Ultimate Combat Preview #1

EDIT: Hey. It just occured to me. A 3rd level maneuver master with Improved Grapple is going to really annoy monsters with Grab, isn't it?

The Grapple-always-provokes is already in the Pugilist Barbarian BTW... This just expands it to ALL Maneuvers.

Ya know, some folks here make it real easy for me to know how agonizingly old you are (no offense). The ones that critique the half-elf image are definitely not of my generation. I grew up on heroes being dudes like Cloud Strife from Final Fantasy 7 and many anime out there, so to me, that looks like a normal pic of a warrior as opposed to the ZOMG reactions I see from others

This comic applies to me all too often: http://xkcd.com/386/

Anime doesn't have a style, nor does manga. While ravingdork found a dictionary definition, as with many things the dictionary is not nearly a suitable resource for finding out what something truly is.

The word anime being used in English is best defined as animation produced for a Japanese audience. That means when Japanese production companies are hiring Koreans and others to produce their animation, it is still anime as it was created for the Japanese to watch. Similarly, when Japanese studios are recruited to help out with animation being created for the US or elsewhere, that is not anime. Things sometimes get complicated when you talk about Marvel hiring anime studios to make Marvel anime, but since that is premiering on Japanese TV it is anime. I disagree that all the kids out there drawing cat girls and kitsune are drawing "manga". They are inspired by manga sure, but it's not manga.

On the same topic, there is no anime style. Yes, many things look similar, especially within the same genre. I won't dispute that many shoujo titles look the same and many shounen titles look the same. Similarly, many characteristics (slender limbs, big eyes, etc.) are shared in many genres. But there are countless examples of why there is no one style. Berserk, Dead Leaves, Crying Freeman, Panty and Stocking, Panda Z, and many others diverge dramatically from what many Americans would call "anime style."

So when you talk about something like the paladin image, by all means complain it's too anime looking. But in reality that just means it's similar to one anime style. And at this point in time, the last 10+ years of American cartoons and comics have been heavily influenced by Japanese styles so who is to say where the artists their influences today? I say let the artists draw what they want and judge each piece on its own merits.

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On a COMPLETELY unrelated note, I don't think anybody has mentioned it but I thought of an awesome way to use the whirlwind maneuver from the Maneuver Master. At that level it should be fairly easy to get Enlarge Person and True Strike, whether from a party caster, alchemist or an item. Then have your alchemist party member let you borrow (infusion discovery) a Fluid Form extract. Boom, you are now a large monk with a 20 ft. natural reach and the ability to (once per day) do a single combat maneuver with a +20 bonus against every enemy within range.

hogarth wrote:

I'll have to dig up the impassioned defense of "monks aren't supposed to get Greater maneuver feats as bonus feats and that's a good thing".

I don't want to answer in place of James Jacobs, but is my personal opinion that the game changes and maybe they changed their mind about it.

If is the case is a good thing because they just listened people and addressed their concerns.

I agree. But I'm a petty person, so I get a certain amount of smug satisfaction that, after years of saying "notwithstanding our own monk examples to the contrary, monks aren't supposed to get any special treatment when it comes to combat maneuvers, being the best at combat maneuvers isn't the monk's niche, etc.", they change their minds to agree with my point of view.

;-)

I`d say the `Standard Action Maneuvers` like Grapple and Bullrush seem to be the biggest difference of what Manuever Masters can Flurry vs. normal Monks.

I'd really love some clarification on how bull rush will work with flurry of maneuvers. It's not clear to me whether a monk has access to his movement speed during the flurry or not; normally the answer would be no, but bull rush specifically allows movement "if you have the available move to do so," and I'm not sure what that means in this context.

If he can, though, the recent FAQ on bull rushes would make for some astonishing tricks with monk move speeds and the ability to flurry the manuevers.

Thanks, Paizo, for the preview! UC has been on the must-buy list for some time.

The great: Archetypes. They are, hands-down, my favorite addition to the game. The ones listed are pretty tantalizing. Can't wait.

The good: Interesting listing of weapons. Seems there will be plenty of non-class-related content as well and that's a very good thing. Here's hoping some of the expansions/variants like Armor as DR and injury systems get more than a page or two.

Also glad to see Ninja and Samaurai are alternate classes and that Paizo is keeping to the idea that alternate classes are essentially in-depth archetypes. While I still think they could have just been archetypes, I can see why they went this route.

The meh: Gunslinger, & firearms in general. Yeah, the RPG line is separate from Golarion. Yeah, Golarion is my setting to do what I will with from a campaign perspective. I still contend, however, that this will have an adverse effect on the setting and/or campaigns -- either through incremental changes to the setting (low-medium likelihood) or through player expectations (It's Paizo official product -- why CAN'T I use it?) (Very high likelihood.) In either case, not worth it, IMO.

I get the appeal firearms have to many fantasy gamers. However, I think it's a topic better served in a sourcebook tied specifically to sword-n-planet gaming, sci-fi/post-apoc, or "campaign options" style of book. (Again, IMO.)

the bad: Don't like that picture either.

I'm still somewhat bitter that Arnold Tsang got chased out by the residents for getting his anime-inspired art into their pristine, pseudo-European medieval fantasy. G+##%+n puritans... or was that purists? Can't tell the difference.

Ya know, some folks here make it real easy for me to know how agonizingly old you are (no offense). The ones that critique the half-elf image are definitely not of my generation. I grew up on heroes being dudes like Cloud Strife from Final Fantasy 7 and many anime out there, so to me, that looks like a normal pic of a warrior as opposed to the ZOMG reactions I see from others

That's cool. Whether it dates me or not, however, when I look at most of the Final Fantasy dudes, I can't help but wonder why they all look like feminized (or at best, androgynous) emo wusses that lack the muscle tone to lift a regular weapon, let alone the giant-sized ones they often carry.

For me, it's not a "ZOMG" reaction so much as a "Valeros could kick his pretentious emo-ass and wrap that stupid bow around his oversized armor" kind of reaction. YMMV.

(In fairness, however, the fact that the archer apparently can't nock the arrow on the string correctly probably isn't making his pout look as intimidating as he'd like...)

The bow and the arrow in the image are bothering me. It just doesn't look right for some fundamental reason.

It's how they're held. Notice that the bowstring's outside the arm holding the weapon? Impossible to aim correctly unless the right (character's right) hand is repositioned.

On a COMPLETELY unrelated note, I don't think anybody has mentioned it but I thought of an awesome way to use the...

No! You've completely missed out on the real possibilities here: building a wizened (yet perverted) sage who can steal Kyra's, Seoni's, Seelah's and Amiri's panties in one turn. (I purposefully excluded Merisiel, as she would just say "what panties?" - and a wizened perverted sage has high Perception / Sense Motive and would know she's gone commando).

I'd really love some clarification on how bull rush will work with flurry of maneuvers. It's not clear to me whether a monk has access to his movement speed during the flurry or not; normally the answer would be no, but bull rush specifically allows movement "if you have the available move to do so," and I'm not sure what that means in this context.

To be clear, you don`t need to move yourself to Bullrush. The Flurry is a Full Attack, which you can `intersperse` at any point with a 5` step... That is standard for non-Monks even. Beyond that, you can`t use any other movement within the Flurry/Full Attack, since even if you have a bonus Move Action from some source, that is a separate action which can`t be interspersed like 5` steps can.

I know you don't have to move to bull rush - the question I'm trying to get at is whether flurry + bull rush might get around the usual restrictions on movement, given the way bull rush is written. It doesn't ordinarily come up, since bull rush is a standard action, but making it usable during a full attack action raises a potential loophole.

I'm still somewhat bitter that Arnold Tsang got chased out by the residents for getting his anime-inspired art into their pristine, pseudo-European medieval fantasy. G*$@&%n puritans... or was that purists? Can't tell the difference.

FYI, it has nothing to do with the period/ethnic trappings of the fantasy setting in question. There`s plenty of pseudo-European medieval fantasy anime.

Anyhow, I find it absurd the number of peopling denying the image resembles `anime` whatever that is, when Jason and Erik Mona themselves are saying there is no more `anime-esque` illustrations in the book, ie. confirming they find the illustration `anime-esque`. I would say that Lodoss Wars is a very appropriate comparision to the illustration, and that is certainly a `D&D-esque setting anime`.

I'm still somewhat bitter that Arnold Tsang got chased out by the residents for getting his anime-inspired art into their pristine, pseudo-European medieval fantasy. G+@#*&n puritans... or was that purists? Can't tell the difference.

Hmm, that reminds me more of a comic-book style from the 70's and 80's.

Anime, manga, cartoons... I don't know the difference. But I know I hate this kind of "art" that looks like it was done by a computer program. It's soulless and dead-eyed and unimaginative... Maybe it's creative in its way, but art like this is where the imagination goes to die and be buried in a plastic casket.

It tells no story -- it looks like packaging for an action figure.

Give me the quirky, old-school art and illustrations any day. It tended toward rough and crude, but it had heart.

/old-man rant off

I know you don't have to move to bull rush - the question I'm trying to get at is whether flurry + bull rush might get around the usual restrictions on movement, given the way bull rush is written. It doesn't ordinarily come up, since bull rush is a standard action, but making it usable during a full attack action raises a potential loophole.

I`m not sure what you mean then, in both Full Attack and Standard Action Bullrush cases, you can use a 5` step interspersed with either action. Charges have their entire movement which you can use, and I`m not sure what the intent with the Bullrush FAQ is, though it may be intended that you can use a Move Action to follow them (while adjusting their trajectory), although that might have problems with basic action structure... I wouldn`t be surprised if that FAQ is further clarified, though, given the issues it brought up.

Quoting myself to empahsize the point:

bull rush specifically allows movement "if you have the available move to do so," and I'm not sure what that means in this context.

If you beat your target's CMD by 5 or more, you can move with them if you have "available move." The question is, do you have "available move" during a full attack action or not? You can't take move actions, obviously, but can you move anyway because of how bull rush is written?

Zark wrote:

I want FEATS.

The feats table alone takes up nine pages in this book. Trust me, there are plenty of feats in this book. :D

Nice. Thanks for the feedback :-)

Anyhow, I find it absurd the number of peopling denying the image resembles `anime` whatever that is, when Jason and Erik Mona themselves are saying there is no more `anime-esque` illustrations in the book, ie. confirming they find the illustration `anime-esque`. I would say that Lodoss Wars is a very appropriate comparision to the illustration, and that is certainly a `D&D-esque setting anime`.

It's not absurd that people choose to talk and argue about things they are passionate about. There is a huge thread going on right now debating snake barding. I'm not taking sides, merely mentioning that having that long of a discussion of that issue might seem absurd ;)

Jason and Erik were addressing previous posts so it makes sense to use the same terms. Rarely does the staff arbitrarily go around talking about the level of anime in illustrations, usually just in response to somebody complaining about it.

I don't have a problem when people say off the cuff that something is anime-esque or has an anime style as people usually know what you mean. It's when people start talking about how they hate anime style or say things similar to "get your anime out of my ____". At that point it's gone past using the term as a convenient reference point (like Erik and Jason did) and using it as a disparaging term. I see that as a narrow-minded viewpoint.

No! You've completely missed out on the real possibilities here

The real possibilities are beginning to scare me.

Regarding the art:

While I see a little bit of manga stylings in this piece, it doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the amount of wrong in the piece.

[rant]

I'm not sure what the argument is all about on the art. It's good. Yes, it looks like Lodoss war. Not sure that's a bad thing at all.

If you're objecting to the head vs body proportions, you should go read an art book about comics, that is pretty standard. Chest and torso are always bigger than normal, with wide shoulders and lots of muscles. In fact, they use the head as a multiplier to get the chest size (it's 5 I think).

As to real life, I've known people before with that sort of build. I knew a guy back when I was 14. He was western samoan, he was 17, 6 foot 6, and had shoulders that were nearly four feet wide. He looked like a golf tee with pea on top. His head was very small for his body, much more so than this elf guy.

For the maneuver master monk, when he uses his maneuver defense does this attack of opportunity count against your normal number per round?

I thought some combat maneuvers could already be used multiple times in a round like trip, disarm, and dirty tricks.

If you're objecting to the head vs body proportions, you should go read an art book about comics, that is pretty standard. Chest and torso are always bigger than normal, with wide shoulders and lots of muscles. In fact, they use the head as a multiplier to get the chest size (it's 5 I think).

It's 3 for chest-and-shoulders width. And the style of oversized bodies was something utilized primarily in the 90's, inspired by Rob Liefeld, creator of such travesties as Young Blood and Cable and...well...this is how he drew captain america.

Deadpool's evolved into something pretty amazing, though.

These days, it is extremely downplayed and most comics attempt some semblance of realism in the proportions of their characters.

...Catch Phrase,

-Chris

now for the question is: does vital strike stack with siege weapons? a heavy catapult with greater vital strike gives ya 24d6...

now for the question is: does vital strike stack with siege weapons? a heavy catapult with greater vital strike gives ya 24d6...

*sigh* This makes me cringe. Aiming a catapult at one man is damn near impossible. Unless they stand still in one place for long periods of time. And you get lucky. It's a siege weapon. You throw rocks at castles. Castles don't move and they're big targets. Same for trebuchets. Even a ballista is damn hard to aim at small targets. It's for tossing javelin sized bolts into crowds (or at ships and castles). At this point, I don't care what the rules say or what loophole is cited, my players will not be sniping with siege weapons...

End of rant. Glad to get that one off my chest :)

ulgulanoth wrote:

now for the question is: does vital strike stack with siege weapons? a heavy catapult with greater vital strike gives ya 24d6...

*sigh* This makes me cringe. Aiming a catapult at one man is damn near impossible. Unless they stand still in one place for long periods of time. And you get lucky. It's a siege weapon. You throw rocks at castles. Castles don't move and they're big targets. Same for trebuchets. Even a ballista is damn hard to aim at small targets. It's for tossing javelin sized bolts into crowds (or at ships and castles). At this point, I don't care what the rules say or what loophole is cited, my players will not be sniping with siege weapons...

End of rant. Glad to get that one off my chest :)

Polybolos and Scorpio were both sniping siege weapons. Used against infantry.

ulgulanoth wrote:

now for the question is: does vital strike stack with siege weapons? a heavy catapult with greater vital strike gives ya 24d6...

*sigh* This makes me cringe. Aiming a catapult at one man is damn near impossible. Unless they stand still in one place for long periods of time. And you get lucky. It's a siege weapon. You throw rocks at castles. Castles don't move and they're big targets. Same for trebuchets. Even a ballista is damn hard to aim at small targets. It's for tossing javelin sized bolts into crowds (or at ships and castles). At this point, I don't care what the rules say or what loophole is cited, my players will not be sniping with siege weapons...

End of rant. Glad to get that one off my chest :)

barring the fact that we don't have te book yet, so we don't know the details..

barring what cheapy posted.

Aiming with extraordinary precision with a siege engine would be the deed i would expect from an hero specialized in it. Is that wrong?

As for the art I think his shoulder look wider than they are due to the armor. As for the boots to me they look metal on the sides and from the ankle up but the tops of the boots and up to the ankle look more like polished leather.

The one thing I find odd about the image is how exactly is that arrow hanging there.

Dark Mistress is right about the arrow....it's not even being held.

My biggest issue with the whole picture is that this archer only has ONE arrow to begin with. He has no other source of ammunition on his body.

I still think it's cool looking overall, though.

Did unarmored warriors (Celt/Zulu-style) get any lovin'?

People art is not only descriptive, is evocative too. If you add too much stuff, you can be more realistic but the piece can lose focus, be too "loaded" of details (unless is the effect wanted, see Wayne Reynolds).

Can we please stop it?

Polybolos and Scorpio were both sniping siege weapons. Used against infantry.

In set piece seiges and battles maybe. Mostly aimed "into the brown" (into massed troops). The Polybolos wasn't widely known. The Scorpion isn't much more powerful than a heavy crossbow. Neither is toted around for battles on the fly. They are heavy, take time to set up. In short thery are designed for specialized use. Seiges. A moving army isn't going to use them.

I am really curious about the Armor Master Fighter...

Nukruh wrote:

The bow and the arrow in the image are bothering me. It just doesn't look right for some fundamental reason.

It's how they're held. Notice that the bowstring's outside the arm holding the weapon? Impossible to aim correctly unless the right (character's right) hand is repositioned.

No mention of it was made prior, so I was just making sure I was not seeing things due to lack of sleep.

Aiming with extraordinary precision with a siege engine would be the deed i would expect from an hero specialized in it. Is that wrong?

Maybe. It just interferes with my suspension of disbelief :)

A moving army isn't going to use them.

Unless you mount them on War Dinos or the like. Animated self moving siege gear is also an option. :)

At this point I feel I should mention that a few months ago I had the idea for a hill giant assassin who snipes out his targets with a hand-held ballista.

At this point I feel I should mention that a few months ago I had the idea for a hill giant assassin who snipes out his targets with a hand-held ballista.

And then he hides in a tree.

R_Chance wrote:

A moving army isn't going to use them.

Unless you mount them on War Dinos or the like. Animated self moving siege gear is also an option. :)

I suppose if you built them to move and animated them. Most ballistae and other siege engines are constructed on site from carried materials or local timber. Accuracy, such as it is, is based on stability and ranging in your shots (although ballista can be roughly aimed).

Mobile animated self firing siege engines are a bit high magic for my game. They have a place as artifacts though (I stold the concept from the old Empire of the Petal Throne game -- the Lightning Bringer). Generally I'd have something like that use something more powerful than rocks and javelins. Like lightning for instance :)

At this point I feel I should mention that a few months ago I had the idea for a hill giant assassin who snipes out his targets with a hand-held ballista.

I think I'd use a more civilized giant. Fire giant maybe. Nasty thought, but cool - essentially just a big crossbow :)

Ya know, some folks here make it real easy for me to know how agonizingly old you are (no offense). The ones that critique the half-elf image are definitely not of my generation. I grew up on heroes being dudes like Cloud Strife from Final Fantasy 7 and many anime out there, so to me, that looks like a normal pic of a warrior as opposed to the ZOMG reactions I see from others

Hey, have you looked at the artwork of the second edition AD&D Player Handbook? :p It's a bloody wonder we got from THAT to THIS. And I must say, I like the more "high fantasy" images of modernity much better in most cases, unrealistic armor be damned. :)

His boots appear to be solid metal. How does he walk properly? And what's the point of those little 'wing' things on the sides. Looks like little more than a way to rip other peoples' clothing in a crowd.

Look closer on the blow up -- his wearing shovel greaves over boots -- not solid piece metal boots.

As mentioned above, his head is TINY. This dude has genetic problems.

That's right you be a half breed between two different races and see what that does to your DNA -- at least he's not infertile like a liger.

Either his legs are too long or his arms are way too short. And what is with that giant chunk of metal on his right arm?

Pathfinder buckler -- they strap on instead of being held in the hand.

He's holding the bow with the bowstring OVER his arm, as was mentioned above. I'm convinced that this is due to his tiny head. He's not able to rationalize proper weapon use.

He's posing not shooting. He isn't worried about it looking right.

The bow itself is completely useless. Not only must it be incredibly heavy thanks to all that metal slapped onto it, but there is NO way it could even bend properly to launch the arrow.

Composite recurve with arrow guides? Not that odd -- the fact they are metal instead of bone is a bit odd but not horribly so. Actually it looks like the bow is made of bone and not wood, that wouldn't be so unusual depending on the area he is from. The metal looks to be reinforcing on the arms and curve possibly to prevent breakage... really there's only 5 pieces of metal added total (one holds the string) and each of those are caps of some form as opposed to solid sections (again not unusual -- the fact the caps aren't leather or some other wrap is a bit though).

Speaking of that arrow...what? Did he strap a freaking dagger to the end? "it's a bigger point, so it'll do more damage" doesn't make much sense when the damn thing won't fly. Beyond the enormous arrowhead, the shaft is entirely too short, and he's not even HOLDING it properly.

What? Like these? Perhaps you are more use to the three inch piercing arrow heads? Arrows have had many variations of heads on them throughout the centuries -- during the middle ages (and a bit beyond) they experimented pretty heavily on how to change the arrow head to get different results from the arrow -- much like modern ballistics does to the bullet.

Say what you want about it but the armor is horrible from the perspective of actually doing it's job. I learned to ignore 3E art with all those point / edge traps and other issues on the armor when it first came out. It's just suppsed to "look cool". Used to make me shiver and wonder if the guy wearing it had a death wish. Having said that, the artwork in older editions was no prize either for the most part. Over all, I think Paizo's art is a definite improvement over pretty much any other edition of the game. My 2cp.

Very exciting preview, with a lot of cool sounding archetypes. Too bad I didn't like the one previewed, it seems immensely meh.

So, which one of the cavalier archetypes will allow for a mount-less variant?

Say what you want about it but the armor is horrible from the perspective of actually doing it's job. I learned to ignore 3E art with all those point / edge traps and other issues on the armor when it first came out.

AHAHAHAHAHAH!

Couters are a normal part of late armor and are there for the same reason we corrugate and slope armor today -- extra protection. The angles offer a thicker piece of metal where the impact happens, and are stronger than a straight piece of metal. The extra 'fins' help deflect and catch incoming strikes. The same idea was used on breast plates by putting a crease going down the middle of the breastplate and sloping it downward towards the belly (which is why so many people in portraits from the time look like they have a significant amount of belly.

I have one question, will there be new rage powers in this book?

I have one question, will there be new rage powers in this book?

Yes, this has already been confirmed by Jason

Ah... how I miss the artwork of Boris & Julie...

northbrb wrote:

I have one question, will there be new rage powers in this book?

Yes, this has already been confirmed by Jason

thanls for the answer, it is hard sometimes to catch up on every question asked.

I have one question, will there be new rage powers in this book?

Of course, some of these classes get other new rules as well, such as rage powers, rogue talents, and the like. Some of these archetypes can make for some versatile and powerful characters. I myself am playing with one of these archetypes in a campaign being run by our illustrious publisher, Erik Mona. Take a look at the Maneuver Master.