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AndIMustMask wrote:

so wait, the wizard is supposed to be the flexible one, and the sorcerer the rigid?

i could have sworn it was supposed to be the other way around, between the wizard needing to choose strict school limits, pre-prepare their spells for the day, and requiring a lengthy process to change that, while the sorcerer can cast what they need as they need it (previously balanced by narrower list and more per day).

i still need to look over the sorcerer changes, but boy, having the other arcane class have equal spells/day, free heightening as they please, a much wider spell base and a fast swapping process, i'm not particularly seeing much incentive to actually choose a sorcerer over a wizard (to say nothing of however it compares to druids/clerics/bards now). it doesn't even seem like a competition.

This has more or less always been the case with the sorcerer regardless of edition. The Sorcerer has always been a test bed for new ideas handicapped from overcaution. Honestly at this point they may as well wrap the arcane sorcerer back into the Wizard and bring back the Mage class. Just have bloodlines be alternatives to Schools. Everything can go Arcanist style casting because unless Paizo sits down and does major work on the Sorcerer its just not worth having. Right now the Sorcerer has to compare against 4 primary spellcasters and its doesn't stack up well against any them.


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I have grave concerns if Paizo thinks Quick Prep is balanced, let alone should be for free. I laughed when prior to the playtest releasing it was said some of the designers thought the Sorcerer was more powerful than the Wizard. The Sorcerer's history has been to red-headed step child to the Wizard since it debuted as its own class in 3e. Nothing has changed save the fact the class now gets to be the red-head step child to the Bard, Cleric, and Druid now as well.

I love the class and its always been the type of caster I want to play but its been the test bed for new ideas that have always error on the side of overcaution and left the class as definitively weaker than its peers. The only saving grace as been being a full caster meant you were strong anyway in previous editions.

Frankly I think they should just roll the arcane Sorcerer into the Wizard and have bloodlines as another option instead of schools then change every caster to arcanist style.

After this I have zero confidence that there will be balance among the Wizard and Sorcerer let alone the other 3 primary casters of Occult, Primal, and Divine. Trying to balance 1 class against 4 others are going to require a lot more TLC than I think Paizo has the time/ability to give.

I hate to say this because I love the idea of the Sorcerer, I love how in 2e it can have different spell lists. Still I just don't see how Paizo can pull this off without major work into the class.


I love this idea. I also agree that this should also have built in benefits with Proficiency.

Take MakeItStop's weapon attack for example.

Success: You deal damage normally.
Crit +2: You deal an additional damage die on top of the normal damage.
Failure: You deal no damage.
Botch -4: You drop your weapon and are filled with immense shame at your failure.

Here would could have proficiency actually add something beyond +1 like.

Trained: You no longer drop your weapon on a botch -4, instead you are flat-footed until the start of your next turn.
Expert: You are no longer flat-footed on a botch -4 attack roll.
Master: You may reroll your attack roll at a -2 penalty. Max 1 turn.
Legendary: You may reroll your attack roll at a no penalty. Max 1 turn.

I'd like to actually feel more like I'm getting better as I level.


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Honestly I think Retribution Strike should just go. It's not that its weak, because its potentially quite strong. It's an interesting idea but there is just a whole host of issues around it that make it ill-suited to be the Paladin's defining class feature.

Off the top of my head
-It overwhelmingly favors reach weapons atm.

-It doesn't work with even some Paladin deities favored weapons. Paladin's of Erastil, sorry guys either use Erastil's favored weapon and lose these feature or take a melee weapon even if it isn't ideal for roleplaying. Its understandable though, because ranged weapons + ret strike wouldn't be balanced.

-It forces the Paladin to act as a 4th edition defender. It forces the whole class into a reactionary playstyle which some people will hate. I don't feel this is give me a tool kit and I'll pick how I want to play, instead this makes the class feel very much like 'you will play the Paladin this way.'

-Its use is highly dependent on the positioning and the DM giving you opportunities to use it. If the DM wants to deny you too many opportunities they can.

-Its worth will vary from table to table based on party compositions and DMs. That also means whatever assumptions Mark, Jacob, and crew are using to balance this ability are ultimately wrong, because assumptions are just assumptions and won't be accurate table to table.

-Limits room for abilities like Smite Evil because if you overload the class with offensive powers its likely going to be too strong.

-If you succeed if actually tanking and taking the hits, you effectively lose you class feature for that round + any class feats you invested into it. Somehow this is considered to be ideal?

-If you want to actually use Ret Strike you are hoping for one of your party members to be attacked. That is kind of a disconnect between what a guardian should actually be wanting which seems to be how Paizo wants people to see the Paladin.

-Action Economy. The Paladin potentially has a lot of features competing for a reaction.

IMO I think Paizo would be better served by scraping Ret Strike or making it a feat than the class defining feature. If Paizo does then it opens up a whole lot of room to accommodate different playstyles rather than marrying the class to one idea, supported by a clunky class feature.


Wouldn't that be wasted if you crit with your last action that turn?


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I honestly feel like you can add Radiant Blade Master in as well. Both the level 20 capstone feats are pretty underwhelming. Spellcasters are getting level 10 spells, Fighters are getting perma-haste and you can add....keen to your righteous ally choices.


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I have to agree with OP. The class feels too reactive.

Paladin's should be about seeking out evil and smiting it. Ret. Strike should either be a feat or a class component but not the defining feature of the class.

Ret Strike simply put
-makes the class very reactive.
-largely favored reach weapons, over more classical weapon types like the longsword.
-Flat out says ranged weapons can't play (sorry Paladins of Erastil).

That's pretty restrictive.

Also as a side note, does anyone else feel like the Paladin's focus on armor is just screaming for there to be a Radiant Spirit tied to armor? It feels like a big obvious hole to me.


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Honestly I think the solution to how best to handle Spontaneous Heightening is really easy.

The Sorcerer can replace one of their Spontaneous Heightening spells for the cost of 2 spell points.

This would

1.) Make the ability feel more spontaneous, fitting the Sorcerer's theme.

2.) Not give Sorcerer's the ability to heighten everything reducing balance concerns.

3.) Have an opportunity cost because these is the equivalent of spending 1 to 2 uses of their auto-heightening bloodline abilities.

It would make sense to me on a fluff level as well, since the Sorcerer is expending the energy from their bloodline to open up the potential of one of their spells.


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Gavmania wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
Though calling them "bloodline powers" is a joke.
Does that mean Fey Bloodlines get Bloodline flowers? :D

No it means you can resurrect yourself if your party members clap.


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Initial thoughts

*Bloodline = spell list. I love this, this is absolutely fantastic.

*Bloodline Powers. Personally I'm a little underwhelmed by the one's previewed. Is it flavorful? Absolutely, but how useful is it? Having a backup weapon would basically do most of what Glutton's Jaws do.

The real question is will Bloodline Powers + Spontaneous Casting be enough to mechanically keep the Sorcerer on par to other full casters like the Cleric or Wizard, with there greater spell versatility and own domain/school powers?

*Spontaneous Heightening. I understand why Paizo is afraid to let Sorcs heighten anything but there absolutely needs to be a way in the Core Rulebook to expand this. I mean some options will be a no brainer like Dispel Magic. Most players will gravitate to whats best in most encounters for day to day usage so I could easily see one or two very good spells reserving those Spontaneous Heightening slots, limiting experimentation and builds.

Secondly as we get expansion products keeping the Sorcerer so limited for their entire career is going to get more and more obvious as other spellcasters can more easily add new spells known to experiment with while Sorcs will still be in the mindset of whats the biggest bang for your buck on each spell level.


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Thebazilly wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Lockewood wrote:
In Mr. Seifter's own words; "There's no longer any need to learn long chains of spells that are incrementally different and each require you to refer back to the previous spell."
The context here of "require you to refer back to the previous spell" I hoped made it clear way back in that blog, but it seems not (you're not the first to mention this), so to clarify: The "you" in this quote who is learning what spells do and referencing other spells is you, the player.

So... Summon Monster is still 9 spells, but the Wizard gets all 9 for the price of 1 and the Sorcerer has to spend their Spontaneous Heighten to get the same effect?

Could Sorcerers just use spell points to Heighten spells instead?

Pretty much.

Since the Sorcerer is so restricted on their number of spells known, they absolutely should be the masters of the spells they do know.

At the VERY least there should a feat that lets them increase the # of spells they can spontaneously heighten or maybe some feature that starts them out at 2 then get +1 for each level of TEML they move up.


Monster Hunter/Slayer

Its an archetype that'd be useful to every class out there. Any class should be able to be trained to identify and exploit monster weaknesses.


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Mbertorch wrote:

I still like the concept of Occult spell list for Sorcerers. Not so sure why, other than it's different than Wizards. Maybe the vibe it gives Sorcerers? Hmm. Not sure exactly.

Ever since Paizo has spelled out that arcane magic is described as logic, rational thought, and categories in the 'All About Spells' blog I can't help but feel arcane feels like a poor fit for Sorcerers.

I fully expect Sorcerers (and perhaps Bards) will remain arcane but when I read that description is made it pretty clear that arcane magic was solely being based on Wizard traditions without much thought to the other traditionally arcane spellcasters. If the spontaneous arcane casters do remain where they are at it will feel like a square peg trying to fit into a round hole. If ever Paizo were going to try and make these classes more now would be the time.


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I tend to agree with QuidEst on this. The problem with Bards have been too much emphasis was put on them being a jack-all-trades class that this eventually became the class identity. A bard apparently needs to be a skill monkey (but not as good as Rogue), a caster (but not as good as Wizard) but somehow is Arcane and can heal (not as good as cleric), can fight (but not as good as a Full BAB class), etc all while somehow being able to play music and being loremasters.

I'd love if 2nd edition focused on giving Bard a more firm identity with its own flavor. If making the Bard Occult does that, then I'm good with that. Frankly I think an Occultist like Bard that can store resonance in their instruments to create different spell like effects would be an interesting idea.


I want 4 things

1.) Full BAB, 1-4 extract level caster based around mutagens. (Let me make Geralt!)

2.) 1/2 BAB Full divine caster

3.) Warlord

4.) Warlock


Deadmanwalking wrote:

But, but, how can anyone not like the Investigator? Or the Slayer?

Frankly I'm a bit disappointed in the Slayer, that practically nothing was done to after playtest 2. In fact it lost an advanced talent. Really the Slayer needed some nice new talents to better give it its own features rather than copy/paste which 90% of the class really is. Most of the work on the Slayer was done before it ever entered the design phase. That's not to say its not functional though.

master_marshmallow wrote:
Exploiter wizard is still the best class in existence, because it can do all the things that people were afraid would break the arcanist on the chassis of the wizard class.

Yeah if any class should have gotten exploits of the Arcanist's parents then it should have been the Sorcerer. They could have used it considering everyone can take the major of their class features with either Eldritch Heritage or now the new bloodline amulets.


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Wolfgang Rolf wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Wolfgang Rolf wrote:
Eldritch Scrapper, as far as I can tell you won't be doing any scrapping with this archetype. Not calling it useless just misleading, and gaining arcane strike through martial flexibility just adds to the absurdity of it all! Are they really expecting to use melee attacks with your joke of a BAB. This should have been a bloodrager or magus archetype as far as I concerned.
I heard someone mention that is a specific archetype to support people going into dragon disciple.
If thats really true, then that is by far the most niche archetype ever.

Yeah that was my impression when I was told. I still don't have the book but from the spoilers I read, here's my knee jerk reaction: Why play a Sorcerer?

Arcanists can spontaneously cast and has a day to day versatility the Sorcerer will never achieve. They also get vastly more tricks than a Sorcerer does with bloodlines. It also seems most of the Sorcerer's stuff can be gained with either the Eldritch Heritage feat line or the new bloodline amulets. Its stuff is out there for anyone to take to a level beyond even the Fighter has endured.

They can't get a decent bloodline or archetype that significantly adds new and powerful options as a spellcaster. Compare that to the Wizard who in this book alone can play with Arcanist's exploits, the Shaman's stuff, or flat out go cast from completely different spell lists. You'd think that they'd get a bloodline/archetype to play with Exploits like the Wizard but no, instead you get a option to hit things....that works well with a 1/2 BAB class. Any archetype requires multiclassing to work should be questionable.

Right now it seems the only reason to play a Sorc is it gets +1 spell slots max over a specialist Wizard. (Other than RPing of course). That's sad.


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I'm curious what does the Mutation Warrior have to give up from Fighter?

And are there any new discoveries that look good for that archetype?


Necromancer wrote:


DeciusNero wrote:
Any new sorcerer bloodlines?
No new bloodlines, but the bloodrager's bloodlines have been broken into pieces for barbarians to scavenge as rage powers.

Poor Sorcerer. It gets an archetype to be the mutt of sorcerers and then an archetype to punch things from what I understand. I haven't seen it but unarmed melee attacks just don't seem like a good idea for 1/2 BAB d6 HD. It can't even get a freaking Arcanist bloodline.

Meanwhile the Wizard is taking spells from other class lists, and playing with Arcanist Exploits, Hexes, and Shaman spirits. With all that and the new Arcanist why do we even have the Sorcerer again? Heck you can even take a lot of the Sorcs class features with Eldritch Heritage but the poor Sorc can't get anything to improve its casting?

I'd really like to know what there isn't at least an Arcanist bloodline.


It would be nice, but adding Combat Style as an option isn't going suddenly make the Rogue that much more attractive. Other than that most of the Slayer talents in the we have seen are either Rogue talents or as weak as Rogue talents and I don't believe they added any new ones.


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Kudaku wrote:

Last set of reveals for the night, I really need to crash (so I can read in bed! Yay!).

The Sorcerer gets two new archetypes:

The amazingly named Eldritch Scrapper focuses on mixing the Brawler's talent for mayhem with natural attacks.
The Mongrel Mage (not making this up, I swear) is a sorcerer that has a weaker mix of different bloodlines instead of a single powerful bloodline.

The Wizard gets three new archetypes:

The Exploiter Wizard gets in on the arcanist racket, gaining an arcane reservoir and arcanist exploits. I expect this to be a popular Wizard archetype.
The Spell Sage eschews the traditional focus on schools and instead studies specific spells and the spellcasting techniques of other classes, which allows him to tap into their spell lists (at a hefty action economy cost) a few times a day.
The Spirit Whisperer Wizard mixes witch and shaman elements - he gains a spellbook familiar like a witch, and a spirit link.

So the Wizard can play with the Arcanist's stuff but not the Sorcerer? So lame. There goes the chance to play the type of Sorc I've wanted to play since I first read about the class in 3.0. <sigh>

Being able to use your innate connection to magic to bend the rules of magic? Nope. Exploits would be considered knowledge and the Sorc is the dumb brute of magic. But hey here's an archetype to punch people because that will go great with your 1/2 BAB you dumb brute Sorc.

/rant

Sorry. Thank you for the information Kudaku its great of you.


Scavion wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Lazurin Arborlon wrote:
Just curious , you seem to be pretty pointedly not commenting on all the suggestions for ways to either synergies abilities with SA or add talents that would improve its success rate. Is that indicative that the line of thinking is a non starter? It would be nice to know if we are barking up the wrong tree is why I ask. It is definitely a popular opinion, but if it's not going anywhere it's silly for us all to keep bringing it up.
I've made a note of it. The trick is to make it good enough as a default ability that the class can make use of it, but not so good that we'd have to make it a talent (which would make it a "talent tax" because everyone would take it).
One way to do it is just make all the talents good enough that everyone will want all of them like the Barbarian. =P

I would like to see this as well. Since the game treats talents as being roughly equal to feats, I'd like legitimately good options to make me debate whether I want an extra feat or X talent because its very useful and awesome, just like some of the Barbarian options. Do that and you've succeeded. For the most part as it stands now its usually the no brainer to take the feat option.


I'm curious Sean, what's the designers feel at Paizo right now on the Slayer?

Is it considered done or are you guys debating adding certain things?


Scavion wrote:
ArenCordial wrote:

Frankly I just hope Paizo is agreeing with some of the feedback here that the Slayer does need some more distinctive features given the changes in the other classes since in the revision.

Anyway some talent ideas for fun

Talents

Menacing Slayer
When the Slayer hits his Favored Target, he may make an Intimidate check to demoralize his Favored Target. The Slayer gains a bonus on Intimidate checks against hit Favored Target equal to his Favored Target bonus.
(So you don't have to rely on Cornugon Smash, less feat taxes to use your abilities reliably the better)

Advanced Talents

Slayer's Momentum
When the Slayer kills Favored Target he may make an immediate charge attack against another Favored Target in reach.

Still not sure on what type of interaction FT and SA should have

Drop the portion about gaining the bonus to intimidate. Stalker gained at 7th already does that for you.

This makes Ranged Intimidate Attacks pretty cool.

A core Cornugon Smash option is nice.

Ah yes I forgot ty, and of course there should be a once per round limitation.


Frankly I just hope Paizo is agreeing with some of the feedback here that the Slayer does need some more distinctive features given the changes in the other classes since in the revision.

Anyway some talent ideas for fun

Talents

Menacing Slayer
When the Slayer hits his Favored Target, he may make an Intimidate check to demoralize his Favored Target. The Slayer gains a bonus on Intimidate checks against hit Favored Target equal to his Favored Target bonus.
(So you don't have to rely on Cornugon Smash, less feat taxes to use your abilities reliably the better)

Advanced Talents

Slayer's Momentum
When the Slayer kills Favored Target he may make an immediate charge attack against another Favored Target in reach.

Still not sure on what type of interaction FT and SA should have


BigNorseWolf wrote:
ArenCordial wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Aren Cordial wrote:
How sub-optimal is it really? Did the test account for AC differences? Because the playtest I recent ran with some friends(and yes Dex to AC) the Swashbuckler was phenomenal as a melee combatant. He did good damage, had a good AC, and frankly was a very solid build. Granted we ran it at 11th level. He could gain more offense or defense with panache as needed. The only complaint was some of the Deeds were things that would barely if ever get used. (genuine question not trying to be a you know what.)

Running the DPR on that vs a two hander with a slightly higher strength (because they don't need to be a well rounded bowling ball with their stats) they look REALLY close (27 vs 27 and change), which I think puts it around where it should be if dex to damage is in the equation. The swashbuckler has a few tricks and out of combat utility, but a tweaked out two handed fighter should be able to pull away

Mind you, 11 is where this guy really starts to take off. It looks like a fighter for high level play.

That's damage. I figure the Swash would have better AC would it not?


Jiggy wrote:

@Rogue Eidolon — You earlier mentioned switch-hitting being a bad idea; what do you see as the "primary", "default", or otherwise relatively optimized slayer build? Approximations are fine.

Part of me wonders whether it would end up being a STR build that spends a feat on heavy armor and functions as a frontliner (but with skills). But seems kinda wrong.

It does seem wrong and counter to trying to sneak around and set up Sneak Attacks but it might be worth considering. I went around as a THF strength build and man I could have used the extra AC.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Aren Cordial wrote:
How sub-optimal is it really? Did the test account for AC differences? Because the playtest I recent ran with some friends(and yes Dex to AC) the Swashbuckler was phenomenal as a melee combatant. He did good damage, had a good AC, and frankly was a very solid build. Granted we ran it at 11th level. He could gain more offense or defense with panache as needed. The only complaint was some of the Deeds were things that would barely if ever get used. (genuine question not trying to be a you know what.)

What kind of damage were you doing? 1d6 + 11 for level +3 enhancement +2 weapon training +2 specilization?

I wasn't the player. I *think* (key word there)1d6+25

1d6
+5 dex
+3 enh
+2 weapon training
+2 weapon specialization
+2 gloves of dueling (this was wrong currently after asking Stephen but at the time the DM ruled it in and according to Stephen may be on the table )
+11 precise strike

Axe to Grind might have been in there also not sure. I arrived late and didn't get a look at everyone's sheet so I could be off and of course it doesn't count the times he actually spent Panache or Power Attacked.


Scavion wrote:
ArenCordial wrote:
Scavion wrote:
ArenCordial wrote:
Throne wrote:
ArenCordial wrote:
Rogue Eidolon's thoughts mirror my own here. Frankly if Swashbuckler gets Dex to damage then Precise Strike gets way too good.
Dex to damage is not an increase in damage potential. At all.
So if its not having an effect why is it needed?
Reduces MADness. Allows us to have a Dex Based fighter that is actually a Dex Based Fighter.
Sure and I get that. The feat idea doesn't bother me at all. I would be good for a ton of builds. What I said is Precise Strike + Dex to damage might be a bit much.

It isn't however. The Dervish Dance routines have been play tested. Dex to Damage is already a staple of several builds in PFS. You still need a 13 Str for Power Attack if you want good damage.

All Precise Strike pays for is the sub-optimal fencing style.

A 2hander gains so much more from power attack and Strength.

How sub-optimal is it really? Did the test account for AC differences? Because the playtest I recent ran with some friends(and yes Dex to AC) the Swashbuckler was phenomenal as a melee combatant. He did good damage, had a good AC, and frankly was a very solid build. Granted we ran it at 11th level. He could gain more offense or defense with panache as needed. The only complaint was some of the Deeds were things that would barely if ever get used. (genuine question not trying to be a you know what.)


Scavion wrote:
ArenCordial wrote:
Throne wrote:
ArenCordial wrote:
Rogue Eidolon's thoughts mirror my own here. Frankly if Swashbuckler gets Dex to damage then Precise Strike gets way too good.
Dex to damage is not an increase in damage potential. At all.
So if its not having an effect why is it needed?
Reduces MADness. Allows us to have a Dex Based fighter that is actually a Dex Based Fighter.

Sure and I get that. The feat idea doesn't bother me at all. It would be good for a ton of builds. What I said is Precise Strike (as it currently stands) + Dex to damage might be a bit much.


Throne wrote:
ArenCordial wrote:
Rogue Eidolon's thoughts mirror my own here. Frankly if Swashbuckler gets Dex to damage then Precise Strike gets way too good.
Dex to damage is not an increase in damage potential. At all.

So if its not having an effect why is it needed?


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Craft Cheese wrote:
Dispari Scuro wrote:
Craft Cheese wrote:

I don't think Dex-to-damage is worth a feat, let alone two, for the same reasons I don't like Dervish Dance. Why?

Imagine there were two feats that replaced Dex with Strength for your reflex saves, AC (following the same armor limitations as Dex), and Initiative. Would you take them?

Barbarian says hello.
Really? Cause I could go for two extra helpings of Extra Rage Power on any Barbarian build I can think of. And even then, I'd only take them after I'd gotten the essentials like Power Attack and Combat Reflexes (which requires decent DEX anyway). Those two hypothetical feats would be much better on a Fighter (who has more feats than he knows what to do with anyway) and they'd be low-priority at best.
For a Human Two-Handed Fighter, I would definitely start at 1st level with Power Attack and these two feats, before weapon focus. This is because I would be building a much lower Dex than I currently do, probably 10 or 7 Dex, so I would want to minimize the pain. Furious Focus or Weapon Focus at 2nd level and the other at 3rd.

Rogue Eidolon's thoughts mirror my own here. Frankly if Swashbuckler gets Dex to damage then Precise Strike gets way too good.


PaperStSoapCo wrote:

Killer Memory

When a Slayer with this talent deals Sneak Attack damage to his Favored Target, for the next round he may deal Sneak Attack damage against that target even if the target is not flanked or denied Dex bonus to AC.

Talent idea. This way if a Slayer gets the jump on a target, and continues to go after that target and hit, he continues getting that SA bonus. Alternatively, he has a flanking ally for one round, the following rounds that ally can move on to other targets without denying use of SA. This allows the Slayer to do his job of slaying one target, without allowing him to have "always on" sneak attack, as he both has to hit, and has to set it up again on the next target.

EDIT: Changed to include Favored Target as per Scavion's excellent suggestion.

Ooooo I like. Its also very similar to the Assassin's Creed combat where once you build up your combo damage you can keep them rolling as long as you don't miss. Its very set up and knock down.


Scavion wrote:

I think the Talents themselves could hold the holy grail to this. With the recent cut down on space, they could make some really interesting ones. Concepts like these

Mage Slayer
Ranged Sneak Attacks/Sniper

Lets brainstorm some more talents.

Exactly.

Stuff like this needs to happen.


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I just got back from playing with some friends. Man can the Swashbuckler bring the pain at later levels. My Slayer could have not shown up compared to this guy. Even the always hasted Bloodrager felt shown up.

Quick question: Do gloves of dueling work for Swashbuckler Weapon Training?


PaperStSoapCo wrote:

I feel like the Slayer is much better off as far as "role" numbers are concerned now, but I've realized I have a new concern now.

Before the most recent revision, I was pretty happy with the Slayer as a mash up of Rogue/Ranger, given that several other classes were basically mash ups as well. Now, though, most of the other classes have something unique they're doing. Arcanists are almost entirely unique, Investigators have the Studied Combat and Inspiration, Brawlers have Martial Maneuvers, Hunters have the Animal Focus, Warpriests have Fervor; the others are slightly less unique but still have a lot of NEW things. The Slayer is basically just a straight mash up of Ranger and Rogue, with the only semi-unique feature basically just being a reprint of a Ranger archetype ability.

This. The Slayer needs unique features otherwise its a copy and paste job. Functional sure. Viable yes. But it needs something to distinguish itself.


wraithstrike wrote:

knowledge local is not diplomacy..The class need diplomacy.

Slayer: Sorry boss I would have killed ___ but I could not find him or persuade anyone to tell me where he was. The only person that I think really knew was surrounded by a lot of guards so scaring him into telling me was not a good idea.

The worst part is you can't even calm your boss down after you tell him. ;)


Joyd wrote:
I realize that lots of words have other meanings, but "Stalker" doesn't sound like something I want to be (or have around). Is that meaning just more salient for me than it is for other people?

Maybe it doesn't bother me because its been a DND Ranger build for a while. But similarly call me a Slayer and I expect to be able to rock my Favored Target which for the most part the Slayer is lacking on since Favored Target and the class damage feature have zero interaction.

Shadow maybe?


I think this update definitely was very beneficial but I'll try to lay my criticisms for the development team to examine for thoughts on what to look at next.

#1.) The Name
Slayer sends the wrong message about this class. The class is not slaying class in my opinion. If I've read the Swashbuckler right they get a much better damage feature in Precise Strike than the Slayer does. Keep the name Slayer and people going to judge this class against all other d10 full BAB classes on how good at killing things it is. On its own it stinks without doing the usually Sneak Attack jump through loops of costing a lot of feats, be forced to make a skill check, then spend an action which sucks. With a team it works pretty good because this class is an opportunist. Some people will say that I'm arguing semantics but the name is going to decide how a lot of people look and judge this class. Call me a slayer and I'll expect to absolute rock my chosen prey, call me a stalker and perceptions shift a little.

Potential Ideas: Stalker or Shadow.

#2.) Lack of Originality
The class is functional but out of all the classes in the playtest this class really feels like 95% of it was copy and paste with a tweak here or there. Favored Target accounts for most of the originality. That's all well and good but class could use a bit more unique content to offer up. The class should get more unique Slayer talents (as Rynjin points out). The Investigator got a lot of unique talents in addition to more unique class features and for the Slayer to not offer up some similar distinctive talents is a misstep.

#3.) No Interaction of Sneak Attack and Favored Target
This is disappointing. You have these two class features that just feel like there should be some interaction between but they are completely separate. There really feels like there should be some benefit for Sneak Attacking your Favored Target aside from the mechanical benefits these abilities apply on their own. Maybe something to help out when you don't have a Flank/Denied Dex to AC? Like less dice or reduced die size? I'm not the designer so I'll leave that up to you guys but this seems like a missed opportunity.


The big ones for me are

Slayer should be Stalker. Slayer sends the wrong message about the class.

Warpriest. It works but I like Templar better.


Sayt wrote:

A fighter with Weapon Spec and GWF is, IIRC, eighth level, by which point the Slayer's favoured Target is giving him +2 hit and damage and selecting a target as a swift action, putting them equal? Have I missed something?

Also, rules query, The Slayer may select deadly sneak as a Slayer Talent, however, normally this talent has a pre-req of powerful sneak, which the Slayer cannot take. Is this A) an oversight, or B) a hyper-literal reading of the rules where a slayer doesn't need to meet the prerequisite because he's not a rogue?

EDit: the lone slayer can...um, Improved two weapon feint. Favourted target offsets TWF penalties, I guess?

Weapon Training.

Also as far as TWF Feint.....more feat taxes to use your class ability.


AndIMustMask wrote:

also dont forget that SA is completely shut down by concealment, meaning you cant shank some dude in the dark (when is usually when/where you WANT to be sneaking up to stab the dude), unless you have darkvision. also blur is easy to get and likewise shuts them down with no effort.

sure you can remove this problem with two feats (the twilight stalker ones) or an expensive item (headbanfd of ninjutsu), but it still boggles the mind that a sneaky guy cant fight sneaky in the dark.

Very good point AndIMustMask, I completely forgot to mention it. Thank you.


Frankly I think they either need to revise Sneak Attack or give a Slayer/Rogue talent that significantly augments it, or best yet give the Slayer something unique.

Right now outside of the surprise round a Fighter with Weapon Specialization and GWF is better at slaying a target than the "Slayer" is against its Favored Target. The Fighter will have the same attack bonus, +1 to damage with its preferred weapon and that's before you count the better AC and gloves of dueling. The Slayer will need a party member to catch up. It can't slay on its own.

Doesn't that seem wrong to you? You'd imagine the Slayer to be really good at slaying his Favored Targets but no, the class damage feature and Favored Target have zero interaction. There are zero Slayer talents that augment Favored Target.

Quiet frankly (and I don't mean this to be insulting) the vast majority of this class is copy and paste with a tweak here or there.

Ultimately that means the Slayer falls into the same trap of the Rogue. except it traded some damage dice to the full BAB (granted its the better deal). That's the problem with Sneak Attack, you need another party member or to throw in very specific feat trees (the op courgon smash, feint tree, etc) and skills with high modifiers to try get any use out of it. The other classes in the game work better in a group but they don't stop functioning well without them unlike Sneak Attack.

The Fighter doesn't lose anything without party members.

The Wizard doesn't lose anything. They might want a meat shield/summons up or select a spell they can't cast on themselves but they don't really lose class features.

The Cleric preparing heal spells doesn't lose anything. Sure it might be more useful in a group but the Cleric can still heal himself.

The Paladin really doesn't lose anything, he still gains benefits from his auras, even if they are better with a group.

Even the freaking Bard allows themselves to be buffed with Bardic Performance.

The Slayer and Rogue lose something and have to pay a feat, skill, and/or action tax to try and get it back.


PaperStSoapCo wrote:
Are the combat style feats acquired disregarding prerequisites as a Ranger does or does the Slayer still need to meet those?

Since the Slayer is required to select a style, I think you can disregard the prerequisites.


ChainsawSam wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Hmmm. Well given the first hour of comments, my inclination right now is to change it back to sneak attack with a every three level progression.

I think I speak for me when I say, "some of us just want a Vivisectionist that isn't ooky and evil."

Though I should warn you, the community seems to not like: Teamwork, Flanking, or Sneak Attack.

So you'd probably only be making me happy in the long run.

Lol, But that's what matters! ;)


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Rynjin wrote:
I like the IDEA of Studied Strike if it needs something to set it apart from the Rogue. The implementation is just (besides being pretty much unusable/broken currently) lackluster at best.

This.


Have to say at first glance I'm liking some of the changes.


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That's not new as they were in the prior playtest and quite frankly 1/day talents define underwhelming.


ChainsawSam wrote:

As someone who dreaded losing Sneak Attack, I think I speak for me when I say, "Bring Sneak Attack back."

Study -> Strike -> Study -> Strike.

Even with Quick Study, it sounds tedious.

BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!

Quote:

and once a creature has become the

target of an investigator’s studied combat, he cannot
become the target of the same investigator’s studied
combat for 24 hours.

So I get the bonus to hit until I use a Studied Strike, at which point the bonus goes away. I cannot use a Studied Strike on an opponent who isn't a target of my Studied Combat. Now finally, after I struck, that opponent cannot be the target of my Studied Combat for 24 hours.

So the class gave up Sneak Attack because people complained it wasn't "investigatorly" (never mind the mutagen it can pick up. I remember that from all the Sherlock Hyde novels I read growing up), so Sneak Attack was taken away and replaced with... a one time damage bonus inferior to Sneak Attack.

My position remains unchanged. Sneak Attack good. Not Sneak Attack not good.

I missed the 24 hr bit, ty for pointing that out. Yeah frankly I like that they are trying to give the class a more unique feel, but mechanically right now SA is the better option. SF and SS needs some good old fine tuning.


I think he meant unique slayer talents.

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