Tian Xia: Coming 2023–2024!

CynDuck wrote:

Rogues, thaumaturges, and swashbucklers all come to mind as having solid options to build a ninja off of, I really doubt it would be as complicated to make as you claim.

I wanted to circle back to this as I didn't have time before to get into it.

Rogues: Sibelius Eos Owm hit on one issue, the proficiencies: they can't even throw a ninja star [shuriken]! Second, while they fill the skill part just fine, they lack any focus powers or movement abilities which makes for a lackluster ninja IMO. It's the flipside with monks, where they they have the focus spells and movement abilities but lack some basic skills type abilities [nothing poison, trap, ect].

swashbucklers: about the exact opposite of a ninja: they want to be seen and do so with "spectacular flair"! You are dancing, bantering, taunting, performing, tumbling and fencing: a "state of flair is called panache". This is antithetical to a ninja IMO. With everything basically tied to and powered by jumping up and down yelling 'here I am, look at me!', this goes to the bottom of the barrel for me.

thaumaturges: Not feeling this one either: lacks the movement type abilities, the skill ability areas AND focus spells [mirror is something but the only one that could fit]. That and I don't see a ninja needing to roll for a lore check to work. Now for an Onmyouji or fulu pai it fits the bill well.

I get your objections to the rogue, but I still don't see why the swashbuckler and thaumaturge don't work. The swashbuckler is more of the stylish fighter class, and while that can involve drawing attention to yourself nothing about the class makes that necessary. I suggested it mainly for the fencer subclass which is all about misdirection and feinting.

For the thaumaturge the main thing I'd like to point out is that any character can get stealth and speed abilities pretty easily, it doesn't take some weird mixture of archetypes to pull that off. Also for the recall knowledge part studying your opponent to find a weakness feels pretty fitting to me.

I still don't see why the swashbuckler and thaumaturge don't work.

*shrug* I already stated why I thought so: the mechanics don't do a good job of enable what I think of as ninja. In fact, taking the best of both of them added together isn't as good as a monk. If you can't see it, I don't think anything I can say will change your mind.

those are some really weird idea of ninja

Pretty standard ninja fare from my perspective. Just look at the PF1 ninja once: they get ki like the monk did [and can use it to increase attacks, boost speed and buff stealth at base], get poison use, use a breath weapon, gain darkvision, feather fall, cause a thrown weapon to explode like a splash weapon, make venom, poison bombs, shadow clones, disguise self, turn invisible, gain climb speed, buff acrobatics, alter self, pass through walls, create an illusory double that moves independently, walk through air, get non-detection...

PS: To the point about classes needing to be useful outside Tian, there is a ninja clan operating in Avistan, frozen Shadow with most members being Tian, Ulfen, and Varki humans. There are also ninjas that are enforcers for the Living God. This shows they exist outside of Tian and into the inner seas.

PS: To the point about classes needing to be useful outside Tian, there is a ninja clan operating in Avistan, frozen Shadow with most members being Tian, Ulfen, and Varki humans. There are also ninjas that are enforcers for the Living God. This shows they exist outside of Tian and into the inner seas.

Minor point: To me the important distinction is not as much about a hypothetical ninja-like magic+stealth class being useful outside Tian Xia, it's about universalizing a concept that heretofore mainly represents fantasy Japan. The Frozen Shadows prove that ninja clans operate outside of Minkai, but that clan was from Minkai and originally exist specifically in a capacity related to Minkai. The difficulty isn't that ninjas aren't western enough, it's that 'Ninja' as a concept only represents Minkai.

Immediate counterpoint: I think there is probably room for a ninja-like magic-stealth class to exist. As you have mentioned, apparently Razmir even employs magic-wielding spy-assassins. My only objection is that whatever form the magic-spy-assassin character option takes, it shouldn't be based only on ninjas simply because ninjas are only the fantasy Japan expression of that concept.

The difficulty isn't that ninjas aren't western enough, it's that 'Ninja' as a concept only represents Minkai.

I don't see a Minkai link to the Mask of the Living God 'clan' though. They are even proficient with bolas, saps, and whips to silence heretics and blasphemers for a bit of a different spin on things.

Oh exciting! I'm part chinese so I'm looking forward to some chinese inspired options--Or even cover non cn/jp stuff because asia is really quite vast. My unfounded hope is some Malaysia stuff lol (im specifically malaysian chinese). I see Wayang and I'm curious what the Bakuwa is in reference to!

Edit: Did some googling and ohh is it a reference to Philippine mythology, Bakunawa?! People that realise there's more to asia than just china japan korea? Okay now I'm definitely infinitely hyped! Will have to buy these! With more actual lore in maybe some players can see there's more to it than just samurais and kitsune.

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

The difficulty isn't that ninjas aren't western enough, it's that 'Ninja' as a concept only represents Minkai.

I don't see a Minkai link to the Mask of the Living God 'clan' though. They are even proficient with bolas, saps, and whips to silence heretics and blasphemers for a bit of a different spin on things.

The point you were looking for is in the next paragraph. I love the idea of Razmir having shadowy assassins with supernatural abilities working to silence the non-believers. There are layers of distinction here that are hard to convey because they all begin with trying to restate the word 'ninja' in different ways to mean different things.

To attempt to clarify: supernatural-spy-assassins are not a Minkai-exclusive concept. The Shadowdancer archetype clearly demonstrates this even if the Mask of the Living God didn't (which I think it does). However, a class called Ninja, and based on Japanese ninjas, is relatively Minkai-specific (perhaps Shokuro, too) because we don't want to paint all of Tian Xia with things borrowed from Japanese fantasy/myth/history. A class that can do the Minkaian ninja but also equally set up for a Red Mantis or Lion Blade would be ideal, which to me means making a class that doesn't specifically grant proficiency with katanas or nunchaku but can be taken anywhere that nobles need political rivals infiltrated or executed just as easily.

(For this reason I kind of feel like saving back "Assassin" as a class name wouldn't have been a bad idea. It already has the game precedent of having had magical powers combined with a roguish base, but that ship has sailed it would seem.)

--

PS. the fact that the character art I'm looking at for the Mask of Razmir ninja has a katana, nunchaku, and sai should probably attributed to the fact that the 1e ninja was specifically proficient with these weapons, but if taken at face value, one might argue that they're evidence that even Razmir's ninjas are part of a tradition that reaches back to Minkai or other nations where access to those weapons is common i.e. Jinin and Shokuro

These multiple different merge of view points that make I defend that they deserve a dedicated class.

I was looking at all the different viewpoints and thought that was a good indicator that ninja would make a great archetype, instead. If a bunch of different classes have parts of the fantasy you want and kitbashing multiclasses together isn't streamlined enough for someone to make the fantasy work, then to my mind an archetype is the next logical step there.

Also, a ninja archetype would fit into free archetype games really well.

Not really so enthusiastic about a ninja or samurai class/archetype. There isn't in my mind enough stuff unique about it compared to a regular fighter or rogue. I imagine there's a bit of the nostalgia with them in that they were classes in 1e, but I'm still iffy about it.

However, a class called Ninja, and based on Japanese ninjas, is relatively Minkai-specific (perhaps Shokuro, too) because we don't want to paint all of Tian Xia with things borrowed from Japanese fantasy/myth/history. A class that can do the Minkaian ninja but also equally set up for a Red Mantis or Lion Blade would be ideal, which to me means making a class that doesn't specifically grant proficiency with katanas or nunchaku but can be taken anywhere that nobles need political rivals infiltrated or executed just as easily.

I don't think the name means much as it's the name the game gives the class and doesn't have to be the one they call themselves: not every ranger will call themselves as such, nor every gunslinger.

As to using the mechanics for other types of characters, it could easily fit other mystic sneaky themes: like Mask of the Living God, you could have an Osirian cult that tracks down those that breaks into the ancient tombs, a tattooed Varisian group that scouts out new area and takes care of those that endanger the clans, Spireborn elves taking back magic that they deem as theirs, ect. Seems versatile to me.

As to the weapon proficiencies, well that is an issue with giving individual weapon proficiencies instead of things like simple and martial: you need to specifically remove them if you want to fit them into someplace else that has different weapons as a result. A simple way to fix that is to not repeat individual weapon proficiencies for classes and just give weapon categories.

I was looking at all the different viewpoints and thought that was a good indicator that ninja would make a great archetype, instead. If a bunch of different classes have parts of the fantasy you want and kitbashing multiclasses together isn't streamlined enough for someone to make the fantasy work, then to my mind an archetype is the next logical step there.

I'm quite wary of an archetype as you'd need a fairly substantial number of feats, IMO, to do it justice, especially if it's an open archetype vs a class one.

Also, a ninja archetype would fit into free archetype games really well.

Most non-multiclass archetypes don't work neatly with free archetype as they are missing feats for some levels and/or just have less feats than free archetype gives meaning you have to use multiple archetypes to fill it out. I mean, you could take every feat in Pirate and Turpin Rowe Lumberjack and STILL have a free archetype feat open to take.

The complaints about universality are curious.

I have never heard it suggested that one should not make a Vudran swashbuckler or a Gokan paladin even though those words are both steeped in European literary traditions. One person expressed a sentiment about Druids but most people appear fine with their ability to be translated as well.

Yet there always seems to be concern over the alleged universality of words like monk and ninja, despite somewhat of a consensus on what those terms represent.

This dichotomy gives the impression that the word universal is coded language meant to represent Europe and Whiteness, or perhaps the Anglosphere more specifically. Such that saying a term is not universal enough is to say that it is insufficiently white in its current form.

Given the consistency in which terms within the European tradition are used freely while terms outside it are subject to enhanced scrutiny, I do not see any other way to parse that framing even if that may not be the intent of individual writers.

Classes are generic movesets. A Champion, or Paladin, isn't limited to a European setting, as a mystical samurai can easily be one. A Champion can be associated to any deity from any pantheon.

What about a Wizard? They don't need to be the classical pointy-hat wearing dude with a white beard. In Japan, your wizard can use a bunch of scrolls as their spellbook.

I don't understand how a Middle-East swashbuckler would be offputting, when you have characters like the Prince of Persia, Sinbad, Aladdin and others. Speaking of Japanese and Chinese swashbucklers, look no further than kung-fu movies :P

pillar of eternity did monk the best and didn't have east asian monk character

ninja in 1e was lazy mix class of rogue and monk

a mistake 2e should not be trying to imitate

Are people seriously waiting until after time, research, writing, and money has been sunk into the books all about anachronistic Asia on another planet to raise questions about how it could be culturally insensitive or inappropriate... seriously?

People have been practically begging for these books for years now and Paizo does everything any reasonable and ethical company could ever be expected to do (and more) when it comes to trying to approach these things from a respectful and genuine angle.

Is the problem the actual terms "ninja" and "samurai" and how it's been done to death by hacks, the ignorant, sometimes racist, and lazy writers over the last 30-odd years? That's... not what we should expect from the folks behind this and I think we all already know it. Shoot, my main qualm about this as someone who isn't really too hyped is that it's going to feel TOO bland and "leveled" between all the cooks in the kitchen plus a hefty dose of assurance that it's not directly working from real earth cultures on 1-to-1 basis... The last thing people should be worrying about from my perspective is that it will be problematic.

I think the issue is that Ninjas and Samurai aren’t even universally Asian - they specifically come from one nation, Japan, which has a disproportionate reach in Western pop culture.

Things get a little dicey when that leads, as it did in 1e Tian materials, to the whole continent being full of Samurai. That’s a little tacky… but quickly rises to being outright offensive when you’re making Fantasy Korean and Fantasy Filipino characters into “Samurai,” or saying that any fighting traditions of any other culture there doesn’t deserve a full class treatment while Japan apparently earns two. Tian Xia already has three Japanese nations (Jinin, Minkai, and Shokuro) - enshrining that favoritism in the mechanics, too, is not the move.

If any classes should be “paired” with the continent, it’s the upcoming Kineticist and a reworked 2e Shaman, not “Japanese Fighter” and “Japanese Rogue.”

I think the issue is that Ninjas and Samurai aren’t even universally Asian - they specifically come from one nation, Japan, which has a disproportionate reach in Western pop culture.

Things get a little dicey when that leads, as it did in 1e Tian materials, to the whole continent being full of Samurai. That’s a little tacky… but quickly rises to being outright offensive when you’re making Fantasy Korean and Fantasy Filipino characters into “Samurai,” or saying that any fighting traditions of any other culture there doesn’t deserve a full class treatment while Japan apparently earns two. Tian Xia already has three Japanese nations (Jinin, Minkai, and Shokuro) - enshrining that favoritism in the mechanics, too, is not the move.

If any classes should be “paired” with the continent, it’s the upcoming Kineticist and a reworked 2e Shaman, not “Japanese Fighter” and “Japanese Rogue.”

jinin is not a japan name

so that might change in 2e

Are people seriously waiting until after time, research, writing, and money has been sunk into the books all about anachronistic Asia on another planet to raise questions about how it could be culturally insensitive or inappropriate... seriously?

People have been practically begging for these books for years now and Paizo does everything any reasonable and ethical company could ever be expected to do (and more) when it comes to trying to approach these things from a respectful and genuine angle.

Is the problem the actual terms "ninja" and "samurai" and how it's been done to death by hacks, the ignorant, sometimes racist, and lazy writers over the last 30-odd years? That's... not what we should expect from the folks behind this and I think we all already know it. Shoot, my main qualm about this as someone who isn't really too hyped is that it's going to feel TOO bland and "leveled" between all the cooks in the kitchen plus a hefty dose of assurance that it's not directly working from real earth cultures on 1-to-1 basis... The last thing people should be worrying about from my perspective is that it will be problematic.

the problem is not other pop culture

but how horrible samurai and ninja are in 1e

2e should avoid the same mistake

keftiu wrote:

I think the issue is that Ninjas and Samurai aren’t even universally Asian - they specifically come from one nation, Japan, which has a disproportionate reach in Western pop culture.

Things get a little dicey when that leads, as it did in 1e Tian materials, to the whole continent being full of Samurai. That’s a little tacky… but quickly rises to being outright offensive when you’re making Fantasy Korean and Fantasy Filipino characters into “Samurai,” or saying that any fighting traditions of any other culture there doesn’t deserve a full class treatment while Japan apparently earns two. Tian Xia already has three Japanese nations (Jinin, Minkai, and Shokuro) - enshrining that favoritism in the mechanics, too, is not the move.

If any classes should be “paired” with the continent, it’s the upcoming Kineticist and a reworked 2e Shaman, not “Japanese Fighter” and “Japanese Rogue.”

jinin is not a japan name

so that might change in 2e

Jinin might not be a Japanese name, but it's a whole nation of elves who found the local samurai to be SO honorable, they reshaped their entire society into their image... or at least, that was the 1e lore.

I don't expect that to be so nearly as lacking in nuance as it was in 1e, but there's 2e art of a Jininese elf in a kimono in... the LOCG, I wanna say?

Are people seriously waiting until after time, research, writing, and money has been sunk into the books all about anachronistic Asia on another planet to raise questions about how it could be culturally insensitive or inappropriate... seriously?

People have been practically begging for these books for years now and Paizo does everything any reasonable and ethical company could ever be expected to do (and more) when it comes to trying to approach these things from a respectful and genuine angle.

Is the problem the actual terms "ninja" and "samurai" and how it's been done to death by hacks, the ignorant, sometimes racist, and lazy writers over the last 30-odd years? That's... not what we should expect from the folks behind this and I think we all already know it. Shoot, my main qualm about this as someone who isn't really too hyped is that it's going to feel TOO bland and "leveled" between all the cooks in the kitchen plus a hefty dose of assurance that it's not directly working from real earth cultures on 1-to-1 basis... The last thing people should be worrying about from my perspective is that it will be problematic.

The argument's gone a bit all over the place, right now it's more about whether there's enough thematic depth to justify a ninja class rather than whether or not it's offensive.

I think the issue is that Ninjas and Samurai aren’t even universally Asian - they specifically come from one nation, Japan, which has a disproportionate reach in Western pop culture.

Things get a little dicey when that leads, as it did in 1e Tian materials, to the whole continent being full of Samurai. That’s a little tacky… but quickly rises to being outright offensive when you’re making Fantasy Korean and Fantasy Filipino characters into “Samurai,” or saying that any fighting traditions of any other culture there doesn’t deserve a full class treatment while Japan apparently earns two. Tian Xia already has three Japanese nations (Jinin, Minkai, and Shokuro) - enshrining that favoritism in the mechanics, too, is not the move.

If any classes should be “paired” with the continent, it’s the upcoming Kineticist and a reworked 2e Shaman, not “Japanese Fighter” and “Japanese Rogue.”

The same could not be already said about the currently monks?

keftiu wrote:

I think the issue is that Ninjas and Samurai aren’t even universally Asian - they specifically come from one nation, Japan, which has a disproportionate reach in Western pop culture.

Things get a little dicey when that leads, as it did in 1e Tian materials, to the whole continent being full of Samurai. That’s a little tacky… but quickly rises to being outright offensive when you’re making Fantasy Korean and Fantasy Filipino characters into “Samurai,” or saying that any fighting traditions of any other culture there doesn’t deserve a full class treatment while Japan apparently earns two. Tian Xia already has three Japanese nations (Jinin, Minkai, and Shokuro) - enshrining that favoritism in the mechanics, too, is not the move.

If any classes should be “paired” with the continent, it’s the upcoming Kineticist and a reworked 2e Shaman, not “Japanese Fighter” and “Japanese Rogue.”

The same could not be already said about the currently monks?

They are clearly based in kungfu/wushu concept instead of a general brawler. I still don't see why there's no space for samurais/ninjas and any other more specific culture oriented classes. Make those classes doesn't mean that make they need to be the only one prevalent in the region. If paizo wants they could make other classes representing other cultures or a big class that englobes then all or subclasses for some currently existing ones (but I still think that archetypes are insufficient to fit all complex needs).

You've been mentioning other cultural classes a lot so I'm curious, what other examples do you have in mind?

Really "shadowy magic-wielding spy assassins" seems like the sort of thing that should always be an archetype (possibly tied to an organization) rather than a class. The number of assassins anybody needs is fairly limited after all and you're really not somebody that anybody is going to send out in the field for espionage, sabotage, and assassination as a level 1 character anyway.

Similarly "member of a noble caste of officers who form the backbone of the army of the local lord" is also not a responsibility you hand to level 1 nobodies.

I would also like to point out that the rules content of the World Guide books are pretty light, and if the Character Guide was going to have a new class in it they would have mentioned that. So if we're getting any ninja or samurai content, it's as archetypes, which is a fine way to do that sort of thing.

Really "shadowy magic-wielding spy assassins" seems like the sort of thing that should always be an archetype (possibly tied to an organization) rather than a class. The number of assassins anybody needs is fairly limited after all and you're really not somebody that anybody is going to send out in the field for espionage, sabotage, and assassination as a level 1 character anyway.

Similarly "member of a noble caste of officers who form the backbone of the army of the local lord" is also not a responsibility you hand to level 1 nobodies.

I would also like to point out that the rules content of the World Guide books are pretty light, and if the Character Guide was going to have a new class in it they would have mentioned that. So if we're getting any ninja or samurai content, it's as archetypes, which is a fine way to do that sort of thing.

You're not the first person to get this mixed up so I think I should clarify, people here aren't arguing about a samurai or ninja class in the character guide, they're arguing about one appearing in a separate book later on. I agree with the rest of what you said though.

My hope is that a 2e Shaman class is coming in 2024, as the word is drawn from the traditions of certain Siberian/North Asian peoples, but also fits well for the greater focus on spirits we see across Tian Xia. Need someone who can entreat the kami for help with a harvest, banish a haunting on your property, or ask the winds to fill your sails? That's a Shaman's job.

You've been mentioning other cultural classes a lot so I'm curious, what other examples do you have in mind?

I'm not good with other ideias once my knowledge about east Asia is too limite but probably Musa/Maehwa but I don't know of what fantastic concept they have, still need a more more investigation if a class is necessary or if it fits better in a currently class or in a new subclass or (class) archetype.

I'm sorry if I don't have to much ideas but Paizo probably would have due its contacts.

Bit disappointing we'll be getting the Adventure Path set in Shenmen before the Guides work; meaning we won't have these iconic ancestries as options in the land they're from.

Still hyped, though; already planning on saving up Achievement Points for PFS to eventually buy my tanuki option there.

keftiu wrote:

I think the issue is that Ninjas and Samurai aren’t even universally Asian - they specifically come from one nation, Japan, which has a disproportionate reach in Western pop culture.

Things get a little dicey when that leads, as it did in 1e Tian materials, to the whole continent being full of Samurai. That’s a little tacky… but quickly rises to being outright offensive when you’re making Fantasy Korean and Fantasy Filipino characters into “Samurai,” or saying that any fighting traditions of any other culture there doesn’t deserve a full class treatment while Japan apparently earns two. Tian Xia already has three Japanese nations (Jinin, Minkai, and Shokuro) - enshrining that favoritism in the mechanics, too, is not the move.

If any classes should be “paired” with the continent, it’s the upcoming Kineticist and a reworked 2e Shaman, not “Japanese Fighter” and “Japanese Rogue.”

The same could not be already said about the currently monks?

They are clearly based in kungfu/wushu concept instead of a general brawler. I still don't see why there's no space for samurais/ninjas and any other more specific culture oriented classes. Make those classes doesn't mean that make they need to be the only one prevalent in the region. If paizo wants they could make other classes representing other cultures or a big class that englobes then all or subclasses for some currently existing ones (but I still think that archetypes are insufficient to fit all complex needs).

isn't that the point of archetype system

imagine if knight of last wall are a class instead of 40 archetype feat anyone can get

or all of those feat limited to fighter and champion

it would be extreme waste

My hope is that a 2e Shaman class is coming in 2024, as the word is drawn from the traditions of certain Siberian/North Asian peoples, but also fits well for the greater focus on spirits we see across Tian Xia. Need someone who can entreat the kami for help with a harvest, banish a haunting on your property, or ask the winds to fill your sails? That's a Shaman's job.

would much rather shaman work more like folklorist or chanter from pillar of eternity

keftiu wrote:

My hope is that a 2e Shaman class is coming in 2024, as the word is drawn from the traditions of certain Siberian/North Asian peoples, but also fits well for the greater focus on spirits we see across Tian Xia. Need someone who can entreat the kami for help with a harvest, banish a haunting on your property, or ask the winds to fill your sails? That's a Shaman's job.

would much rather shaman work more like folklorist or chanter from pillar of eternity

The Chanter was just a Bard with an emphasis on summon spells. I don’t think that concept has much of anything to do with shamanism, and isn’t anything you can’t currently do in PF2.

Most non-multiclass archetypes don't work neatly with free archetype as they are missing feats for some levels and/or just have less feats than free archetype gives meaning you have to use multiple archetypes to fill it out. I mean, you could take every feat in Pirate and Turpin Rowe Lumberjack and STILL have a free archetype feat open to take.

Then give the archetype more feats? Your arguments aren't really against an archetype, they're against a small archetype and, yeah that's super fair. Bigger archetype usually equals more fun and more thematic space covered.

25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:

keftiu wrote:

My hope is that a 2e Shaman class is coming in 2024, as the word is drawn from the traditions of certain Siberian/North Asian peoples, but also fits well for the greater focus on spirits we see across Tian Xia. Need someone who can entreat the kami for help with a harvest, banish a haunting on your property, or ask the winds to fill your sails? That's a Shaman's job.

would much rather shaman work more like folklorist or chanter from pillar of eternity

The Chanter was just a Bard with an emphasis on summon spells. I don’t think that concept has much of anything to do with shamanism, and isn’t anything you can’t currently do in PF2.

the point of chanter are not buff or debuff song but the whole accumulate phrase into spell thing

pretty sure thaumaturge have something that get accumulate over 3 turn in playtest

also protection circle

really hope paizo eventually put those feat out in balanced state

Really "shadowy magic-wielding spy assassins" seems like the sort of thing that should always be an archetype (possibly tied to an organization) rather than a class. The number of assassins anybody needs is fairly limited after all and you're really not somebody that anybody is going to send out in the field for espionage, sabotage, and assassination as a level 1 character anyway.

Similarly "member of a noble caste of officers who form the backbone of the army of the local lord" is also not a responsibility you hand to level 1 nobodies.

I would also like to point out that the rules content of the World Guide books are pretty light, and if the Character Guide was going to have a new class in it they would have mentioned that. So if we're getting any ninja or samurai content, it's as archetypes, which is a fine way to do that sort of thing.

I mean the way I view a Ninja class would be like how Monk is in that feats define the flavor of the character you are playing so if someone wanted to do a Ninja with no magic they could do it or the other way around I feel there are a lot different ways you could do a ninja so a class with feats that allow those different builds would be cool.

Also just to respond to future "but make it with archetypes" Gunslinger, Swashbuckler and Investigator exist I feel if they can exist Ninja can (probably with a more generic name tho).

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Really "shadowy magic-wielding spy assassins" seems like the sort of thing that should always be an archetype (possibly tied to an organization) rather than a class. The number of assassins anybody needs is fairly limited after all and you're really not somebody that anybody is going to send out in the field for espionage, sabotage, and assassination as a level 1 character anyway.

Similarly "member of a noble caste of officers who form the backbone of the army of the local lord" is also not a responsibility you hand to level 1 nobodies.

I would also like to point out that the rules content of the World Guide books are pretty light, and if the Character Guide was going to have a new class in it they would have mentioned that. So if we're getting any ninja or samurai content, it's as archetypes, which is a fine way to do that sort of thing.

I mean the way I view a Ninja class would be like how Monk is in that feats define the flavor of the character you are playing so if someone wanted to do a Ninja with no magic they could do it or the other way around I feel there are a lot different ways you could do a ninja so a class with feats that allow those different builds would be cool.

Also just to respond to future "but make it with archetypes" Gunslinger, Swashbuckler and Investigator exist I feel if they can exist Ninja can (probably with a more generic name tho).

Without magic as a main class feature, what will separate it from the rouge or monk? I don't think ninja should be a class, but if it is going to be a class, I feel like magic is one of the only avenues they could take

CorvusMask wrote:

Ya know, if we ever got shuriken improving archetype, it better be fricking accurate to how they are supposed to be used.

Mostly that shurikens are kinda like caltrops, you are supposed to throw them at enemy while you are escaping :p

How would you recommend representing that mechanically?

Something similar to the hampering trait where you create difficult terrain would could work. Not that exactly since the trait only really makes sense with melee weapons as written, and it could probably afford to be a bit stronger if you're spending an archetype feat to get the ability.

I think shadowdancers make pretty good ninjas. Samurai are better represented by rangers, maybe with the cavalier archetype, than by fighers.

Either way, neither will be full classes in any announced book, nor should they be if PF2 is to avoid class bloat.

Which samurai tradition weapons do we have in 2E?

Which samurai tradition weapons do we have in 2E? I can think of the katana off hand and the naginata.

...but quickly rises to being outright offensive when you’re making Fantasy Korean and Fantasy Filipino characters into “Samurai,”...

Don't you go and start telling me what characters I can and cannot play!

;P

keftiu wrote:

...but quickly rises to being outright offensive when you’re making Fantasy Korean and Fantasy Filipino characters into “Samurai,”...

Don't you go and start telling me what characters I can and cannot play!

;P

There’s a lot of raw feelings about some of Japan’s actions to its neighbors during its time as an imperial power - history that is still in living memory, and denied by many in modern Japan. It’s not just a cutesy internet thing.

It adds an extra layer of complication to the already-frustrating issue of Japan being treated as the only nation in Asia by folks outside of it.

Pieces-Kai wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Really "shadowy magic-wielding spy assassins" seems like the sort of thing that should always be an archetype (possibly tied to an organization) rather than a class. The number of assassins anybody needs is fairly limited after all and you're really not somebody that anybody is going to send out in the field for espionage, sabotage, and assassination as a level 1 character anyway.

Similarly "member of a noble caste of officers who form the backbone of the army of the local lord" is also not a responsibility you hand to level 1 nobodies.

I would also like to point out that the rules content of the World Guide books are pretty light, and if the Character Guide was going to have a new class in it they would have mentioned that. So if we're getting any ninja or samurai content, it's as archetypes, which is a fine way to do that sort of thing.

I mean the way I view a Ninja class would be like how Monk is in that feats define the flavor of the character you are playing so if someone wanted to do a Ninja with no magic they could do it or the other way around I feel there are a lot different ways you could do a ninja so a class with feats that allow those different builds would be cool.

Also just to respond to future "but make it with archetypes" Gunslinger, Swashbuckler and Investigator exist I feel if they can exist Ninja can (probably with a more generic name tho).

Without magic as a main class feature, what will separate it from the rouge or monk? I don't think ninja should be a class, but if it is going to be a class, I feel like magic is one of the only avenues they could take

Another interesting ninja concept can also be more martial and less magic with similar effects using a mix of Alchemy (specially bombs and mutagens) and Thaumaturge like scrolls.

I think shadowdancers make pretty good ninjas. Samurai are better represented by rangers, maybe with the cavalier archetype, than by fighers.

I don't think that Samurai would be well represented by rangers due the lack of heavy armor proficiency and Hunt Prey mechanics. But I can see the non-agile/finesse precision damage representing the cut clean of kenjutsu techniques.

Samurai could be a single to 2-handed blade martial that does extra precision damage and have some fighter one and 2-hand feats + ki feats.

...nor should they be if PF2 is to avoid class bloat.

This wont happen! We are going to a class bloat direction without stop since the moment they put classes in APG and SoM. The designers could use things like class archetypes instead of full classes (Investigator could be a CA for Rogues and Rangers, Oracles could be a CA for Divine Sorcerers, Swashbuckler could be a CA for Rogues and Fighters, Witch could be a CA for Wizards, Magus could be a CA for Wizards, Summoner could be a CA for Sorcerers and so on).

So don't fall into self illusion. Soon we will have more extra classes than we have CRB classes (currently there are 12 CRB classes vs 10+1 (Kineticist) extra classes).

This wont happen! We are going to a class bloat direction without stop since the moment they put classes in APG and SoM. The designers could use things like class archetypes instead of full classes (Investigator could be a CA for Rogues and Rangers, Oracles could be a CA for Divine Sorcerers, Swashbuckler could be a CA for Rogues and Fighters, Witch could be a CA for Wizards, Magus could be a CA for Wizards, Summoner could be a CA for Sorcerers and so on).
Probably this was a market decision more than a design decision once that classes are more easier to sell than expanded rule content.

So don't fall into self illusion. Soon we will have more extra classes than we have CRB classes (currently there are 12 CRB classes vs 10+1 (Kineticist) extra classes).

That's why I'm defending these region based class concept instead of archetype. Because I know they are bigger enough to not fit in a archetype without keep somethings outside and I already know that's their design choice was for new classes when some too complex appears.

To get away from the Ninja/Samurai argument some - do we think there'll be a primarily-Tian season of Society to pair with this? I'd love to see the Lantern Lodge stand on its own two feet.

Then give the archetype more feats? Your arguments aren't really against an archetype, they're against a small archetype and, yeah that's super fair. Bigger archetype usually equals more fun and more thematic space covered.

Unfortunately isn't so simple. Normal archetypes have 2 additional limitations. You need a dedication feat (so one less feat) the archetype feats balance is usually 2 levels bellow than same equivalent class feat and everything being a feat means that you have half of the size once this won't address the odd levels.

This can be different if is a Class Archetype but until now the Paizo designers only made this with small changes and few feats. They don't show any sign that will use CA for more intensive class modifications and until now they used CA very few times (just in SoM and G&G).

Which samurai tradition weapons do we have in 2E? I can think of the katana off hand and the naginata.

Katana, Kama, Kusarigama, Daikyu, Flintlock Firearms (copied from occident), Naginata, Tekko-Kagi, Sai, Tonfa, Tekko-Kagi.

Ravingdork wrote:

keftiu wrote:

...but quickly rises to being outright offensive when you’re making Fantasy Korean and Fantasy Filipino characters into “Samurai,”...

Don't you go and start telling me what characters I can and cannot play!

;P

There’s a lot of raw feelings about some of Japan’s actions to its neighbors during its time as an imperial power - history that is still in living memory, and denied by many in modern Japan. It’s not just a cutesy internet thing.

It adds an extra layer of complication to the already-frustrating issue of Japan being treated as the only nation in Asia by folks outside of it.

I agree. It isn't too to the point of beginning a new diplomatic incident by itself (yet sometimes they use it when they want to make one for some other reason) but may create a some difficulties for Paizo to sell books for some asiatic countries outside Japan.

But instead of not do anything the best is just do for everyone not only the Japanese based concepts.

Tbf, swoosh is right about Druid though.

Like Druid isn't general european term its specifically ancient Celt.

Which samurai tradition weapons do we have in 2E? I can think of the katana off hand and the naginata.

Traditional samurai weapons I can find on the Archives of Nethys (or the closest approximation thereof when it comes to 'by any other name' situations)

Katana, Kama, Kusarigama, Daikyu, Flintlock Firearms (copied from occident), Naginata, Tekko-Kagi, Sai, Tonfa, Tekko-Kagi.

Welp looks like I took too long afk and missed my op. I would add technically daggers can cover the tontou, and also you missed the nodachi, wakizashi, and bo staff. Meanwhile I would argue that tonfa seem to be more of an anti-samurai weapon. As an aside, I can't confirm that a sansetsukon was actually used by samurai outside of anime but it's there, too. Finally without a kanabo, there's always the great club which can serve the same purpose.

like any other warrior samurai mostly use polearm bow and gun

there is one record of kusarigama used to kill a named enemy

kanabo is used by oni in story but not samurai with nickname of oni

Sansetsukon also appears to be chinese weapon originally?

Sansetsukon also appears to be chinese weapon originally?

sansetsukon is the japanese name for it

there are also five section or seven section club in wuxia novel

Meanwhile, I see the objections that a class name doesn't have to be the definitive in-universe job description used by its members. This thread keeps moving so even had I the time and energy to unpack all that, it is rapidly getting swept away in the tide.

Even so, it is worth saying: being too persnickety about the name of the hypothetical magic-stealth class (as I think mostly I have been doing) does rather distract from my original point, so let me walk back and restate. The main reason why I object to a Ninja class is because I don't want to see a Rogue with the weapon proficiencies changed from rapiers and short swords to katana and wakizashi with the name "Ninja" slapped on to make it more exotic.

Do I imagine Paizo would do that? I would expect not! They did do it once, but they grow everyday from past mistakes and devs have expressed their dissatisfaction in the past with doing the 1e Ninja dirty that way. Personally if there's anything the pseudo-historical ninja can do that the Rogue class can't, I would want to see it added to Rogues (or an archetype aimed at Rogues and Monks) before seeing a separate class made with Sneak Attack and many of the same feats.

But there is more than that one 'Ninja' class being spoken of here. There's probably at least 3 by now. The class of which I had been speaking earlier, based on the Final Fantasy XIV Ninja (promotion of the Rogue base class) or the divisive Naruto ninja, who are as much sneaky elementalists with knives as they are spies or assassins, feels like it doesn't need to be called a ninja not because the word 'ninja' is not 'white' enough (indeed, the word ninja is just the one westerners are most comfortable with), but because I'd rather not, as a westerner, hold up a magic assassin and say "This is what a ninja is" while pretending that ninjas are a generically Asian character archetype.

In that regard, I agree. Druid is my least favourite class name because it takes a specific group (Celtic religious leader) about whom we actually know relatively little and about whom have grown an array of stereotypes based on the observations of outsiders to the culture. This is actually half of a post I never finished making about the topic of names on the previous page, only to see in the morning how far we'd moved since then.

TL;DR - I don't want a Ninja or Samurai class (as based on the historical examples of those things) because I don't want to pigeonhole those two to their stereotypes. My objections to using the word 'Ninja' concern the stealthy elementalist expression of the class and have nothing to do with the word not being 'white' enough--if anything it's overly westernized for if we were to do the concept of shinobi no mono justice.

--

Well, unsurprisingly that went long as usual. In that vein, perhaps the folks who desperately want a ninja and/or samurai class could found a thread talking about what they feel the identity of those classes are--whether that involves the ahistorical concept of 'sword spirits' as I saw somewhere upthread, which I believe most attribute to the anime Bleach for popularising, or a down-to-tacks historically accurate "shinobi" class path for a Samurai who specialises in subterfuge and infiltration aka ninja.

Would at least be productive, I hope, to scratch out the distinct and mutually exclusive concepts people want out of Ninja anyway? I hope.

As an aside back on the actual topic of this thread: I was looking forward to see what people think of Gatewalkers once it has all come out because I've been interested in running that for my group next, but now seeing this Season of Ghosts I am delighted and enticed by the distinctive style it brings with a 4-part AP over 4 seasons in a haunted nation in Tian Xia. We may have just finished Carrion Crown but no doubt my group would eat this up, as much as I'm personally still intensely curious to see all the lore threads in Gatewalkers come together.

Aren't you guys reading a little too much into this?

A historical ninja was essentially a spy whose job was mostly to gather intel and report them to their Lords. They rarely assassinated people, as blood splatters would be too glaring and obvious. The idea of this stealthy and powerful warrior came from medias.

In P1E, the Ninja had several supernatural abilities, and in P2E, those can be replicated with a spellcasting archetype, or the Eldritch Trickster racket. A Rogue with the Magus Archetype would fit your "traditional fantasy" Ninja.
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Samurais were appointed soldiers and bodyguards to Lords, coming from wealthy families and they were often seen with fine swords, usually family heirlooms. The thing is that in Japanese warfare, most soldiers used polearms to fight, not their katanas, because the extra reach kept them out of trouble. Katanas were usually used for close combats outside of battlefields and wakizashis were mostly used... to commit seppuku / harakiri.

As dumb as it's going to sound, a Cavalier, Champion or Fighter with the Swashbuckler archetype (and the Fencer style) can fit your Samurai, because of the Challenges.

I'm sure I don't speak for everyone or even a majority, but I've been playing D&D for over 30 years and Pathfinder for about 12-13 years.

That said Ninja and Samurai were a standalone class going back to Oriental Adventures, remade for 2e and again their own class in 3.5... and again in Pathfinder 1e. The argument to separate or neglect them just seems foolish and dumb.

I'm currently playing a "ninja" via gestalting a rogue and fighter with various feats for a lackluster ninja as others have put it. Sure it works considering the lack of options, but when you've been playing a ninja/samurai since the beginning you really notice what's missing.

It's the whole issue with 5e version of the Samurai archetype for fighter, it's really weak compared to what it should be.