Secrets of Magic Playtest!

Any word whether these playtest classes will be showing up in Herolab?

Raise Tome you say? It's time to tip the scales!

...This very silly thing makes me extremely happy.

Yeah, I read that and went... What? Who's blocking a greatsword with spellbook?

EDIT: I wonder... Since a witch's familiar is their spellbook, can a parry blows with a ferret if it's my familiar?

The Raven Black wrote:

Spellcaster MC dedication on Magus sounds good at first glance.

It is, though you can get some of the same effect via Martial Caster. Maybe too good.

I'm really not convinced Magus has enough basic spell slots to really do the thing they seem to be aiming for. Multiclassing really helps with that, but should probably not be as good or necessary as it looks like it might be.

Worries me and my group are having as well; Multi-classing seems TOO good of an option, and Martial Caster might be near mandatory to accomplish the theme of the class. Cantrips and other spell sources will surely help, but not with feats requiring 'non-cantrip spells' to accomplish their effect. I'm still willing to playtest it out and see for sure but my knee-jerk reaction is to question the extreme slot limitation (while loving everything else about the class so far).

Just did a search for Spellstrike on the pdf and I am now pretty sure Striking Spell was initially called Spellstrike in the document. I wonder why it was changed.

Just did a search for Spellstrike on the pdf and I am now pretty sure Striking Spell was initially called Spellstrike in the document. I wonder why it was changed.

Oh interesting, good find!

Raise Tome you say? It's time to tip the scales!

...This very silly thing makes me extremely happy.

Question is: Who is supposed to use that feat? One Magus type is an archer, one wants a free hand and one uses a two-handed weapon.

And all sillyness (and awesomeness) aside, you're basically paying a class feat to gain Raise Shield with some minor skill check bonus.

Nitro~Nina wrote:

Raise Tome you say? It's time to tip the scales!

...This very silly thing makes me extremely happy.

Question is: Who is supposed to use that feat? One Magus type is an archer, one wants a free hand and one uses a two-handed weapon.

And all sillyness (and awesomeness) aside, you're basically paying a class feat to gain Raise Shield with some minor skill check bonus.

The punching magus I guess.

Nitro~Nina wrote:

Raise Tome you say? It's time to tip the scales!

...This very silly thing makes me extremely happy.

Yeah, I read that and went... What? Who's blocking a greatsword with spellbook?

Me, very soon, just after casting Lightning Bolt and yelling "THORON" at the top of my lungs. Combine with Juggler for maximum yesness.

More seriously, don't underestimate how sturdy a few inches of steel and leather can be. This ain't just a book; it's a Tome. I mean, you technically could go for the scrappy notebook aesthetic and pick this option, but it's also just real offputting to fight someone too busy reading to care.

This pairs well with Weapon Improviser too, so you can force your reading preferences on your foes in the worst possible way with your doorstopper of a novel. Garnish with fun incantations like "It's quite an ELECTRIFYING read!" or "Chapter Twenty will BLOW YOU AWAY!" to taste.

What's going on with the spell slots of these classes? The spell tables seem to say the classes lose access to lower level spells as they rise in level and basically only ever have 4 spells per day. That can't be right, can it?

No that seems to be correct.

What's going on with the spell slots of these classes? The spell tables seem to say the classes lose access to lower level spells as they rise in level and basically only ever have 4 spells per day. That can't be right, can it?

No, that's correct for these two Classes. If it playtests poorly they may change it, but it's true at the moment.

Seltiyel is wearing a SHIRT??? I am offended

What's going on with the spell slots of these classes? The spell tables seem to say the classes lose access to lower level spells as they rise in level and basically only ever have 4 spells per day. That can't be right, can it?

It is correct for the Summoner, the Magius seems to be in discussion.

Seems like a very weird concept. Hm.

Raise Tome you say? It's time to tip the scales!

...This very silly thing makes me extremely happy.

That was my first thought too. The real drag though is that the one-handed magus stuff wants you to have a free hand to make it work, which means no levin sword + tome combo.

What's going on with the spell slots of these classes? The spell tables seem to say the classes lose access to lower level spells as they rise in level and basically only ever have 4 spells per day. That can't be right, can it?

That's the price we pay for the Gish lifestyle, I'm afraid. I'd take this over a Warpriest-a-like anyday, but it does look like the Magus is going to be relying primarily on cantrips for its striking spell. Which is honestly fair; it's still more versatile than PF1's spellstrike and I like the fact that it's not restrictive outside of the slots issue.

Nitro~Nina wrote:

Raise Tome you say? It's time to tip the scales!

...This very silly thing makes me extremely happy.

That was my first thought too. The real drag though is that the one-handed magus stuff wants you to have a free hand to make it work, which means no levin sword + tome combo.

Hm, that's fair. The Juggle feat is certainly helpful there, which is honestly pretty on-point for our favourite tomeslinger. Technically speaking it'd be the sword hand that's the free one based on Juggle's restrictions, but that matches the image well enough. It's a shame about the rarity; not that I was planning to play Robin in PFS or anything, but I love how that style of casting is now a part of the game.

I definitely think that Magus are all about the cantrip-Striking Spells, even more than other classes their spell slots are BIG MOMENTS.

A good quality martial strike and an on-level spell is a very good turn by any classes standards.

I really like how these classes work on first glance.

I like the aesthetic, especially since even ignoring that example, spellcasters with tomes are pretty common in other fiction, but it's such a bad idea in PF2. Hope we get more feats playing with the idea.

At first read-through I'm loving the Summoner concepts. The Eidolon and Summoner sharing their fate is great. My big question is if "act together" can be used as one action in a multi-action activity. So, could I use act together to help cast a 3 action spell (you know, like summoning!)? That is going to make or break a lot for me.

The lack of summoning for the Summoner is a bit of a let down, was hoping for some focus pool summoning stuff more than this. But then I'm good with what we have for the playtest as long as it is built out for more summoning specialties in the real deal.

The overall concept of the Eidolons are fantastic. Love that each feels unique and they have customizable weapons. Bravo!

I can't wait to get to making the character and playing. Really hope we can play in Society play though. Unfortunately with COVID my group doesn't play much lately, but I have begun playing more Society games online.

Just did a search for Spellstrike on the pdf and I am now pretty sure Striking Spell was initially called Spellstrike in the document. I wonder why it was changed.

My guess would be that it became a metamagic action, so it was renamed to be consistent with the titles of other metamagic feats/abilities. Not every metamagic action has the "X Spell" but enough do that it seems to be a conscious decision.

Zaister wrote:

What's going on with the spell slots of these classes? The spell tables seem to say the classes lose access to lower level spells as they rise in level and basically only ever have 4 spells per day. That can't be right, can it?

It is correct for the Summoner, the Magius seems to be in discussion.

I was wondering about this too. As these would be the only class to lose spells as they level.

Justin Franklin wrote:

Zaister wrote:

What's going on with the spell slots of these classes? The spell tables seem to say the classes lose access to lower level spells as they rise in level and basically only ever have 4 spells per day. That can't be right, can it?

It is correct for the Summoner, the Magius seems to be in discussion.

I was wondering about this too. As these would be the only class to lose spells as they level.

How would they lose spells? Magus can still prepare lower level spells in higher slots, and summoner gets all spells as signature spells so they can cast them via their higher level slots.

Azouth wrote:

Justin Franklin wrote:

Zaister wrote:

What's going on with the spell slots of these classes? The spell tables seem to say the classes lose access to lower level spells as they rise in level and basically only ever have 4 spells per day. That can't be right, can it?

It is correct for the Summoner, the Magius seems to be in discussion.

I was wondering about this too. As these would be the only class to lose spells as they level.

How would they lose spells? Magus can still prepare lower level spells in higher slots, and summoner gets all spells as signature spells so they can cast them via their higher level slots.

Well the magius losses spell slots.

The summoner loses spells in there repertoire.

"At 3rd level, your repertoire grows to four spells of
your choice of any spell level you can cast , though you
must always know at least one spell you can cast using
your lower-level slots. "

The way I read this:
1st: 5 cantrips 2 1st
2nd 5 cantrips 2 1st (can change from first)
3rd 5 cantrips and at least one first, 3 of 1st or 2nd
4rd 5 cantrips and at least one first, 3 of 1st or 2nd (same but can change)
5rd 5 cantrips and at least one second, 3 of 2st or 3rd (only 4 spell not a cantrip)

See you don't have 1st level spells past 5th level as it is "four spells of your choice of any spell level you can cast" and you can't cast 1st.

My group and I are new to playtesting, but a few of us have a vested interest in the classes being tested and want to do our parts in making them the best they can be. My question is if anyone has recommendations for some good scenerios that can be ran to playtest these classes (possibly multiples with different builds in the same party)?

My group and I are new to playtesting, but a few of us have a vested interest in the classes being tested and want to do our parts in making them the best they can be. My question is if anyone has recommendations for some good scenerios that can be ran to playtest these classes (possibly multiples with different builds in the same party)?

Don't know if it is good (i have not played or read it) but it is free Pathfinder Adventure Little Trouble in Big Absalom. No reason the classes can't be kobolds.

I don't think I understand how Synthesis works, and what the pros and cons would be. Can someone explain it to me?

You seem to loose your ability to cast spells, use Act Together (Which is your main source of action efficiency), and probably other things, in exchange for loosing your disadvantage on area-of-effect spells that would have hit both of you. ... and very little else?

-> Limited Spell Level Slots.

NOPE

Look, I'm fine with fewer per day for balance, but not NONE per day. This was tried in an optional hardcover for PF1. It should have been forgotten after that. Thought it had been forgotten.

-> Limited Spell Level Slots.

NOPE

Look, I'm fine with fewer per day for balance, but not NONE per day.

?

The former is what's being done, or am I misunderstanding?

james014Aura wrote:

-> Limited Spell Level Slots.

NOPE

Look, I'm fine with fewer per day for balance, but not NONE per day.

?

The former is what's being done, or am I misunderstanding?

The dashes in the document. Aside from using lower level spells in higher slots, it's that thing where you don't get any spells of a level lower than something near your highest. As in, by progressing in magic, you basically lose the lower-level slots.

They're doing both the former (cap at 2 instead of 4), but ALSO the latter (removing lower level slots almost completely).

I don't think I understand how Synthesis works, and what the pros and cons would be. Can someone explain it to me?

You seem to loose your ability to cast spells, use Act Together (Which is your main source of action efficiency), and probably other things, in exchange for loosing your disadvantage on area-of-effect spells that would have hit both of you. ... and very little else?

What disadvantage on area-of-effect spells that would hit both of you? The information on the Eidolon says you and your Eidolon are only affected once if a spell or aoe would affect both of you, taking the worst effect/damage of the two.

The information on the Eidolon says you and your Eidolon are only affected once if a spell or aoe would affect both of you, taking the worst effect/damage of the two.

That's how Disadvantage works in 5E, roll twice and take the worst result. I assume that's what's meant.

Kalobi wrote:

Azouth wrote:

Justin Franklin wrote:

Zaister wrote:

What's going on with the spell slots of these classes? The spell tables seem to say the classes lose access to lower level spells as they rise in level and basically only ever have 4 spells per day. That can't be right, can it?

It is correct for the Summoner, the Magius seems to be in discussion.

I was wondering about this too. As these would be the only class to lose spells as they level.

How would they lose spells? Magus can still prepare lower level spells in higher slots, and summoner gets all spells as signature spells so they can cast them via their higher level slots.

Well the magius losses spell slots.

The summoner loses spells in there repertoire.

"At 3rd level, your repertoire grows to four spells of
your choice of any spell level you can cast , though you
must always know at least one spell you can cast using
your lower-level slots. "

The way I read this:
1st: 5 cantrips 2 1st
2nd 5 cantrips 2 1st (can change from first)
3rd 5 cantrips and at least one first, 3 of 1st or 2nd
4rd 5 cantrips and at least one first, 3 of 1st or 2nd (same but can change)
5rd 5 cantrips and at least one second, 3 of 2st or 3rd (only 4 spell not a cantrip)

See you don't have 1st level spells past 5th level as it is "four spells of your choice of any spell level you can cast" and you can't cast 1st.

At level 3 when they start getting new spell levels, they also gain

so even when they lose 1st level slots, they can still cast those spells, so they don't lose them, they just technically now know them at a higher level.

Azouth wrote:

Kalobi wrote:

Azouth wrote:

Justin Franklin wrote:

Zaister wrote:

What's going on with the spell slots of these classes? The spell tables seem to say the classes lose access to lower level spells as they rise in level and basically only ever have 4 spells per day. That can't be right, can it?

It is correct for the Summoner, the Magius seems to be in discussion.

I was wondering about this too. As these would be the only class to lose spells as they level.

How would they lose spells? Magus can still prepare lower level spells in higher slots, and summoner gets all spells as signature spells so they can cast them via their higher level slots.

Well the magius losses spell slots.

The summoner loses spells in there repertoire.

"At 3rd level, your repertoire grows to four spells of
your choice of any spell level you can cast , though you
must always know at least one spell you can cast using
your lower-level slots. "

The way I read this:
1st: 5 cantrips 2 1st
2nd 5 cantrips 2 1st (can change from first)
3rd 5 cantrips and at least one first, 3 of 1st or 2nd
4rd 5 cantrips and at least one first, 3 of 1st or 2nd (same but can change)
5rd 5 cantrips and at least one second, 3 of 2st or 3rd (only 4 spell not a cantrip)

See you don't have 1st level spells past 5th level as it is "four spells of your choice of any spell level you can cast" and you can't cast 1st.

At level 3 when they start getting new spell levels, they also gain

"Signature Spells 3rd
All of your spells are signature spells. That means that if you know a spell that can be heightened, you can heighten it freely, up to the maximum level of spell you can cast"

so even when they lose 1st level slots, they can still cast those spells, so they don't lose them, they just technically now know them at a higher level.

The thing about all your spells being signature spells is a bit misleading as you only have 2 levels worth of spell. Your max level spell and the one lower then that. So as you only have 4 spells (not counting cantrips) you are at most going to be able to increase 4 spells by one level.

cjgrimm wrote:

Azouth wrote:

Kalobi wrote:

Azouth wrote:

Justin Franklin wrote:

Zaister wrote:

What's going on with the spell slots of these classes? The spell tables seem to say the classes lose access to lower level spells as they rise in level and basically only ever have 4 spells per day. That can't be right, can it?

It is correct for the Summoner, the Magius seems to be in discussion.

I was wondering about this too. As these would be the only class to lose spells as they level.

How would they lose spells? Magus can still prepare lower level spells in higher slots, and summoner gets all spells as signature spells so they can cast them via their higher level slots.

Well the magius losses spell slots.

The summoner loses spells in there repertoire.

"At 3rd level, your repertoire grows to four spells of
your choice of any spell level you can cast , though you
must always know at least one spell you can cast using
your lower-level slots. "

The way I read this:
1st: 5 cantrips 2 1st
2nd 5 cantrips 2 1st (can change from first)
3rd 5 cantrips and at least one first, 3 of 1st or 2nd
4rd 5 cantrips and at least one first, 3 of 1st or 2nd (same but can change)
5rd 5 cantrips and at least one second, 3 of 2st or 3rd (only 4 spell not a cantrip)

See you don't have 1st level spells past 5th level as it is "four spells of your choice of any spell level you can cast" and you can't cast 1st.

At level 3 when they start getting new spell levels, they also gain

"Signature Spells 3rd
All of your spells are signature spells. That means that if you know a spell that can be heightened, you can heighten it freely, up to the maximum level of spell you can cast"

so even when they lose 1st level slots, they can still cast those spells, so they don't lose them, they just technically now know them at a higher level.

The thing about all your spells being signature spells is a bit misleading as you only have 2...

Yep I see it now, I misunderstood that one line at the end of Spell repetoire. Makes no sense you can only ever know 4 spells at a time.

Also, why is the playtest window so short this time? The APG playtest was 2 months and even that blog post called it short, this one is a month and a week?

Also, why is the playtest window so short this time? The APG playtest was 2 months and even that blog post called it short, this one is a month and a week?

Maybe because the APG had 4 classes and this has only 2? Don't know just a thought.

They can also completely change their spell known each levels without retraining.

I definitely think that Magus are all about the cantrip-Striking Spells, even more than other classes their spell slots are BIG MOMENTS.

A good quality martial strike and an on-level spell is a very good turn by any classes standards.

I really like how these classes work on first glance.

Unfortunately the math has been run, and those "big" moments will fail 3/4 times.

vagrant-poet wrote:

I definitely think that Magus are all about the cantrip-Striking Spells, even more than other classes their spell slots are BIG MOMENTS.

A good quality martial strike and an on-level spell is a very good turn by any classes standards.

I really like how these classes work on first glance.

Unfortunately the math has been run, and those "big" moments will fail 3/4 times.

I half wonder if the striking spell was supposed to benefit from item bonuses and that text slipped out. Item bonuses are why normal martials cap at Master and casters at Legendary, with that feature in play then the Magus's accuracy would be just fine without giving them equal-to-the-wizard casting on non-spellstrikes.

Angel Hunter D wrote:

vagrant-poet wrote:

I definitely think that Magus are all about the cantrip-Striking Spells, even more than other classes their spell slots are BIG MOMENTS.

A good quality martial strike and an on-level spell is a very good turn by any classes standards.

I really like how these classes work on first glance.

Unfortunately the math has been run, and those "big" moments will fail 3/4 times.

I half wonder if the striking spell was supposed to benefit from item bonuses and that text slipped out. Item bonuses are why normal martials cap at Master and casters at Legendary, with that feature in play then the Magus's accuracy would be just fine without giving them equal-to-the-wizard casting on non-spellstrikes.

That would definitely help with tht problem. I'm not sure it would solve the issue, I don't have the spreadsheet, but my educated guess is the second attack roll is still a net negative and has significant miss chance even if it did get item bonuses to hit.

Arachnofiend wrote:

Angel Hunter D wrote:

vagrant-poet wrote:

I definitely think that Magus are all about the cantrip-Striking Spells, even more than other classes their spell slots are BIG MOMENTS.

A good quality martial strike and an on-level spell is a very good turn by any classes standards.

I really like how these classes work on first glance.

Unfortunately the math has been run, and those "big" moments will fail 3/4 times.

I half wonder if the striking spell was supposed to benefit from item bonuses and that text slipped out. Item bonuses are why normal martials cap at Master and casters at Legendary, with that feature in play then the Magus's accuracy would be just fine without giving them equal-to-the-wizard casting on non-spellstrikes.

That would definitely help with tht problem. I'm not sure it would solve the issue, I don't have the spreadsheet, but my educated guess is the second attack roll is still a net negative and has significant miss chance even if it did get item bonuses to hit.

I got chu fam

https://imgur.com/UJ43h8G

Edit: And yes, a +1 to +3 depending on your weapon isn't going to fix all the bad math that goes into spell attacks for the Magus.

I don't think I understand how Synthesis works, and what the pros and cons would be. Can someone explain it to me?

You seem to loose your ability to cast spells, use Act Together (Which is your main source of action efficiency), and probably other things, in exchange for loosing your disadvantage on area-of-effect spells that would have hit both of you. ... and very little else?

It's somewhat useful if you have a mobile eidolon and you yourself is not.

For example, most of the time your eidolon will be about 3-4 points ahead of you on Athletics. If you want to climb somewhere, you can use Synthesis, climb there as the eidolon, and then un-merge at the top.

For example, most of the time your eidolon will be about 3-4 points ahead of you on Athletics. If you want to climb somewhere, you can use Synthesis, climb there as the eidolon, and then un-merge at the top.

Or you could ride it up, or you could have it climb up and drop a rope, or you could let it climb up and you cast transpose, or... I'm not really coming up with something in exploration mode you'd use it for that you can't do without it.

We got a new Iconic for the Summoner. Why?

Honestly not remotely surprised, was expecting Balazar & Padrig for a Sarkorian Godcaller but at the same time I thought they were going to be replaced by was going to be Alase Brinz-Widowknife & Tonbarse.

There is a typo on page 11, under the Runic Impression. There is a missing 'I' on the word 'if'. :)

Was really excited for both these classes, but the Magus is immensely dissapointing and should have just been an archetype (and will be at my table if it doesn't change).

The Summoner on the other hand looks baller (possibly too much?) and I very much want to play one.

As a huge fan of bloodragers, I'm very intrigued by the Sustaining Steel Synthesis.

Michael Sayre designer credit noted.