I came a little late for the red box, so my gold standard of intro sets is the "New Easy to Master D&D Game," aka the black box of 1991. The big thing that it offered were the Dragon Cards, which taught the rules step-by-step. Moreover, the setup had a solo adventure to teach as you play...you'd learn a new rule, then play an encounter in the adventure corresponding to that rule.
Now, I don't think Dragon Cards are necessarily the way to go, but examples of play and a solo adventure would be a good way of teaching things in small chunks instead of all at once.
The biggest thing that I liked about the black box rules was that they emphasized fun and improvisation over following the rules to the letter. The tutorial had an entire card devoted to the rule of, "If you can't think of the rule, make something up." I think emphasizing the imagination and flexibility of the game is very important for newbies, since a lot of people have the instinct of stopping play and looking up the exact rule instead of just making something up and having fun.
Regardless of how many classes/races/levels are in the box, I think the key to making a basic set work is to emphasize the flexibility and fun that an RPG offers - show what makes it unique and train gamers from the get-go to make it their game where the rules aid their fun rather than constrain it.
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especially if you add a subtle hint like "Well... in the big product there are ELEVEN of these, yes, eleven, you heard right!" Newbies will be intrigued and curious at once
No. Not this. Not in any way.
Please don't use the text of the Intro rules as blatant advertising. I know the idea of this is basically to get new folks into the game, but please don't make it a whorish, 'Thanks for spending 20-30 bucks on this, now immediately run out and spend $50 more'...
Just slip an advert into the box. Maybe a small catalog, specifically for the Core/APG/GMG and some of the AP/modules.
As for rules content, I'm inclined to agree with:
-Races: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling
-Classes: Fighter, Wizard, Cleric Rogue, levels 1-5 only
-Full combat rules
-Full skill rules
-Limited feat options
-Limited equipment (basic adventuring kit, smaller weapon list)
-Limited spell choices
-Simple magic weapons only
You want all the concepts included, but don't need every single option.
A good intro adventure. You have amazing writers working/freelancing for, so I have no fears in this area.
And a GM's booklet that includes, not only some of the basic tips from the GMG, but also a small Bestiary including some beasties that aren't used in the premade adventure. So that GMs can make their own adventures up if they wish.
What I would really like to see. Really really like to see, is a completely stand-alone product. Something along the lines of the E6 system that advances you to level 5 or 6 normally, then uses some other simple method of character improvement after that. Then the Intro set can serve as a gateway product or as it's own thing and yet be compatible with the low level modules that you already make.
Edit due to hopeless' post following:
As big a fan as I am of the iconics, and as sad as I am to see them go from the APs, I don't think their stats should be used for this. I'd rather see some blank character sheets provided in the box. Maybe 4-6 of them.
I don't agree with the box set since it ups the price tag and we not only want pathfinder promoted but competitive with 4e and that means cheaper, mini's are nice but Pathfinder's initial selling point is that it something you could pick up where magazines are sold.
The map could be inset in the centre of the magazine alongside a thin sheet of tokens that could be photocopied and cut out getting to serve as replacement figures for the game.
The magazine should start with an introductory adventure using the four core classes (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue and Wizard) perhaps using the iconics done under Pathfinder rules.
The reader gets to run a short intro and gets to choose which of the four they're running.
This is followed by a short section on equipment and the abilities these characters possess followed by a section on how to run a game.
This should include copies of their character sheets that can be photocopied or downloaded via a free link.
This should become a gamemaster section with a brief monster section as well as an adventure that could be run for four players as well as a limited treasure section and perhaps a few cartoon captions highlighting the adventure using the iconics to give the reader a reason to want to run this game.
Perhaps a section holding a link where they can peruse a section in this messageboard where they can discuss their thoughts perhaps even suggestions on where to go next maybe even what part of Golarion they'd like to see.
This is not a suggestion for a one off but an introduction to the Pathfinder game I'd also recommend throwing in a regular feature using however old fashioned or order of the stick style cartoon to promote this.
Say for example you use Falcons Hollow you have a brief forest adventure where they return to the settlement to see the Logger Consortium in action ousting some locals who can't pay their extortionate rates maybe even reveal this is why they adventure looking for the money they can't get by simply working.
A little too dark maybe, perhaps make it a little light hearted just don't let Nicholas Logue near it!
No unlikely, most seem to want a box set I'd rather have something I could afford and would make me want to buy the full book but also series of these even if we're talking a Pathfinder magazine thats half the size of the original and priced accordingly.
Maybe I should take another look at Wayfinder?
Depends on what's in the box!So the "box is too expensive" issue has been resolved?A box?!?
[Detective David Mills]
But what's in the box? WHAT'S IN THE BOX?
[/Detective David Mills]
Oh God, I want it!
As for the tokens, I'd suggest something along the lines of those found in the Arkham Horror (for investigators) and WHFRP 3e (for classes and monsters): punch-out cardboard figures - drawn in the style of N'wah or Crystal Frazier would be THE AWESOME - to fit into clear plastic slotted bases, for PCs and a bunch of creatures. THANK YOU!
This. And N'wah would love you longer time.
That is in my top 10 best suggestions that I've heard so far for the intro set.
Memory Stick loaded with the PDFs of everything included in the box
Or include a card that has a code that will allow the purchaser to come to Paizo, create an account, redeem the code for the PDF, and then get introduced to another content that Paizo has to offer...
Or include a card that has a code that will allow the purchaser to come to Paizo, create an account, redeem the code for the PDF, and then get introduced to another content that Paizo has to offer...That is in my top 10 best suggestions that I've heard so far for the intro set.
Memory Stick loaded with the PDFs of everything included in the box
Very cool idea. Perhaps a code for a free Player Primer to the Inner Sea PDF, free Corebook PDF, coupons for discounts on hardcopies of both. Just thinking not only do we want to get beginning folks into PRPG, but also interested in the world of Golarion.
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I made a comment in the other thread, but I'd like to re-itterate one part of it. In my opinion the set must include cards for the spells/"powers" that can be selected. This is something that made Heroquest easy for me as a 10yr old, and still proves hard for my group at 30yrs....
Heroquest is the best example I can think of as something to base this off.
Oh, and yes, I can safely say even now, I will most likely be buying this ;)
I think the most important thing is that the intro set rules should be a clean subset of the core rules. Thus a character created using the intro rules should be 100% playable using the core rules. No conversion should be required beyond adding any features/stats unavailable in the intro rules.
I know it's primarily to get new players to play, but it's also there to sell. I've bought most of the D&D 3.0/3.5 boxes because they had minis.
So my big recomendation would be to have many "feelies" that would be of use beyond the starter rules. Dice/Pre-painted Plastic Minis (yeah, right!)/Flip-Mats/Other Stuff.
I also REALLY liked the suggestion of PDF of the contents included.
I think that pathfinder still strongly encourages the use of minis and battlemats for resolving combats, as the rules are still very tactical (not as much as 4e, but way more so than a system like FATE or the Storytelling system). Thus, I think having good tokens for monsters and PCs (like the red boxed set had) would be a very good idea. I also think that a dry erase battlemap would be very useful.
What I would really like to see. Really really like to see, is a completely stand-alone product. Something along the lines of the E6 system that advances you to level 5 or 6 normally, then uses some other simple method of character improvement after that. Then the Intro set can serve as a gateway product or as it's own thing and yet be compatible with the low level modules that you already make.
This. Make an official E6 version of Pathfinder; with a subset of the PF classes (and spells, feats etc), capped at level 6, advancement through feats after that.
Appeals to new players as well as to the old school / sandbox crowd.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Given that cost is a factor, I'm not sure there's room for 3 levels of spells for wizards and clerics. But might work with highly abbreviated lists.
I'd like 3-5 levels of play, the 4 basic classes, the 4 classic races, and not shoehorning races in to a single class. Probably some sort of simplified ability array (so you don't have to roll up a character if you don't want to). Maybe leave out advanced concepts like bonus stacking. Definitely leave out the CMB/CMD section, touch ACs, and maybe even most of the concept of being flat-footed. Try and get each chapter down to about 6 pages, with a goal of having the whole thing fit in 64 pages. Cut down the equipment so that there aren't many similar options - no need for bastard swords, monk weapons, breastplates, etc.
Do include an adventure. Hopefully include ways to make more. Maybe include a map pack. Do include tokens and dice. Doubt minis are going to make it into the price point.
I think going for $30 might be a mistake. $50 seems more realistic.
One key element - every aspect of advancing a character should be built in, so you don't need to pick that 3rd level feat if you have no idea. But allow customizing too.
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Just limit it to levels 1 to 4. It eliminates the need for a whole extra level of spells, and it makes for nice capstone-ish feat options for fighters like Spring Attack and Great Cleave. In fact, you could just let Fighter players choose either the Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack chain or the Power Attack-Cleave-Great Cleave chain as pre-set builds and not even have Fighter class bonus feats even mentioned.
Plus, if you did have classes besides Ftr/Rog/Wiz/Clr, your Paladins and Rangers would get their 1st level spells and Bards would be getting their 2nd level ones.
My ideas:
Choose a low level range, 1-4 sounds good.
Include only the four iconic classes (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue and Wizard)
Eliminate exotic weapons
Eliminate any feat not usable before 5th level
Eliminate all magic items with a cost greater than ______ gp
Eliminate some fancy combat maneuvers - again those mainly used at 5th level and above.
Eliminate interior every page color. Save color for chapter starts and some large art.
The above should cut the rule book by half and still allow for a lot of variety.
Include:
- FlipMat (special two sided with dungeon and town?)
- 2nd FlipMat (maybe. This one could be blank on one side. Cost of 2nd mat may increase price too much)
- Dice
- Character sheets
- 20 monster beastary
- 2 special print adventures and info on link to four more free downloadable adventures
- PFS chronicle sheet for special adventures (get them involved)
- 4 minis ... one for each iconic class. Must be painted, plastic prefered
- token counters for monsters in beastary
- CD with PDF of the above and some mood songs (or link for free download of these with proof of purchase)
-Swiftbrook
Just My Thoughts
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Oh, a couple more Feat chain/Fighter class builds came to mind:
Weapon Focus/Dazzling Display/Weapon Specialization and Two-Weapon Fighting/Double Slice/Two-Weapon Defense. That's 4 solid, different options for Fighters. Mobile, Power, Skill, and TWF.
Edit: Wait. Point-Blank Shot/Precise Shot/Rapid Shot as an Archer build. What about dropping feats for characters all together and just letting PCs choose a feat package, but non-Fighters only get the first two benefits of the packages, while Fighters do get that last benefit as well as a second extra (combat-only) feat package? You might put in Improved Initiative/Toughness as a feat package for non Fighters, or Skill Focus/Improved (Fort/Ref/Will) as another alternative. Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus, Nimble Moves/Acrobatic Moves... though I suppose that one requires adding in the rules for difficult terrain, and that may be more trouble than it would be worth.
Since no one expected an Intro Set, it really should include an Inquisitor.Real Pathfinder rules
Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric
Covers levels 1-6
It had to be said.
Here's my two-cents...
** spoiler omitted **...
$.02? That was more like a buck fifty . . . and well said.
Have you ever thought of writing? Because, you know, you have Superstar potential.
: )
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Regardless of the content (there have been a lot of good ideas already posted here), the key to this set is the marketing. It needs to be marketed and sold "mainstream," a la Wal Mart, Target, etc, right next to Monopoly and other games (so it should come in a box). Not going to find a new audience in your FLGS.
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Character Sheets
Good character sheets will help immensely. I cannot overstate their importance and power in helping new players learn to play. However, the character sheets need to be organized in an attractive and intuitive fashion. I suggest the following:
Defense - Have a labeled area with AC, Saves, and room for armor.
Offense - Another labeled area with weapons and assorted attacks.
Spells - Make sure there's room for spells known as well as spells memorized.
Skills - Much like it is now, only perhaps organized by controlling stat (i.e. put all the INT skills together).
Inventory - There's gotta be an inventory.
The current organization isn't bad for what it is, but it is not beginner-friendly. Saves, AC and attacks are referenced the most, and they are scattered all throughout the page. Skills are organized, but it can be hard to find the right one.
If the beginner character sheet must be split into two pages, I recommend that spells be given its own page, so that the martial classes only require a single page. Spell casters really do require more paperwork.
Pre-Generated Character Sheets
It goes almost without saying that these will be included. Please, please, please format them in exactly the same way as the blank sheets. It will make explanations much easier.
I think the most important thing is that the intro set rules should be a clean subset of the core rules. Thus a character created using the intro rules should be 100% playable using the core rules. No conversion should be required beyond adding any features/stats unavailable in the intro rules.I doubt that Pathfinder has the chance to be even remotely successful with new players. If its just a "teaser" like the Red Box of WotC is one to 4e the whole project is a waste of energy. I dont want to be a party pooper, but lets see the facts:
-Pathfinder core rulebook has 500+ pages. (then comes another 1000p+ in the advanced players book and several other rule books) I cannot imagine that anyone wants to read or learn such a complex and ruleheavy system. (not even I want to read anything so heavy like 3x or Pathfinder and I am game veteran for more than 20 years who plays many different games) Those who are attracted to learn complex game systems are already your customers.
If the intention is to find new players and not just let existing pathfinder fans buying another book then the amount of rules have to be cut down to lets say 20% of the existing page count. Put a 100p rulebook, some counters/dice and maps in a box and probably you will find people outside your usual fanbase who want to read/play this. (not for sure of course) Have 200p+ and the promise that for full experience everyone has to buy the core book and the other books and you will not sell anything outside the existing pathfinder community.
I simply don't think this is true.
I started roleplaying sometime back around 1990, with the DnD starter set of the time. Since then i have moved progressively towards simpler and simpler systems. I hate complex systems, i hate the restrictive nature of classes, and I am far from keen on tactical combat. DnD 3.5 all but passed me by, as i played game after game of WoD both old and new, Call of Cthulhu and WFRP. I would play anything in preference to DnD.
Yet, a few years ago, I picked up a copy of dragon, as i occationally did out of interest(i have gotten into the setting of eberron, though it had never enticed me much into playing DnD). There i found out that the guys who wrote it, where loosing the licence to do so, and that they would instead going to be writing this thing called Pathfinder. The art and the little spoilers all told me this thing was going to be cool, and i thought, what the heck, buy it, its not like you'll play it, but it might be worth a try.
Since then, I have learned the rules of 3.5 and PRPG, done a little free lancing and generally learned to love certain aspects of the OGL.
I'm still not keen on dense, complex rules or the over relinace on both combat and 'adventuring', but the quality of Pathfinders writing, the depth of the stories, and the awesomeness of golarion have taken me from being a person who barely touched 3.5, and basically loathed any system that complex, and made me into a convert.
This box set, if it can be got into the hands of young people with the right personality, will almost certainly bring new people into the hobby, so long as the rules are some what simplified, and the story and bits are awesome enough.
* snip *
Not going to find a new audience in your FLGS.
I beg to differ. My FLGS is basically a MTG shop with a few 4E D&D books. It's a small ma & pop operation. They haven't invested in even one Pathfinder book (I've made the suggestion), but moderate priced box set might interest them. It needs to have a low risk to the retailer as well.
* snip *
Pre-Generated Character Sheets
It goes almost without saying that these will be included. Please, please, please format them in exactly the same way as the blank sheets. It will make explanations much easier.
+1
-Swiftbrook
Just my thoughts
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* snip *
Pre-Generated Character Sheets
It goes almost without saying that these will be included. Please, please, please format them in exactly the same way as the blank sheets. It will make explanations much easier.+1
-Swiftbrook
Just my thoughts
-1
I'd rather see good 'build suggestions'. Something like, "If you want to play this type of character, these are the important stats and these are the feats, skills and spells that could be most useful". Half a dozen or more of those could be fit into the space it takes to stat out a pre-gen.
Whatever is presented should be 100% compatible with the core rules. After all, you want to introduce people to the Pathfinder RPG, not support a whole new game line.
At the same time, you want it to be self-contained, that is, be enough that the user doesn't feel like he's just bought an advertisement from you. This means it needs to be up to extended play - six levels is what I'd suggest.
My suggestion is the four classic races. That Pathfinder gnomes are very much Pathfinder-specific flavored is exactly why they shouldn't be used. Half-orcs or -elves instead of halflings might make sense; it will also eliminate the need to support multiple sizes in the PC equipment list.
Class-wise, the sorcerer is less difficult for new players to "get" than the wizard. This also allows you to excise item creation even on the scroll level. I suggest draconic and fey bloodlines as the choices; arcane would require metamagic support and familiar stats. Cleric (pick the available domains so none or all get their second power by 6th level), fighter, rogue, and sorcerer.
Don't include anything on combat maneuvers. Reduced list of feats, reduced list of spells.
Without having read through every post, I would hope to see not just an intro adventure included in the box, but a few other 'Basic' adventures published also, which would help pull those new players in and give them something to play before making the jump to 'full' Pathfinder.
Preferably written by Neil Spicer, TarrenDei, Wicht, Dabbler, Wellard, French Wolf and Rob McCreary.
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Do your eyes hurt yet? Mine do.
An observation: I've gotten several people into SJGames' GURPS with the Ninja Burger card game. It uses the most basic GURPS mechanic (which is rolling 3d6 under a target number), but there's no GURPS branding on the box and very little of the larger game. I think that's a mistake on the part of SJGames, but the game itself is good, fun, and easy to explain -- the rules take up less than a page. That sense of fun makes the segue into GURPS a snap.
The core mechanic of PFRPG is rolling a D20 and adding some stuff to beat a target number. It's even easier than the GURPS core mechanic.
So, instead of doing a rules-lite box (AKA weaksauce box), do a stand-alone game on the themes of PFRPG, using the core PFRPG mechanic. Put the branding/PI all over there. "Pathfinder: McGuffin Quest" "Golarion" "Sand Point", etc. Stick in a catalogue and an organised play flier.
To make the game useful to those who continue on to the larger RPG (and to attract the interest of those who already do), make the components reusable, not the rules. Flipmats, chase cards, cloisonné status markers, metallic copper/silver/gold pieces. Y'know: shiny, shiny schwag.
Without having read through every post, I would hope to see not just an intro adventure included in the box, but a few other 'Basic' adventures published also, which would help pull those new players in and give them something to play before making the jump to 'full' Pathfinder.
Preferably written by Neil Spicer, TarrenDei, Wicht, Dabbler, Wellard, French Wolf and Rob McCreary.
and therealthom, of course. That was a big omission on my part.
Well, thats an interesting opinion. I think there are few systems out there which are as complex as Pathfinder. (for my playing style such a complexity is needless and I would rather shoot my foot off before playing it, but I agree that there are different styles out there) So if you really prefer rule light systems as you stated then using Pathfinder it is clearly not a logical step. So I guess you changed your style from light to heavy over the years but didnt admit it to yourself. :)
Firstly, no.
My preferrence for play style have not changed. When i am no running Pathfinder games, my preference increasingly pushes further towards the narrativist indie end of the gaming spectrum, with games like dogs in the vineyard entrancing me and holding a very special place in my heart. The Point is that the quality of paizo's storytelling has pursuaded me to play in a way that is counter to my intincts and even enjoy it. If paizo where to scrap 3.5 and move to a mechanic like storyteller system, with reduced complexity of system, i would be the loudest cheer leader they would find for such a move. Trust me, i am well aware of my own thoughts on these matters and am not hiding anything from myself.
Which brings us to the next. My post was directed to the possiblity that Paizo tries to win new players with the intro set. With "new" I mean players which dont have experience with rpgs yet. If this assumption is true then, it seems to me that the Paizo designers are too routine-blinded to be able to realize that 90% of new potential players are not really keen about reading a 200p "dumbed" down PF intro set and then learning that its just a teaser and another 1000p of rule material is waiting for them if they want to enjoy the full PF game. I am fully convicted that, if the aimed market are new players, then the intro set will fail as the Red Box WotC released some days before. (which has the same problem)
The version of DnD which I started with was vastly more complex than any game i had played before(in many ways more complex than Pathfinder, i mean , hello, THAC0). I had never, ever roleplayed before, and I couldn't even read the rules or do the maths, thanks to crippling dyslexia. Yet the game captured me.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that exactly the same could not happen with a pathfinder based game, especially as a five or six level version of the rules, heavily stream lined would actually no be a complex game. The maths is simple enough that I can do most of it without a calculator, within a relatively short span of time, and I have real trouble with mental arthimatic, the systems.
What you missing is that is was exactly such a 'dumned down set; that has set me on a career of roleplaying that has lasted twenty or so years now. And I suspect that exactly such boxes are responcible for may of the gamers of my generation, and earlier. To labour the point even further, The original Red box, did almost exactly what your talking about here, providing the basics, then encouraging people to buy more advance box sets to open up the play experience, and that was massively successful.
But if the PF intro set is aimed at experienced players then I think it will probably have a chance with those veterans who want to introduce the game to their children, spouses, friends etc but didnt dare till this moment because of the extreme complexity.
It is also this. The two are not mutually exclusive.
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If paizo where to scrap 3.5 and move to a mechanic like storyteller system, with reduced complexity of system...
[NITPICK]
I did not find the storyteller system to be very simple at all. I mean, I understand what you're saying but I heartily disagree with your example. Other than that, I solidly agree with everything else you're saying.[/NITPICK]
One of the best box introductory rules with adventure in a box I have seen was ICE's Lord of the Rings Adventure Game which was that company's Middle Earth Role Playing Game done light. I have no idea how successful it was to the greater game population but I was greatly impressed. It was designed for a younger age group to get them into the game and eventually work into the more complicated MERP. It had an adventure book that was designed to help a new Game Master run the game and a rules book that was a simplified version of the MERP rules, as well as pregenerated characters and a small section on creating your own characters. In this box set there were player handouts and heavy card stock paper miniatures. The introductory adventures were very scripted, as they would have to be for the younger gamer to help them learn how to play. It wasn't dumbed down however. I was impressed with the flexibility of these rules that I ended up using them to run the entire MERP Palantiri Quest (forget it's exact name) with little modification. I don't know if this is helpful at all or if any of you older gamers remember this set. But I thought I'd toss in my two bits just in case it is helpful.
An Intro box is always a good idea, I think. These games are a lot to take in all at once (and I know, my first RPG was Rifts). Here's what I think should go into it.
--Basic Rulebook set up in the same order as the PCR (Pathfinder Core Rulebook for anyone just breaking into these forums). This would include:
- Races (all of them, they don't take up much room)
- Classes (3 or 4 should suffice, I'd suggest Fighter, Rogue, Sorcerer, and maybe Paladin, all detailed up to level 5)
- Simple skill set (Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perception, Ride, Stealth, Survival, Swim)
- Simple Feat Set (combat feat heavy, as that's what a big initial draw to the game is, probably don't need more than 10 or 12 feats)
- Equipment (basic equipment, a Standard Adventurer's Kit (and what's in it), a few commonly used weapons, light and medium armors, and maybe some specialist gear)
- A section detailing some of the more basic combat rules.
- A simple spell list up to 3rd level sorcerer/wizard spells, containing mainly combat spells (damage or control)
-- A standard set of dice
-- A beginners adventure unique to the box, containing the adventure, the bestiary of monsters in the adventure, and GM instructions for new GMs (adventure containing goblins, undead, and undead goblins! Controlled by the end boss, a hobgoblin necromancer w/imp familiar!)
-- A player's information booklet about the area the adventure takes place in (like a town on a large trading road in the middle of a forest having trouble with goblins and undead, including a simple map of the town, showing where the inn, tavern, mayor's house, jail, and market are).
-- 4 pre-made characters (I'd make a Dwarf Fighter, Human Paladin, Elf Rogue, and Gnome Sorcerer, all complete with name, gender, vital statistics, and equipment all laid out (Fighter with a greataxe or Dwarven Waraxe, Paladin with sword and board, rogue with two daggers, and sorcerer with staff and magic, with feats to match).
-- 2 character sheets with instructions on how to xerox (as well as perhaps a free PDF of the character sheet on the website)
-- simple campaign paper map
-- Simple character tokens (cardboard circles, pogs, or something like it)
I've read about things like markers and pdf loaded flash drives being put into the box as well, and while that sounds good on paper, I think that would bring the retail cost to well over $20. We're pushing close to that mark just in production costs and materials as it stands. Anything more than $20 is going to drive people away, and I want more people to RP with, not less.
Anyway, that's what I think about it.
I apparently can't edit my post 4 hours after said post. Ah well.
I just thought of something. For the adventure path, your could set it up so it takes players and new GMs through certain small scenarios, such as tracking some goblins through a tunnel and finding an underground gorge, requiring the party to make a jump check across the gorge. That's when you put in the specific rules for jumping and acrobatics checks, right as the players are doing it. That way the rule is learned, the players accomplished something, and the gamebook isn't bogged down with an entire section on rules that you have to thumb through every time something new comes up. Such a section could be nice as reference, but isn't strictly necessary, as it'd be redundant information. The players and GMs have used it in an actual game and the rules would be right there, on the page of the adventure path.
I figure you'd start with skill checks for basic interactions (diplomacy checks with the town mayor or something), then move on from there. Make the first combat basic 4 on 4 goblins, then start adding in Combat maneuvers. Let players assign their feats after seeing what combat maneuvers can do, and after seeing what pure damage can do (so they can determine if they want to be a pure damage dealer or a tech player)
If you trickle in the rules in a learn-as-you-go style, it becomes much less overwhelming and much more fun experience, especially if the players are destroying evil while they do it.
If paizo where to scrap 3.5 and move to a mechanic like storyteller system, with reduced complexity of system...[NITPICK]
I did not find the storyteller system to be very simple at all. I mean, I understand what you're saying but I heartily disagree with your example. Other than that, I solidly agree with everything else you're saying.
[/NITPICK]
Storyteller is not the simplest of systems ever, but by comparison to pathfinder it is simplicity itself. And of the major roleplaying brands, i struggle to think of one simpler, though part of that may be experience.
Personally, I'd really like to see the set packaged with a real Owlbear.
I've always wanted one of those.
They look cuddly.
I personally don't think a box is the way to go. It can't be made cheap enough to be the entry-level price point. I would much rather see a volume in the same format as the planet stories line, or if it must be a full sized RPG book, something in paperback like the AP/Chronicles stuff. The cheaper it is, the more likely people will pick it up. Heck, if Paizo can get it cheap enough for Free RPG day, they should consider doing that!
The best way to introduce players is to have a (physically) lightweight digest of the rules, probably the first 5-6 levels, retaining all of the classes and races. Trim the spell lists.
What is most important is not to cut and paste from the rulebook, but rather to build the presentation of the rules from the ground up, checking with real neophyte players at each step of production (which means continuously recruiting neophyte players — a task as difficult as it is necessary).
People can buy their own dice. The game should not be overly reliant on miniatures — full attack actions might be omitted since basically no-one will have iterative attacks anyway. Full-round spells can be omitted. It is easy to teach: "Move x feet and attack, or move x*2 feet."
When I first saw the core rules, I thought "Man this book is pretty, but they didn't really re-organize as much as they should have to draw new players!" I know this is due to time/development constraints, but it was a lost opportunity. I am really excited by the idea of a ground-up reorganization for new players, and I don't think it needs to be a new rule set, just a subsection of the existing rules, clearly worded.
My 2¢.
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Storyteller is not the simplest of systems ever, but by comparison to pathfinder it is simplicity itself. And of the major roleplaying brands, i struggle to think of one simpler, though part of that may be experience.
Fate seems to be gaining traction, with the Dresden Files RPG coming out. That's the example I'd use for a simple, narrative-driven RPG.
Storyteller is not the simplest of systems ever, but by comparison to pathfinder it is simplicity itself. And of the major roleplaying brands, i struggle to think of one simpler, though part of that may be experience.Fate seems to be gaining traction, with the Dresden Files RPG coming out. That's the example I'd use for a simple, narrative-driven RPG.
I use storyteller as an example, purely because I know it well. I have yet to try faith, though i hear good things.
It's already bad enough folks requesting Paizo to drop its bread-and-butter adventures and start aping WotC's supp focus: where's the pathfinder intro set? where are the pathfinder epic rules? where's psionics for pathfinder? where's UA? where's the pathfinder Complete series? etc.
Stand out, Paizo! ^_^
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Granted, my opinion in this matter isn't going to hold any weight whatsoever, especially if the powers-that-be have already definitely decided on a starter set.
But frankly, I'm with Paizo because they do their own thing and they're fantastic at it. I'd rather see them do something no one's done before to appeal to a new audience than yet another box set. And that's coming from someone who was pulled into D&D in the first place by the red box back in the 80's.
Let's face it; it's a different world than it was back then. RPG's are no longer the punching bag of the religious fundamentalists or the scapegoat for suicidal teenagers. Fantasy gaming is abundant, whether it be RPGs, computer or console gaming or in fiction. The key isn't to offer it in a package that'll draw in kids or newcomers who have never heard of an RPG before. It's got to appeal to someone who would rather play another system or just get on the computer.
I don't know what the answer is. There's a reason I'm not in the business of designing games or marketing. I'm just saying that one more boxed product to introduce people into a game like everyone else has is not going to be innovative. It's reactive, rather than proactive and there's going to have to be something ridiculously special about it to get a teenager to choose it over Essentials or one of the other boxed kits out there.
Then again, what do I know? I'm still boggling at the concept that people consider Pathfinder to be complex.
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So I am a DM who has introduced a handful utter noobs to Pathfinder and gotten them up to speed fairly quickly (at least on the basics).
Here's what I would want from a starter set.
3-4 basic classes: Fighter/Rogue/Oracle/Sorcerer. Normally people want the classic Cleric/Wizard but I am completely against that. As a DM I NEVER ever have a new player start with a preparation caster. As a new player, they are just trying to grasp the rules and in order to be a prep caster, you need to know the spells in order to know what are good ones to prep. Sorcerers and oracles have 3-4 spells that they use whenever. Its much simpler to manage.
As for races, I like the Human/Elf/Dwarf/Gnome idea with 1 - 2 racial features.
I think there should be about 2 pregen characters for each class. There should be blank character sheets for people who want to make their own (and advanced rules for making said characters,) but creating a character is a bit complex and they don't need to know how to make a character to play one. Optionally we could also use the Iconics as pre-mades for an extra personal touch.
Dice. Oh for the love of the gods have dice. It doesn't have to be fancy (but bonus points if they are) but you need dice. Every starter kit needs dice. There is nothing like a player's first set of dice.
Premade dungeon with a lot of DM advice. Make it a fun and simple dungeon (for both DM and players) with some variety (have monsters, traps, puzzles, etc) to give them a nice sample platter.
Flipmat or at the very least a paper battlemat. As a bonus you might on premade map tiles for the dungeons.
There should be limited rules, feats, and skills. There is no need to bog down a player on their first time. You always want to go light on the rules for new players. Let them experience the fun of Pathfinder before they get tangled up in the rules. Same thing with magical items.
The DMs should have a basic rule set (traps, some environmental hazards, poisons, afflictions, etc) but more importantly it needs to have some of the new DM advice from the Gamemastery Guide. I think that would be MUCH more useful than just the rules.
There should be a bestiary for all the monsters in the dungeons as well as anything fitting for a level 1-3 group as well as a few more powerful monsters as a teaser.
There should be an advanced section (stuff that isn't in the dungeon) for DMs and players. In there you can find things like weather effects, planar travel (as a teaser,) and for players a character creation section. However it needs more than the character creation guide in the Core Rulebook. Don't just tell them how to put stuff on a character sheet; show them how to make Rogar the exiled dwarven warrior. Show them how to flesh out their story. I know a good amount of players who know how to make a PC but not know how to make it a character. Making my character alive is the best part of character creation. Everything else is paperwork.
There should be a link to either the Official Paizo SRD or the player-made one: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/.
Minis would be a nice touch but not needed. I think there should be minis for the premades (or the Iconics,) but have paper tokens for the monsters. Throw in a few size templates for the larger creatures they might fight in the future.
Tokens - To be used as status markers, extra minis, etc.
Coupon for the Core Rulebook. This way when you get them addicted, they can get a book as a discounted price.
I would like the adventure to be in Varisia starting in Sandpoint :) the PC's are gathered together by the Venture Captains of the Pathfinder Society in Magnimar and sent to Sandpoint, and from there they are to set out on some quest for knowledge of ancient Thassilon.
Along the way they get to meet Native Varisians, Scarni, Shoanti, Kyonin Elves, and they get troubled by those pesky Goblins and their riding Geko's :) And they get to have fun with local Sandpoint Celebrities :) Maybe even get a glimps of the Sandpoint Devil :)
All at levels 1-6