Kineticist Playtest Analysis

Wednesday, October 5, 2022

Hello, all! I’m Logan Bonner, Pathfinder Lead Designer and the primary designer of the kineticist. Now that we’ve finished up the class playtest, I want to cover where we’re planning to go with the class. Many of these changes are based on your survey feedback, as well as common comments we witnessed monitoring the forums and social media. This took a while, because the playtest had a big turnout. We don’t usually share these numbers, but the kineticist got exactly 1,000 survey responses, and that was too fun to keep to ourselves! (There were fewer for the open response, as is typical.)

I want to hit the main changes we’re planning to make. These aren’t necessarily the final changes, as our internal testing and number-crunching might nix some of them. Also, there are many other small changes I won’t be covering here to keep things brief(ish)—some of you dropped fun little ideas that we’ll just implement, but aren’t massively important to the bigger picture of the class.



Yoon, the iconic kineticist. Sketch by Wayne Reynolds
Yoon, the iconic kineticist. Sketch by Wayne Reynolds

Main Takeaways: Overall, the class had good ratings, but not top tier. If it went in the book as-is, it would be pretty effective and fun, but we think there’s clear room for improvement to make it a standout. Respondents vastly preferred the impulses of the playtest over expressing elemental powers as spellcasting of any kind. One common refrain though, was that damage was too low, especially on many of the overflow abilities. We were pretty conservative on the playtest, and we’ll be carefully turning some of the damage up. We’re also planning to reduce the overall number of overflow impulses while dialing up their effects, keeping the trait just for those impulses that have a major effect on the battle and feel worth spending a lot of actions to do.

Though the class is intended to be pretty focused on combat, we do have some concerns about the lack of options for kineticists during exploration, downtime, and the like. We’ll be seeing what we can do to make feel less narrow in those situations. It’s yet to be determined whether that comes in the form of more skills, some specific abilities, or a mix.

Complexity vs. Simplicity: The big challenge of this class is making it simple enough that it’s accessible and fun for a new player or a player who wants to play a character with a more straightforward playstyle. Many of the classes after the Advanced Player’s Guide have needed to be more complex to convey their concept. With the kineticist, we wanted to pull this back! Attaining the variety the class needs while not adding even more rules to remember is tricky, but rest assured we want the final class to make sense for its target audience. We did have a small number of respondents who wanted many different mechanics in the class at once (like having impulses, focus spells, cantrips, AND burn), but we’re not looking to go in that direction so that we can keep things streamlined.

Our ultimate goal is to have a class that feels extremely adept with their elements or elements. They will resemble a non-spellcaster in that they have a small set of tools they’ve very strong with, but also will resemble a spellcaster in their ability to create magical effects and straightforward focus on their impulses. It’s worth noting that, because kineticists have fewer tools, some impulses will just be stronger than comparable spells. Wings of Air from the playtest was often noted as being stronger than fly, but it’s intentional that the kineticist who is fully dedicated to mastering air is better at flying than a wizard who knows many spells and simply prepares one spell slot with a fly spell.

Lack of Clarity: One of the major problems we saw frequently was confusion over the intended role of certain parts of the class. What was meant to be important? What’s more of a side benefit? We saw this in attack rolls vs. class DC, the specialty of each element, the difference between overflow impulses and other impulses, and so on. We’re looking to streamline these for the final, to introduce bigger differences and clearer paths. For one example, multiple elements having healing abilities made it a bit muddy about what “belonged” to each element. So, for the final, expect each element to have a clearer identity while still allowing enough variety to not feel too stale.

Elemental Blast: The contrast between Elemental Blasts and other impulses touches on the lack of clarity too. After seeing feedback, we’re looking at switching it to function similarly to other impulses and act more like an attack cantrip. This will likely require something similar to a spell attack roll, letting you use your Constitution for it. This has several benefits: it should let us simplify how it works, make Con clearly the best choice for your top ability score, free up kineticist characters’ ability boosts for a wider variety of characters, and still allow upgrades to the blast. This does leave some challenges, especially around a kineticist’s item loadout.

We intend to move any “use your element as a weapon” options into the Elemental Weapon feat so that still remains as an option—especially for melee kineticists. The final form of the Elemental Blast is still to be decided, since it relies on a lot of other moving parts, but we intend to keep it as a versatile option with some variety between the elements.

There was plenty of disagreement among playtesters about whether the class should be primarily a single-target damage dealer or be built around more varied effects. Much of this had to do with whether the player believed the Elemental Blast or the other impulses were the core mechanic of the class. Going all-in on single-target blasts can lead to extremely stagnant, repetitive play, so we aren’t planning to make that the sole focus. However, we will be exploring what room we have for boosting single-target damage as an option for those who want it, without making that the only role the class can fill.

Constitution?: The survey asked whether people preferred Constitution or a mental score for class DC. Though the responses wanting a mental score were quite low, there were a significant number of write-in responses that liked Con but also wanted it to be more important to the class. Looking at the issue and the target audience of the class, we’re planning to make Constitution matter a bit more so it’s the clear choice for your top ability score. This should allow more flexibility in other scores and open up a broader array of character concepts.

The change to Elemental Blast noted above is linked to this. We might also use Constitution for damage on some impulses or in certain circumstances.

Gates: We had a mixed bag of feedback about the gate options (dedicated gate, dual gate, and universal gate). Taking it as a whole, we’re currently leaning toward having a dedicated gate or dual gate option at 1st level, with class feature later on that let a kineticist either further specialize in an element they can channel or to expand to a new element. Universal gate had issues at low levels because it felt like the best option in some ways, but was also limited too severely by a small number of impulses. We think the new version will enable a story of a kineticist developing their elemental breadth over time in a more organic way, rather than locking them in tightly at level 1 with nowhere to grow.

Gathering your Element: Many playtesters noted that Gathering an Element felt like an action tax. Lots of folks equated it with drawing a weapon, which was the intended equivalent, but many people really wanted it to be more exciting, like the actions a swashbuckler can use to gain panache. There were also some mentions that it could be too much bookkeeping to track multiple elements for dual gate and universal gate—easy to forget which one you currently have gathered. The current plan for this part of kineticist play is to replace gathering an element with a process that serves a similar rules function, but has a theme that’s a bit more fun and fits the kineticist’s presentation a bit better.

Our current thinking is to have the kineticist surrounded with their kinetic aura at all times, letting their elements swirl around them. The aura doesn’t have any effect on its own—it’s just for show—though dedicated gate kineticists might get a minor benefit. To use an impulse, the kineticist directs the flowing elements with a free hand. Overflow impulses exhaust the aura, similar to expending a gathered element in the playtest. It would then take a single action to cause a resurgence from your inner gate, also granting an added benefit. This might be using a kinetic aura impulse to alter the effect of the aura, making an Elemental Blast, or a specific benefit related to an element. The final form will depend on the complexity of the other options in the class. We think this will be easier to understand, link better to other abilities within the class, and better tell the class’s story.

Manipulate Trait: There was a lot of conversation about the manipulate trait triggering Attacks of Opportunity and putting the melee kineticist in danger. This isn’t a factor in most combats, but in combats against many monsters with Attack of Opportunity, it’ll get you dead in a hurry! The discussions about this reinforced that the inclusion of concentrate and manipulate on all impulses was carried forward from how spells work... and these aren’t supposed to be just like spells! So, it’s likely the final impulses will still include concentrate, but manipulate will only appear on impulses where it’s essential to the action taking place in the story.

Burn: Burn was a hot topic, as expected! Survey feedback found that using impulses and gathering elements came out ahead, even when we combined burn and the “other” survey choice. There were plenty of votes for burn and for “other,” though, so it was far from a blowout. Fundamentally, we’re aiming at the “nonstop magic” fantasy for this class—the kineticist isn’t meant to be about long-term resource management. That means burn has to clear a pretty high bar to be included, since it pulls the class into relying more on resource management and limited-use abilities. Most suggestions we’ve seen so far for including a burn-type mechanic lead to the class feeling either too heavy on long-term planning, or too repetitive or exploitable. We’ll continue looking at possibilities as we work on the final version. It’s possible there might be a niche for implementing burn as an option for those interested, provided we find a way to make it dynamic.

More Stuff... and Less Stuff: The kineticist is a very big class, as we want each element to feel fun and distinct, and keeping it within the book’s page count is pretty difficult. As we add more elements to the class for the final version, there’s a high likelihood we’ll have to condense and trim back some other options. We’re aiming to condense down some of the overly complex bits rather than chopping whole impulses, but we might end up between a rock and a hard place, so be forewarned!


Initial Playtest and Design

We did a bit of a different process for the kineticist class design, as mentioned when I talked about James Case’s prototype kineticist character. That was part of an early playtest with the design team, Solomon St. John, and Shay Snow. Each designer made a single kineticist character. Not a list of feats, proficiencies, and all that—just the most basic playable character possible. Jason Bulmahn GMed a short adventure, and we tried out many different takes on the class! This hearkens back to the very first days of 2nd edition design, when we did something similar with a cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard based on some basic benchmarks.

How about another peek behind the curtain? Here are the elemental webs showing the strengths of the various elements. This was for the playtest version, so you’ll see some big alterations for the final as we differentiate the elements more, as mentioned above. Metal and wood were purely speculative! We didn’t write any impulses for those before the playtest.

Category Air Earth Fire Metal Water Wood Sum
Creation 2 3 3 3 3 4 18
Healing 2 2 1 1 2 3 11
Defense 1 4 2 3 2 3 15
Mobility 4 1 2 2 3 1 13
Destruction 2 3 4 3 2 2 16
Trickery 3 1 2 2 2 1 11
14 14 14 14 14 14

Kineticist Element Webs showing off the different strengths of the elements  An infographic consisting of a traditional table and several web diagrams indicating the different strengths of the elements to a kineticist


Not a Wish, Merely a Request

We’ve mentioned the inclusion of the elemental Plane of Metal and Plane of Wood. In sympathy for all this time you’ve had to spend with air, earth, fire, and water, how about a preview item from one of these elements? Enjoy a look at the damaj’s gloves, and see what you can suss out about the element, plane, and book from the multiple references in this stat block!

Damaj’s Gloves — Item 13

Evocation, Invested, Magical, Metal
Price 3,000 gp
Usage worn gloves; Bulk

This elaborate metallic webbing feels soft when wrapped around your hands and forearms. It constantly shifts its strands and connections. The name of a zuhra damaj is etched in Talican on the only part of the item that is unchanging. You gain a +3 item bonus to your Reflex DC against attempts to Disarm an item you’re holding in your hands.

Activate [two-actions] command, Interact; Frequency once per day; Requirements You’re wielding a weapon made primarily of metal; Effect You extend the weapon and call out the zuhra’s name. It channels its magic through the gloves to assist you with its choice of offense or defense (as determined by the GM). The zuhra makes any choices for the spell, and any save DC is 30.

Offense The metal of the gloves wraps around your weapon and channels the zuhra’s magic to cast a 6th-level weapon storm spell, replicating the metal weapon.

Defense The metal flows off your arms, creating a blade barrier. The blades have the appearance of your weapon. You lose the damaj’s gloves’ item bonus until the barrier ends, at which point the metal returns to your hands and forearms. You can Dismiss the activation.

The Elements of Style

As I close up this article, I’d like to throw a fond salute to our incredible corps of authors!

Rage of Elements was written by Logan Bonner, James Case, Jessica Catalan, Andrew D. Geels, Sen H.H.S., Patrick Hurley, Jason Keeley, Luis Loza, Mark Moreland, Jonathan Morgantini, AJ Neuro, Jessica Redekop, Solomon St. John, Mark Seifter, Shahreena Shahrani, Shay Snow, Levi Steadman, Mari Tokuda, Ruvaid Virk, Andrew White, and Linda Zayas-Palmer!


As I pop into a portal to transport myself to some plane beyond human ken, I want to tell you all how much we appreciate your playtesting and element slinging! There will be plenty more to explore in Rage of Elements!

Logan Bonner
Pathfinder Lead Designer

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Temperans wrote:

I don't think sonic fits. That one is too general and literally any element could can create sound. It would be like saying that only earth should do bludgeoning because its earth.

I have an easier time seeing wood and metal have acid. But honestly it might be better to keep them both as universal and then just let the player determine how their element is creating the acid/poison. I guess the same could be said for sonic.

Matching the Pathfinder energy types with the newly-expanded Pathfinder elements is about finding associations that feel natural and definitive.

Sonic would be associated with air because most sound we hear travels through the air. It is a pressure wave in the air. This association is definitive. All elements can create sound, such as the clang of metal cymbals, the crash of ocean waves, crackle of fire, the music from woodwind instruments, the whistle of the wind, or the rumble of a landslide, but since all elements do that, cteating sound does not create an association.

Some plants, such as lichen, create acid. Earth was previously associated with acid because some minerals are dry acids, but that association is weak. Metals often dissolve in acid, which feels like the opposite of an association to me.

Electricity is associated with air because lightning comes from the clouds in the sky. We associate lightning more with the sky (air) than with the clouds (water). But in modern times, we understand that metal conducts electricity, so that creates an alternative association. Fire heated to the point of ionization forms plasma, which is yet another alternative association, and in Avatar: The Last Airbender some firebenders could also manipulate lightning. Only earth and wood seem to have no connection to electricity. Which association we would consider definitive is based on which flavor of fantasy we want.

The issue is that we storytellers want damage from an elemental attack to be a type of physical or energy damage intimately related to the properties of the element rather than bludgeoning damage from being hit by a lump of the element. But the most damage types don't match the elemental types in a way that tells a clear story, except for fire damage with fire and cold damage with ice (water).


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This analysis is pure gold, thank you so much for the transparency and care you show us!


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I have been pondering the storytelling elements of associating damage types to kineticist elements. The issue simplified down to what the players say if they are describing their actions.

An elementalist wizard casting a Lightning spell via his mastery of air can say, "I call down lightning from the sky, It arcs down to my hand and across the battlefield through my enemies." But a kineticist would call forth lightning from his Gathered Element rather than the sky. Saying "Lightning arcs out from my aura of fire!" sounds arbitrary rather than natural.

A fire kineticist can say, "My aura of fire shoots out a bolt of fire. Take 10 fire damage," or "My aura of fire belches out toxic smoke. Take 10 poison damage."

A water kineticist can say, "My aura of water shoots out a mist that coalesces into freezing snowflakes. Take 10 cold damage," or "My aura of water surges out like crash of ocean waves. Take 10 bludgeoning damage."

A wood kineticist can say, "My aura of wood shoots out wooden darts whose surface glistens with acid. Take 5 piercing damage and 5 acid damage," Or "Sprouts of renewing vines reach from my aura of wood. Take 10 positive damage, zombie."

A metal kineticist can say, "My aura of metal shoots out metal flechettes. Take 10 slashing damage," or "My aura of metal shaped into anodes and cathodes sparking with electricity. Take 10 electricity damage."

An earth kineticist can say, "My aura of earch throws rocks. Take 10 bludgeoning damage," or "This time the rocks are sharp. Take 10 piercing damage."

An air kineticist can say, "My aura of air sounds a trumpet blast. Take 10 sonic damage," or "A gust of wind from my aura of air lifts you up and tosses you onto the ground. Take 20 feet of falling damage." (Nyah, nayh, I have Catfall.)


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Mathmuse I understand that it is about storytelling. But it is also about tradition and symbolism.

Sound is an energy type that relies of matter not air. Air just so happens to be the easy medium to transmit sound for us humans, but that is way too reductionist. It ignores creatures who rely on SONAR (Sound Navigation and Ranging), creatures who rely on tremorsense (which is sound), sound generated from light (fiber optics), etc.

Not to mention that we already have the good lord of the Air plane be a lightning elemental. So narratively making Air kineticist related to sounds doesn't make sense.

I also don't care what so ever what it was like in Avatar or how the science of it works IRL. Kineticist is a class that is all about the connection with fictional planes letting you control matter related to those planes. IRL science matter in knowing how the elements would behave when controlled. The cosmology and logic of non-Golarion settings is completely and utherly meaningless to Golarion as anything more than inspiration.

********

Regarding acid I agree that there is no direct connection to any specific element, which is why I said that it along with poison are better off being universal as opposed to tied to a specific element. Kineticist doesn't have a connection to acid while poison was spread between wood (create/remove), air (remove), fire (remove), and universal (all your blasts are toxic). So why tie it down now?

*********

Regarding the way you describe the blast being important I agree. But I disagree with the damage types you picked.

Air kineticist can say thay they send a blast of electricity from their fingers. Or they launch a bullet of air at the opponent.

Water kineticist slash at the opponent with water, or bombard them with a flurry of hail.

Earth can have you rip a piece of the ground and lauch it at the enemy, or you can say you formed a ball of earth and threw it like a baseball.

Metal is basically the same as earth but less crumbly.

Fire could say they breath a fireball. But they could also say they vent light into a deadly ray of fire.

Wood can have you throw darts, slicing flowers, tangled balls of roots, etc.

Aether is throwing ammunition or reinforcing other elements.

Void is warping gravity around the target, or throwing a mass of negative energy.

Silver Crusade

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Sonic stuff is always paired with Wind/Air types/elements in pretty much every media I can think of, just because something can make sound doesn't give it a claim on it.


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I don't think the Kineticist really needs access to sonic damage, just like it doesn't need access to mental damage or force damage. You're accessing the elemental planes, so everything fundamental to one of those (fire, lightning, etc.) is fair game, but ancillary things are probably not needed.

Like the Telekineticist and Geokineticists were my favorites, but I'm okay with waiting for the telekineticist (you could do variants for the six inner planes too, but I'm not sure there's a need) and the latter doesn't need acid damage- just give it back piercing and slashing sometimes.


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Part of the issue is that elemental monk stuff has already paired air with electricity damage.


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In pathfinder air has always been lighting, I have no idea where the idea against it came from.


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I'd prefer Air get Lightning, but I also understand that it's harder to find a second fitting damage type for Fire than it is for Air. I'm personally fond of Poison to represent smoke, and I've also heard the argument for Bludgeoning to represent the impacts that come off of explosions or roaring flame, but both feel less intuitive to me than just ripping off ATLA (where lightning was an advanced discipline of Fire).

I'd quite like for Acid to be an option somewhere, and don't particularly care where - my goal would be reflavoring it to be a mastery of, say, Vishkanya venom, rather than elemental magic at all.


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If a dual gate is a thing you can have at level one, I wonder if some of the alternative damage types can be spread across two elements.

Like Acid to me makes the most sense as water/wood, and lightning as fire/air, with cold as water/air.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

If a dual gate is a thing you can have at level one, I wonder if some of the alternative damage types can be spread across two elements.

Like Acid to me makes the most sense as water/wood, and lightning as fire/air, with cold as water/air.

The number of combinations makes my head spin a little, but I'm happy for however we get the maximum number of damage types on this class. If the Kineticist doesn't have access to Cold or Lightning, I wonder why we have a Kineticist at all.


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Well, there's 6*5 combinations of two elements, and we don't have 30 damage types. But not every combination needs an additional damage type. If I'm going Earth/Metal or Earth/Wood it's because I love defense not because I'm craving new and different ways to attack people.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'd make it so every kineticist was a single element kineticist as a base.

Then, they could expand into a thematically appropriate sub-elements via class feats. If they want multiple base elements to become a dual gat or tri gate or quad gate kineticist, make an archetype for that.

At least that way, the developers could balance the class against itself far more easily.

I would also make strange, non-elemental choices, such as aether or void, into their own class archetypes.


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Ravingdork wrote:

I'd make it so every kineticist was a single element kineticist as a base.

Then, they could expand into a thematically appropriate sub-elements via class feats. If they want multiple base elements to become a dual gat or tri gate or quad gate kineticist, make an archetype for that.

At least that way, the developers could balance the class against itself far more easily.

I would also make strange, non-elemental choices, such as aether or void, into their own class archetypes.

I’m still hopeful that they’ll create another impulse using class (which I’ve termed the “Screw You in Particular” class) with a single target focus using the non-elemental choices.

Also, regarding my list above, while I’d prefer those as the base choices, I see no particular reason why other elements can’t borrow from one another for their impulses. If lightning/sonic/acid/poison are associated with multiple elements…then let multiple elements have abilities that access that energy type.

As someone said, it makes no sense for Earth to have a monopoly on bludgeoning, why assume fire would have a monopoly on electricity damage just because it gets it as a blast?

As far as alternatives for fire’s secondary blast, I don’t think much has been done with radiation damage, even though it exists as a type.


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Radiation is weird and strange. Sometimes its phrased as a corruption, but othertimes not. It is very heat intensive, but then the whole thing is about earth not fire. I can see Radiation being the hybrid for earth and metal.

Also yeah having single element expandable later is a lot easier to balance than having multiple elements from the start. No idea why they aren't doing it like that, maybe because of how they want to do the archetype?

Aether and Void should 100% still be elements and it would be incredibly bad if they don't return as elements. The fact Aether is not a base element from the start but metal is being made into its own really makes me question the logic.

Also yeah there really is no need for every combinarion to have its own damage type. In fact hybrid blasts shouldn't be unlocking damage types just combining the damage types used for the base blast. Ex: Air's Electric Blast + Water's Water Blast == Charged Water Blast, or Fire's Fire Blast + Earth's Earth Blast == Magma/Lava Blast.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Temperans wrote:

Radiation is weird and strange. Sometimes its phrased as a corruption, but othertimes not. It is very heat intensive, but then the whole thing is about earth not fire. I can see Radiation being the hybrid for earth and metal.

Also yeah having single element expandable later is a lot easier to balance than having multiple elements from the start. No idea why they aren't doing it like that, maybe because of how they want to do the archetype?

Aether and Void should 100% still be elements and it would be incredibly bad if they don't return as elements. The fact Aether is not a base element from the start but metal is being made into its own really makes me question the logic.

Also yeah there really is no need for every combinarion to have its own damage type. In fact hybrid blasts shouldn't be unlocking damage types just combining the damage types used for the base blast. Ex: Air's Electric Blast + Water's Water Blast == Charged Water Blast, or Fire's Fire Blast + Earth's Earth Blast == Magma/Lava Blast.

I really just want dual gate to just only be combined blasts rather than individual blasts. *So earth and water is always mud.* it just makes things easier.


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I always wanted to play a single target acidblaster in pf2e and I really hope that rage of elements will finally give me that option. I don't care the slightest bit about control, support and AoE, I just want to blast acid every turn like Octavia in kingmaker and be as powerful and accurate as an archer. But the playtest analysis makes me worried that the final version will still be way too much of a generalist to fulfill this fantasy and have caster accuracy (just without true strike or any buff spells).

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
_shredder_ wrote:
I always wanted to play a single target acidblaster in pf2e and I really hope that rage of elements will finally give me that option. I don't care the slightest bit about control, support and AoE, I just want to blast acid every turn like Octavia in kingmaker and be as powerful and accurate as an archer. But the playtest analysis makes me worried that the final version will still be way too much of a generalist to fulfill this fantasy and have caster accuracy (just without true strike or any buff spells).

I too would love this fantasy.

Also doing the same with electricity, sonic, cold.


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The unhappy downside of having every blast available at level 1 is that the rest of your abilities are still based on gate. The upshot of this comes when it comes time to pick your other impulses. Given that we already know Kineticist is pushing its size budget, it seems like it would be very difficult to publish 1-20 I vocations for every specific damage type.

I still argue that level 1 every Kineticist should be able to pull the element damage they want, whether it's bludgeoning with mass or shooting ice/elec/acid from their hands, but after that we probably can't expect to get to level 20 without needing to pick an invocation which uses another type within their element (lighting user learns a whirlwind invocation, ice blaster picks up some water technique) unless we instead expect a huge bulk of the class to be just padding out an invocation at every level for every sub-element.

That said, perhaps we will be lucky and have a few of those have meaningful choices at most levels. For me, ice and elec are the most significant sub-elements who want to hyperfocus to achieve a particular character theme, while I can for now take or leave others. I confess I don't think I could see that much page space being available for pure available acid blasts since I'm not even sure which gate would most likely have acid powers, but who knows I would love to be proven wrong when it comes to element powered characters


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Well, there's 6*5 combinations of two elements, and we don't have 30 damage types. But not every combination needs an additional damage type. If I'm going Earth/Metal or Earth/Wood it's because I love defense not because I'm craving new and different ways to attack people.

Just a mathematical quibble, but the calculation is (6*5)/2 because the order of the two elements is irrelevant. Air and Water is the same as Water and Air. We do have more than 15 damage types, but some of them, such as good damage, evil damage, and mental damage, sound very non-elemental. Throwing out the damage types unrelated to elemental matter leaves fewer than 15.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mathmuse wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Well, there's 6*5 combinations of two elements, and we don't have 30 damage types. But not every combination needs an additional damage type. If I'm going Earth/Metal or Earth/Wood it's because I love defense not because I'm craving new and different ways to attack people.
Just a mathematical quibble, but the calculation is (6*5)/2 because the order of the two elements is irrelevant. Air and Water is the same as Water and Air. We do have more than 15 damage types, but some of them, such as good damage, evil damage, and mental damage, sound very non-elemental. Throwing out the damage types unrelated to elemental matter leaves fewer than 15.

How fitting for mathmuse to be the one to point that out, haha, thank you


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Temperans wrote:
Aether and Void should 100% still be elements and it would be incredibly bad if they don't return as elements. The fact Aether is not a base element from the start but metal is being made into its own really makes me question the logic.

Metal and Wood are core elements in the Wuxing tradition (alongside Fire, Earth, and Water), a philosophy that’s thousands of years old. It seems Paizo wanted to open Parhfinder up to some cosmologies less informed by the Greeks, which I find terribly exciting.

Aether and Void don’t have elemental planes, which the 2e Kineticist’s identity seems firmly married to, so you’ll likely be waiting quite a while for their return. If you’re jonesing to play a Telekine, then the Distant Grasp Psychic is brand new and quite fun.


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keftiu wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Aether and Void should 100% still be elements and it would be incredibly bad if they don't return as elements. The fact Aether is not a base element from the start but metal is being made into its own really makes me question the logic.

Metal and Wood are core elements in the Wuxing tradition (alongside Fire, Earth, and Water), a philosophy that’s thousands of years old. It seems Paizo wanted to open Parhfinder up to some cosmologies less informed by the Greeks, which I find terribly exciting.

Aether and Void don’t have elemental planes, which the 2e Kineticist’s identity seems firmly married to, so you’ll likely be waiting quite a while for their return. If you’re jonesing to play a Telekine, then the Distant Grasp Psychic is brand new and quite fun.

I reject any notion that IRL Philosophies should dictate what a class that already exists in Golarion lore should do. Specially when that philosophy already existed in universe and the class still didn't work that way, so to me it reads like pandering and being different for the sake of being different. Also going down that path only leads to madness and religious zealotry of "but what about my religion" and "how dare you do things my religion doesn't like", that whole logic is just a huge pain that should be left to homebrew.

Also, no Psychic does not do what a proper Aetherkineticist is able to do. To even try comparing is just plain silly given how much more versatile Aether Kineticist is than just "being telekinetic".

Its the equivalent of telling someone that wants Fire Kineticist to go play Fire Sorcerer instead. Even just the idea of it makes me sick.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Adding new options to the game isn't really "pandering" it's just adding new things.


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Temperans wrote:
I reject any notion that IRL Philosophies should dictate what a class that already exists in Golarion lore should do. Specially when that philosophy already existed in universe and the class still didn't work that way, so to me it reads like pandering and being different for the sake of being different. Also going down that path only leads to madness and religious zealotry of "but what about my religion" and "how dare you do things my religion doesn't like", that whole logic is just a huge pain that should be left to homebrew.

Pandering to who, exactly?

And how is including a 2,000 year-old Chinese elemental system more of a risk of "madness and religious zealotry" than using an ancient Greek one?

Quote:
Its the equivalent of telling someone that wants Fire Kineticist to go play Fire Sorcerer instead. Even just the idea of it makes me sick.

We're talking about a game where people pretend to be goblins. If you're reacting that strongly to the idea of a gentle, good-faith suggestion, I might recommend stepping away from the computer for a little bit.


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Squiggit wrote:
Adding new options to the game isn't really "pandering" it's just adding new things.
I meant the way Keftiu phrased it where they said
Quote:
It seems Paizo wanted to open Parhfinder up to some cosmologies less informed by the Greeks, which I find terribly exciting.

Like I said the chinese style was already a thing before, it was just not how Kineticist worked (intead going with the 6 inner planes + ethereal plane). Which is not the western style, althought it is similar.


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I look forward to learning more about how the Wood and Metal planes fit into the cosmology when Rage of Elements actually comes out. Phytokineticists were a thing in PF1 (at that time they drew power from the First World/PEP), and that one was more canonical than the Chaokineticist by virtue of appearing in a hardback (Ultimate Wilderness). If you're bringing Wood into the official set, it makes sense to bring Metal in with it too since that's what it gets paired with IRL.

There are 12 inner planes (6 elemental, PEP, NEP, Astral, Shadow, Ethereal, and The First World) so doing 6 with the Kineticist and maybe doing the other 6 later seems feasible.

Dark Archive

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Temperans wrote:

I reject any notion that IRL Philosophies should dictate what a class that already exists in Golarion lore should do. Specially when that philosophy already existed in universe and the class still didn't work that way, so to me it reads like pandering and being different for the sake of being different. Also going down that path only leads to madness and religious zealotry of "but what about my religion" and "how dare you do things my religion doesn't like", that whole logic is just a huge pain that should be left to homebrew.

Also, no Psychic does not do what a proper Aetherkineticist is able to do. To even try comparing is just plain silly given how much more versatile Aether Kineticist is than just "being telekinetic".

Its the equivalent of telling someone that wants Fire Kineticist to go play Fire Sorcerer instead. Even just the idea of it makes me sick.

If irl philosophies shouldn't affect rules then there's no reason for the class to stick to the primarily Greek model that it has currently. If including any reference to irl religions leads to 'madness and zealotry' (which, lets be honest is a frankly ridiculous argument) then that's already the case, the game is full of irl religious references and options (the Osiriani Pantheon says hi!)

It's a game. It has both irl and entirely made up religious elements in it, not only have storywise the elemental planes undergone some serious changes on the divine level by this point, but simply on mechanics there may have very well been a lot learned since the PF1 kineticist that could lead to a more fun class in 2e for the majority of players, fun and playability should trump any 'sacred cows' from PF1.

Might it 'make you sick'... honestly no, I don't think so. I can only assume that was a vast overreaction to a quite harmless suggestion. If you were being genuine and the idea of someone suggesting a different class as an option literally makes you sick I strongly recommend considering how you relate to the game and perhaps talking to someone who might be able to offer some different views and advice.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Richard Lowe wrote:
then that's already the case, the game is full of irl religious references and options (the Osiriani Pantheon says hi!)

In fairness, the Osiriani pantheon is often one of the first things people bring up when they talk about stuff in PF that makes them roll their eyes a bit.

Though also not really a problem here since from what we've seen so far the new planes are still very much their own thing and very golarion.

Grand Lodge

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Temperans wrote:
It’s the equivalent of telling someone that wants Fire Kineticist to go play Fire Sorcerer instead. Even just the idea of it makes me sick.

Please do something else that doesn’t make you ill. No hobby is worth your health and wellbeing.


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If you think the Planes of Metal and Wood are "pandering" because they resemble something from Earth, you may want to sit down before reading about Golarion's continents.

Liberty's Edge

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Excellent analysis and directions to go. I did not get the feel to participate in the playtest, but it does sound like many lessons were studied and taken. That's great.

I think the damage type topic will be addressed. If they did not consider it before, just reading through this thread shows the importance it has to people who love the class.

And finally, a personal thank you for "They will resemble a non-spellcaster in that they have a small set of tools they’ve very strong with".

The Martial/Caster dichotomy being a fundamental design choice, on par with Nat 20 = crit success, Nat 1 = crit failure, rather than a bug should close so many Casters vs Martials arguments.

Liberty's Edge

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Also, I wish for the return of Burn. But as an archetype open to all classes. Hurting yourself to ensure you succeed against all odds should not be tied to elemental power.


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TBH for me the easiest way to do burn would just be an option like the Psychic's strain mind. A feat that lets you hurt yourself to improve your game flow, entirely opt-in, but pretty awesome when you get to use it. Doesn't require a ton of overhead either.


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Squiggit wrote:
TBH for me the easiest way to do burn would just be an option like the Psychic's strain mind. A feat that lets you hurt yourself to improve your game flow, entirely opt-in, but pretty awesome when you get to use it. Doesn't require a ton of overhead either.

I adore this Feat and would gladly see more like it.

Liberty's Edge

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For the damage types, I think we could safely go with what you can encounter in the planes themselves. I don't have my planar books here, but their content should give good clues.

Also IIRC Wood is growth while Metal is decay. So positive and negative damage could be a thing for these.


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Squiggit wrote:
TBH for me the easiest way to do burn would just be an option like the Psychic's strain mind. A feat that lets you hurt yourself to improve your game flow, entirely opt-in, but pretty awesome when you get to use it. Doesn't require a ton of overhead either.

Unless they terribly overdo it. 'Blood component substitution' was so bad I won't ever take it because 2xSpell Level damage is terribly high for a 6 HP class, but with the 'Strain mind' they outdid themselves, 4xSpell Level for a 6 HP class! Just no way it's worth that and a feat slot. It's about 1/5th of all HP.


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Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
I still argue that level 1 every Kineticist should be able to pull the element damage they want, whether it's bludgeoning with mass or shooting ice/elec/acid from their hands, but after that we probably can't expect to get to level 20 without needing to pick an invocation which uses another type within their element (lighting user learns a whirlwind invocation, ice blaster picks up some water technique) unless we instead expect a huge bulk of the class to be just padding out an invocation at every level for every sub-element.

You can do it with a single feat.

- "Elemental Tuning: pick a damage type from the following list. All of your kineticist invocations that deal non-physical damage now deal that damage type instead of their standard damage type."

Offer that feat at level 1, and you're done. As far as I'm aware, balance should be largely non-problematic, as most energy damage types are roughly equivalent in power level, and they can easily just leave off the list the few (force, alignment, positive/negative) that aren't. The aesthetics might be a bit odd in some cases, but that's really just a matter of letting the player pick and choose what feels right to them. Possibly make the thing uncommon, so that GMs can also decide that, no, you're not allowed to make walls of sonic damage in this particular game.

It would let people construct the fantasy that they want, at minimal page cost, and basically no balance threat. What's not to like?

Okay. It's maybe not quite that simple. If most invocations are doing a physical damage type, then there may need to be a way to turn those into energy damage of the correct variety (possibly a level 6 follow-on feat that lets you decide at time of casting whether to use your chosen energy damage type or the original physical damage type) and I'm sure that there's something finicky about balance that I personally will have missed, but it's close.


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Please don't force physical damage on non-fire kineticists. Let us blast actual energy right from level 1, every turn. Give us the option to play a 100% cold focused water kineticist who never deals boring bludgeoning damage and lightning, poison and acid options for air/metal, wood and earth. Blasting acid sounds just a million times more awesome to me than throwing rocks around.

I also hope that the differences between the elements aren't that big. I'm pretty much only interested in destruction but find fire thematically less interesting than all other elements, so I hope water, wood or air will also be able to deal decent damage and don't shoehorn you into a specific playstyle.


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_shredder_ wrote:
Please don't force physical damage on non-fire kineticists. Let us blast actual energy right from level 1, every turn. Give us the option to play a 100% cold focused water kineticist who never deals boring bludgeoning damage and lightning, poison and acid options for air/metal, wood and earth. Blasting acid sounds just a million times more awesome to me than throwing rocks around.

That was partly what inspired the choices I made in my list. I wanted at least 1 physical and 1 energy damage for each element, except fire and earth that get all energy and all physical respectively.

Temperans wrote:
Like I said the chinese style was already a thing before, it was just not how Kineticist worked (intead going with the 6 inner planes + ethereal plane). Which is not the western style, althought it is similar.

I've no particular need to hew closely to what the kineticist did in PF1. It's similar mechanics enabling similar characters, but it is coming from a very different narrative path, and so options will by necessity be different.

The Raven Black wrote:
Also IIRC Wood is growth while Metal is decay. So positive and negative damage could be a thing for these.

I personally dislike this idea, but it could be done. I'd rather these ideas be represented by what kinds of invocations each element gets, like wood going heavy on healing and creation, while metal going heavier on destruction.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Also IIRC Wood is growth while Metal is decay. So positive and negative damage could be a thing for these.
I personally dislike this idea, but it could be done. I'd rather these ideas be represented by what kinds of invocations each element gets, like wood going heavy on healing and creation, while metal going heavier on destruction.

I'm the opposite. Obviously we still haven't seen the lore yet, but I think it'd be cool if metal and wood were the elemental representations of negative/positive energy.


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looks at negative energy and gravity

Yeah I don't see metal having that unless they manage to make a really convincing lore for it.

Wood having positive is already a thing, although they would have to change the justification to make it work with the new plane.


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That was very exciting to read and also really excited for when the book comes out. Will there be new tags for Wood and Metal elements then? What about old spells/abilities/feats? Will they be adjusted? Or will Plant be the new legacy of Wood?

In depictions and writings on Wuxing, Wood also encompassed elements from Wind and Lightning. The energy of life (qi) shown as electricity or lightning. Also, wind is connected to spirit and breath (for example, the Greek word Pneuma) which the waving of the trees indicated wind. In Pathfinder, life energy is specifically the Positive Plane.

I was wondering how Negative plane can connect, but I guess Paizo also described the plane of Metal as also the place of Rust and decay-over-time. I wonder if this is an elemental plane that is much more closer to the Negative Plane in that case. Could also tie into how the Metal plane and constructs are closer to unlife like zombies than life. It's also interesting because of the Yin/Yang dynamic. In a way, I wonder if Metal/Wood would represent Yin/Yang of lightning, which Negative/Positive tags might fit with that.

Regardless, I'm really excited to see how they expand it out. I'm really loving the diversity that they're including as it makes the world feel much more fresh and immersive.


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Personally I am hoping that each element gets access to at least two damage types to help pyrokinetics deal with their immunity problem.

I don't care what their second damage type is though force makes sense if you equate fire with exploaions and pressure waves like I do.


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Errenor wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
TBH for me the easiest way to do burn would just be an option like the Psychic's strain mind. A feat that lets you hurt yourself to improve your game flow, entirely opt-in, but pretty awesome when you get to use it. Doesn't require a ton of overhead either.
Unless they terribly overdo it. 'Blood component substitution' was so bad I won't ever take it because 2xSpell Level damage is terribly high for a 6 HP class, but with the 'Strain mind' they outdid themselves, 4xSpell Level for a 6 HP class! Just no way it's worth that and a feat slot. It's about 1/5th of all HP.

You're more squeamish there than needed, I think. Spell level goes up every two levels and there's also ancestry HP, so a reasonably average low/medium/high HP spread would be 42/50/58 for Lv 6 (+0/1/2 Con), and 90/104/~118 for Lv 12 (+1/2/~3 Con), without including Toughness for +Lv HP or other ways to invest in that resource.

Strain Mind is 12 damage at its level, which is a fair bit proportionally (closer to 1/4), but less than the usual Strike from even a weak enemy and quite possibly less than half of a limited-use area effect you might get caught in. It's necessarily saved for later in a fight, and the equivalent of an extra focus point could certainly be worth it given how potent some amped cantrips are. At Lv 12 it's 24 damage, but you have more resources for that to not be a significant problem, and as a backline caster in either case you ideally avoid most of the heat and have backups for your healing needs, or you have bigger problems than Strain Mind being risky.

Since Sorcerers have the same HP calculation and take half or less of the damage, you can hopefully see where blood components are close to a pittance by then, likely avoiding much more damage in reprisals than incurred. Strain Mind is always a significant chunk, but a frequently worthwhile one with careful use. (And with Toughness, average ancestry HP, and Constitution focus starting with 12/14, the HP is more like 62/68 for Lv 6, and 128/140. HP investment goes a pretty long way over time, and you could technically go even higher, though I certainly wouldn't recommend it.)

Liberty's Edge

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Can't Wait!!!


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I wish Fire had more of a focus on healing. Why do they have a three on Creation while also having 4 on Destruction? What can they create with **fire**?


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MrVauxs wrote:
What can they create with **fire**?

Bread, clay pots, metalwork of all kinds, blown glass, etc.

It's a lot easier to make something with the deliberate application of fire than it is to heal something with fire.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I mean, those are all things that are created via an application of heat, but I'm not sure they'd really be things you create with a spontaneous application of pyrokinesis.

I would be very surprised if pyrokinetics get an impulse that generates bread.


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We are going to get impulses for specific combinations of impulses right?

So I could see a fire+earth thing to make glass or harden clay, a fire+metal to do metalwork, and a fire+wood to make bread.

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