Faun Chirurgeon

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Wands in their current form do seem a bit restrictive but I understand why with the way they redid the number of slots everyone has. I'm thinking we may see some feats come out alongside the Occultist. I can definitely see them being able to modify wands in some way.

What I kind of wish overall is that wands were destroyed due to overclocking, just broken. That way it wouldn't hurt so much to attempt the flat check since you'd be able to repair it later.

Zwordsman wrote:

Honestly I think they could make a Rod of Many Wands item. It lets you slot in a number of wands into it, which all can be used. The extra cost of the magic item of the Rod offsets the ability to have all the wands "on hand" without having to play hand juggling.

It would also be highly customizable, and higher ITEM versions could allow for more wands within it. (idk. every 3 item levels nets 1 slot or every 4).

Add in a version or some method to use it as a Mace or something. Or more clearly define the rules on improvised weapons, runes, and such.

Now you've got me picturing and craving some sort of six wand revolver/shot gun hybrid.

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Aservan wrote:
shroudb wrote:

it's one of the best spells to use True strike for.

True strike-Disintegrate is simply mean and bullying all types of opponents...

Is it? True strike means you've now spent a 1st and a 6th level spell. That's quite a wad to blow from your limited spell slots. You also are using all your actions for this. No moving, casting shield, or any other attempt to not die after casting.

An 11th level (the minimum level to cast disintegrate) a fighter has somewhere around 151 hit points. Even rolling 120 for damage won't kill him. You'd need to be the luckiest SOB in the world to get that roll, however. The average is only 66. Not even half his hit points.

You're not even likely to do that much. A Fighter gets Juggernaut at level 9. He's a master at the save while your spell DC is only expert. You won't get master until around 15 or so. To make it worse, if he rolls a success, he gets a critical success; that means no damage.

Unless you can find a clever setup disintegrate is an idiot tax for an alpha strike. I'm fine with that as rocket tag has never been my preferred play style.

The spell does improve with age, however. As a 19th level spellcaster you are legendary with spell saves and thus likely to be 2 points ahead of many foes. That means more failed saves and more damage. A 6th level slot isn't so precious anymore either. But you're also not likely to kill much with 66 damage. At least it will hurt.

You're forgetting that monsters aren't built like PCs in 2nd. No enemies will have Juggernaut and on top of that, with some buffing, debuffing, and true strike you have a high chance of critting. Even with an average of 66 damage, with a crit that's half of a level 11 creature's HP.

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I was definitely reading it as it gives you a sort of telescopic vision for targeting enemies through cover rather than it having anything to do with the bomb itself.

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How long does poison stay on a weapon/ammo? Can an Alchemist poison their weapons during daily preparation and carry them around all day?

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Does anyone know if you can use your Recall Knowledge for Initiative? I can kind of see a Wizard encountering an elemental and immediately going on the defensive and rolling Arcana since he knows what they typically do in combat.

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Another option would be the Elemental Bloodline Sorcerer with the Fighter Dedication if focus spells count for Bespell Weapon. You'd be able to throw out an Elemental Toss with one action, activate Bespell weapon with a free action, and then fire once or twice in a round.

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You could get away with an Elf Wizard with the Elven Weapon feats for a Shortbow and Bespell Weapon. You won't have as much mileage with your magic arrows due to the reduced number of slots and Bespell Weapon only activating when you cast real spells but with the ability to Drain your arcane bond, you should be able to get off a few extra dies of damage.

Really right now though, you're probably better off reflavoring your cantrips as magic arrows until we get more archetypes.

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Xenocrat wrote:


1. Correction: I was wrong, you do get to choose 3 per level plus get a free granted spell.

2. Terminology note: Spells in your repertoire from your bloodline are "granted spells." "Bloodline spells" actually refers to your focus spells.

Ugh yeah I'm never going to get used to that terminology but that is what I meant. Something to tie your spell repertoire in with your granted spells so you can experience your riders more often would be nice and since you're stuck with your granted spells anyway, it would be great if they auto-heightened. It would push the Elemental bloodline into a better position a a blaster since then you'd have your granted spell heightening and a different elemental spell as your signature that's heightening along with it.

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Xenocrat wrote:
I thought Sorcerers were wildly better than Wizards until I realized that after 1st level bloodline granted spells are mandatory selections from your repertoire, not in addition to it. Only being able to select two spells per level after 1st, and dealing with bloodline duds, is a lot more restrictive and makes the wizard a little more defensible. And the bard strangely more flexible by comparison, too.

It is a bit disappointing in comparison to the Bard's capability as a spontaneous caster. Unless you have an arcane bloodline and the arcane evolution feat, the Bard will far outpace you in signature spells with their feats. It wouldn't hurt as much if the riders on Bloodline spells were better and you had a feat that let you add spells to your bloodline to trigger them more often. I mean I'm looking at a Hag bloodline for the focus powers and flavor. Its rider would rarely come up if I were using the bloodline spell. Illusory Disguise isn't really a combat spell.

It's also kind of odd that your Bloodline Spells don't auto heighten. From the flavor standpoint, you would think that these spells that are coursing through your veins would naturally get better as you got stronger in controlling your power.

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I think it's very well balanced for caster classes and Champions but Monks get the shortest end of the stick. You can never be a real ki based Monk because of everything running off this small pool so you're relegated to once an encounter tricks. I kind of feel like some Ki abilities should've become Cantrips. A two action Ki Strike would've been great.

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
The utility mutagenist is Chapter 6 of my Doomsday Dawn game used Bestial Mutagen to engage in melee as his combat strategy. This worked fine.

I can definitely see this. The Bestial Mutagen is pretty comparable to the Barbarian's rage apart from the extra Reflex penalty. I think my biggest problem here is that out of all of the buffing classes, the Alchemist's Mutagens just don't feel fully integrated into this system and some are just strange and you can't turn them off. Cognitive Mutagen penalizing your bulk of all things when you're already a bulk heavy class? Just why?

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Rycke wrote:
I don't get why everyone is ignoring everything except the plus to ranged attacks. It's also giving you plus to 3 skills and a saving throw as well as plus to your speed. I haven't played this edition yet, but I'm pretty sure there's more to it than pointing your weapon at something and rolling an attack roll. It sounds like a pretty good trade-off to me.

The bonuses are great but I'm not sure if the trade off is worth it with the math being as tight as it is. A -2 to Fortitude is the difference between you saving against a spell or a monster's effect. If everyone +1 is super important than a self inflicted -2 should be as well.

The movement speed is nice but then again you can get the same movement bonus from a Cheetah's elixir with no penalty. I wish they had continued expanding on the other elixirs because each of those are nice and interesting whereas the Mutagens feel like weird holdovers from the previous edition to patch up weaknesses in the Alchemist's BAB.

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I'm trying to not be all doom and gloom about the Alchemist but in its current state it just doesn't stack up to the other classes. I feel like a part of this is due to them trying to distinguish it from casters and the other part is probably due to Resonance. Back when everybody had Resonance to use their items and powers, Alchemists had a bump but when it was gutted and replaced with infinitely renewable focus powers they took a sharp fall in their staying power. Couple that with the designers having to essentially build a new "spell list" for all of their items which is a herculean task and you end up with what we have now.

Also I'll never understand the decision to include an attack bonus for the bombs instead of just making the Alchemist less MAD and letting them use their key ability for attacking. It essentially makes any Ranger or Dex Fighter better at hurling bombs than an Alchemist.

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Staffan Johansson wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
A chirurgeon alchemist who focuses on creating healing elixirs is spending a much more significant chunk of their daily resources on healing than a cleric who just throws some free divine font around.
Not to mention that a cleric heals with their own actions, while the alchemist requires their allies to heal with their own. The whole point of a support character is to make your buddies better at what they do well, not to have them spend actions in order to be supported.

An Alchemist can technically feed a potion to an ally but that turns their healing into a 2 or 3 action activity if they also have to move to the downed ally. Not really that ideal since it puts you in the path of whatever just grievously injured your ally but it's something, I guess.

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shroudb wrote:
Eoni wrote:
Cwylric wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
I agree that the research fields are poorly balanced. The right answer is to pick bomber but diversify in what you're actually using your feats and reagents for.
Yeah, that was the feeling I was starting to get. But am I right or wrong about #2? Can anyone safely use mutagen, now? Because it sure looks that way. But the Mutagenist ability seemed to imply that I'm wrong, so...?
Anyone can use Mutagens that were made for them. As an Alchemist you can key a mutagen to a certain person when you're creating it. The class ability is kind of dead though unless you find yourself encountering a lot of Alchemists who've crafted real Mutagens and not just the daily ones.

That limitation was actually removed.

I can't find anywhere stating that each Mutagen is brewed for a specific person like it did in the playtest.

You're totally right. I just control F'd through the pdf and found nothing about Mutagens being keyed to a person anymore. This is really baffling. I hope the people at Paizo are checking out these threads because Alchemist is one of my favorite classes and I really have not been enjoying what I've seen of it in 2e.

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Cwylric wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
I agree that the research fields are poorly balanced. The right answer is to pick bomber but diversify in what you're actually using your feats and reagents for.
Yeah, that was the feeling I was starting to get. But am I right or wrong about #2? Can anyone safely use mutagen, now? Because it sure looks that way. But the Mutagenist ability seemed to imply that I'm wrong, so...?

Anyone can use Mutagens that were made for them. As an Alchemist you can key a mutagen to a certain person when you're creating it. The class ability is kind of dead though unless you find yourself encountering a lot of Alchemists who've crafted real Mutagens and not just the daily ones.

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MaxAstro wrote:

It's not worse than Bless because it's a much less common type of bonus than Bless and in fact stacks with Bless.

The general philosophy of PF2e seems to be "optimizing is very costly, but catching up if you fall behind is inexpensive". The quicksilver mutagen seems to fit this exactly - for a non-optimized character, it's a very appealing buff. For an optimized character, it's an expensive cost to push themselves to the utmost threshold.

That seems reasonable to me.

I do want to make one slight point. The various bombs in their Moderate version give an Item bonus to the attack roll which wouldn't even stack with the Quicksilver Mutagen. At that point the only bonus it would be giving is to the skill checks and reflex save. And if we're going up against a dragon then we would definitely be at the level where a fighter could feasibly afford a bow with a +1 potency rune which also wouldn't stack with the Quicksilver Mutagen.

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Shisumo wrote:
I think your numbers are off. The hp should be increasing by at least 10 per level for certain; in addition, as Con is probably a secondary stat for a mutagenist, a Con 18 by 10th level is pretty likely, I think.

You're totally right. I forgot to add in the con bonus. I just edited the op. With that it stays consistently a little under 1/5th of your hp. Con 18 may be a necessity to offset the hp and fort penalty.

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After doing a bit of back and forth in a thread about Alchemists and their roles, I discovered a very weird and somewhat alarming issue with the drawback to the Quicksilver Mutagen.

Quote:

QUICKSILVER MUTAGEN ITEM 1+

ALCHEMICAL CONSUMABLE ELIXIR MUTAGEN POLYMORPH
Usage held in 1 hand; Bulk L
Activate [one-action] Interact
Your features become thin and angular. You become swifter and nimbler, but your body also becomes fragile.
Benefit You gain an item bonus to Acrobatics checks, Stealth checks, Thievery checks, Reflex saves, and ranged attack rolls, and you gain the listed status bonus to your Speed.
Drawback You take damage equal to twice your level; you can’t recover Hit Points lost in this way by any means while the mutagen lasts. You take a –2 penalty to Fortitude saves.
Type lesser; Level 1; Price 4 gp
The bonus to rolls is +1, the bonus to Speed is +5 feet, and the duration is 1 minute.
Type moderate; Level 3; Price 12 gp
The bonus to rolls is +2, the bonus to Speed is +10 feet, and the duration is 10 minutes.
Type greater; Level 11; Price 300 gp
The bonus to rolls is +3, the bonus to Speed is +15 feet, and the duration is 1 hour.
Type major; Level 17; Price 3,000 gp

The drawback causes you to take 2 x your level damage that you can't heal until after the duration of the mutagen passes. At early levels this will be negligible but very quickly it starts to trend towards 1/5th of your health and stays that way all the way up to 20th level.

Take a d8 racial hit die character with a +2 modifier to constitution.
Level Hp Damage
1 18 2 1/9th total hp
2 28 4 1/6th total hp
3 38 6 1/6th total hp rounded up
4 48 8 1/6th total hp rounded up
5 58 10 1/6th total hp rounded up
6 68 12 1/6th total hp rounded up
7 78 14 1/6th total hp rounded up
8 88 16 1/6th total hp rounded up
9 98 18 1/6th total hp rounded up
10 108 20 1/6th total hp rounded up

The later numbers are actually rounded up to 1/5th and they trend closely to the same with a d10 racial hit die character with a +2 to con. With this edition being so mobile it worries me that any archer taking this will be stuck going into multiple battles with this drawback and no way to end a Mutagen early. It's also oddly the only Mutagen that gives hp damage.

Edit: I forgot to add in the con bonus so the numbers adjusted a bit to be a little under 1/5th hp.

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SuperBidi wrote:
Eoni wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree.

I will respectfully disagree with you, too.

I agree that, on paper, it looks like a specialization. But, when you look at it:
- Feats are not locked to a specific Research Fields.
- Items are not locked to a specific Research Fields.
- Most Research Fields abilities are either bad or plain bad, including the Perpetual Infusions which are close to useless for all three Research Fields. The only good ones are at level 1 and 13. Considering that the level 13 one is hard to get, you basically have to choose between the level 1 abilities and that's all.

I agreed with you on all of these points. The research fields and perpetual abilities are my biggest disappointments with how the Alchemist is set up currently. What I would like to see is something more akin to Signature Items that the Alchemist can focus on for their Quick Alchemy and let them retrain them during downtime. Bombers could pick two types of Alchemical Bombs, Mutagenists get 2 mutagens, and then Chirurgeon get everything else. A clause excluding Elixirs of Life would be fine to disallow infinite healing.

SuperBidi wrote:


And, in my opinion, it's far more than a dip that you have to make. An Alchemist who is not using poisons, bombs, elixirs and mutagens at the same time will be behind a more versatile one.
Poisons are one of your main contribution. It's roughly one free attack per combat per slashing/piercing weapon (as long as you don't fight undeads). Elixirs are also good, in my opinion. You need to give everyone a few of them to be able to heal in situations where they don't have any good action to perform. Mutagens are a must have for ranged fighters (a +1 to hit is extremely hard to get at PF2). I also like the bestial ones for non weaponized classes, it allow them to fight in melee without having to invest in anything but a little bit of dexterity. Bombs is the only class feature asking for a specific stat (Dexterity). They are good for debuffing (Bottled Lightning) or hitting vulnerable monsters. For other situation, I would go for a bow.

As someone currently playing a poison based Alchemist in 1e I agree that in this edition they're amazing but the Alchemist gets shut out of the ability to apply them quickly. I agree that the bombs are great for debuffing and hitting vulnerable monsters. My problem isn't with the items more so the class abilities relating to them. It honestly seems like you'd get more value out of multiclassing into Alchemist than being an Alchemist.

Also, I'm just really not a big fan of Mutagens in this edition overall. Yes a +1 is really great for a ranged fighter but that -2 to Fortitude and 2 x level hp damage that can't be healed for a minute is pretty major. That'll always be about a 5th of your health gone, more or less if you're a d8 hit die race with a +2 Con modifier, same goes for a d10 race with a +2 con mod. Same for Bestial Mutagen lowering AC and Reflex saves. I don't want to be the reason somebody got critted.

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SuperBidi wrote:
Eoni wrote:
That's just not a great thing to say about a class with a subclass that's supposed to be dedicated to healing. As is, it seems to be dedicated to curing poisons and diseases, which oddly enough their healing item gives a bonus to as well.
The Research Fields are no dedication. They are light specializations. The Research Field makes you a bit better in one domain, but you still have to rely vastly on the other domains to perform normally. So, a Chirurgeon is not much better than a Bomber at healing. A Chirurgeon has to use Poison, Bombs and Mutagens, and can't just rely on healing as his main contribution to the party.

I have to respectfully disagree. Your research field enables the other class features that key off of specific items so it definitely seems to be the case that you're supposed to be a specific kind of Alchemist. It's true that the feats aren't class locked but your free items are supposed to synergize with the feats since you have a finite resource to use Quick Alchemy with.

It's true that you'll have to dip into the other pools of items and pick up other item specific feats to stay effective but that's mostly because the Chirurgeon doesn't really have much they can do on their own aside from antitoxin and antiplague. You can't even really buff since you can't select Elixirs as your Perpetual items. Honestly, that might have been the best way to go for the Chirurgeon. Handing out Mutagens before battle feels like a bandaid to this issue but with the way the math is lined up, I'm wary of handing out a bunch of items that penalize my ally's saves. Other support characters don't have that issue.

Edit: Now that I've thought about it, Chirurgeon should have totally been able to use their Perpetual features for those other Elixirs. Handing out Stone Fist, Leaper, Cheetah, or Mistform elixirs would've gone a long way to making them feel like a real support class.

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SuperBidi wrote:
shroudb wrote:
They simply need a place where they are the "vastly superior option" as compared to Heal which is the "vastly superior option" in a lot of cases.
There is none. If you want to play a dedicated healer, Cleric is a better class than Alchemist. It doesn't make Alchemist bad, just the Alchemist is not a specialized character, it will never outperform compared to a more specialized one.

That's just not a great thing to say about a class with a subclass that's supposed to be dedicated to healing. As is, it seems to be dedicated to curing poisons and diseases, which oddly enough their healing item gives a bonus to as well.

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It's very rough around the edges due to basically being written from scratch and then rewritten to take out Resonance so it doesn't feel quite done in comparison to the other classes. I like where they're going but the fact that you don't get a renewable resource comparable to focus powers just really sucks. Perpetual Potency would be close to this if it didn't take two actions to use. The additives are a cool idea but you can only ever apply it to one bomb since it's once a round and only applies to a single bomb. The Chirurgeon is hurt the worst though since even if you hand out your Elixirs of Life you've effectively turned your healing ability into multiple 2 action maneuvers that won't heal consistently till level 13. Even then, a healing focused Bard just one level higher can throw out a Soothing Ballad and do more healing than you could accomplish running around and using Quick Alchemy to bring up your party after an area attack goes wrong.

I've said it time and again but what I hate the most is how they specified the items in your class features, effectively future proofing any new items out of the base Alchemist's Perpetual Infusions, Perpetual Potency, and Perpetual Perfection.

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Ah thank you for that. I couldn't quite envision it reading the two of them side by side. I was thinking of the number of charges as the be all end all of it.

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I've been mulling this over in my head but haven't really been able to come up with an answer. It seems between Prepared Casters and Spontaneous Casters, the prepared people have a bigger advantage when adding extra charges to a staff. They can expend a spell to add its level of charges to the staff whereas a Spontaneous caster can only expend a slot and a charge to cast from it. I just don't get how useful it is since they only get one more spell slot than a wizard.

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Xenocrat wrote:
Eoni wrote:
Electric Arc isn't too worrying since there's a proliferation of things with Electricity resistance and outright immunity in the bestiary.

Not really.

Aeon, Arbiter (3)
Aeon, Axiomite (10)
Veiled Master (immune)
Demon, Vrock (10)
Dragon, Blue (immune)
Dragon, Bronze (immune)
Drake, Destert (16)
Electric Eel (7)
Genie, Shaitan (10)
Giant, Storm (immune)
Golem, Flesh (immune)
Kobold, Blue (5)
Demilich (5)
Mukradi (20)
Gelatinous Cube (5)
Ochre Jelly (immune)
Roper (10)
Shambler (immune)
Skeletal Whatever (5)
Uthul (immune)

Some of these are iconic and at least somewhat common (although Skeletal X's have similar resistance to all elements), but it's not by any means pervasive.

Ah gotcha. I hadn't done an analysis yet and was going by your thread where you mentioned there were a lot of enemies lacking it as a weakness.

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Electric Arc isn't too worrying since there's a proliferation of things with Electricity resistance and outright immunity in the bestiary.

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I'm a big big fan of the Hag Bloodline. As someone currently playing a Changeling Mesmerist in 1e it is super satisfying to say I can remake my pc in core and be a stronger than I was due to being a full caster.

Second to that is the Elemental Bloodline. I like that you can basically play the Avatar and do some consistent blasting. The Sorcerer's free refocusing power is a big boon since their focus powers are so potent.

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You gotta remember, you're not just softening them up for your next spell but also your ally's next spell or Demoralize/Feint check

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Breath of LifeA verbal reaction heal that let's you heal 4d8 without taking an attack of opportunity.

Collective Transposition The new Dimension Door. A shorter range but with added bonus of you being able to target an enemy.

Drop DeadA former mesmerist trick returns as a reaction invisibility spell that's even stronger than the mesmerist trick since it becomes greater invisibility at the next spell level.

Power Word Blind/Stun/Kill 1 action spells that can follow up any big spell to finish off an enemy. They're uncommon but so worth the work it'll take to find them.

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This question popped up on reddit so I'll just repost my answer.

Quote:

It's definitely more handy in an intrigue based game where your character isn't assumed to be carrying all of his stuff with him while infiltrating a ball or pretending to be captured. Couple it with Conceal Spell/Silent Spell and nobody would notice it was you casting unless the spell originated from you. You'd memorize your spells beforehand and be able to jazz hands people to death when the action started.

Edit: I should clarify that Conceal Spell/Silent Spell will only really work with Verbal/Material or Somatic/Material spells since it uses your third action but there are a few of those in the book it's viable for.

2nd Edit: I just flipped through the spell list and funny enough but the spells you can use with Eschew Materials and Conceal/Silent Spell are all illusion spells.

2nd - Invisibility, Silence
3rd - Invisibility Sphere, Hypnotic Pattern
5th - Hallucination
6th - Vibrant Pattern
8th - Scintillating Pattern

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Porridge wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Color Spray, Charm, Suggestion, and Dominate all have the incapacitation trait. Read and understand that before you sing their praises - if you don’t heighten them a lot or you try to use them on a boss the target gets a bump on his save result.

Good find; I hadn't picked up on the incapacitation trait.

Though I still think spells like Charm and Suggestion are much more useful now than they were in PF1. You can try to Charm the recalcitrant shop-keeper so that they'll tell you what they know, or Charm the sheriff into letting you go, or what have you, without risking a high chance of them throwing you in jail.

I hadn't noticed that either so thanks for pointing it out. Good thing I was already planning on making those my signature spells. I can understand why they did that though. The number of boss fights ended by Dominate has to be pretty high.

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I haven't gone through everyone but here's a few I liked. Overall I think the 4 degrees of success really shine in the save or suck spells of old. Before it was great to land that Dominate Person after spending a full round casting it but when they saved it really sucked cause it felt like wasted round. Now even on a save, the enemy is still getting affected in some way. And doubling damage on a critical fail is going to feel so nice, even more so if it targets an enemy's weakness.

Chain Lightning: 8d12 in PF2 vs the PF1 version that would give you 11d6 when you first get it. The best part of it is you can hit as many creatures as you want without a sliding scale dc and you get the double damage chance on a crit fail.

Color Spray: Gone are the fiddly hit die limitations so everyone who fails, including the boss can get blinded for a minute.

Crushing Despair: Only for the flavor really but the failure effects are great.

Daze: The fact that you have a cantrip that can stun on a critical is just fantastic. I wouldn't have even considered it in PF1.

Dominate: The change to target and dropping it to a 6th level spell means you can control monsters as early as level 11. With the 4 degrees mean even if the enemy makes their save they're still stunned until you prepare spells again.

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It seems like part of the change to those prebuff tactics is due in part to the change to the math and to the Bard. They can gain cantrips to increase attacks, defenses, and skills so they're kind of walking Heroisms. Also Mage Armor is still there and lasts all day right out of the gate, Invisibility starts out at 10 minutes which you wouldn't have even gotten till level 10, and Barkskin has been changed to DR for balance since we now add our level to AC so its value is different. Those are 3 of the routine buffs I can think of off the top of my head that I'd be applying before an encounter.

You also have to remember we now have Staves that aren't ridiculously priced and recharge daily without you having to do anything unless you want to add more charges if they're a prepared caster or expend a charge and a same level spell to cast from it.

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Arakasius wrote:
I’ve mostly dealt with this with my group’s level 13 Paladin whose retributive strike can rip through demons easily just with the auto damage every turn from his persistent good damage.

That sounds like the intent of weakness though. It gives you Paladin the chance to feel awesome in the face of enemies who're actually weak against good damage. It really gives that holy warrior feel and makes the Paladin unique in that he might not crit and throw out as many attacks as a Fighter but his damage will devastating to evil creatures when he does connect.

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magnuskn wrote:
Erm, yeah. You got to prepare Burning Hands in a fourth level slot to get 8d6, though. At which point you gotta ask yourself "wouldn't it be more useful to have another Fly in this slot or at least a 8d6 Fireball?". The real kicker is that to get it to for example 14d6, you gotta cast it as a level 7 spell, at which point it is competing with reality altering spells like Magnificent Mansion or Prismatic Spray.

I understand what you're saying but I think those situational questions are just part of playing a prepared caster. And with the way the math has been changed it seems like Burning Hands has been set up to cover your 1st and 2nd spell level need for a big fire spell if you want to avoid the concentrate action for Flaming Sphere before Fireball comes online.

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I think we're going to have to wait to see a real comparison of spell dcs vs monster saves and the proliferation of weaknesses to determine if that's true. I mean the level 1 classic burning hands now does 2d6 damage per level with no cap instead of 1d4 per level - maxed out at 5d4. It's probably better as a signature spell for a spontaneous caster but a wizard with some foreknowledge can prep it in the right slot.

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PF2's Bard is insanely awesome thanks in part to how the new math and crit system work out. Your +1 Inspire Courage is equivalent to handing out Improved Crit to your party since every +1 counts. If you look at any of the items or buffs in the book you'll notice how low they are due to a lot of the power coming from the players and not the items/spells in this system. The fact that you can do this as one action all day, every day, and still throw out spells or swing your sword is a pretty big deal. Not only that but the Occult list has some of the best control spells and if you're a Polymath Muse you can take two feats essentially make whatever spell you want a Signature Spell if you have it in your spell book.

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After doing a bit of reading through the spell list my opinion has kind of shifted when it comes to Spontaneous casters having fewer heightening options. Bards seem to beat out Sorcerer's here since they have feats to expand their number of Signature Spells but overall this is only a boon if you stick to picking up spells that heighten at every level. There are a ton of spells in the book that only heighten at certain levels so it makes sense to only really take them in appropriate slots.

I do wish that Sorcerers got access to the feats that add to their Signature Spells or even feats that add spells to their Bloodline Spells because it kind of seems those riders are supposed to be a big feature of the class but won't come up often enough unless you're spamming powers and your granted spells that require slots.

Edit: Obviously the Arcane casting Sorcerer wins out here since they can add Signature Spells but would still prefer some sort of class feat in there to add spells to your Bloodline list.

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NemoNoName wrote:
Eoni wrote:
In a lot of cases, you'll probably be better off throwing out some buffs/debuffs to cover that disparity. That lowered proficiency on an attack can be mitigated with single action true strike and that lowered armor has the shield cantrip.
That's a completely invalid approach as these are the actions you can use with your better bonuses to get an even higher AC / attack.

Oh no, I do understand that but for people with a certain preferred flavor they're going for with their armor and weapon choices, I was just saying that's an easy way to try and stay relevant until errata and more options come around to fix this issue.

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In a lot of cases, you'll probably be better off throwing out some buffs/debuffs to cover that disparity. That lowered proficiency on an attack can be mitigated with single action true strike and that lowered armor has the shield cantrip.

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Blave wrote:
Eoni wrote:
It's my hope we get some quick errata that t say weapons and Armor gotten through feats are added to your class lists. It seems a quick and simple fix.
I don't think it's quite as easy as you might think. With your solution, a Monk multiclassed to Paladin would become legendary in all armor, including heavy armor.

Yeesh. I hadn't even considered that...I hate to use the phrase trap option but that armor and weapon feat really do just become suboptimal at higher levels where you get higher proficiency and weapon specialization with your class weapons.

Though now that makes me wonder what archetypes that give proficiencies will do.

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Squiggit wrote:
It's kind of strange. PF2 lets you build a martial wizard or a spellslinging fighter really easily and has lots of really open ended, modular design choices. Then it punishes you really hard for wanting to wield different armor and weapons than the ones it deems appropriate for your class. Even though we established earlier in this thread that the different types of armor are balanced against each other so players can focus on flavor.

This has got to be an oversight. Stuff like this and the lack of Spontaneous Heightening for MC seems like an after thought that seemed obvious but slipped everyone's minds. It's my hope we get some quick errata that t say weapons and Armor gotten through feats are added to your class lists. It seems a quick and simple fix. As for the Heightening issue, we'll definitely need another feat thrown in.

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Malk_Content wrote:
Also anyone can use their deception instead if they have the Lie To Me feat. Fittingly enough this makes barristers top choice for negotiating with the fey.

I was just about to comment something like this. Since we now have options to use Deception instead of sense motive, the party's resident liar who's maxed out Deception has a higher chance at coming out on top in that check.

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Are there anymore interesting Muse benefits in the bestiary like the one granted by Nymphs?

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Do Mutagens still have an onset time?

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Not too necro a thread but I was just thinking about how I can see it easily fitting into the Bard chassis as an archetype but also how it might be able to stand on its own with a couple of its features. If they flipped the bonuses from their powers into penalties for the enemies they'd pack a bigger punch on the battlefield and not be so single target focused. Inspire Courage becomes Inflict Cowardice and Inspire Competence swaps to Inflict Incompetence.

At the same time, Painful Stare as a reaction seems like an obvious choice that doesn't quite fit into the a Bard. I'm not sure about tricks or touch treatment. I can sort of see Touch Treatment like an extra pool with Clerics and channeling. Tricks seem like focus powers but would be extremely limited by the number of focus points you can get as a class, though I guess that would be a built in Manifold Stare. I just think it would get annoying very quickly with you not being able to refocus unless you are able to activate then each combat. A lot 1e tricks are kind of situational. The Bold Stares I'd break down as different cantrips since handing out a bunch of penalties is extremely strong in this edition.

As someone who loves playing debuffers and enablers, I'm waiting with baited breath to see what they're planning.

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What are potions like?

Can you tell us about any of the high level alchemical items?

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I feel like compared to the other classes, Alchemist just isn't quite 'there' yet. It still needs some adjusting to make it viable next to the other classes who can do their thing all day. There's a lot of low hanging fruit there that will hopefully be plucked with errata. A simple fix for the healer's kit + equipment bulk issue would've been for the Chirurugeon to be able to use their alchemist's kit as a healer's kit. I also think their temp alchemical items shouldn't weigh as much as their crafted equivalent. They're already temp items that expire in a day so it would be easy to say they're made of lesser ingredients and no matter how many you create from Infused Reagents they still maintain that same bulk L.

My biggest concern is their staying power. They're the only class whose main ability isn't usable throughout the day. A fighter can always swing his sword and a caster can always throw a cantrip but Alchemists really have to ration their creations till level 5 where they get the minor bump of extra items. It really sucks they don't get something equivalent to focus powers.

EDIT: Also, I know I mentioned it already but it's still baffling that for all of the talk of future proofing classes, they just kind of future proofed the Alchemist out of getting any new items that work with their abilities. Their powers will always only work for these select items no matter how many new books come out.

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Oh wow. When I read about Bards having Muses I was thinking it would be a more abstract concept but to see Nymphs giving out actual bonuses for Bards who use them as Muses is getting me extremely excited to see what other possible Muses are waiting in the bestiary.

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