Ultimate Combat Preview #1

Also it would be good if we got updated bloodlines, by updated i mean the granted feat list and spells because when a new book comes it might introduce something that fits a bloodline better and when another book comes out it might again itroduce something like that and when another book ..... etc.
So in the end we end up with bloodline feats and spells that are as fresh as the book they are in.

Or guidelines in order to make our own bloodlines.

Kthulhu wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

Sorcerer is the class which seems to have archetypes built right into it from the get-go.

By that logic every domain, school of specialty and class option is its own archetype.

Exactly. Except they ALSO get more traditional archetypes as well: scrollmaster, arcane bomber, siege mage, and spellslinger.

Sorcerers get...more bloodlines, the ability to have two bloodlines, and the ability to have a variant of a bloodline.

Right. If anything, Sorcerors have MORE Class Features than a Wizard which can be swapped out, though as people notice the BL benefits tend to be more along the line of OK, but forgettable side benefits like Resistances, melee attacks, SLAs, rather than truly unique, game-altering abilities or quantifiable boosts to casting or other mechanics like Initiative. But if Wizards have stuff that can be swapped around to cover archetypes like scrollmaster, arcane bomber, siege mage, spellslinger, etc, THEN SORCERORS DEFINITELY DO AS WELL.

I personally would have found several of the above archetypes more flavorful being applied to a Sorceror (such as spellslinger/gunmage), COMPETELY INDEPENDENT from the issue that Sorceros don`t get as much Archetype love as Wizards do. (and Wizards are ALSO getting new alternate Schools and Focused Schools, etc, their exact analog to Bloodlines in terms of Class Abilities)

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And re: Sorceror Metamagic, it`s not just Rods stealing their thunder: Universalists Wizard also get free meta-magic... Which half of the time, they have an extra spell level to play with.

The idea of buying a Feat so I can `swap out` a BL power is on it`s own a bad idea, you shouldn`t pay to not have any net gain, Feats should give you new abilities, not remove something at the same time. For the specific example of gaining a Familiar, Paizo`s own Eldtritch Heritage line of Feats let`s you gain a Familiar with 1 Feat at no loss of power (Skill Focus: Knowledge(Arcane) required, coincidentally a Bonus Feat for several Bloodlines).

I personally would have found several of the above archetypes more flavorful being applied to a Sorceror (such as spellslinger/gunmage), COMPETELY INDEPENDENT from the issue that Sorceros don`t get as much Archetype love as Wizards do. (and Wizards are ALSO getting new alternate Schools and Focused Schools, etc, their exact analog to Bloodlines in terms of Class Abilities)

I'd be happy to see a list of several bloodline themed alternate abilities, but more along the lines of how oracles abilities work. Here is a list of what you can choose from for the relevant bloodline, some with a minimum level. Plus a new feat to allow more bloodline abilities to be taken (without needing to buy skill focus first) provided they come from your current bloodline. I like the variant bloodlines in UM, but I would like them more if they didn't require the all-or-nothing swap.

But back to Ultimate Combat....

True. I'm really curious to see it because I've a very special campaign in mind :)

Well, to me pirates invoke images of the Age of Sail and the Golden Age of Piracy, both of which involve gunpowder. I'd like to play in such a campaign and have several different characters in the party with wheel-locks and muskets, but not feel the need for a party of Gunslingers to really get anything out of them. The Gunslinger gets to be the best gun-user, followed by the archetypes of the other classes, and then the regular classes who take some feats.

It is quite hard to create archetypes for classes without a number of class features to work with (being that there is little to swap). You can start swapping out core class features, but then the class becomes less and less recognizable and you run into a mountain of balance issues. This makes the cleric, sorcerer, and wizard all a bit tricky to create archetypes for.

All that said, we are intent on giving options to all the classes. It is impossible to make them all perfectly balanced in terms of quantity, but we try to keep things close at the very least. Due to the complexity of our rules set, these options sometimes take different forms, but they are certain there.

I`m sure you`re aware that this is completely dodging the issue of why you continue to make new Archtypes and options for WIZARDS, but not Sorcerors. People aren`t complaining that Sorceros AND Wizards AND Clerics don`t have the same degree of Archetypes as Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, etc. They are complaining about a discrepancy between Wizards and Sorcerors. Why couldn`t the Gun Mage(Spellslinger) be a Sorceror Archetype? They don`t have LESS class features than a Wizard. The Focused Schools are obviously analogs to the Wildblood `archetype` Bloodlines, as Schools are to Bloodlines in general.

So if your intent was to see options/archetypes for both Sorcerors and Wizards, why have Sorcerors not seen archetypes like scrollmaster, arcane bomber, siege mage, spellslinger? AT LEAST one of those feels equally, if not MORE, appropriate for a Sorceror vs. Mage, so what was the impediment in making it a Sorceror Archetype instead? People have re-posted the 3.5 Battle Sorceror, which is clearly do-able as PRPG as well... Maybe not the BEST Archetype for single-classed builds, but a great option for Sorcerors planning on using Paizo`s own Eldritch Knight PrC, and it could easily be improved the small bit that is needed with the `PRPG treatment`.

Quandary wrote:

I consider the Magus a variant Wizard.

Aside from the fact they use spellbooks. I don't think of Magus as wizards They're simply not the intellectually oriented masters of magic. They're warmages they have too stunted a view of magic to be an analogue of the bookish wizard.

Maybe the fact I said `variant Wizard` rather than `based off Wizards` is what threw you, though I don`t consider those different things at all, rather than a matter of how different a variant is. The Magus not only uses INT like a Wizard, uses spellbooks like a Wizard (and can learn from Wizard spellbooks), their Bonus Feats can match Wizard Bonus Feats (metamagic, item creation), and they eventually can cherry pick specific Wizard spells to add to their list (and the rules specifically say `from the Wizard spell list`, NOT `the Wizard/Sorceror spell list` as the Core Rules otherwise always say). Definitely, they are not equals of Wizards anymore, but they are more like Wizards who swapped out some of their casting and powers for other stuff. You can`t imagine Maguses without Wizards, yet you could imagine them without Sorcerors or any other Casting class.

So, back to the topic at hand, Paizo chose to build a 3/4 arcane casting-fighting class based closely around the Wizard and not the Sorceror. Players who like Wizard casting, spellbooks, and want to add fighting to the mix should be well gratified with the Magus. Not so much if they were looking for a Sorceror-casting fighter. Which is bizarre given the number of melee-attack-granting Bloodlines, which would probably do GREAT being better able to mix it up in melee along with casting, ala Magus.

Question: Is it true there are no PrC`s in this book?

Question: Is it true there are no PrC`s in this book?

At this point, I assume no.

So, back to the topic at hand, Paizo chose to build a 3/4 arcane casting-fighting class based closely around the Wizard and not the Sorceror. Players who like Wizard casting, spellbooks, and want to add fighting to the mix should be well gratified with the Magus. Not so much if they were looking for a Sorceror-casting fighter. Which is bizarre given the number of melee-attack-granting Bloodlines, which would probably do GREAT being better able to mix it up in melee along with casting, ala Magus.

I know it doesn't make up for all the wizard love, but if you want to play a casting-fighting class based closely around the sorcerer, the Dragon Disciple can help you with that. As a prestige class, it's more restrictive than a base class, but it's there for those who want to play a sorcerer that can stand is own in melee... for a short time. :)

Quandary wrote:

So, back to the topic at hand, Paizo chose to build a 3/4 arcane casting-fighting class based closely around the Wizard and not the Sorceror. Players who like Wizard casting, spellbooks, and want to add fighting to the mix should be well gratified with the Magus. Not so much if they were looking for a Sorceror-casting fighter. Which is bizarre given the number of melee-attack-granting Bloodlines, which would probably do GREAT being better able to mix it up in melee along with casting, ala Magus.

I know it doesn't make up for all the wizard love, but if you want to play a casting-fighting class based closely around the sorcerer, the Dragon Disciple can help you with that. As a prestige class, it's more restrictive than a base class, but it's there for those who want to play a sorcerer that can stand is own in melee... for a short time. :)

Or buy this, and a quality 6 pack for your GM, and use the Scourge option :)

Maerimydra wrote:

I know it doesn't make up for all the wizard love, but if you want to play a casting-fighting class based closely around the sorcerer, the Dragon Disciple can help you with that. As a prestige class, it's more restrictive than a base class, but it's there for those who want to play a sorcerer that can stand is own in melee... for a short time. :)

Or buy this, and a quality 6 pack for your GM, and use the Scourge option :)

Or, you know, you could just do the following :

• Change the magus's spells per day to the Summoner's.
  
• Change his casting stat to his Charisma.
  
• Give him the Eldritch Heritage chain to his Bonus Feat list.
  
• Give him the Spells Known from the Summoner's table.
  
• Make him a spontaneous caster.
  

Poof, done. Instant spontaneous casting arcane warrior.

Could all of you having the wizard vs. sorcerer discussion move it to another thread, please? Thank you.

Could all of you having the wizard vs. sorcerer discussion move it to another thread, please? Thank you.

+5

Yay for divine rogues :)

Actually, I kinda hope that Divine Hunter and Holy Gun are compatible.

Church Sanctioned Bounty Hunters sound cool.

Yay for divine rogues :)

Yay!

I'm really delighted to get new rogue stuff. Ultimate Magic, understandably enough, had very little to offer in that regard. Though Eldritch Heritage feats(with the Noble Scion(of War) synergy) were interesting.

And it is nice to see that inquisitors are not the "official" divine rogues. They fit the part mechanically, but thematically are anything but.

Here's to hoping sanctified rogues get the solo tactics ability though :D

I'm not particularly keen on any of the gun archetypes, I'll certainly not be playing them any time soon. Nor bring them into games I GM. But there are several very exciting archetypes.

Does anybody have some good educated guesses or hopes?

• titan mauler - for my money this is an archetype for wielding over-sized weapons!
  
• there's a cavalier "strategist", cleric "divine strategist", fighter "tactician" and paladin "holy tactician" - I suspect there is a new mechanic (or heavily expanded teamwork mechanic) that is used by them
  

I suspect there is a new mechanic (or heavily expanded teamwork mechanic) that is used by them

Which I hope is not heavily Feat based. Tactic and teamwork stuff have almost always had it's downfall when they are turned into feats. The only system I've seen that actually worked was the one introduced late in 3.5 which only required a single feat to be a "leader" and then various perquisites for different kinds of teamwork. Most of which was logically related and stuff such a group would be using anyways.

I'm not particularly keen on any of the gun archetypes, I'll certainly not be playing them any time soon. Nor bring them into games I GM. But there are several very exciting archetypes.

Does anybody have some good educated guesses or hopes?

• titan mauler - for my money this is an archetype for wielding over-sized weapons!
  
• there's a cavalier "strategist", cleric "divine strategist", fighter "tactician" and paladin "holy tactician" - I suspect there is a new mechanic (or heavily expanded teamwork mechanic) that is used by them
  

I expect that you are right about the mechanic. Likely there are similar archetypes for some of the other classes too. It's just that we have no way of knowing right now.

As for speculation:

I think it was mentioned in the past that it is more difficult to add archetypes to classes like Wizards, Sorcerers, or Clerics due to the lack of class features (it is a bit more true with Clerics, wizards are doing fine.) Also, since Bloodlines are already almost archetypes in all but name.

So Wizards are doing fine, even though they don`t have more Class abilities than Sorcerors with Bloodlines... Do you see the logical problem with that? This is apart from the fact that it`s dead easy to make Archetypes that DO modify Bloodlines powers, but in a generic way across the board, i.e. `all BL powers after 1st level are gained 3 levels later, and you don`t gain the Bonus Feats or 20th level Capstone`.

This is apart from the fact that it`s dead easy to make Archetypes that DO modify Bloodlines powers, but in a generic way across the board, i.e. `all BL powers after 1st level are gained 3 levels later, and you don`t gain the Bonus Feats or 20th level Capstone`.

That better be a really good trade off because I don't wanna give up Snakeform at will.

LoreKeeper wrote:

I suspect there is a new mechanic (or heavily expanded teamwork mechanic) that is used by them

Which I hope is not heavily Feat based. Tactic and teamwork stuff have almost always had it's downfall when they are turned into feats. The only system I've seen that actually worked was the one introduced late in 3.5 which only required a single feat to be a "leader" and then various perquisites for different kinds of teamwork. Most of which was logically related and stuff such a group would be using anyways.

That's already firmly in the realm of the Cavalier, so I don't think that'll be a general system.. Cavs can already give teamwork feats to others.

Church Sanctioned Bounty Hunters sound cool.

(Read: Inquisitors) :P

I'm super interested in all the ones that imply serious armor usage (armored hulk, gun tank, armor master, etc.) Also in several Paladin archetypes (Empyreal knight, b/c Empyreal Lords are so cool, Holy Gun, because whaaat??) and the tactics stuff.

Evangelist makes me laugh a little bit. Clerics who are bards? Maybe.

Actually, I kinda hope that Divine Hunter and Holy Gun are compatible.

Church Sanctioned Bounty Hunters sound cool.

Divine hunter's actually more archer-ish than bounty hunter-ish.

It occurs to me... maneuver master looks like a great one level dip. Bonus feat gets you a maneuver feat without the reviled combat expertise, and Flurry of Maneuvers not being weapon restricted means everyone gets to take advantage!

Lots of fun Multiclass possibility there...

It occurs to me... maneuver master looks like a great one level dip.

Hm. Interesting observation.

"When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities."

I bet that clause will affect the maneuver master as well. The first level ability is a nice feature, but only for an unarmored character.

I just hope that there are a lot of nice things for martial characters in this book. I am soooooooooo tired of hearing that phrase.

Divine hunter's actually more archer-ish than bounty hunter-ish.

Right, as seen by the preview art above.

However: There will probably be a nice collection of class features (given by the hunter part of its name) that give bonuses to things like Survival and tracking and stuff.

Also: Inquisitors, for some reason I forgot about them. However judging by the names of the new alternate class features (unless the iconoclast is one for the purpose of irony) none of them sound like they have guns.

And that's really what I want, more guns, And rocket launchers.

Caedwyr wrote:

I think it was mentioned in the past that it is more difficult to add archetypes to classes like Wizards, Sorcerers, or Clerics due to the lack of class features (it is a bit more true with Clerics, wizards are doing fine.) Also, since Bloodlines are already almost archetypes in all but name.

So Wizards are doing fine, even though they don`t have more Class abilities than Sorcerors with Bloodlines... Do you see the logical problem with that? This is apart from the fact that it`s dead easy to make Archetypes that DO modify Bloodlines powers, but in a generic way across the board, i.e. `all BL powers after 1st level are gained 3 levels later, and you don`t gain the Bonus Feats or 20th level Capstone`.

The fact I've linked the Archetype tables for Sorcerers, Wizards, and Clerics in this thread means I am well aware of what is available to be traded out for an archetype. In fact, my post referred to the number of class features available to be traded out (Wizards have more than clerics and are in a good position to have features traded out for an archetype). I think you are preaching to the choir here.

I'm not particularly keen on any of the gun archetypes, I'll certainly not be playing them any time soon. Nor bring them into games I GM. But there are several very exciting archetypes.

Does anybody have some good educated guesses or hopes?

• titan mauler - for my money this is an archetype for wielding over-sized weapons!
  
• there's a cavalier "strategist", cleric "divine strategist", fighter "tactician" and paladin "holy tactician" - I suspect there is a new mechanic (or heavily expanded teamwork mechanic) that is used by them
  

• thunderstriker - hopefully a bludgeoning weapon specialist. Bludgeoning weapons need some love.
  
• sensei - isn't a sensei a teacher? No idea what this will do.
  
• falconer - looking forward to this, with the current rules, a "bird" animal companion is so much weaker than f.e. cat or wolf, apart from flight.
  

LoreKeeper wrote:

I'm not particularly keen on any of the gun archetypes, I'll certainly not be playing them any time soon. Nor bring them into games I GM. But there are several very exciting archetypes.

Does anybody have some good educated guesses or hopes?

• titan mauler - for my money this is an archetype for wielding over-sized weapons!
  
• there's a cavalier "strategist", cleric "divine strategist", fighter "tactician" and paladin "holy tactician" - I suspect there is a new mechanic (or heavily expanded teamwork mechanic) that is used by them
  

• thunderstriker - hopefully a bludgeoning weapon specialist. Bludgeoning weapons need some love.
  
• sensei - isn't a sensei a teacher? No idea what this will do.
  
• falconer - looking forward to this, with the current rules, a "bird" animal companion is so much weaker than f.e. cat or wolf, apart from flight.
  

Sensei is not a teacher but a mark of respect to someone who knows more than you or who is your superior. A doctor is a sensei too for example, but in that case Sensei would probably mean "Master" since it's the translation that seems to fit best for the monk.

And I do understand Sorcerers are not the easiest class to make archetype for, but i still think it's kind of sad that one of the only alternative you have for them is another bloodline... I mean most archetype make you trade a few special ability that you will not use in the kind of play the archetype is made for, for special abilities that are useful.

When you get to the sorcerer, you only get completly different packages (bloodlines) that might go in the direction you wanted at some point, but in a totally different one most of the time, and that does not let you chose anything in it (exept the bonus feat but I mean come on... most of the time it's not that much of a choice...)

If you compare it to the Oracle, who's the Divine Sorcerer, the oracle is a lot more fun to build, since you choose revelation that suits you, leaving the others behind

So when I'm reading the oracle, I see lots of cool revelation powers that I can chose from, while when i look at the sorcerer i see, one power most of the time, maybe two things that i'll use, and a bunch of stuff I HAVE TO take no choice whatsoever...

I suspect that the use of "Sensei" in UC borrows heavily from the "teacher/master" aspect of the use; rather than the more correct Japanese meaning.

Actually, this makes me suspect that "Sensei" might be the monk-version of the strategist, divine strategist, holy tactician and tactician...

I suspect that the use of "Sensei" in UC borrows heavily from the "teacher/master" aspect of the use; rather than the more correct Japanese meaning.

Actually, this makes me suspect that "Sensei" might be the monk-version of the strategist, divine strategist, holy tactician and tactician...

I like that theory.

I am curious about archetypes too, interested particularly in barbarian ones as I am playing one in an upcoming level 10+ game a friend is running.

Any ideas on the Scarred Rager, Armoured Hulk, Titan Mauler or Wild Rager (shape changing??).

Also curious about Dervish Dancer, World Walker and Unbreakable. Anyway care to offer an ideas/hints on what these are? I would have really like if the preview had a few one line descriptions about some of the archetypes rather than class specific stuff. Monks are cool and all and in a role play rather than roll play game are already borderline OP.

Monks are cool and all and in a role play rather than roll play game are already borderline OP.

Wait...how can you be OP when RPing? If anything, the rogue/bard is OP at RPing because of the skill points and "Face" possibilities.

Lokius wrote:

Monks are cool and all and in a role play rather than roll play game are already borderline OP.

Wait...how can you be OP when RPing? If anything, the rogue/bard is OP at RPing because of the skill points and "Face" possibilities.

I meant in games where you are not able to be in full battle dress all the time or need a variety of skills other than DPR. Monks have a wide skill choice and can easily replace a rogue in the non social skills, have decent damage or the ability to help diable guards or other persons without injuring them. Has a much lesser need to be in armour, access to spell books etc.

Basically a monk can do a lot of things well even if it doesn't win the DPR olympics. In campaigns that are more about story and less about smacking the tar out of monsters they are awesome while still doing respectable damage for those moments.

People focus waaaaay too much on DPR and I think it is a result of the MMO min max generation more than anything. Monks have Kung Fu! KUNG FU DAMMIT! They have a lot of built in defenses, good saves, good utility, good maneouvres and respectable damage. People focus too much on DPR, blasting or save or die.

People focus waaaaay too much on DPR and I think it is a result of the MMO min max generation more than anything.

Not the way I hear it. Fighters and paladins didn't dream of gauntlets of ogre power and holy avengers in 1E because of roleplay considerations.

Matt Stich wrote:

Lokius wrote:

Monks are cool and all and in a role play rather than roll play game are already borderline OP.

Wait...how can you be OP when RPing? If anything, the rogue/bard is OP at RPing because of the skill points and "Face" possibilities.

I meant in games where you are not able to be in full battle dress all the time or need a variety of skills other than DPR. Monks have a wide skill choice and can easily replace a rogue in the non social skills, have decent damage or the ability to help diable guards or other persons without injuring them. Has a much lesser need to be in armour, access to spell books etc.

Basically a monk can do a lot of things well even if it doesn't win the DPR olympics. In campaigns that are more about story and less about smacking the tar out of monsters they are awesome while still doing respectable damage for those moments.

People focus waaaaay too much on DPR and I think it is a result of the MMO min max generation more than anything. Monks have Kung Fu! KUNG FU DAMMIT! They have a lot of built in defenses, good saves, good utility, good maneouvres and respectable damage. People focus too much on DPR, blasting or save or die.

huh people focus to much on 70% of the game /shrug, people are weird I guess.

To be fair, a guy in armor isn't ever out of place in a world still reliant on armor. And I know what your saying about the non-social non-combat areas of the game, monks kill at terrain obstacles, only problem is those DC's don't scale and everyone is doing it by level 6.

Matt Stich wrote:

Lokius wrote:

Monks are cool and all and in a role play rather than roll play game are already borderline OP.

Wait...how can you be OP when RPing? If anything, the rogue/bard is OP at RPing because of the skill points and "Face" possibilities.

I meant in games where you are not able to be in full battle dress all the time or need a variety of skills other than DPR. Monks have a wide skill choice and can easily replace a rogue in the non social skills, have decent damage or the ability to help diable guards or other persons without injuring them. Has a much lesser need to be in armour, access to spell books etc.

Basically a monk can do a lot of things well even if it doesn't win the DPR olympics. In campaigns that are more about story and less about smacking the tar out of monsters they are awesome while still doing respectable damage for those moments.

People focus waaaaay too much on DPR and I think it is a result of the MMO min max generation more than anything. Monks have Kung Fu! KUNG FU DAMMIT! They have a lot of built in defenses, good saves, good utility, good maneouvres and respectable damage. People focus too much on DPR, blasting or save or die.

+1

I blame PFS.

For a second there I thought I went back in time and stumbled into one of the monk threads.

May be the Piazo boards work on a cycle of: "Monks SUCK!" "Paladins SHOULD FALL!" and "What is Evil?" Threads.

Weird that everyone hates on things I like.

For a second there I thought I went back in time and stumbled into one of the monk threads.

May be the Piazo boards work on a cycle of: "Monks SUCK!" "Paladins SHOULD FALL!" and "What is Evil?" Threads.

Weird that everyone hates on things I like.

You like evil paladin monks?

:P

My archery themed rangers want that bow, especially if it's:

An illustration of how you make a composite bow for a +3 or +4 strength bonus

all that metal means it's designed to be able to smack a foe who's too close to shoot and the opponent get damaged and not the bow.

Especially if it's something you don't have to be an elf to make.

You like evil paladin monks?

:P

Best Gestalt Class ever.

Ravingdork wrote:

You like evil paladin monks?

:P

Best Gestalt Class ever.

If you rolled 16+ in every stat :P

Maybe the metal bits sticking out are meant to be for resting it on a window sill or castle wall during a defense. /musing

If you rolled 16+ in every stat :P

That's where loaded dice come into play.

Kaiyanwang wrote:

If you rolled 16+ in every stat :P

That's where loaded dice come into play.

Had a player do this once. It wasn't intentional, his loaded dice got mixed in with his regular dice, and he didn't realize it. He had two of them in his 4d6, so his minimum roll he could get was 13, but I think his lowest actually rolled was 15. Two games into it, he realized what had happened, fessed up, and we all laughed as he sat down and rolled with unloaded dice.

The first set had a highest roll of 14, and lowest of 4. We told him to reroll. The next one was worse. :) Then another one with two 5's, then a fourth one with a 3 in it. We finally were laughing so hard we couldn't even make snide comments from the peanut gallery.

I think I finally got out my GM dice and rolled him a set of stats, and ended up about two points off his original set, and we all just said heck with it and left his original stats in place. :)

Had a player do this once. It wasn't intentional, his loaded dice got mixed in with his regular dice, and he didn't realize it.

Gnarly, I normally use another person's dice whenever rolling to generate a random character.

That once payed off with no stat below a 12.

The not-mount-focused cavalier archetypes are Honor Guard, Luring Cavalier, Musketeer (completely gets rid of the mount), and standard bearer (switches Banner with Mount).

The not-mount-focused cavalier archetypes are Honor Guard, Luring Cavalier, Musketeer (completely gets rid of the mount), and standard bearer (switches Banner with Mount).

What's the Luring Cavalier do? kite foes?