Save the Date for a New Pathfinder Class Playtest!

also while this is a fun clue, we could in theory with this clue alone get any combination of classes because they don't say how much longer or how much shorter than 9 letters.

Well, we know we’re definitely not getting, say, a Paychic and Warden class combination. My own inquisitor (or antiquarian) and Warlord class might be correct.

My prediction is the Buttermancer, an Occult Caster who weaves their magicks through the uncanny power of baked goods.

My prediction is the Buttermancer, an Occult Caster who weaves their magicks through the uncanny power of baked goods.

Reminds me of a villain in Misfits who was lactokinetic.

My prediction is the Buttermancer, an Occult Caster who weaves their magicks through the uncanny power of baked goods.

Seems like a lot of overlap with the Saucerer.

Jokey the Unfunny Comedian wrote:

My prediction is the Buttermancer, an Occult Caster who weaves their magicks through the uncanny power of baked goods.

Seems like a lot of overlap with the Saucerer.

Idk both seem to be combos with meatserker.

QuidEst wrote:

Jokey the Unfunny Comedian wrote:

My prediction is the Buttermancer, an Occult Caster who weaves their magicks through the uncanny power of baked goods.

Seems like a lot of overlap with the Saucerer.

Idk both seem to be combos with meatserker.

All of these seem like great options for multiclassing as an Ingestigator.

While people are jumping on fact that the intervals given for name length are [1,9] and [9,∞) (assuming a name must be a non-null string) so it's possible that both have exactly nine characters, I'm hoping the classes are Ö and Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitän.

O is my favorite class.

I'm having such a hard time not hoping it's kineticist. I don't want to, logically it probably won't be. And I'll be less heartbroken if I can convince myself now that it won't be kineticist. But part of me is like... What if...?

My dreams of being a Cow Puncher are about to comes true pardner.

My dreams of being a Cow Puncher are about to comes true pardner.

I prefer Cowpoke. It amuses me to imagine people poking cattle [and the resulting trampling]. Punching cattle just seems mean though. ;)

Not if they are evil cows. :o

Not if they are evil cows. :o

Oh, that's bull... But it WOULD tenderize the meat. ;)

Ly'ualdre wrote:

Not if they are evil cows. :o

Oh, that's bull... But it WOULD tenderize the meat. ;)

Bull... bull... Minotaur Cowpoke?

Will we find out in Erik's address on Thursday, or will it be the designer showcase on Friday?

ETA: Oh, and: Inquisitor and Occultist.

Ah, we'll find out in the keynote what the names are for sure. Name and a quick one sentence description each.

To be frank we don't really need even a one sentence description for a lot of classes. Like, I don't need Erik to tell me what an inquisitor is :D

Less Than 9: Arcanist (x), Brawler, Cavalier (x), Hunter, Medium, Ninja, Omdura, Psychic, Samurai, Shaman, Shifter, Skald, Slayer

Exactly 9: Mesmerist, Occultist, Vigilante(x), Warpriest(x)

More than 9: Bloodrager, Inquisitor, Kineticist, Spiritualist(x), Vampire Hunter

As for additional options I've seen mentioned?

Less Than 9: Binder, Courtier, Factotum, Merchant, Solarion, Vanguard, Warlock, Warlord

Exactly 9: Timethief, Spellthief

More than 9: Mountebank, Witchwarper

I still think it could be Solarion/Kinetcist. They have a certain amount of thematic overlap, and there is a Starfinder/Pathfinder cross-over event.

I want the Tyromancer. Available in Martial flavor if possible.

Now, past a certain amount of turos, these distinctions are meaningless.

The Guns and Gears classes have the technology theme in technology themed book, and Secrets of Magic classes have the magic martial theme, but in a magic themed book. So, it is likely that the classes will share a theme.

For example, we kinda can discard a Tian Xia theme because Samurai and Ninja wouldn't qualify, unless they want to add Shugenja.

So, it is likely that there is another game about picking the theme of the book.

Humbly,
Yawar

For example, we kinda can discard a Tian Xia theme because Samurai and Ninja wouldn't qualify, unless they want to add Shugenja.

So, it is likely that there is another game about picking the theme of the book.

Humbly,
Yawar

You know, previously, I didn't think we would see the Samurai and Ninja in a book like this. So far, all the Classes have been featured in Rulebooks and a Tian-Xia specific felt like more a Lost Omens line book. But, considering what Book of the Dead is, being a part lore/setting, part mechanics, part bestiary rulebook; I can actually wholly see this now.

A Rulebook that covers some of the lore of Tian-Xia and maybe the furtherest reaches of Casmaron (or even a bit of Sarusan), alongside a handful of monsters found in those areas could be the perfect place to add Samurai and Ninja (and other mechanically appropriate additions/expansions, like adding more Fulu). I don't think we will see this done now, but maybe in the next year or so. Would love to be wrong about that, since I want more information on Tian-Xia more than anything. Still think there will be a specific LO book for Tian-Xia at some point. But this seems like a sound idea.

Was just thinking that SoM did some elemental and geomancy themed magic but it was more focused on the actual environment and air, earth, water, fire traits, not something like if you wanted to make a caster with a focus on cold or electricity for example.

This magical energy focus seems to be the realm of the kineticist and I wonder if they did something a bit different in Secrets of Magic in order to leave that magic energy space for an upcoming primal magic focused class in a nature related book. Hoping more for something spooky and occult like for this announcement but kineticist seems to come up over and over again

Expanding the Kineticist to all forms of energy and elements would be fun. There are quite a few options to choose from. Could expand to alignments too potentially.

I always thought the Kineticist could be expanded to any mechanism in the game. Playing with levels, HPs, Hero Points, conditions ...

And why not? A Hero Point manipulating class would be amazing!

But I all seriousness, why would expanding the Kineticist's chasis be a reach? Their gimmick is channeling and manipulating the Elements. 1e broadened this by including options like Aether, Void, and Wood; but unless they plan to expand their options down the line, the class will stagnate. And both their Wild Talents and Archetypes prove that they can manipulate more than just the standard elements. So I don't think it is unreasonable to believe a Kineticist could manipulate Acidic energy as a base option instead of making it an offshore of say Earth. Or that they could serve as a physical conduit for the aligned quintessense of the planes themselves. Or, since half of the Primal Tradition is fueled by the Life Essense, could even manipulate Positive and Negative Energy directly, instead of as a byproduct of Wood and Void. Or simply manifesting control over Sonic energy.

The goal of 2e is advancement of the rules after all. No reason new ideas shouldn't be on the table. I'm not saying they should do anything as anime as manipulating fear. But I would like to see them broaden in the areas that make sense.

And why not? A Hero Point manipulating class would be amazing!

But I all seriousness, why would expanding the Kineticist's chasis be a reach? Their gimmick is channeling and manipulating the Elements. 1e broadened this by including options like Aether, Void, and Wood; but unless they plan to expand their options down the line, the class will stagnate. And both their Wild Talents and Archetypes prove that they can manipulate more than just the standard elements. So I don't think it is unreasonable to believe a Kineticist could manipulate Acidic energy as a base option instead of making it an offshore of say Earth. Or that they could serve as a physical conduit for the aligned quintessense of the planes themselves. Or, since half of the Primal Tradition is fueled by the Life Essense, could even manipulate Positive and Negative Energy directly, instead of as a byproduct of Wood and Void. Or simply manifesting control over Sonic energy.

The goal of 2e is advancement of the rules after all. No reason new ideas shouldn't be on the table. I'm not saying they should do anything as anime as manipulating fear. But I would like to see them broaden in the areas that make sense.

I agree and I was 100% serious. The notion came to me several years ago while discussing possible additional elements for the PF1 Kineticist.

Manipulating levels of Darkness, and maybe Light, was considered for example.

Ly'ualdre wrote:

Quote omitted

I agree and I was 100% serious. The notion came to me several years ago while discussing possible additional elements for the PF1 Kineticist.

Manipulating levels of Darkness, and maybe Light, was considered for example.

Ahh, my mistake. I assumed you were being facetious. Then I reread it and realized I may have jumped the gun. My apologies.

Light and Darkness would be fine additions as well. As it stands, Shadow should really be a form of Elemental Matter. I suppose it may fall into the Void Element, what with the Negative Energy Planes relation to the Shadow Plane. But, Void is suggested to be the Elements mixing with the Negative Energy Plane directly; unlike Wood which stems (pun intended) from the Elements mingling with the First World.

By that logic, Darkness (or Shadow) could be the Elements compounded by the Shadow Plane itself, and maybe Radiance (aka Light) could be the Elements when touched by the Positive Energy Plane. This way, all of the Inner Spheres are included in their own unique way.
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Also, I was going to make a suggestion that the Kineticist could be written as the "Matter Essence" manipulator, choosing between Arcane or Primal and focusing on the Elements. Had the idea after thinking about the Ki Monk being able to choose between Divine and Occult, with the similarity between the two being the Spirit Essence; leading me to believe that Ki is Spirit Essense. But, that isn't correct, as Ki should be Life Essence, given the Jiang-Shi's relation to it. So, maybe Ki Monk's should be really Divine or Primal, unless the Occult's Mind Essence somehow plays a role?

I was then going to suggest having two Classes who are the "Mind Manipulator" and the "Life Manipulator", with Psychic being the Mind one. Was then going to suggests maybe some sort of Class whose gimmick is tapping into Negative and Positive Energy from their source and attempt to maintain some kind of esoteric balance between them.

Buuuut, the initial reason for these suggestions is moot. I suppose they could still do this and also create a Class that is the "Spirit Manipulator". Perhaps the Shaman or Medium?

EDIT: Actually, Hero Points are basically Luck. So, maybe a Class that relies on Luck and really plays with the Hero Point system as it's core?

Manipulating darkness seems like a void talent. Manipulating light is practically what wood positive blasts. Do you mean make an element just for light?

Because it seems like it would be more in lore to have Kineticist archetypes for the alignment planes following the example of Elysiokineticist (Wood element but close ties with Elysium). Hellkineticist would be a fire element with close ties with hell. Making them outright elements doesn't fit due to not matching the general "elemental" themes that Kineticist has.

Also I think this is being missed. Kineticist talents comes from manipulating the planar energy they have. Not from manipulating other energy. That includes creating mixtures and separating only the parts you want. Why would there be a sonic elemental focus when there is no sound elemental plane?

Similar Wood is based on the First World, which is the closest thing to the Positive plane. While Void is based on the Shadow plane, which is the closes thing to the negative plane. Why would Kineticist have more access to positive/negative when all their power comes from the ethereal plane? If anything they would all have access to Aether talents (Aether = Ethereal + Ethereal).

Spoiled, because I know I had a tendency to be long-winded in my post, and I'm certain that likely annoys some. Also, as a side, I assume you meant Elements + Ethereal = Aether.

Yea I meant elements + ethereal. Aether is very much the generic form of Kineticist.

Mortals shouldn't be capable of channeling the cosmic might that Deities do, but Oracles do it at risk to themselves. I would imagine this is why Kineticist had Burn.

And I don't see how Void would be any different than an Element related to Postive Energy. Again, Void stems directly from the Negative Energy Plane. It isn't buffered by the Shadow Plane. By that logic, a Kineticist shouldn't be capable of channeling it just the same. It is the cosmic force of death and destruction.

From what I understood its a matter of scale. Creatures can live in the negative plane for sometime, specially if undead. But things can't really live in the positive plane or they explode. If they want to change that so be, it is the way it is last time I checked.

Also, Oracle and Kineticist are drawing from different sources.

There are a number of creatures that live in the Positive Energy Plane as well, primarily the Jyoti. And being Undead is largely an exception to the rule. Negative Energy's purpose is to destroy. It's corrupted in attempt to create life with it, hence Undead and why they are predominantly Evil, because it goes against the nature purpose of the Plane. Even still, that doesn't prove that a living mortal is capable of channeling it. O ly that maybe an Undead creature could.

Also, not sure how you can suggest that Spirit and Metal aren't actual Planar physics, when the concept of Wood is strictly part of the Minkaian Elemental philosophy and is proven to exist. So, by extension, the other two likely do as well. I think the Wizards Elemental Sxhool of Metal proves that.

The strength of the planar energy seems like a really good reason to not everyone can do it. Afterall all of them are being channeled via the elemental plane and not directly.

Also its not so much suggesting that metal can't exist. But that its unlikely to exist based on overlap with earth outside specific spells (which is why it makes sense with wizard school). Spirit I think doesn't work because ghost are ethereal creatures, aka aether.

Most of my other comment was about not agreeing with "Sonic" and other "elemental energy" things.

What would you to expand on the concept?

Expand on the concept? Well: New ways to use the talents, different ways to interact with action economy, expanded abilities, variable feats (works one way for 1 element but another way for another), different ways to combine elements besides just the blast, etc.

5 elements (maybe 6 if we add in a positive plane like you suggest) gives a lot of options already. Many more than most PF2 classes get to begin with. If we add class archetypes for alignment planes and exotic aspect of elements you get even more. New elements really aren't that needed.

Expand on the concept? Well: New ways to use the talents, different ways to interact with action economy, expanded abilities, variable feats (works one way for 1 element but another way for another), different ways to combine elements besides just the blast, etc.

5 elements (maybe 6 if we add in a positive plane like you suggest) gives a lot of options already. Many more than most PF2 classes get to begin with. If we add class archetypes for alignment planes and exotic aspect of elements you get even more. New elements really aren't that needed.

It would make sense to me, that if they vaguely expand the overall concept to be manipulating of energies rather than elements, future books could add more "traditions" (for lack of a better word coming to my mind right now) such as for alignment or other such things there wouldn't be as much work required as there is for class archetypes. As they stand right now, it looks like the designers want class archetypes to fit multiple different classes and not just change one specific class. They've definitely been future proofed as well for newer classes. Having entire archetypes just for the Kineticist seems like unnecessary work, especially if the class can be designed in a way to allow for those options to exist at some point in the future.

Expand on the concept? Well: New ways to use the talents, different ways to interact with action economy, expanded abilities, variable feats (works one way for 1 element but another way for another), different ways to combine elements besides just the blast, etc.

5 elements (maybe 6 if we add in a positive plane like you suggest) gives a lot of options already. Many more than most PF2 classes get to begin with. If we add class archetypes for alignment planes and exotic aspect of elements you get even more. New elements really aren't that needed.

That isn't really innovating the class though. All of those things will happen as a result of the Kineticist being migrated to a new system, not necessarily because it makes the class itself any different from its 1e counterpart.

Also, as Memyselfishness stated, it's about future proofing the class by setting it up to add more baseline options down the line. I suppose I should have reiterated that myself, but I figured my comment about expanding the class to prevent stagnation suggested as much. I don't expect to see stuff like this done out of the gate. No more than I expected the Summoner to have all Eidolon options from 1e upon its release. Leaving the concept as is without tweaking it in some way to allow for fresh ideas down the line is going to inevitably set the class itself up to have little to no new content at some point in its existence.

And, as much as I love Archetypes, as Memyselfishness said, they should not be the solution for poor class design. PF2 will, hopefully, be a thing for another 10 years before we see another system update. If the Kineticist ends up having ONLY 5 or 6 baked in options and never sees an expansion to its base design in some way, basically requiring the Kineticist to take Archetypes to be interesting, then they will have done the class and it's fans an injustice in doing so.

For the new classes, I don't think Paizo will use the names of the Arcanist, Elementalist, Geomancer, Warpriest, Vigilante, Cavalier, or the like because those are already the names of archetypes in the game for 2E and they would want to avoid confusion caused by such a thing. They have also stated that they are trying to avoid using names (including legacy names from 1st edition) that are too intrinsically tied to any singular culture and that was a statement made in direct regards to the Samurai and the Ninja (I believe Skald would fit into this category, as well). So, if we get a 2E version of those classes, it seems unlikely that they would use those names and would find some other title to call those classes by. I also recall that long ago Eric Mona stated they would never use a two word name for a class in the game and I think if Paizo really wanted to do so would find something that might be more acceptable as a sort of combined/compound word (see Warpriest as an example of this). Additionally, I don't think they would use any names that could lead to accusations of them "copying" WoTC 5E by having anything like a Warlock or Artificer classes. This may even extend to using the names of D&D4E or 3.X classes like the Seeker, Warden, Ardent, Avenger, Battlemind, Crusader, Binder, Incarnate, Totemist, Shadowcaster, Truenamer, Soulknife, Duskblade, Hexblade, Beguiler, Factotum, Swordsage, etc. Nor do I think they will use the titles of 3rd party publisher original classes like the Omdura, Timethief, or others.

The only exceptions I could believe Paizo using for names would be classes that have names with extremely common usage and/or ones they have used before in Pathfinder 1E such as Shaman, Hunter, or possibly even something like Knight, Marshal, Wilder; or if they just cannot figure out a better name and still really see the chance at making a worthy addition to the game with the new class concept and proceed with one of those names, anyway.

On the other hand, I think there is the possibility to redefine what certain older 1E class names might mean with certain names. For example, with the way the new Summoner class in 2E, Paizo could re-use the Spiritualist title for the name of a new class without having to resort to some other name that might be less appropriate for whatever concept they come up with for a new class since we don't need a Spiritualist class that looks like the old 1E version, anymore, since the Summoner stole its gimmick. I think Hunter and Slayer are kind of in this category, too, though not quite as much as the Spiritualist is.

Just for the fun of it, here are some possible class names that have exactly 9 letters that I have not seen mentioned before in this thread (I don't really think they are likely, but they are fun to consider):

Bloodmage
Channeler
Firebrand
Counselor
Harbinger
Trapsmith
Scientist
Visionary

Other possible class names for certain class concepts I thought might work depending on what the new class looks like:

Tactician/Warlord - Shieldmarshal
Samurai/Cavalier - Defender, Guardian
Inquisitor - Abolisher, Exorcist, Confessor

Firebrand is not likely, given that there’s the Firebrands (who I think have an underwhelming name, personally) in the lore.

Firebrands are an organization, and even if a specific class is predominant in an organization, it makes more sense to make organizations into an archetype (or multiple archetypes) just to represent "all sorts of people can be a [foo]."

Since Alchemy is its own system now, separate from Magic, I've had this idea for a (Mad) Scientist-like class whose basic premise was combining both disciplines; in as non-Hybrid Class a manner as possible. Not sure what that could entail, but it seemed interesting. Came up with it some time after Fumbus was revealed as the new Iconic Alchemist and thought Damiel could be the Iconic there. But, that was before we knew that many Iconics would be getting replaced. Lol

Firebrand is not likely, given that there’s the Firebrands (who I think have an underwhelming name, personally) in the lore.

Firebrands are an organization, and even if a specific class is predominant in an organization, it makes more sense to make organizations into an archetype (or multiple archetypes) just to represent "all sorts of people can be a [foo]."

Yep, I'm aware. I just included it because I thought it was amusing. Just like how I also find it amusing that Abolisher and Confessor are both 9 letters long, too.

Alchemist Unleashed. XD

Since Alchemy is its own system now, separate from Magic, I've had this idea for a (Mad) Scientist-like class whose basic premise was combining both disciplines; in as non-Hybrid Class a manner as possible. Not sure what that could entail, but it seemed interesting. Came up with it some time after Fumbus was revealed as the new Iconic Alchemist and thought Damiel could be the Iconic there. But, that was before we knew that many Iconics would be getting replaced. Lol

I definitely would be all for a book that expands alchemy to be more than such a consumable-focused class. I bet they could make several classes that main alchemy but are totally different from alchemists or existing martials/casters.

Same. I would hope it did for Alchemy what SoM does for Magic; diving into the specific teachings and philosophies of the discipline and how it both relates and stands apart from Magic. In fact, I would love if they found a way to include real-world alchemical principles in-game, such as our own emphasis of the Classical Elements and other concepts deeply accosiacted with historical Alchemical philosophy. Would be a fantastic read.

I think that would be an important step in general too.

One problem with Alchemy right now is that it's a very self contained system. Alchemists and Alchemical Investigators are the only classes that directly interact with it (and investigators only get to make certain items).

So any big improvements/additions to alchemy feel very class specific right now, which imo makes it harder to devote a lot of space to.

Agreed improvements on Alchemy would be good. While also bringing back the magical alchemy would also be good.

Yea. The system doesn't do a very good job at relaying the fact that anyone can use Crafting to make Alchemical Items. Alchemy is really painted as being the specific wheelhouse of the Alchemist and Investigator; when really, they are just the experts in the field. The utter lack of generalized options outside of those two Classes doesn't really help. In order to do it effectively, one has to take a MC Dedication or a more general Archetype, like Herbalist or Poisoner. Some General Feats that allow for a bit more support outside of Archetypes could go a long way to making it a bit more useful. That said, some more Archetypes that focus on Alchemy in more unique ways would be nice as well. Likewise, more kinds of Alchemical Items outside of the typical examples would help to broaden Alchemy a lot; especially some non-consumable or multiple use options would be great. Alchemical (and Magical) Grafts, Alchemical Ammunition, (non-consumable) Alchemical Weapons (and weapons that deliver Alchemical Items, like the Syringe Spear), Alchemical (and Magic) Alcohol (for those Brewmasters), Alchemic Devices (to combine Alchemy with the theme of the Inventor). Could even take a page from Starfinder and have a category of items that combine Magic and Alchemy is some unique way. Just a few ideas. The grafts are the one thing I want more than anything.

Spoiler omitted

Meant to reply to this and forgot. I suppose the only thing I'll really say about it is that it is a bit unfortunate if they stick to some of these principles. I could give a few reasons why I feel like doing so may be missteps on their part and overall creatively stifling; but they are largely opinions I think may come off too harshly, for lack of a better work, and probably wouldn't really contribute to the conversation. Thus, I'll keep them to myself and just say that I hope they don't hold themselves to some these ideals too firmly.