Save the Date for a New Pathfinder Class Playtest!

I was really on board with the gloomblade as an archetype because I thought it was something I wanted any martial character to be able to do, but after seeing the soulforger I do agree the gloomblade deserves to be its own unique thing. There's a ton of cool stuff you could do with on-the-fly shadowcraft weapons. It mostly got away with being as fancy as it was in PF1 despite just being an archetype because it was fully willing to put a bunch of direct upgrades on a bad chassis.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I really, really, really want the Occult alternative to the Champion.

Give me the spookiest beeftank devoted to esoteric weirdness with a polearm and real armor, please.

An Occult martial is something I'm struggling to picture, but want very badly.

Ever played/watched Control?

keftiu wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I really, really, really want the Occult alternative to the Champion.

Give me the spookiest beeftank devoted to esoteric weirdness with a polearm and real armor, please.

An Occult martial is something I'm struggling to picture, but want very badly.

Ever played/watched Control?

Ha, good pull! I suppose she’s an Occultist, of a sort.

It feels like you could unite the more martial PF1 Occultists with the Spiritualists who had a spooky weapon and/or ghost tentacles instead of a phantom and get something to work here.

Thoughts on thematic baselines that could work for an 'occult martial'...

The PF1 champion medium, enhancing their combat ability by tapping into the power of ancient spirits being channeled through them.

The PF1 occultist, whose powers come from manipulating the magical and resonant properties of items in their possession... I know some people liked caster-y occultists but to me the class was always a martial with spooky powers first.

... has anyone here played Nioh 2? The protagonist of that game runs around fighting spooky vengeful spirits with a combination of their own spirit powers and a collection of magical abilities derived from those same spirits. That could be something cool to explore.

... In that same game you can wield more traditional magic, except it takes the form of temporary items: scrolls, paper talismans and charms that you can invoke. That could also be a fun design space to look at, sort of in the same area as the alchemist but in a different direction.

... Yusuke from Yu Yu Hakusho.

i mean the "I hunt the things that go bump in the night" character could be recontextualized to be Occult ("because I know their ways") rather than Divine ("because my God commands me").

I mean, my least favorite part of the Inquisitor in PF1 was "the name of the class."

I've seen some comments about Blood Magic not having made it into SoM. Wonder if that would be a full class or an archetype. If a full class, could be one of the playtests.

... Yusuke from Yu Yu Hakusho.

It's funny, when I think Urameshi I definitely get "Inquisitor + Martial Artist" vibes but maybe that's a stretch. He may be a spirit detective, but I always felt like his WIS was much higher than his INT.

i mean the "I hunt the things that go bump in the night" character could be recontextualized to be Occult ("because I know their ways") rather than Divine ("because my God commands me").

I mean, my least favorite part of the Inquisitor in PF1 was "the name of the class."

I would like to keep the Divine as at least an option (though I see your discomfort with the name), as many gods of Golarion have enemies that need hunting and that character concept is currently kind of underbaked as a player option in 2e. If you want to play someone who slays demons for Kazutal, fights against those who enslave Casandalee’s many Android “children,” or puts down dangerous undead for Pharasma? You’re stuck with Warpriest Clerics or the much more defensively-minded (and narrow in concept, with their alignment schtick) Champions.

Squiggit wrote:

... Yusuke from Yu Yu Hakusho.

It's funny, when I think Urameshi I definitely get "Inquisitor + Martial Artist" vibes but maybe that's a stretch. He may be a spirit detective, but I always felt like his WIS was much higher than his INT.

And while we’re at it, can I /please/ have mechanics for being like Kuwabara?

re: names and vibes.

Offensive divine character definitely still feels like a valuable niche to explore.

Although as I've said before I pretty much just want them to crib the 4e avenger. I want to dash around the battlefield at unreasonable speeds swinging a greatsword.

Squiggit wrote:

... Yusuke from Yu Yu Hakusho.

It's funny, when I think Urameshi I definitely get "Inquisitor + Martial Artist" vibes but maybe that's a stretch. He may be a spirit detective, but I always felt like his WIS was much higher than his INT.

I can definitely see that, but the whole vibe of that show definitely feels more occult than divine to me.

That said, yeah, Inquisitor could definitely be a viable route for that whole archetype of character too, regarding hunting spirits and dealing with occultic terrors.

Midnightoker wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

... Yusuke from Yu Yu Hakusho.

It's funny, when I think Urameshi I definitely get "Inquisitor + Martial Artist" vibes but maybe that's a stretch. He may be a spirit detective, but I always felt like his WIS was much higher than his INT.

And while we’re at it, can I /please/ have mechanics for being like Kuwabara?

Oh shit is Hiei doable now? Tiefling Laughing Shadow Magus into Shadowcaster maybe? Or summoner for eidolon?

Kuramas been on the table for a while.

Kuwabara sort of works with Magus if they get spirit sheath maybe but a true energy weapon is definitely missing. Soulknife maybe?

re: names and vibes.

Offensive divine character definitely still feels like a valuable niche to explore.

Although as I've said before I pretty much just want them to crib the 4e avenger. I want to dash around the battlefield at unreasonable speeds swinging a greatsword.

Midnightoker wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

... Yusuke from Yu Yu Hakusho.

It's funny, when I think Urameshi I definitely get "Inquisitor + Martial Artist" vibes but maybe that's a stretch. He may be a spirit detective, but I always felt like his WIS was much higher than his INT.

I can definitely see that, but the whole vibe of that show definitely feels more occult than divine to me.

That said, yeah, Inquisitor could definitely be a viable route for that whole archetype of character too, regarding hunting spirits and dealing with occultic terrors.

I have to wonder if an Investigator Methodology that granted some degree of Occult spellcasting might be in the cards someday.

I do get people's dislike of the name due to the Inquistions of old. But, I do agree with keftiu here. Even without the name Inquisitor, the overall theme of the class is "hunter of religious enemies and dark forces". To drop the name Inquisitor, I think we would have to redefine the theme behind the class as a whole.

In my research to find alternate names for Champion Causes that bear religious connotations to them, there just isn't anything that really fits the idea behind Inquisitos. Absolver is the most similar I feel, and sorta evokes what an Inquisitor is. But again, the real issue here, imo, would still be the overall theme of the Class. At the end of the day, the Inquisitor would still be an Inquisitor in everything but name. And I'm not sure a name change would take away from that.

I guess I'm not convinced that the "supernaturally charged monster hunter" needs to be divine for anything except "casting divine spells" since a given deity or church can have really any non-divine class fulfilling key roles there.

There are Swashbucklers in the church of Shelyn, Alchemists in the church of Norgorber, Druids in the church of Gozreh, etc. If the source of your power is not "your deity" that doesn't make your service to that deity any less meaningful.

I guess I'm not convinced that the "supernaturally charged monster hunter" needs to be divine for anything except "casting divine spells" since a given deity or church can have really any non-divine class fulfilling key roles there.

There are Swashbucklers in the church of Shelyn, Alchemists in the church of Norgorber, Druids in the church of Gozreh, etc.

I think of the class as “weapon and tool of their given faith” much more than I think of it as “magical monster hunter.” The latter can be played with much of the same mechanical chassis, but the former is the fantasy that’s the whole appeal of the class to me.

I'm not super enthused about another divine class being denied to Animists, Sangpotshi, Rivethun, Ancestor Worshipers, etc. like the Cleric and Champion are currently, TBH.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I guess I'm not convinced that the "supernaturally charged monster hunter" needs to be divine for anything except "casting divine spells" since a given deity or church can have really any non-divine class fulfilling key roles there.

There are Swashbucklers in the church of Shelyn, Alchemists in the church of Norgorber, Druids in the church of Gozreh, etc.

I think of the class as “weapon and tool of their given faith” much more than I think of it as “magical monster hunter.” The latter can be played with much of the same mechanical chassis, but the former is the fantasy that’s the whole appeal of the class to me.

For me it's the opposite personally, but... I'm probably going to be excited with whatever Paizo puts out.

Gonna be kinda awkward though if we spent like ten pages debating the merits of inquisitors vs other ideas and they hit us with... IDK, psychics and wave-caster bloodragers for the Occult Mysteries playtest or something.

keftiu wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I guess I'm not convinced that the "supernaturally charged monster hunter" needs to be divine for anything except "casting divine spells" since a given deity or church can have really any non-divine class fulfilling key roles there.

There are Swashbucklers in the church of Shelyn, Alchemists in the church of Norgorber, Druids in the church of Gozreh, etc.

I think of the class as “weapon and tool of their given faith” much more than I think of it as “magical monster hunter.” The latter can be played with much of the same mechanical chassis, but the former is the fantasy that’s the whole appeal of the class to me.

For me it's the opposite personally, but... I'm probably going to be excited with whatever Paizo puts out.

Gonna be kinda awkward though if we spent like ten pages debating the merits of inquisitors vs other ideas and they hit us with... IDK, psychics and wave-caster bloodragers for the Occult Mysteries playtest or something.

Psychics are another one of my most-wanted classes, and I have a friend who would jump ten feet in the air if Bloodragers came to 2e :)

As long as Paizo handles the matter properly, veering away from the negative connotations being accosiacted with the term, then its use should be fine. They aren't setting out to purposefully be offensive or harmful to the sensibilities of their fans, and defiently aren't promoting anyone to go forth and perform morally questionable a vile acts in the name of their faith. No more than featuring any other unpleasant subject matter is meant to.

But, I do think Absolver would be a good alternative. Vindicator might be good too. And, having recently rewatched Guardians of the Galaxy, Accuser also has a nice ring to it.

Also pretty okay with removing the religious themes behind the Class and instead maybe going with the "bounty hunter/monster slayer" idea. But, like keftiu, I'm not exactly thrilled by that idea. And not simply for the sake of filling in a "divine wave caster". I genuinely enjoy the fantasy of the class and feel there are plenty of ways to represent it respectfully.

I like Vindicator a lot. Active, righteous, forceful themes without being any specific historical baggage.

Absolver feels a little soft and pacifistic, and Accuser a little passive.

Prepared Divine Wave caster with an emphasis on aggressive single target takedowns.

You have to find a way to meaningfully differentiate them from Rangers, though.

If they aren’t at least a little bit sneak-y or social-y, I’ll be a little sad. They’re religious spies and assassins to me before pretty much any other concept.

I guess my preference for a class that can slot into "I am a weapon for my god" as a roleplaying/build choice rather than as the essential nature of the class is that even non-deific faiths have need for a troubleshooter (your ancestors surely have people they want you to mess up) and not every God needs or wants a weapon (What, precisely, does an Inquisitor of Ng or Sun Wukong do?).

So I'd strongly prefer a class that the exiting inquisitor concepts can slot into, but is bigger than those concepts in case someone doesn't want the baggage (or prefers different baggage.) I've played an Inquisitor of Ng as a deliberately nonsensical choice, and it's assuredly not for everyone; whereas an Inquisitor of Dranngvit is just a debt collector.

I wonder if theming the class around Causes modeled after the Inquisitor's Judgements like Protection, Justice, Purification, etc. could work. So your character is primarily devoted to that, and two characters who are all about purging the land of unsavory types can be about totally different things since one is aligned with Pharasma (so they want Undead gone) and one is aligned with Desna (so Aberrations get the boot.)

Honestly, if they handle it correctly a class that encompasses Inquisitor, Vigilante of old, and Warpriest of old might be really good. Those 3 classes have a lot of things in common especially when you consider that there was the Zealot Vigilante archetype.

If not combine Inquisitor and Ninja into a single "Assassin/Messenger/Spy" class. Something like one class path grants Judgement, while another grants Ki. Might even have a 3rd path to handle another trope.

I like Vindicator a lot. Active, righteous, forceful themes without being any specific historical baggage.

Absolver feels a little soft and pacifistic, and Accuser a little passive.

Prepared Divine Wave caster with an emphasis on aggressive single target takedowns.

You have to find a way to meaningfully differentiate them from Rangers, though.

Had to do a double take through all my sists of "Class names" and forgot about that one. It was actually my number one pick at one point.

Definition for Vindicator and Absolver are the same: to clear or free someone of blame, guilt, responsibility, or suspicion. This sort of falls into the core principles of the historical Inquistions; which was to investigate and suppress heresy within the church. Historically, their methods were indeed questionable and vile. But the root remains the same, even today, as the Roman Inquistion still exists as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. They still inquire cases of possible heresy within the church, with considerably less violence, and with the added focus of defending the Catholic doctrines. Once they've done their part, they'll either be charged or vindicated/absolve of their presumed crimes against the church. So I'd say either one works. Accuser is a bit passive; only if you consider Ronan the Accusers absolute decimation and destruction of planets passive. Lol.

I guess my preference for a class that can slot into "I am a weapon for my god" as a roleplaying/build choice rather than as the essential nature of the class is that even non-deific faiths have need for a troubleshooter (your ancestors surely have people they want you to mess up) and not every God needs or wants a weapon (What, precisely, does an Inquisitor of Ng or Sun Wukong do?).

This is something I really want to see as well. The other philosophies and faiths of Golarion have had very little support, even in 1e. As someone who almost exclusively has played a Cleric most of his tabletop career (and who is ironically agnostic, but I enjoy theological research); I would really like to explore other options of spiritualism in-game. Sure there are some possibilities in other classes. But, I feel in a word full or magic and myth, it doesn't seem to unreasonable that one's conviction in a universal ideal could promote power in themselves; even if it isn't from some cosmic or deific being. But, I do suppose that would be were the Occult would come in.

Personally, I like the name, "Confessor", as a replacement for Inquisitor.

I guess my preference for a class that can slot into "I am a weapon for my god" as a roleplaying/build choice rather than as the essential nature of the class is that even non-deific faiths have need for a troubleshooter (your ancestors surely have people they want you to mess up)

I'm not sure why you'd need to make any drastic changes for that though. We just need the appropriate statblocks

+1 to the chorus of voices asking for more non-deific Divine support. I imagine we'll get more as we see Arcadia, Casmaron/Vudra, and Tian Xia.

Personally, I like the name, "Confessor", as a replacement for Inquisitor.

I’m willing to give it a go, but my own personal homebrew campaign (and my being raised Catholic) makes that an odd choice for my taste.

Although… actually it might work. See, my main LG deity was “Nepomucene the confessor”, focused not on zealotry or enforcement, but on redemption and purification. I was pretty amused when “Redeemer” was considered NG, but a few quick edits could make that fit well enough.

So I could definitely see Nepomucene sponsoring a coterie of social skill focused characters that can use the silken word or hidden blade as needed.

Mind, I’d still prefer the inquisitor to be a class path of either the investigator or a theoretical warlord class, but I’m starting to be convinced there’s enough there to explore a full class.

Edit: Also, I’d be in for non-cleric divine casting. I still think it should be tied to the aligned planes, but anything that might help non deific divine classes would be good.

Ashanderai wrote:

Personally, I like the name, "Confessor", as a replacement for Inquisitor.

I’m willing to give it a go, but my own personal homebrew campaign (and my being raised Catholic) makes that an odd choice for my taste.

Although… actually it might work. See, my main LG deity was “Nepomucene the confessor”, focused not on zealotry or enforcement, but on redemption and purification. I was pretty amused when “Redeemer” was considered NG, but a few quick edits could make that fit well enough.

So I could definitely see Nepomucene sponsoring a coterie of social skill focused characters that can use the silken word or hidden blade as needed.

Mind, I’d still prefer the inquisitor to be a class path of either the investigator or a theoretical warlord class, but I’m starting to be convinced there’s enough there to explore a full class.

Edit: Also, I’d be in for non-cleric divine casting. I still think it should be tied to the aligned planes, but anything that might help non deific divine classes would be good.

Incidently, vindicate is a synonym to redeem. And to purify is to cleanse. So, it seems to me that "Nepomucene the Confessor" may have potential as "Nepomucene the Vindicator".

But, I also want to be able to play a Cleric of the Whispering Way, who view the Whispering Tyrant as the true God of Undeath and awaits his rise to true Divinity. Or maybe a Cleric of Sangpotshi, gaining divine might from their conviction.

If Monk's can cast their Focus Spells as Divine without being beholden to a Deity, surely that suggests there is more to divinity than being a Deity? Oracles can get their power from Deities, but also by basically tapping into the source of divine power that the Deities do.

I need this.

I think of inquisitors as slinking agents of a god. Even good gods might have secretive agents. Inquisitor is an evil name with evil historical baggage...but I think that's pretty apt for the general class concept. Regardless of righteous intent, I very much doubt I'd ever meet a very "good" inquisitor. Always trained to root out evil and live in a world of suspicion and paranoia. Long story short I think of the name and the need to include a god as necessary, unless you're shooting for something different design/theme wise, which is also fine.

Indeed, the term has an incredibly detestable history; rightly gained from centuries of conflict and cruelty. But the core concept of the idea is neutral enough when you factor out the historical instances. Paizo isn't asking, promoting, or even making anyone play characters belonging to the Papal or Spanish Inquistions. No more than they are telling us to make Redeemer Champions who commit acts of atrocity against the unrepentant. Which is to say, the capacity to create such questionable caricatures is already present. The key is for Paizo to handle it responsibly and respectfully, remaining sensitive and inoffensive in it's use, and ensuring that they aren't actively promoting the ideals of such a dark time in history.

That said, I'm not opposed to a name change. But, the real question I think is would a simple change in vocabulary really be enough to provide comfort to those who aren't keen on its inclusion? The heart of the Class would still be tied to such vile implications after all.

A Pathfinder Inquisitor is likely going to play heavily off the edicts and anathema of its deities. PossibleCabbage mentioned playing an Inquisitor of Ng, which sounds hilariously delightful. Not much threat to most, but damned be those who they find sleeping in the same place twice or wearing seasonal clothing out of season. Reminds me of characters like Sheogorath or Cicero from the Elder Scrolls. Delightfully mad, even if that isn't really his wheelhouse.

Would "Warden" be too far removed?

Perhaps "Adjudicator"? They are passing judgement after all.

Would "Warden" be too far removed?

Perhaps "Adjudicator"? They are passing judgement after all.

Warden could be a really good class name, even if not as a replacement for inquisitor.

Wardens are technically what one would call a Caster Ranger, given their Focus Spells are called Warden Spells.

Adjudicator is a little cumbersome to say. So not to my personal taste.

Wardens are technically what one would call a Caster Ranger, given their Focus Spells are called Warden Spells.

Adjudicator is a little cumbersome to say. So not to my personal taste.

Fair is fair, but I feel similarly about Vindicator.

Hunter seems close thematically, but then there's the whole inherent primal connection.

Inquisitor might be here to stay.

Enforcer?

I don't care for it due to the amount of syllables in it, being five. Most of the classes are 4 syllables or less, with the exception of Investigator. How about just Judge or Arbiter?

Enforcer is an option, but sounds more fitting for a Starfinder Class imo.

EDIT: I'm fine with Inquisitor personally. Just making suggestions for others. The negative connotations connected to the name don't bother me, since a lot of things can be used or seen negatively if you focus on it. That's just me though and I understand others disdain for it.

Inquisitor is simply the most apt name for what they are about, in my opinion. They might not all be the Spanish Inquisition or its 40k caricature, but unless the class comes with a dramatic shift in its theme, that is mostly a question of degree, not kind. In the end, they are still about discovering and eliminating threats to their faith and the faithful, just in a more bureaucratic/sneaky way than a champion. They are still judge, jury and (depending on the god and particular branch of faith) not rarely executioner.

So if we change the name without also changing what they are about - since that is the thing that is actually problematic - we are just doing a 1984.

I think the best approach here is to keep the name and handle the material carefully, as was done so far.

Hm, why not Justiciar? Inquisitors do judge and we already have the magus with quasi-latin name…

Hm, why not Justiciar? Inquisitors do judge and we already have the magus with quasi-latin name…

Would personally prefer Justiciar as the LN Champion Cause.

I almost want to call them "Hand"; as in "The Hands of Serenrae", "She is a Hand of Asmodeus.", or "The Hands of the Green Faith will not let this vile destruction go unpunished!" But, that is a name I know will never go over well.

Also, it is more of an in-setting sobriquet than the name of a class, the more I think on it.

I was actually just thinking up a homebrew organization/pantheon called the "Hands of Fate -or- Faith". Don't have a solid idea behind them yet aside from their symbol being an open palm with seven digits (two thumbs and five fingers).

Now we just need the Foot Clan...
----
In all seriousness, had a thought earlier for an Inquisitor feature called Penance. Was thinking it could work as a reaction ability, punishing enemies that met the requirements of the reaction. The effects could vary, from granting AoO to impart negative conditions or penalties. Works separately from Judgements, being effects that require use of action economy or focus pool.

EDIT: Maybe some kind of, idk, Penance Stare as an option?

Am I the only one that sees Inquisitors as just Church-y Rangers, conceptually? Mechanically they've got a unique enough identity, but I can't really see them as their own class again when some archetyping replicates the idea pretty well.

Am I the only one that sees Inquisitors as just Church-y Rangers, conceptually? Mechanically they've got a unique enough identity, but I can't really see them as their own class again when some archetyping replicates the idea pretty well.

This is honestly why I'd rather see an inquisitor identity shift more to the cryptic, occult, men-in-black but for deities, witchhunters space.

In terms of how they are flavored, they aren't that different from rangers to me personally.

I went back and looked at the inquisitor spell list to see what kinds of spells they got they aren't 100% divine. Invisibility is a good example of a spell on their list that clerics didn't and still don't get (occult arcane).

So to me, in order to replicate the list of the inquisitor I think Occult list + Deity spells is honestly closer to covering the old vibes as well as separating it a step further from ranger (since occult and primal are basically opposites).

After all there's a high demand for an Investigator who can use occult right?

Why wouldn't the monster hunting, hand of the church/organization, plays by a different set of rules, judgement bringing class make a good case for that as a concept proper?

And then, Judgement represents when your deity has basically chosen to bless you with kicking powers as a more special moment than simply the off on switch it was in PF1.

Constantine, Urameshi, Van Helsing, Trese, the Winchesters, etc all give me occult vibes, but they also do have distinct deific tie-ins and themes.

I feel like it'd just be a way more interesting take on the concept if it wasn't just "offensive champion" or "divine ranger" because realistically those could just be made with class archetypes IMO.

That sounds like a focus-casting class archetype for Ranger.

A lot of these older 1e classes could be class archetypes for existing ones, even some that we already have classes for like Investigator could have slotted in somewhat.

That sounds like a focus-casting class archetype for Ranger.

Why would an occult caster with deific tie ins sound like a focus casting ranger?

Are folks picturing a focus caster and not a bounded/wave caster?

I just want a fully offensive divine character.

Are folks picturing a focus caster and not a bounded/wave caster?

I thought wave myself but casting changes have happened for Ranger and War Priest so maybe others aren't seeing it the same.

Inquisitor seems even harder to realize if it's a focus caster only though. I'd sooner see it be a full caster than that.

Am I the only one that sees Inquisitors as just Church-y Rangers, conceptually? Mechanically they've got a unique enough identity, but I can't really see them as their own class again when some archetyping replicates the idea pretty well.

That's what people said about... actually the entire APG lineup, but I think the game's better for not going that route more often.

The problem with just making something an archetype is that archetypes are slow and feat intensive and even then pretty small all things considered.

I think this is evident even in some of the classes they did decide to relegate to archetype status. Vigilante and Cavalier are both pretty serviceable archetypes, but there's absolutely a ton of conceptual space from their previous-edition iterations that you can't manage with an archetype alone... and since they've already been made into archetypes, there's a decent chance that space will never open up again.