Dark Archive Playtest: The Unknown Beckons

When I have initially seen that the new classes are going to be the psychic and the thaumaturge I was like "psychic? meh! GO THAUMATURGE!".

Now after having read the playtest I feel the exact opposite. Psychic looks AMAZING! Never thought I am going to be so excited by another caster, but here we are. It is very unique, it is flavourfull, it oozes with options that are on point. It's design is incredible. Other than missing the perception increase to expert I feel like the class could be released in its current state and I would be fine with it!

Then we have the thaumaturge. I don't know, maybe I had unrealistic expectations to begin with, but I feel like I am unimpressed with it. It's weird, which I believe is a good thing in this case, but also makes me have mixed feelings about the class. It's weird to have a martial with a class boost not to STR or DEX. It's weird that the abilities are based on Charisma, especially using Charisma for recalling knowledge. It is weird that most of the features are equipment-flavoured but are actually not related to the actual equipment of the character. But yeah, we've already had this kind of features in the past. The basic class features feel like it's an occult ranger and the huge damage boost only offsets the lower STR/DEX the char will have because of the class ability boost. It's weird that the class flavour is "uses different kinds of equipment to create magical effects" but it doesn't get Trick Magic Item to begin with. Implements feel underwhelming to me. Again, I expected so much more but I was probably expecting too much. I am not saying that the class is bad, but it doesn't resonate with me, I guess.

When I have initially seen that the new classes are going to be the psychic and the thaumaturge I was like "psychic? meh! GO THAUMATURGE!".

Now after having read the playtest I feel the exact opposite. Psychic looks AMAZING! Never thought I am going to be so excited by another caster, but here we are. It is very unique, it is flavourfull, it oozes with options that are on point. It's design is incredible. Other than missing the perception increase to expert I feel like the class could be released in its current state and I would be fine with it!

Then we have the thaumaturge. I don't know, maybe I had unrealistic expectations to begin with, but I feel like I am unimpressed with it. It's weird, which I believe is a good thing in this case, but also makes me have mixed feelings about the class. It's weird to have a martial with a class boost not to STR or DEX. It's weird that the abilities are based on Charisma, especially using Charisma for recalling knowledge. It is weird that most of the features are equipment-flavoured but are actually not related to the actual equipment of the character. But yeah, we've already had this kind of features in the past. The basic class features feel like it's an occult ranger and the huge damage boost only offsets the lower STR/DEX the char will have because of the class ability boost. It's weird that the class flavour is "uses different kinds of equipment to create magical effects" but it doesn't get Trick Magic Item to begin with. Implements feel underwhelming to me. Again, I expected so much more but I was probably expecting too much. I am not saying that the class is bad, but it doesn't resonate with me, I guess.

Yeah I guess it would be better with two paths the recall knowledge and the trick item one. Recall knowledge giving a damage boost to strikes and trick giving to magic attacks

One thing I forgot to mention is I also have mixed feelings about Thaumaturge having to use a single one-handed weapon, because he needs the other to hold the implement or free. I don't think 2H weapons would be a flavour home run in this case, but I hope one of the implements in the final version is a shield, so that the class can at least go sword and board. Seeing how weapon implement grants a kind of AoO, the shield could probably grant a Shield Block reaction.

One thing I forgot to mention is I also have mixed feelings about Thaumaturge having to use a single one-handed weapon, because he needs the other to hold the implement or free. I don't think 2H weapons would be a flavour home run in this case, but I hope one of the implements in the final version is a shield, so that the class can at least go sword and board. Seeing how weapon implement grants a kind of AoO, the shield could probably grant a Shield Block reaction.

I mean the amulet kind of grants you a better shield block. I would like an "raise implement" since the +2 is undead lacking from it.

So a couple of random, first impression thoughts that crossed my mind in my first reading. (I won't get to make more informed commentary this week, as it's my turn in the GM barrel at our PFS night this week. :) ) No particular order really.

- I am a fan of the concepts of the Psychic, it definitely separates them more from the Sorcerer than they were in 1E. (Doesn't hurt that out of the playtest box I can build a better homage to River Tam from Firefly than I did in 1E, so there's that.) Without having spent time on the balance details or such, I AM finding it jarring that only SOME of the cantrip slots of the character can be amped... First impression says to me, "Why aren't they all amp-able, why make me track which ones can and can't, you could still pre-choose appropriate ones for the subclass choice but let people use feat-driven amp's on any of their cantrips?"

- Thaumaturge stole the Talisman Dabbler feat ability without making it commit to an archetype. So called this, and actually quite glad, though the whole half-level thing STILL makes this a bad choice (based on current available talismans, anyhow) in later levels... perhaps Absalom book with its market section will fix this feeling (which extends past this particular Thaumaturge choice, it's even moreso the Dedication that I feel that is an issue for.)

- Kinda sad to have Psychics be just as obvious in casting as others, but that's a game balance item and I'm not willing to push on that idea. i expect in the full version they will get access to the conceal spell stuff other casters can invest in, those clearly don't need playtesting. :)

- Related, my first reading of Thaumaturge felt a little bad about the lack of utility choices vs combat choices, but this is just a Playtest... this way they can focus on the parts that need balancing (ie combat) and the utility can be worked in later based on what space is left in the design, so I'm not TOO concerned there.

- +1'ing the Perception item for Psychics, are they just too distracted by the thoughts and emotions around them to ever improve Perception, or is this an oversight? Seems odd to not at least get Expert EVENTUALLY.

- Not gonna lie, I squealed out loud at 'Scroll Thaumaturgy' as a first level feat. Excepting for how brutal scroll costs are at very low levels (where I will be able to test, since I am either PFSing or GMing, so no higher options for me this test), this might be my go-to concept for a Thaumaturgist if I can get time to run one.

- Related, can we add a version of Trick Magic Item as a class feat, so we can choose to use EITHER skill or class feats to go that route, in a final version? I don't think baking it in is a good balance choice (you'd have to take something away somewhere I expect) but just being able to flex that in seems like a good compromise. Not a lot of word count needed even, just point them back to the CRB feat of the same name.

Well, there's some basic thoughts on first read. Hopefully late next week I will have some actual play experience to work with. Happy playtesting!

GGSigmar wrote:

One thing I forgot to mention is I also have mixed feelings about Thaumaturge having to use a single one-handed weapon, because he needs the other to hold the implement or free. I don't think 2H weapons would be a flavour home run in this case, but I hope one of the implements in the final version is a shield, so that the class can at least go sword and board. Seeing how weapon implement grants a kind of AoO, the shield could probably grant a Shield Block reaction.

I mean the amulet kind of grants you a better shield block. I would like an "raise implement" since the +2 is undead lacking from it.

Touche`

oholoko wrote:

GGSigmar wrote:

One thing I forgot to mention is I also have mixed feelings about Thaumaturge having to use a single one-handed weapon, because he needs the other to hold the implement or free. I don't think 2H weapons would be a flavour home run in this case, but I hope one of the implements in the final version is a shield, so that the class can at least go sword and board. Seeing how weapon implement grants a kind of AoO, the shield could probably grant a Shield Block reaction.

I mean the amulet kind of grants you a better shield block. I would like an "raise implement" since the +2 is undead lacking from it.

Touche`

Also indeed not undead. But I would also love if you actually called a spirit/undead to give the AC.

Pouring one out for two iconics I liked a bunch.

New ones look nice.

As of today, I finally took the time to learn how to pronounce thaumaturge as I cannot recall hearing said aloud before. :P

Both look like they'll be interesting additions to the table.

Pouring one out for two iconics I liked a bunch.

New ones look nice.

Which two iconics were replaced?

Interesting. This blog was posted yesterday. When I checked for blog posts last night, this one said it was posted "11 seconds ago". About a half hour ago, I checked here again, and it was still posted "11 seconds ago". Then I went off and did something else (quit my browser in fact) and just now started it up again and came here — and this blog was still posted "11 seconds ago".

WTF?

H.P. Makelovecraft wrote:

Pouring one out for two iconics I liked a bunch.

New ones look nice.

Which two iconics were replaced?

Psychic and Occultist

Interesting. This blog was posted yesterday. When I checked for blog posts last night, this one said it was posted "11 seconds ago". About a half hour ago, I checked here again, and it was still posted "11 seconds ago". Then I went off and did something else (quit my browser in fact) and just now started it up again and came here — and this blog was still posted "11 seconds ago".

WTF?

I have this problem since I've joined this site like 2 years ago? Anyways, it always says "x seconds ago" for posts no older than 1 day.

Yeah, I think the upgrade awhile back caused it. Used to work for the most part and then things got jumbled.

There better be some Rivani art in the book.

I was excited to see the psychic, as it was one of my favourite classes in 1e, but I think I actually like the thaumaturge more now I've seen it.

Ed Reppert wrote:

Interesting. This blog was posted yesterday. When I checked for blog posts last night, this one said it was posted "11 seconds ago". About a half hour ago, I checked here again, and it was still posted "11 seconds ago". Then I went off and did something else (quit my browser in fact) and just now started it up again and came here — and this blog was still posted "11 seconds ago".

WTF?

I have this problem since I've joined this site like 2 years ago? Anyways, it always says "x seconds ago" for posts no older than 1 day.

Ah, same.

I'm just now realizing it might be a bug and not following some system of internal refreshes or something. Huh.

Might be a bug. Maybe it's a feature. :-)

So, having just given the playtest document a cursory glance, here are a few of my first impressions on the classes:

The 1e iconics are not lost to us. They have simply moved on to other ventures. I'm sure we'll see them again. For now, it's not goodbye, but good journey.

So, having just given the playtest document a cursory glance, here are a few of my first impressions on the classes:

** spoiler omitted **...

I want a tome implement, and a chime/gong/bell implement, so I can run a "bell, book, and candle" witchwife thaumaturge with cat familiar and a penchant for plants and animal talismans, one that lets the locals think she's a witch when in truth she's more of an investigator of the unknown who makes it her job to deal with the things that go bump in the night and that come from Beyond to prey upon those she's oathbound to protect, even as they fear and scorn her.

The 1e iconics are not lost to us. They have simply moved on to other ventures. I'm sure we'll see them again. For now, it's not goodbye, but good journey.

I know the creative team strives to use their art in the class descriptions as sample variants.

Ed Reppert wrote:

Interesting. This blog was posted yesterday. When I checked for blog posts last night, this one said it was posted "11 seconds ago". About a half hour ago, I checked here again, and it was still posted "11 seconds ago". Then I went off and did something else (quit my browser in fact) and just now started it up again and came here — and this blog was still posted "11 seconds ago".

WTF?

I have this problem since I've joined this site like 2 years ago? Anyways, it always says "x seconds ago" for posts no older than 1 day.

Jokingly, I'm just happy the website is up. Seriously, the tech team will see issues posted in the Website Feedback section of the Forums, not here.

I did not quite expect my mesmerist wishes would have come about so soon in the psychic. Want to roll one up and take it on a spin!

the psychic remind me the wilder in d and d 3.5 for the psychic unleashed power. Its good and in my mind the cranial déluge can make in this '' psyhic beast mode power'' all exploding head not just one for the power. Sorry for my bad englsih.

the reduced spell slots and 6+con hp for psychic feels a little punishing without *quite* enough to back it up, I think this should be addressed cuz I feel like it just looks worse than an occult bloodline sorcerer which isnt what it deserves to be. Oracle is also focus spell focused and has normal amount of spell slots and 8+con hp so i dont see why psychic should be different

Either way i love the mechanics of both classes quite a lot, though I'd love to see more "Trick magic item" style feats for the Thaumaturge. Their core ability of "Find Flaw + Antithesis" feels a bit close to investigator and I'd love to see the "magic item expert" element really shine and stand out, as the implements are super cool and the talisman/scroll feats are super fun

Alright, at first glance *both* new classes seem (IMO) much more interesting in terms of both flavor and mechanics than magus, summoner, gunslinger or inventor. I really like them, and I'm intrigued about the idea of different chapters for different occult phenomena; the mini-adventures are also a nice bonus!

I have to say, I'm excited about the apparent new design principle that breaks away from the traditional RPG supplement format! :)

Is there a format, similar to Herolab Online's statblock that is available to make sheets for this?

I definitely don't wanna see another 6hp class without 4 slots. Witch really feels like she needs 8hp and more armor

I definitely don't wanna see another 6hp class without 4 slots. Witch really feels like she needs 8hp and more armor

That's because what the witch gained for giving up her fourth slot just isn't enough. If they balance the psychic right, I think it would be fine.

6 HP and 2 slots per level says to me they should have tons of open balance power to staple onto the psychic! If they do so and make amping worth that trade, it would be a slick class.

If they don't add much power to amping and only tune it up a little bit, then yeah something else needs to come back. Personally I do like the idea of psychics being very low health, like a wizard or a "standard" bomber alchemist.

I definitely don't wanna see another 6hp class without 4 slots. Witch really feels like she needs 8hp and more armor

At least it's not a wave caster.

WWHsmackdown wrote:

I definitely don't wanna see another 6hp class without 4 slots. Witch really feels like she needs 8hp and more armor

At least it's not a wave caster.

I like the magus and summoner, but definitely wouldn't wanna see the psychic go in that direction. Feels like a caster.

graystone wrote:

WWHsmackdown wrote:

I definitely don't wanna see another 6hp class without 4 slots. Witch really feels like she needs 8hp and more armor

At least it's not a wave caster.

I like the magus and summoner, but definitely wouldn't wanna see the psychic go in that direction. Feels like a caster.

Agreed. If any of the existing Occult Classes should be Wave/Bounded Casters, I'd say it should be Kineticist, or maybe even the Medium with its limited casting ability.

Is it possible to create a telepath psyhic?

Good to have some free dark archiving, Psychic and Thaumaturge playtestin' stuff for PF2e. ;)

Is it possible to create a telepath psyhic?

Check out the silent whisper class option ^_^

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Is it possible to create a telepath psyhic?

Check out the silent whisper class option ^_^

Gracias!

Please rename the "Thaumaturge" class back to Occultist. It's a much more accurate description of what the class does.

If this means renaming the kitchen sink occult magic tradition into something else, that's find with me. Occultism and Bardic traditions are not a good fit IMO either.

Hard Pass.

Also they're not going to rename the Magic Tradition and Skill this far in.

I guess we will never get the Divinist then.

As a class? Nah, but it's likely as an archetype.