same book.

-Alignment is out, with the option for characters to create their own Edicts and Anathemas if they cling strongly to their principles. There's talk that a Cleric might be able to be "holy" and put some extra hurt on an "unholy" Demon, but they also say that your party Rogue (or whoever else) has the option to not care about that stuff at all. There's talk about how Barbarians and Druids already played with this some.

-Free Archetype variant rule is in GM Core - still as an optional variant rule.

-Magic Items are in the GM Core. Crafting getting tinkered with yet more. Talismans are getting a shot in the arm.

-The book is mostly Bestiary 1 veterans, but there some surprises.. OGL critters are out, with new stuff to replace them. Dragons are getting tweaked to be sorted by their magical Tradition; a "Mirage Dragon" was namedropped.

-Rage of Elements is the first book made in this Remaster style.

No more alignment? At long freaking last!!! Huzzah and hurray!!! Finally, it's being taken out behind the woodshed and given the "Old Yeller" treatment it deserves!

And hey, even if they don't fully pull the trigger on nixing the hateful thing, it's still a step in the right direction. Much kudos and accolades to whoever is responsible for this.

Seriously, put in a page saying "No more alignment!", get whoever the person or team responsible to sign the page, and release it as a special edition. You will make millions. It will dwarf the selling of months worth of materials in a matter of weeks.

...

One thing I'm wondering is whether the additional ancestries in the two Player Core books will stay uncommon or worse, or if Paizo will be nixing that with this new updated format. As in, will players who bought Player Core 2 (or even Player Core 1, since it has two more ancestries than 2E started with) with the reasonable expectation that they can play as the things advertised on the back of the book? And I mean without needing to negotiate, bribe, cajole, catch the GM on a good day, etc (at least no more needing to negotiate for a catfolk or an orc than an elf or a human).

Very happy about the removal of Alignment, hoping this also means the removal of anathemas.

That would be bad for me, I don't like stuff that I like being all removed D:

(its already kinda disheartening to listen to stream and hear Bulhman and Logan downplay changes when I just keep hearing "But the removed alignment" which makes it feel like my opinion is pointless. Like I wouldn't have minded alignment being changed, it just being removed without adding something interesting to replace it bothers me)

A couple things from the stream:

-Much of this Remaster was prompted by the need to pivot from OGL to being entirely ORC.

-Spell Level is out, so that you're not juggling two unrelated Levels as a spellcaster; they're now called Spell Ranks.

-Nephilim are a Versatile Heritage, an umbrella term for lots of planar scions. They've mentioned we'll see lots of familiar Lineages here.

-There's a little bit of theming across these new Player Cores; that's why Druid, Ranger, and Leshies are all in the same book.

-Alignment is out, with the option for characters to create their own Edicts and Anathemas if they cling strongly to their principles. There's talk that a Cleric might be able to be "holy" and put some extra hurt on an "unholy" Demon, but they also say that your party Rogue (or whoever else) has the option to not care about that stuff at all. There's talk about how Barbarians and Druids already played with this some.

-Free Archetype variant rule is in GM Core - still as an optional variant rule.

-Magic Items are in the GM Core. Crafting getting tinkered with yet more. Talismans are getting a shot in the arm.

-The book is mostly Bestiary 1 veterans, but there some surprises.. OGL critters are out, with new stuff to replace them. Dragons are getting tweaked to be sorted by their magical Tradition; a "Mirage Dragon" was namedropped.

-Rage of Elements is the first book made in this Remaster style.

Love you for this, I'm stuck at work.

They can't just call it "Pathfinder Second Edition". This is an edition change from everything discussed in the live stream. It might retain backwards compatibility, but it is an edition change. It's not just errata and formatting changes.

This is entirely akin to what WotC is doing with their "backwards compatible certainly is not sixth edition" D&D thing. They just think that announcing an edition change is too damning to come out and say so.

Secret Wizard wrote:

Very happy about the removal of Alignment, hoping this also means the removal of anathemas.

That would be bad for me, I don't like stuff that I like being all removed D:

(its already kinda disheartening to listen to stream and hear Bulhman and Logan downplay changes when I just keep hearing "But the removed alignment" which makes it feel like my opinion is pointless. Like I wouldn't have minded alignment being changed, it just being removed without adding something interesting to replace it bothers me)

IMO, reading between the lines, it seems like characters will be able to select optional edicts and anathemas which will grant them traits like holy, unholy, etc. So, in effect, players who care about having alignment can still have it but folks you play with who don't care about it, won't have to fuss with it. Further, GMs won't be able to mandate to all their players, which makes sense, since there's definitely players who are irritated by alignment.

In bigger news, ability scores are out. Everything just looks at ability modifiers (which was already the case).