Matt Stich's page

@ wraithstirke agreed.

Just for kicks i made the gunslinger with the weapon cord cheese, to see what he can kick.

** spoiler omitted **...

Pistols aren't light, so your values are off. It should be -4/-4 for twf, not -2/-2. Your final to-hit should be 2 less across the board. Point-blank shot is also to damage, so you're missing a +1 there as well.

JohnF wrote:

gnomersy wrote:

Try the gunslinger from 1-4, roughly speaking they suck ... badly. They'll be broke have limited attacks at even lower...

They're actually not too bad a level 2, especially if you have a musket. The ability to do 1D12 against touch AC at range against the BBEG can be significant in a tier 1-2 encounter, especially if you burn a grit point on the first shot to get to use touch AC at the second range increment. That might get you enough time to get off a second shot before the BBEG and his minions can close to melee range.

Once a Human Gunslinger Musket Master hits level 3 and Rapid Shot, he can get off TWO shots a round at +6 (assuming an 18 Dex and a MW Gun)... at level 4? They get precise shot allowing them to sacrifice to hit for damage. They can be deadly at level 3. +6 on touch AC is not bad at all.

I played a FRESH gunslinger and while I wasn't game changer I didn't miss much and when it came to the BBEG? A 12 pt hit was the final blow [b]after someone else had hit them.[b]

I think the important part here is the bolded part. You guys worked as a team. Good job. Your last shot, a powerful one, felled the BBEG. Just a good shot from an archer would have after the BSF hit him. I don't see the issue here. You yourself admit you weren't the game-changer.

Edit: besides, you'd still need lachemical cartridges, which are very expensive at level 3, even crafting them yourself, to get that extra attack.

A glove of storing requires a free action to use, but you are also not allowed free actions during other actions, so we run into the same problem as above.

Also the weapon cord states that fine actions, and i would rule that reloading a gun definately counts as that, can be interfered with.

Actually some free actions can be taken during other actions, like talking or nock an arrow

Yeah, if you read the threads the people who claim they are overpowered produce builds that are wholly one-sided thin glass cannons and pit them against, say, a barbarian built to sunder and who chooses rage powers that don't help damage.

Also, people underestimate misfires. A gunslinger can't get past misfires until level 13, which will see a mild number of games, and that's only if they take an archetype. A misfire breaks the gun, half damage, 20x2 multiplier. If you misfire again, it explodes. A build like most of the ones you see built around here with like 10 attacks at level 12 will misfire at least once, which destroys the damage you will deal. Also, most of those attacks will be at single-digit or negative modifiers with what you have to do to deal that much damage.

tl;dr, No, they're not broken. Try one out in a real game and you'll see.

Dolomyte wrote:

I agree wholeheartedly that the double-barrel pistol only means one single extra shot. not in effect manyshot on every shot. but Paizo nver gave a firm ruling on that

But that isn't RAW.

Anyway, he could just use one Double pistol then swing it to other hand for TWFing feat.

No, you actually need two weapons for twf

Maxximilius wrote:

- How the heck are you getting a BAB so high ? A level 12 pistolero double-wielding DB pistols has a BAB of +1/+1/+1/-4/-9 +1/-4/-9 with haste, PBS, deadly aim, double tapping and rapid shot on.
- Where did you find two +5 weapons at level 13 ? >_> Can I have a free balor with my fighter too for DPR calculation ?
- DB weapons shot twice per attack, as if using manyshot on each attack, you don't get two attack rolls per shot - that's the most reasonable interpretation of the rules since it doesn't allow for instantaneous misfire explosion nor nova critical hit.

I said 13, not 12. The starting wealth for a 13 is 140k, +5 pistols are 50k, so thats 100k. a +6 dex belt is 36k, which, assuming a starting dex of 17, 2 racial, and 3 advancements gets you 28. which is a +9.

BAB
13 base + 9 dex + 5 magic + 1 PBS + 1 WF = +29.

Off hand is light, so TWF penalty is -2, bringing you to 27

DB is -4, bringing you to 23 to hit.

As for it letting you take 2 attacks per shot. I've seen it interpreted many ways. I for one don't think you should be able to reload More then a single barrel for free.

Valid point on precise shot, you can drop improved crit for that. Someone link me the character builder you all use, and assuming its free I'll post the build.

Can't you only use, like 1/4 of your wbl on one item?

Matt Stich wrote:

I'd love to see it, because I'm fairly certain it doesn't exist.

AND FINALLY! I understand WHY you don´t know about the circumstance bonuses!

In the section Common Term, in the Core, they ommited the typology of bonuses! XD

See that: in Srdd20, is write in one page, the type of bonuses.

The cricunstance bonuses say:

Circumstance Modifier
A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source.

Is like a common-sense rule XD (but, is a rule, indeed)

There is the source: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#circumstanceModifier

A swear that I search in the Pathfinder´s Core Book, and I don´t fin any list of bonuses type or its stacks condition. May be, it was lost in the edition.

Come on! check it!

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OK, now that you check it, you can understand that in any cases that happend something NOT ORDINARY, you can freely apply a circunstance bonuses?

In the case that I propose, the alchemist is trying to acelerate his work, to have the opportunity to launch the bomb with the sling. Then, she commite some mistakes (like everyone that is hurry). Then, she recieve a Circumstance Penalty

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As you can understand now, the circumstance modifiers are the "jokers" in the d20 system.

If you read my question it was about the circumstance bonus to allow you to do that with a sling. You completely misconstrue that rule and if you can't see that, I believe we're done here.

But you don't kill my argument. You don't seem to understand how the rule works. Creating a bomb is not a swift action. The action is that you create then throw the bomb because if you don't, the bomb will become inert. Bombs don't have a 1 round lifetime, essentially they have a standard action lifetime. You don't create it as a swift, load it as a move, then sling it as a standard.

Also, where do you find that "-2 circumstance penalty" for hurrying when using a sling? I'd love to see it, because I'm fairly certain it doesn't exist.

The only way to get the bomb to last longer than a standard action is to use delayed bomb, but that's not part of the argument here. It's a non-sequiter.

It will tell you if it's precision damage, and normally precision damage is extra dice, like sneak attack. For the future :)

The only thing I need to say to shut down that post is that you can't take a "not FULL standard action," either you take a standard action or you don't, simple as that. An action is an action, you can't just take half of one

I usually take a look at all my player's sheets before the day of the game to make sure everything is right. During the game I don't stress about it, but I like to make sure it's all correct before the game.

I had a player once who I didn't check before the game and the numbers on roughly half the sheet were wrong. Some low, some waaaay to high, and the character suffered for it.

Besides, Maese, while traits are optional, racial traits are not. Warslinger is a racial trait and if you're using the alchemist, you're using the APG, which warslinger is a racial trait for halflings.

Yeah, I'm sure there was plenty I could've used but now I've got something (Matt and) I made that I can use hiwever I wish n my games.

I'd love to see how it turns out when you use it. Shoot me a pm whenever

Yes but only as one handed weapons. You don't get to use them as double weapons

BUT, if you load the flask, AND THEN infuse the bomb?

Load a bullet in a sling is only cover one face of the flask with letter, and you can hold the strings in the fingers, without problem.

Doesn't work that way. Has to be viable ammo to be loaded, and then slung. You can't load half the bomb then the next half next round or whenever.

Exactly Magicdealer. It's too much to allow without having ot spend some kind of resource on it. Make it like "Sling bomber: You can load a bomb into a sling" or w/e.

Well, I'm not familiar with 1e or AD&D, never saw it during my brief stint with 3.5 because I was too busy exploring splats to look in the monster manuals, and I don't buy many 3PP.

Besides making new stuff is a fun exercise, even if it never sees the light of day.

More seriously, I'd second Lilith's suggestions. And the combat pad suggestion.

But you know what would be really cool? An application that used the phone's camera to overlay area of effect diagrams over a grid. Select the square you're in (or squares!), and then select the area type, and bam. It'll show you instantly who is affected.

If I remember, Giuseppe's was free. I downloaded it a while ago, and those 4WFG apps aren't on the app store, so that just expands the options to more people. Yay options.

The problem with the arrow example you pose, Maese, is that it's a standard action to infuse, load, and fire, so you can't give it to the rogue. It doesn't work that way.

I'm fairly certain you can't load the bomb into a sling anyway, but that could be me. I don't know of any rule that would disallow it but then again, it doesn't say you can either. This combo would make a halfling bomber extremely dangerous to every scenario.

A summon monster app with template adjustments

One of those kind of already exists and it's still on the app store. It only takes into account Augment summons, iirc. I haven't used it in a while, so it may have been updated. I believe it's by Giuseppe Loranza (Don't take my spelling as right lol), I got it and it's awesome. I'm going to recommend it to a friend of mine playing a summoner in a different game

How about the myconoids have their own language that the annelidians speak, while the annelidians have a language the myconoids don't?

So:
Annelidians speak annelidian and myconoid
Myconoids speak myconoid and undercommon.
If you want to do the single shared language route, I would say terran.

Yeah. It's already there, so I'd just have them speak their base language and Terran, good idea.

I love it. There is nothing I can think of to change, excellent job, Matt.

How about languages? As the closest things annelidians have to diplomats, they should probably speak two languages to start, especially with that intelligence penalty. How about Terran or Annelidian (because Terran is a good language for them to communicate with annelidians and gnome, and annelidian would be very difficult for a non-annelidian to use, or we could just say whatever and let them speak it) and undercommon? They would certainly deal with underground species more than above ground. I like the idea of neither of them speaking common to start.

No wait, better idea. Myconoids can understand Annelidian but can't speak it, and their base language is w/e + undercommon?

It does, it increases the range of the bomb and gives you the damage of whatever the projectile is. It's not a bad discovery for, say, sniping at lower levels, but loses its gusto later on because it can't be used with fast bombs.

Edit: Kirth, I didn't know there were shroom people in 3.5 (or further back), I never really poured over the bestiaries and all.

This is a rough rough draft

Not yet. I've gotten dumped on at school, Sorry for the delay. I have a little free time later tonight, I'll try and get one up.

non-sequiter, but this relates to the topic Whenever I play a paladin, my LoH is one of two things: a celebratory butt-pat, or a defib shock, complete with the character yelling "Clear!" when a party member goes down.

I adore this idea and really want to help you out, so here goes:

The first, and biggest problem you're going to face is that Eidolons function spectacularly as one of two things: physical monsters and skill monkeys. Your problem here is that Djinn, as per their monster entry, don't like physical combat at all. They prefer tactics of magic and/or trickery.

So you can take this and go a couple ways with it:

Combat Monster: This is going against the core fluff of the Djinn as a race, but it's really where the eidolon shines brightest. Focus on the eidolon's ability to use a falchion and maybe pick up one or two of the magic evolutions just to round it out. I recommend against this option because it doesn't really feel like you're actually trying to raise up a young djinn with any regard to its own society and customs.

Spellcasting Trickster: This sticks more closely with the Djinn by the books. Spend most of your points on the evolutions that grant spell-like abilites. Minor Magic gives you the chance to get both Vanish and Silent Image, which are perfect. Dimension Door and Incorporeal later on both make good choices, too. You'll run into a lot of issues with this concept because you simply won't have enough spells to make it really worth the effort. Perhaps invest your eidolon in Use Magic Device and shore up his offense with magic items?

Skill Monkey: This is the fun one, and keeps your core concept fully in tact. You'll want to take the Master Summoner archetype. This means you can keep your Djinn eidolon true to his nature and have him kip off (unsummoned), vanish, or simply skirt the edges of combat while the "lesser beings" handle things for him. You'll be able to have a Summon Monster out with your eidolon so you'll never lack for combat potential. It also means that you can pick up some great knowledges, use magic device, and anything flavorful/marginally useful (spells) on your eidolon without worrying that you'll suffer overall. Your little Djinn is going to be...

Instead of a falchion, I'm going to keep with the theme and give him a scimitar, maybe a large one, not sure yet. I love the idea of a skill monkey, but for my first summoner I'd like to keep it vanilla summoner. I think I'll try out the spellcasting trickster, and get him flight as soon as I can.

Obviously half-elf is the best race mechanically, but I'm not sure thematically. For desert races, dwarf seems like it will work, but I don't like the cha penalty for a cha caster.

Matt Stich wrote:

So I'm finally getting around to making a summoner. His concept is that he believes he's djinn-touched. He thinks the djinn have given him a young djinn to raise to power and bring himself to power so that eventually the djinn will look favorably upon him and raise him up as a djinn himself. Any suggestions for spells, evolutions, etc? Starting level is 3

Curiosity question.

Are the Dijin and the summoner romantically involved or are you planning this? Because I never thought about eidolon being more inteligent than lets say: a pokemon, and now you sprung with this interesting concept of having an highly inteligent eidolon.

No, the djinn came to him in a dream and told him the ritual of summoning a specific young djinn to his side and told him he was tasked to raise him. Keep in mind, the base Int for a biped eidolon is 7, which isn't smart, but it's equivalent to a young person. at 5, 10, 15 I'm going to add +1 to it's int score for thematic reasons. I'm playing like they're the same age but teaching each other. The summoner in question will be young and rash. But I'm looking for suggestions for evolutions that would fit the theme.

So I'm finally getting around to making a summoner. His concept is that he believes he's djinn-touched. He thinks the djinn have given him a young djinn to raise to power and bring himself to power so that eventually the djinn will look favorably upon him and raise him up as a djinn himself. Any suggestions for spells, evolutions, etc? Starting level is 3

I was actually thinking they'd be the ones dealing with other races, so they'd have +2 Con, +2 Cha, -2 Int. Generally friendly, but not all that bright to learning outside their villages.

Definitely poison immunity, I'm thinking of this:

Spores (Ex): As a standard action 3/day, a fungimen may release potent spores to daze opponents. All creatures within 10 feet of the fungimen must make a fortitude save or be dazed for 1 round. The save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the fungimen's HD + the fungimen's Charisma modifier.

Also, they'd use sporebearing weapons, which allow them to use their spores through a weapon attack?

Would the fungus folk be a PC level race? And I like the idea, because it could go both ways with fungus folk and annelidians working together of mutual benefit or as competitors for food. Although their food is in such great supply (dead plants) that competition could be irrelevant. So maybe just allies.

I could throw together a PC race in a bit. It would certainly be interesting. I'm thinking a small race as a place to start?

I'd believe them to be allies, the annelidians not only increase the size and habitability of the caves but also dig out dead plants from the ceiling. I'd believe the fungi-men to be the "face" of this underground civilization, benevolent and slow to rouse but ferocious when angered, valuable allies with earth-based sorcery, hefty warriors, and fine, if not unusual, cratfsmanship of weapons and armor.

Not gonna touch that one...

Anyway, I like the idea of a fungi race. Maybe they cohabitate with the annelidians? Mutual economies, the annelidians are payed for soil work while the fungi-men reap the benefits by sharing the stocks of food and selling whatever's extra?

Oh and they band together for defense against the delver and purple worm incursions of course. And maybe the annelidians are in charge of defending the nurseries while the fungi-men are general town guards?

"Well at least you won't have to throw me this time..."

Edit: I read Harsk's voice as Sean Connery. Is that bad?

Is there not a bo staff now that does all the cool stuff you want to do with a quarterstaff?

Not really. The Bo only has double, blocking, and monk, which is sad to see.

SlimGauge, I disagree. I play fighters all the time and they're usually team players, sometimes team leader, but never impatient. They know the value of a team or else they'd be dead already.

@Gruingar, I'm beginning to see a pattern here...

Well you do get a bonus to your AC vs ranged attacks while prone. Why would reloading take twice as long? Light's are operated by a lever, heavies by a crank, so it shouldn't take any longer.

Edit: Also, I'm talking about crawling away from the guy trying to beat you to death while you shoot into melee from outside said melee

Well look at that. I never have characters that use them, so I don't bother reading it. Other than those, there are no other ranged weapons that I know of that are treated as ammunition.

You can enchant ammunation directly. 50 pieces for the price of 1 weapon. So yes, over time that get's expensive.

I don't think there's an item that does it by RAW, but maybe you can convince your GM to let you build/buy a Glove of Forceful Throwing, akin to the Amulet of Mighty Fists?

Shuriken are not ammo. They have to be enchanted one by one. Also, I second a glove like that, or something like it.

Edit: Actually, nothing thrown counts as ammo. Sling bullets are ammo but a sling is a ranged weapon in the vein of a bow.

Just had an idea: I'd be fine if prone shooter added a bonus to shooting prone IF they also added an extra bonus, like you can crawl w/o provoking while prone

Prone shooter irks the crap out of me, and if they errata it to give an attack bonus when you're prone it'll irk me even more. Shooting is easier when you have something to rest the gun/your elbows on, period. It doesn't require a feat

I've made a lot of changes to the class. I'm going to work on a spell list, I need ideas for a 15th/19th level ability and for the capstone. Any ideas?

Homemade poison rules, Alchemical items, something to reduce price burdens on monk unarmed strikes, more weapon properties

There's a player in my game whom we routinely call the Worst Ninja Ever. He's 6th level now, has no ranks in disable device, got enlisted into a foreign army trying to get to the Field Marshal, and took charge shuriken and shadow clone for his first two ninja tricks. Now those aren't too terribly bad. However his third choice was going to be forgotten trick. Guess how many ki points he had? 3. Per day. So his plan was going to be to use forgotten trick to get vanishing trick. Once. Per day. The rest of the players usually want to throw things at him. A lot.

Wow Max, that's pretty nice. I'll definitely buy that supplement once I get paid!

Another thing, what about the kyoketsu-shoge in UC for a weapon? It's still technically thrown (The blade can be used as an off-hand melee weapon or thrown like a dagger, while the rope and circlet can be whipped around and swung at opponents as a bludgeoning reach weapon.) but can be used as a backup in close quarters once they close in.

Check the Peltast in this supplement, it is currently the only way to do a viable character throwing traditional weapons.

I'd love to, sadly I don't have any money right now until my next check comes in and the peltast isn't on the SRD.

@Adamantine Dragon

There is a ton more out there for throwers, I'm hoping this thread will be good to discuss said ideas and get a good idea of how to make throwers.

@Streamofthesky

I don't see why 3e material couldn't be discussed as well. It's compatible, merely up to GM approval. I don't think far shot was nerfed, though. I think Far Shot was just implemented with different designs in mind

Alchemist.

Very effective throwers when it comes to bombs but what about more traditional knives/axes? Are they a good choice still? Why?

Is there a "best way?"

Thrown weapon builds suffer very high feat taxes to be even remotely effective. It was a bit easier in 3.5, the changes to "far shot" make it even tougher to build one in PF.

...

It's a tough road to travel.

Exactly, but I think it an interesting option that shouldn't be ignored. So this is why I started the thread.

The starknife is good but what about the handaxe? Higher damage die means you're doing a little more consistently but your peak damage is lower.

Far Shot is still useful and you only take half the range penalties fora thrown weapon, and that is especially useful in wide spaces. Is Distance Thrower (UC 97) worth the feat?

What about stacking as many attacks as possible? Even as a fighter, TWF/RS is going to hurt for a few levels. Is ranger a good way to go?

So what's the best way to make a thrown weapon character?

I have a set of brushed steel dice I keep in a leather bag. Everything else is split between backup dice in my crown royal bag and a crochet bag of holding for my go to dice. I usually use my runic set when it comes to DMing because it rolls so well