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Hi, I just wanted to give some small mechanical things on the Kineticist designed to help encourage more play options:

1. Allow the damage dealt to object from telekinetic blast be optional. This should help players in object sparse locations not run out of things to throw as well as help players create more varied character styles within this field alone (Waka from Final Fantasy X becomes an option if the object is "safe" from the blast's harm.)

2. Allow Kinetic Fist to apply to all weapons, not just unarmed strike. The ability is still mechanicaly and flavorfuly distinct from Kinetic Weapon/Whip but expanding the number of legal weapons allows for expanded character archetypes (Gambit or Boom-Boom from X-men become easily possible, as well as several others.) You can even keep the name, since most every weapon is held in hand, re-flavoring that you wrap your hands and weapon in kinetic force is clean.

3. More Substances that benefit Melee, From reading the list of avilable substances only Pureflame, Pushing/Pressurized Blast, Magnetic, Chilling, and Rare Metal are able to interact in any meaningful way with Kinetic Weapon/Whip/Fist. While these are all cool and a great start, players wanting to focus primarily on melee kinetic combat would greatly appreciate more options that are either range agnostic (Combat Maneuvers!) or specifically benefit melee.

4. More balance between options for each element. From a cursorty perspective, it just looks like there are more options for Water and then Wind while Aether is super sparse. Either reflavoring some abilities to be universal (Pushing and Pressurized Blast being easy) or making more copies of the same ability for each element (which eats up word space, and I'm against that because it means less unique options get made) can hep fix this.

Oh, and I love the kineticist, greatest class I've had the pleasure of reading since I perused the Monk and Paladin.

My main gripe is that you might have to retroactively change your bloodline if you choose to multiclass into Bloodrager, but chose a sorcerer bloodline that the Bloodrager doesn't have access to. (This can be done in a whole lot of ways, Eldritch Heritage being the simplest.)

I wouldn't mind this so much if Paizo published a bloodline for everything they've made so far, so I can have Android Nanite Bloodrager NPCs ready for Numerian adventures. What's even worse is that a lot of the already existing bloodlines (Like Nanite, or Ork) work really well with Bloodrager already, but we're limited to some of the more generic

But anywho, I like Elemental more than I like Infernal or Dragon, since I think the ability of elemental damage to bypass resistance all the time is pretty huge compared to the conditional instances for the other two lines.

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Heh, this reminds me of a time I killed a PC in the first encounter. (Dude had a back-up "real" PC waiting in the wings to save the day.)

Freaked out the target players good. folks started theory crafting back-ups.

Granted, in my campaign everything teeters on the brink of destruction.

1. A kangaroo cannot take monk levels. This was spelled out in an FAQ a while back to clarify the intent of awakening animals and what-not. However, RAW allows for a significant amount of wiggle room in that regard, so it's up to your group to figure stuff out.

2. Effects that augment unarmed strike don't actually include the class feature. Again, there's some wiggle room for interpretation, but generally MUS only affects non-natural weapons. However, Feats and Ki-pool still buff the natural attack, so there's that.

Since it's an object, the BSF would be making a sunder attempt against the ice. If the BSF doesn't have improved sunder, then he triggers an attack of opportunity. If he does have improved sunder, then no AOO.

Greater Sunder specifically calls out Weapons, Shields and Suits of Armor, and since the ice-cage does not qualify as any of those, then no over-flow damage happens.

Wait, I'm utterly confused, when did they change the rullong on FoB?

My understanding is that you can use the full flurry with any monk weapon, and if you want to add in an unarmed strike somewhere in there, that's cool too, so long as you don't go over your requisite attacks.

If something has changed, then bummer, monk damage just took a huge nerf.

And @Dabbler: Monk DPR when built and geared properly is above average. Temple Sword (or Naginata if UC weapons and archetypes are allowed) is key to this.

Edit: Dabbler posted while I was doing my write-up, I'll leave this up because it goes in a little more detail.

I leave the forums for a year, and this old thread pops up again, I believe it a sign.

Weapons do not scale with unarmed strike damage. So if you use a Temple Sword, it stays at d8, and doesn't get bigger.

On enchanting unarmed strike: Before you can make a weapon magical, it needs to be masterwork, there are no current methods of making a Monk's body masterwork, so there is currently no way to make a Monk's body a magical weapon either.

On Unarmed vs. Weapons: My answer is based on min-maxed theory crafting, your campaign experience may vary. Manufactured weapons (Like Temple Swords, Nodachi, and others) are better for monks who want to deal damage. this is for three reasons.

1. They can be enchanted, this not only increases both toHit and damage, but also helps bypass the ever so frustrating DR. As of now, unarmed strike can only bypass DR using the Martial Artist archetype, or being at a level that consider your unarmed strike as lawful.

2. They're cheaper. To get a +attak/damage stat for unarmed strike you have to use an amulet of might fists. The price for one amulet is over twice as much for a single weapon, and is still more expensive than buying two magical weapons, putting the monk at a cost disadvantage if they go unarmed. On top of that, AoMF cannot bypass DR without using up the slots for special enhancements like Holy, while a manufactured weapon only needs to reach a certain point threshold.

3. Crit range is more important than damage die. While having 2d10 damage dice make you feel like hot-stuff, most of the damage in the game comes from modifiers as opposed the size of the dice, so a Temple Sword is on average better than a lvl 20 fist.

On Stunning Fist: Ki is a +1 magical enhancment that allows it to be used with a manufactured weapon, so anyone interested in using both it and a temple sword just need to invest properly. Also, many of the monks alternatives to stunning fist like Ghost Kick or Elemental Fist only require that the monk be attacking, so the ki property isn't needed.

Ashenfall wrote:
Also, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Enemy NPCs will have just as easy a time hitting the PCs with RTAs, as the PCs would have, hitting them.

Right, I don't want my NPCs shredding my PC's apart with touch spells (which they're less likely to be immune or resistant to). Just because NPCs can use an option doesn't make it balanced (see CoDzilla)

As much as I think it would be cool, I'm apprehensive about throwing gun-slinging NPCs at the party because it would be trivial to hit their touch ACs at this point for too many of them.

A medium creature takes up one five foot square

A large creature takes up four five foot squares

Four small creatures fit in one five foot square.

Hope that helps.

On the Lycanthrope front: What does MCWOD have in terms of lycanthropy that using the lycanthrope template and building an NPC not cover? I'm just curious on the differences.

For level appropriate challenges: Look at the monster creation table, if the numbers fall within the margins of that chart, you should be fine for CR.

Icyshadow wrote:

So it's a Skyrim horse?

Looking back on it, yes it is was very much a Skyrim horse. Held its own soooo well in combat.

mmmmm Caviar archetypes.

Some more that I remember -

During a tournament, I used up all of my Elemental fist attempts to to explode, dealing lethal damage to everyone but the enemy fighter, who was so badly charred that the match was declared inconclusive.

Got thrown at and successfully grappled a dire-bat while it was just hanging there on a stalactite.

As a Monk of the Sacred Mountain, I was used as an impromptu wall so that whenever the fighter shield bashed his opponent was knocked prone.

My Paladin's bonded mount took Savage Warrior levels

The boss of an encounter got taken out in one shot by a lvl 1 NPC archer.

He's still not Batman.

And really, I don't care much for his sidekicks.

SwnyNerdgasm wrote:
What does everybody have against Robin?

He's not Batman.

One that sticks out right now:

Party just apreheneded a possessed man, so they take him to jail. After they lock him away, ghost possesses the gunslinger. Ghost tuants the party, and then then compells the gunslinger to finish a ritual.

Gunslinger bursts through the window, trying to lose the party. Whip fighter then tries to trip the gunslinger through the window. He rolls a 20. Gunslinger (and essentially the chase that would've happened) is now caught by the party.

Both the ninja and samurai are sub-classes (in essence archetypes that change the name of the class, but cannot multiclass with their parent.)

At lest, that how I understand them.

Colored Powders, or dyed flower, are both non-permanent and easily washed off in a bath/river/shower/what have you.

A polytheistic paladin is none the less interesting if not a little strange for my tastes. Regardless, since the CRB is the guideline for code, I'll talk to the GM about the prankings (assuming you haven't already done so), clarifying that so long as the pranks are both harmless and don't break the law that it wouldn't risk the paladin falling.

That way you have for sure a clear idea as to what your GM is o.k. with, and what they're not. Especially since the CRB's paladin code essentially reads "GM fiat controls your class abilities."

LazarX's cunning analysis of writing belies the fact that anyone can figure out who a poster really is by clicking on the name (Kelsey has an easier time of deduction because her main profile has her name on it.)

Anyways.... a couple of questions, then some more general suggesstions:

1. Paladin of What/Who. That should help with figuring out what limits the limits are for your code.

2. How is the familiar getting played? Is it just another animal that happens to also kinda be a spell-book? or is it an intelligent being that communicates w/ the party? If the later, see if it's willing to prank a little bit.

General suggestions:

Replace the familiar with another, albeit mundane animal of it's type. That way when the witch is trying to prepare spells, it doesn't work, flustering her a bit. Of course giving the familiar back to her so that she can then prepare her spells is for the best.

Jokingly "feed" her familiar to her. Obviously not actually killing and cooking the thing, just another more mundane animal into a stew.

Paint pranks, either by having some fall on her, or by dipping her familiar and coloring it that way. She'd really appreciate a hot-pink fox!

On a related note, if the familiar has fur, shave it. Birds are trickier seeing as how follicle damage from plucking is easy, which means the feathers won't grow back.

@Calagar: I'm not sure who that's directed to. If it's in response to my post then I'm going to say that the folks I play with do something similar, but it's more or less before there's even any inkling of play going on for that session.

Every player gets to and does make their own character, fleshing out the concept and what they want to do. The group as always lends a hand in fleshing out the crunch of it.

and @Kamelguru: I don't think the OP's post is one where he wants everyone to be able to do everything equally, he's just afraid that some of the more math-savy players might create characters that make the experience less enjoyable for the others.

The_Big_Dog wrote:

I completely agree with you from a biological reproductive standpoint. But, take a look at dogs. Most of them can breed together. Compare a Pug to a Greyhound. Who is more nimble and agile? Probably the Greyhound, regardless of size. How you carry your weight is very important.

I thought all domesticated dogs can breed together. So yes a pug (the orc in this example?) and a greyhound (the obvious elf) can breed to make a potentially very interesting looking animal. But an Elf and an Orc cannot in most fantasy settings, even if they can breed with people.

Regardless, the vast array and builds of dogs very mirrors the wide array in which humanity has diversified its appearance, but like dogs, all humans are the same species, even though a tribal South African looks very different from some one of Japanese descent, who once again looks distinct from an Irishman. And even within those cultures, you have both your pugs and your greyhounds.

Victyr Korimir wrote:

Or it says something specific about the nature of humanity.

If there is a plausible explanation as to why certain species are related and can thus breed, then I'm down for that. Whether it's due to some magic or god-meddling or w/e. But rarely is there ever an explanation for anything.

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Orcs and elves can not breed together.

This is conjecture. And really, the only thing that bothers me about fantasy in general, there are half human hybrids, but not half-other hybrids. It's just lazy world building, and honestly only done to represent certain groups of people as having some sort of "exotic" characteristic.

Also, from a biology standpoint, if Humans can breed w/ Elves and Orcs, but Orcs cannot breed with Elves, then that probably means that Humans would be the common ancestor of both Orcs and Elves. There are a couple of other explanations, but I'm a little hazy on the terminology, and thus being able to explain it would be difficult.

Regardless, a more biological explanation normally flies in the face of the history of a particular fantasy setting, which breaks verisimilitude for me.

@The_Big_Dog: Which implies a whole slew of things...... And it's rarely ever explained. It follows a very sloppy understanding of how things reproduce and it's really just so that the world builder can mash together their favorite pet monsters into one Super-cool-thing.

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Elves are not human.

From a normal biology standpoint, Since Elves (and Orcs!) can breed and create fertile offspring, they are more or less the same species.

Same goes for Good and Evil aligned outsiders.

Having a session dedicated to character building. A "session 0" if you will. That way, players who don't have as much time to look things over can set a side a good chunk of time to build a character and get feed back from the GM, and more knowledgeable players.

I've done this basically every singe time I've played, and every character has come out to be around the same power level. It also helps people become more cognizant of what everyone else is doing and can even spawn some interesting character-to-character interactions that otherwise wouldn't be there. (Such as being siblings, known childhood friends, or the other person's pet)

Many of my characters are mechanically minded, so while they'll have solid and cool concepts of who their character is, a lot of that person's history if very much fudged or not really considerered.

That made a few of my players squirm during cross-examination by the prosecutor in the Trial of the beast (basic questions such as where you come from, how do you know this for a fact etc.etc.etc.)

It's funny seeing them freak out about the littleist thing.

Also: the following quote from one of my players: "Court is boring, my character is going to get drunk." Then the player goes home. (he needed to leave anyways, I just thought the delivery was pretty great.)

Ashenfall wrote:

Despite that, I think Anguish makes a good point. I still have a problem with the mechanics of the feats, simply from the perspective that a mage is "wasting" feat slots by taking point blank shot, precise shot, improved precise shot, etc. When the mage could alternately be taking metamagic feats, these feats are a waste, imo. But to say that a mage could take them and apply them to rays is by no means overpowered. Personally, I'd rather see mages use their caster level as their BAB for making RTAs with spells.

That's really hard to balance in certain instances. If the player's are going on a monster hunt, then more of the monsters overtime have less and less Touch AC, so they become easier to hit as time goes one. Combine this with the fact that most touch AC's don't get all that high to begin with, and one has the recipe for almost always hitting touch spells.

It's the same complaint people have w/ Gunslinger DPR (something as a GM I'm currently on the look out for in my Campaign to make sure that everyone in my party of face beaters is able to kick ass and take names accordingly.)

A thing to note about Adventure Paths: Modify them to suit your party. Adding more enemies in theme to the enocunter, and increasing the power level of enemies could help reign in the Barbarian.

On the barbarian rocking more than the res of the party in this situation: AP's are fairly well designed to reward people for having most all of their bases covered, so as long as everyone else is also having fun doing their thing, then there shouldn't be much of a problem. It seems that he's the only one focusing on combat, so trying to balance combat encounter around him is one possible option.

Other suggestions to make for longer combats: More enemies that are weaker. He'll be wrecking a dude or two every round, but it should give the Rogue and Paladin the ability to foray into combat for a little bit too.

Another idea would be to have other encounters that showcase the strength of your other characters. A series of skill checks/RP moments could help share the "spotlight" with the other players.

PSY850 wrote:
as a lawful alignment is supposed to mean you follow the laws of the land.

Correction, a lawful alignment CAN mean that the individual is supposed to follow local laws and customs, but that doesn't hold for everyone.

One can be a lawful character by having a strict code of conduct that is outside of the purview of the local authority, and it could very well include things such as hunting down and eliminating slavers.

It's all up to GM discression though.

Amulet of Mighty Fists ASAP. Getting your style to also apply to your bite so you have a full suite of Natural attacks to use with it.

Get the second Dragon Style feat in the chain and then you add 1.5 STR to your Unarmed Strike, Claw, and Bite giving you plenty of attacks, and a good deal of damage.

In the end you'll have 4 Unarmed Strikes, Two Claws, and One bit to use. Not half bad. I'd also suggest taking power attack whenever you can, and getting gloves of dueling to further increase weapon damage bonuses to your unarmed strike.

Other than that I think you can build this guy pretty flexibly. Enjoy.

That's true.

I'll look do the Math for a lvl 10 Fighter.

Edit: I did the math, Comparing MiB's Zweihander Zelda to Broken Impact Isaac, only really swapping out improved Damage multiplier for Ciritcal Focus.

Now, MiB's Zelda had a max DPR of around 64, using Power attack and all other mechanics avialable to her

Isaac has a DPR of 62.... without Power attacking. Using Power Attack, his DPR is 79, a 19% increase in Damage. It's safe to say that most @CR creatures are not prepared to withstand firepower of that magnitude. Add in crazy things like Haste, and BOOM goes the dynamite.

@TalonHawke: I'm not very much gonna concern myself with balancing lvl 20 abilities. I might do the DPR for kicks, but not right now.

@Irulesmost: Yeah that sounds fair, I'll let the players know that this is an option, and I'll add the phrase "or threat range" to the stacking clause.

So i'm thinking of may be making the following available to players in games I GM:


Aura Moderate Transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms & Amror, Heighten Impact; Price +1 Bonus


This ability increases the damage multiplier of a weapon by 1. This benefit doesn't stack with other spell effects, weapon properties and feats that increase the damage multiplier of a weapon(Such as the Heighten Impact Spell or the Improved Damage Multiplier Feat).

Heighten Impact:

School Transmutation Level Inquisitor 3, Magus 3, Sorcer/Wizard 3;

Casting Time 1 Standard Action
Components V,S

Range Close [25 ft. + 5 ft./2 Levels]
Targets One weapon or 50 projectiles, all of which must be together at the time of casting
Duration 10 min/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)

Description This spell magically improves a weapon's impact, increasing the damage it deals during a critical hit. This transmutation increases the damage multiplier of the weapon by 1. A damage multiplier of 2 becomes 3. A damage multiplier of 3 becomes 4. A damage multiplier of 4 becomes 5. If cast on arrows or crossbow bolts, the keen edge on a particular projectile ends after one use, whether or not the missile strikes its intended target. Treat shuriken as arrows, rather than as thrown weapons, for the purpose of this spell.

Multiple spell effects, weapon properties and feats that increase a weapon's damage multiplier (such as the impact special weapon property and the Improved Damage Multiplier feat) don't stack. You can't cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as a claw.

Improved Damage Multiplier:

Critical attacks made with your chosen weapon are quite deadly.

Prerequisite: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8.

Benefit: When using the weapon you selected, your damage multiplier is increased by one.

Special: You can gain Improved Damage Multiplier multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

This effect doesn't stack with any spell effect, weapon property or feat that increase the damage multiplier of a weapon.

A note on the stack wording: I want this effect to still work with a Fighter's capstone ability Weapon Mastery. I think that if someone wants to take their Naginata all the way to a x6 multiplier, they are more than welcome to.

Now here is my conundrum: Should I allow this to also stack with things that increase a weapon's threat range as well? Doing so will definitely create a very powerful option for characters, and increase DPR, but is it unbalancing?

Or should I keep this as more of an option for players who don't want more crits, but bigger ones?

MyTThor wrote:

Ok I'm not a math guy by any means, but I have a couple questions:

Does the fact that you used an unrealistic hit frequency (anything other than a 1 hits) have any statistical significance?

No, and this is for a couple of reasons.

1. When you have two different weapons, so long as your comparing the same chance to hit, it doesn't matter what hit frequency you use, it'll come out the same in terms of ratios (which is what would be compared, as the difference between damage changes with accuracy and damage modifiers, but the ratio of damage does not.) This is what (I think) Egoish said in a nutshell.

2. The way DPR calculates damage already takes into account both The chance that something is a critical threat, and the chance that critical threat is confirmed.

3. I'm under the assumption that this guide will contain extensive coverage of all aspects of weapon use and may be even modification. So it will show the numbers and compare things like how keen/improved critical affects things like Scimitars, Greatswords, and Clubs.

Uninvited Ghost wrote:
Prestige classes in Pathfinder are lacking (in number/choices). The pendulum has swung too far back the other way from 3.X

All old Prestige classes work with Pathfinder, so if you're allowed old content, that might provide some cool options.

W E Ray wrote:

Still, not everyone uses the Planescape, Alignment-is-absolute model. And it's not the default model for D&D.

It actually is. In lots of different threads when asked about alignment (Particularly is Summoning an Evil Outsider an evil act) spells with the evil descriptor are concretely evil acts, always and forever. Doesn't matter if you used blood crow strike to stop a murder or summoned Barbazu to save an orphanage, those two actions are concretely evil. (Again, this is distinct from actually stopping the murder and saving the orphanage, both of which are separate actions weighed individually from the other actions)

And I fundamentally disagree with alignment being the purview of the players. Alignment is a setting concern, and as such always the jurisdiction of the GM. It is as always the responsibility of the GM to communicate to their players how alignment works in the world, the only time players have a say in the way actions are weighed comes from talking with the GM to get input, and convince in one direction or the other.

Though I've now been interested in an idea: Why not create a guide to Alignment options? A sort of rulebook detailing all sorts of ways in which alignment can be deployed in a world, ranging from it's complete absence (and a set of rules that help convert spells and effects that deal with alignment into an alingmentless world) To a very concrete every action is X, Neutral, or Y.

It's a special bonus to AC, The monk gets to add Wis in addition to Dex to AC, likewise, both the Duelist and Kensai get to add Int and Dex to AC.

Multiclasing results in a class that adds Wis, Int and Dex to AC.

Party composition is important. Also, how do the players pilot their characters?

My suggestions will be different if all six of the players are built to be face beaters than if they were a more "balanced" party.

1. Talk to your GM, let him know that the way Rovengo was portrayed made the whole town much less sympathetic to help, this is important for the upcomming Arc, and a couple of the later adventures.

2. Never "drop" an issue w/ your GM in the sense that if something is bothering you, let him know. It's important to give feed back so they can modify the adventure to fit the party.

In response to Ustalav being NE, The town of Rovengo is NG in the Adventure splat book. They're a gossipy rumor-mongering town, but not anywhere near xenophobic as people might portray them. At least, I didn't portray them that way.

mplindustries wrote:

Well, I personally, would like to dump Strength and NOT dump Charisma. That'd be my goal. If it were up to me, I'd melee fight entirely with Charisma and Intelligence and dump all my other stats. Well, maybe keep a little Dex.

I see your point about the point buy, but I would be willing to pay an exorbitant number of feats to cover the extra point buy.

Which means that on 20 pt buy you can have two 18's before racials.... Not countering some of the traits already in the game that can add Cha to Init, etc.

Man, that would be the greatest Gestatlt Wizard/Sorcereer ever.

As for food, I'm always a fan of Chili, Hamburgers, Enchiladas, and other sorts of fun.

mplindustries wrote:

option for non-precision melee damage while dumping strength.

Yeah..... that's something that would be neat because I like making stats modular, but it's also very broken.

The Bold was from my emphasis, Allowing DEX to attack and Damage makes STR a dump stat on par with CHA. So you'd in essence be able to get an additional 8 points off of a point by system, since both of those stats would in essence only affect skill. Encumberance is very much handwaived by GMs, and if not, a handy Haversack/Bag of holding should do fine.

Besides, Scimitars are awesome...

Yora wrote:

Alignment works, but only if you keep it simple and don't go too much into detail.
This one works perfectly well.

I guess I should've rephrased my statement.

Arguments about alignment are overblown. I think the system as is is fine, and I still use it in my games because I like the idea that the quintessential moral essence of a being has an impact on how magic and other things intereact with them.

And I'm pretty O.K. with them.

In fact, I'm more than willing to help out organizing some spread sheet loving to help the math along quicker.

To answer you question, No, balancing options is not anti-fun, the opinion of a developer on a Lord of the Rings RPG doesn't mean much in this regard.

And of course it's always a matter of degree. A properly min-maxed Two-Handed fighter might deal more damage than the rest of the party, but that doesn't mean the Four-Winds/Sacred Mountain Monk isn't a mean combatant in his own right, or that the Rogues trap-finding and disable device aren't invaluable.

However a Gestalt Cleric/Ranger would probably blow a lot of folks out of the water since they get an animial companion, lots of skills, spells, Domain abilities, bonus feats etc. Such a character could easily neutralize encounters left and right, making the party feel like there's no point to being there, and giving the GM a hard time of building encounters.

For sure, add in APG, and UC and suddenly you have tons of options (And weapon choices too!)

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Right, and the cool thing is that this same analysis applies for weapons of a particular crit rating as well.

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Abraham spalding wrote:

In fact if you count in bracers of armor a monk can actually meet the AC of fighters, however it does require paying very close attention to what you are doing.

And honestly, I'm okay with that. The monk isn't really a class I would recommend for every player. In fact I would only recommend it for players that have shown a talent for the numbers and have an advanced understanding of the system involved.

My only disagreement here is that I think every option should be as easy to build and ply together as every other option. Especially since few people play things for mechanics, but for flavor.

On that note, almost universally since I've started playing inexperienced, or unnattentive players have been the ones that have gravitated to the monk because of the class's innate radness. This can be problematic when the player doesn't have any idea as to how to properly build the character for the roles envisioned by that player.

I'm with Lobolusk, monks are rad.

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I alignment is overblown. People make waaay too much of a fuss over it, and in the end, don't even come to a concensus when the discussion is all said and done.

Blodox wrote:
the only succubus I trust.

The last mistake many a demonologist make.

I second Kilokotroni's advice. While I enver ended up gaming with them (I didn't start until College) there were several players who were already into D&D.

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