Good Old Days! (Private) (Inactive)

Game Master Edeldhur

C&C Nights below for me!!!

C&C Nights below for me!!!

Excellent stuff chaps.

So I have Scran, our illustrious GM and possibly Helaman for C&C and OSW, OSGMO & possibly Helaman (+ Spazmodeous) for The Enemy Within. Will wait until I have any more (un)willing volunteers before casting my net further.

@OSGMO: Aye mate - like buses you wait an age for a Black Dow game and 2 come along at once. So plan is to run both.

Night Below will take a wee bit more prep work as its more sandlot but I'm hoping that as both are published adventures and are being run (essentially) as written I can run both successfully.

Short term chaps? I can’t take on another game until Feb. Long story but my bandwidth is narrow with life stuff. That said I am interested in joining Spazmodeus in WHFRP at the minimum

@Helaman: Know you like yourself some Old World - could easily introduce your character down further down the road or Reik? RL comes first chief, but happy to keep a spot for you down the line.

Well I guess I might be interested (ok, I am really interested...lol)

That last post was a bugger to think thru before I released that his thought speed was slower than any assassin.

Haha. I'm sorry mate - Sly is a horrible bastard so am trying to play him like one... but hey the Sheriff was either equally nasty or he's been royally played by the wife lol.

Guess we'll have time to reflect when we're burning in their Wickerman :S

@OSGMO: Aye mate - like buses you wait an age for a Black Dow game and 2 come along at once. So plan is to run both.

Night Below will take a wee bit more prep work as its more sandlot but I'm hoping that as both are published adventures and are being run (essentially) as written I can run both successfully.

You are a braver man than I am, running two games :)

I have however recently arrived at the conclusion that sandboxes are perhaps easier to run than scripted adventures/modules? I feel like I 'just' need to be aware of what is going on, and drop the players in it. Mainly in PbP which usually moves slower, making it easier for the DM to react. Or maybe it is just that old habits die hard, and I just feel more relaxed when I am making stuff up, instead of following a plan.

Which is odd, because I am a complete sucker for adventures/modules/campaigns/adventure paths/younameit :D

I agree that is a little counter-intuitive. I guess depending on the setting I might be more comfortable running a sandbox - like my own setting is second nature but a published one might need more prep, though compared to a dungeon (which kind of constrains choices/avenues) any sort of wilderness/hexcrawl/investigation necessarily requires more prep. BUT in PbP I feel like you’ve got all the time in the the world to prepare for whatever the players…glacially….decide…to…do. It’s the nature of the medium!

Black Dow wrote:

@OSGMO: Aye mate - like buses you wait an age for a Black Dow game and 2 come along at once. So plan is to run both.

You are a braver man than I am, running two games :)

Brave? Nah. Stupid... foolhardy... Wee bit "touched" by the bogles... Aye. Guilty as charged lol.

Couple of musings:

- Been taking a break to stat up Sly in PF1 and he'll defo work as a Rogue building to Assassin. So PFCore - I'm in.

- Night Below prep continues - will likely be closer to the end of the month, but might open up the discussion earlier to stop me clogging up here and allow folk to work on PC building. I'll try and get the campaign page up and running proper this weekend.

When are we making the shift to PF1. Is it point buy? If so how many?

When are we making the shift to PF1. Is it point buy? If so how many?

After They are Hanged.

I was initially considering the possibility of you keeping your ability dice rolls. Like we discussed before, I like the randomness of it all (I actually need to check my PF1e Player's Handbook, to verify if there is any such method in there). But I am still on the fence between that option, a 15-20pt buy, and some sort of spread for you to distribute.

Helaman wrote:

When are we making the shift to PF1. Is it point buy? If so how many?

After They are Hanged.

Maybe just a good old mob beating with shovel and hoe. Who knows?

I was initially considering the possibility of you keeping your ability dice rolls. Like we discussed before, I like the randomness of it all (I actually need to check my PF1e Player's Handbook, to verify if there is any such method in there). But I am still on the fence between that option, a 15-20pt buy, and some sort of spread for you to distribute.

In the meantime I took a look in the book at the ability generation methods (feels like I had never done that before), and one of the options is indeed the Classic 3d6, but assigning them as you see fit.

So I guess we can go with the same stats you already rolled. I think the racial bonuses (which are more relevant in PF1e than OSwReign) also offer a good way to have additional control over ability stats. And yes, with some suspension of disbelief, it would be fine for you guys to change race if you so desire ;)

EDIT: And now that I’ve got it off the shelf, I think I will read through the Core Rulebook. Might discover some interesting stuff.

I'll give PF1 another shot... but I gotta admit I'm not looking forward to taking a -3 to WIS based, a -2 to CHA based and a -1 to STR based skills... especially since skills play such a large role in Pathfinder.

Ãrwulf Stenn wrote:

Helaman wrote:

When are we making the shift to PF1. Is it point buy? If so how many?

After They are Hanged.

Maybe just a good old mob beating with shovel and hoe. Who knows?

Heh. I was making a literary riff on the book “Before They Are Hanged”. The author created the character Black Dow…

Old School GM Obermind wrote:

I was initially considering the possibility of you keeping your ability dice rolls. Like we discussed before, I like the randomness of it all (I actually need to check my PF1e Player's Handbook, to verify if there is any such method in there). But I am still on the fence between that option, a 15-20pt buy, and some sort of spread for you to distribute.

In the meantime I took a look in the book at the ability generation methods (feels like I had never done that before), and one of the options is indeed the Classic 3d6, but assigning them as you see fit.

So I guess we can go with the same stats you already rolled. I think the racial bonuses (which are more relevant in PF1e than OSwReign) also offer a good way to have additional control over ability stats. And yes, with some suspension of disbelief, it would be fine for you guys to change race if you so desire ;)

EDIT: And now that I’ve got it off the shelf, I think I will read through the Core Rulebook. Might discover some interesting stuff.

I’m of the firm opinion 3d6 is good for Basic DnD or DCC. That’s about it.

Naaaaah. It works fine for Parhfinder 1e.

Hoping this works for the GM as a chance to put this back on the tracks.

Hoping this works for the GM as a chance to put this back on the tracks.

I don’t think Grimmsgate has seen a lot of “trial by combat”. Then again, the sheriff is dead, whoever is in charge might have unorthodox ways of dealing with trouble makers, but really, I don’t see three “murderers” going free because one beat someone’s head to pudding in a legal ritual…

Naaaaah. It works fine for Parhfinder 1e.

Maybe. It might be better than a 15 point buy even. And as you say, with the human racial bonuses, Ārwulf could end up halfway decent, and I’d likely just keep him as is and apply the bonuses. Though I don’t see him living long in this chapter of the game. ;p

But why the resistance to a chance for “better” stats? Is it a nod to the good old days? Which I completely understand given the game’s title! Are we supposed to be lacklustre in a harsh world, and pull ourselves up by sheer determination, good planning and luck? I’m not sure having any particular array generation really prevents nor promotes any of that.

I don’t believe 20 or even 25 point buy is overpowered, just more well-rounded, or at least being afforded more choice rather than being locked out of “practical options”. I mean I’ve played all sorts of under-powered characters, but that is more through unorthodox choices rather than being dictated to from the outset. Then again, I don’t really like point buy, and it would be my least favorite option. ;)

Old School GM Obermind wrote:

Naaaaah. It works fine for Parhfinder 1e.

Maybe. It might be better than a 15 point buy even. And as you say, with the human racial bonuses, Ārwulf could end up halfway decent, and I’d likely just keep him as is and apply the bonuses. Though I don’t see him living long in this chapter of the game. ;p

Well, he is still alive.

But why the resistance to a chance for “better” stats? Is it a nod to the good old days? Which I completely understand given the game’s title! Are we supposed to be lacklustre in a harsh world, and pull ourselves up by sheer determination, good planning and luck? I’m not sure having any particular array generation really prevents nor promotes any of that.

I don’t believe 20 or even 25 point buy is overpowered, just more well-rounded, or at least being afforded more choice rather than being locked out of “practical options”. I mean I’ve played all sorts of under-powered characters, but that is more through unorthodox choices rather than being dictated to from the outset. Then again, I don’t really like point buy, and it would be my least favorite option. ;)

Don’t know if it is a resistance, perhaps more of an experiment. Does the system break down if you have penalties to ability scores? Does it become unplayable, or not/less fun? Or will it actually turn out better/more challenging/interesting if you cannot simply brute force over everything?

I don’t think PCs can ever be lackluster in PF, there are just too many options which allow them to shine. But I do think it can be interesting starting only ‘slightly’ above the pack, and actually feel the progression as that differential increases.

Also, I think characters should have strong points, but also ‘less strong’ points to them. Yes of course they can be roleplayed, but they can also be related to your ability scores. Of course this is all just a different approach to playing the game is all, see how it turns out. It is ok to not like it, but it is also ok if we arrive at the conclusion it works out just fine.

Least in PF1 a characters Class Skill bonus can offset any shortfalls in their ability bonus. Traits are good at helping that too ;)

Think in the current game situation Bluff and Intimidate checks would have been winging about as much as the butchery.

Am hoping throwing the Merry Widow into the mix with put the yokel lynch mob on the back foot... possibly Pater High Sparrow at the very least.

Worst case Sly will shout Squirrel again lol.

OSGMO: What is Ārwulf's status? Is the "good" Pater healing him or just leaving him hovering at minimal HP?

Okay. I am at an existential crisis with Woy and am going to metagame and trust in the DM rather than kickoff a murder spree… and hope that gets everyone/everything back on track (whatever that may be).

That said, I have zero interest in RPing a week in Jail, trial and hanging/being lynched. If that’s on the menu, let me know up front.

Least in PF1 a characters Class Skill bonus can offset any shortfalls in their ability bonus. Traits are good at helping that too ;)

Exactly :)

OSGMO: What is Ārwulf's status? Is the "good" Pater healing him or just leaving him hovering at minimal HP?

He is not casting any healing spells for the time being, if that is what you are asking. Maybe he isn’t a spellcaster at all?

Okay. I am at an existential crisis with Woy and am going to metagame and trust in the DM rather than kickoff a murder spree… and hope that gets everyone/everything back on track (whatever that may be).

That said, I have zero interest in RPing a week in Jail, trial and hanging/being lynched. If that’s on the menu, let me know up front.

There will be no such RP. If it turns out that is your fate, I will just sum it up in a blurb.

I was going to have Ārwulf slide off a fence post as a nod to “dropping your weapons” but I think Ārwulf is just lying on the ground gurgling away with thoughts of dancing…mops…in his heads….

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

Old School GM Obermind wrote:

Naaaaah. It works fine for Parhfinder 1e.

Maybe. It might be better than a 15 point buy even. And as you say, with the human racial bonuses, Ārwulf could end up halfway decent, and I’d likely just keep him as is and apply the bonuses. Though I don’t see him living long in this chapter of the game. ;p

Well, he is still alive.

“Oceanshieldwolf” wrote:

But why the resistance to a chance for “better” stats? Is it a nod to the good old days? Which I completely understand given the game’s title! Are we supposed to be lacklustre in a harsh world, and pull ourselves up by sheer determination, good planning and luck? I’m not sure having any particular array generation really prevents nor promotes any of that.

I don’t believe 20 or even 25 point buy is overpowered, just more well-rounded, or at least being afforded more choice rather than being locked out of “practical options”. I mean I’ve played all sorts of under-powered characters, but that is more through unorthodox choices rather than being dictated to from the outset. Then again, I don’t really like point buy, and it would be my least favorite option. ;)

Don’t know if it is a resistance, perhaps more of an experiment. Does the system break down if you have penalties to ability scores? Does it become unplayable, or not/less fun? Or will it actually turn out better/more challenging/interesting if you cannot simply brute force over everything?

I don’t think PCs can ever be lackluster in PF, there are just too many options which allow them to shine. But I do think it can be interesting starting only ‘slightly’ above the pack, and actually feel the progression as that differential increases.

Also, I think characters should have strong points, but also ‘less strong’ points to them. Yes of course they can be roleplayed, but they can also be related to your ability scores. Of course this is all just a different approach to playing the game is all, see how it turns out. Itis ok to not like it, but it is also ok if we arrive at the conclusion it works out just fine.

Fair enough. Not sure I follow the “brute force” analogy however. I’m assuming by “force” you are meaning more than just the physical stats, as the casters likely need high Int/Wis/Cha to power their “force”. I guess my point is that with lower stats overall, the characters are weaker physically, and more…dull mentally. Having no ability to blunder through with strength also means the characters won’t be able to bluff, trick or even think their way out of a paper bag. In which case it is the players metagaming strategies and tactics for their foolish, stupid characters. Which goes a long way to breaking verisimilitude. I’d much rather plan cleverly with a clever character, and make brutish decisions for a brute.

Which I feel is kinda auto-chosen by the erratic and low spread of 3d6 - warriors, to be at all effective will *have* to dump every low roll into their mental stats.

But I guess that all speaks to the discussion points I made upthread about how to “play” low mental scores - perhaps it really is better to play ultra low mental stats as “socially well within the normal range” but mechanically…just having an Achilles heel to effects/saves and not roleplayed as you say… Something to ponder.

I don’t think it becomes unplayable, or unfun. But definitely restricted. And I find the restriction difficult to resolve as it provides too ample a breakdown between player and character. I guess this can be offset by a smart character, who *can* come up with a plan…for the rest of the fools to follow…

@OSGMO: sent you a PM with regards to Gurgling Ārwulf…

@OSGMO: sent you a PM with regards to Gurgling Ārwulf…

Saw that. Replied!

Fair enough. Not sure I follow the “brute force” analogy however. I’m assuming by “force” you are meaning more than just the physical stats, as the casters likely need high Int/Wis/Cha to power their “force”. I guess my point is that with lower stats overall, the characters are weaker physically, and more…dull mentally. Having no ability to blunder through with strength also means the characters won’t be able to bluff, trick or even think their way out of a paper bag. In which case it is the players metagaming strategies and tactics for their foolish, stupid characters. Which goes a long way to breaking verisimilitude. I’d much rather plan cleverly with a clever character, and make brutish decisions for a brute.

Which I feel is kinda auto-chosen by the erratic and low spread of 3d6 - warriors, to be at all effective will *have* to dump every low roll into their mental stats.

But I guess that all speaks to the discussion points I made upthread about how to “play” low mental scores - perhaps it really is better to play ultra low mental stats as “socially well within the normal range” but mechanically…just having an Achilles heel to effects/saves and not roleplayed as you say… Something to ponder.

I don’t think it becomes unplayable, or unfun. But definitely restricted. And I find the restriction difficult to resolve as it provides too ample a breakdown between player and character. I guess this can be offset by a smart character, who *can* come up with a plan…for the rest of the fools to follow…

The 'brute force' applies in many situations. Using as an example the current 'predicament' a part of the group finds themselves in - I am firmly convinced the fact we are playing a game WITHOUT any skills at all RAW, has played a major role in the subsequent fact that no one has called for the usual 'Johnny Charmer steps in and argues for the innocence of his companions, asking Father Almery for clemency and an opportunity to show their hearts is in the right place' + roll Diplomacy (which Johnny has a whopping +10 bonus to at level 1) and BAM! 26! Reaction shifted from 'unfriendly' to Neutral by a die roll. So everyone involved is trying to actually find a way around it, their heads spinning trying to navigate it, and uncertain of the end results. I think that is a good thing, which has been avoided by not being able to resort to 'brute force' rolling.

Same situation with the slab and the grime - in a 'standard' PF1e game, that would have been a 'brute force' amalgam of die rolls to unravel what could be done or not. But what happened really was some brainstorming, some ideas, coupled with some minor dice rolling - much more dynamic in my opinion.

Of course as one says, your mileage may vary, and it will depend definitely more on the group than on the system. But the system does influence behavior in a determinant way, in my opinion.

The flipside is that I do find skills useful, and I like that in PF1e - I like the fact that even with a Charisma of 6, if you drop one skill point in Diplomacy, you are already in 'the positives', and you can keep getting better at it. Even if you are dumb as a doorbell, you can still have a great knowledge of History because you learned it somehow, etc etc.

The verisimilitude of the game will always be an issue, because you will always be your character, but at the same time not - one can usually find traces of the players in their characters almost all the time, and it is not easy to distance ourselves from our characters. So I think that will always be on the table, and personally feel that starting 'average' at everything, and then 'excellent' at some others can detract from the game's possibilities.

Which yep, definitely falls in line with your questions about roleplaying low mental scores.

Please keep in mind however, I am not saying this is 'right' or 'wrong', or this is the definitive way in which I want to play. Heck, only after a few short months I am already considering changing systems hehe. Just happy we are discussing if we are enjoying ourselves or not, and sharing opinions.

Thanks for the granular discussion on skills - I was having a bit of trouble following you and BD’s notes about class skills and how they impact/ameliorate low stats.

As for the ubiquity of dice rolling, I’d have to agree 100% - one thing I’ve been enjoying in my PbP’s at the moment is narrating what I’m doing and then letting the GM decide if a dice roll is…necessary or required. I admit I find the whole “roll” to “win” social encounters actually works to, ironically, actually impair the narration. And takes the decision out of the DM’s hands because “teh dice roll woz high”.

So gang, I think this is a good moment for us to pause and reconvene.

First of all, a disclaimer - I have no 'planned' direction for you to follow, or railroads to place you upon, so please keep that in mind.

As things currently stand, Sly, Woy and Ãrwulf will be taken into custody and locked up in a makeshift prison until 'the authorities' come for them, presumably to take them to Troye. That's how far I have planned, but even that is not written in stone.

Now... There are several 'adventuring possibilities' right there, but I want to hear what are YOUR character's plans, mainly from Darcy, Calhoun and Lewill - how do they see these events, and the group members involved in the tussle, and death of the sheriff - is that a dealbreaker, or would they consider continue adventuring with those accused of murder?

But also from the trio of doom, if they have any plans in mind.

This could also be a good moment to 'migrate' your characters to PF1e, or change into different characters altogether, I will leave that up to you.

Last but not least, let me know if you have any other thoughts, on the game so far, on the change of rules, on the course of events, the pace, the sandbox vs. plot hooks, anything really.

And also of course if you are interested in continuing or not, after the three month sample we've had. There is this weird assumption around these boards sometimes, that you are forced to play in whatever game you joined just because games/DMs are rare. But I disagree, everyone has the right to say at any point 'this is not for me'. I think that is also one of the reasons why so many PbP games simply... Die slowly. The pace is challenging, or the players suck, or the DM sucks, or the story sucks, many reasons are possible - but the fact is people lose interest, and they don't act on it, just letting things drag along. To a point it becomes much more draining to all involved than simply leaving.

Let me know your thoughts.

Much as Ārwulf’s chaperoning of Woy has been fun, I’m happy to let him die of sepsis and gangrene on a dirty cot in a dank, poorly ventilated doss house in Grimmsgate.

And roll up a new Half-Orc cleric in PF1 Core.

I do feel there has been a split in the party between the hapless-go-lucky murder hobos and those of stricter moral fibre. So I’m also wanting to play someone more in the middle, a moderate if you will…

I’m happy with the set (you guys) and setting (Grimmsgate et al) and the DM. So I’m here to stay.

I guess with the low ability scores Darcy has I don't see any advantage to switching to PF1. She's already playing her low ability scores... but now it seems they'll be a mechanical penalty involved with them. Many skills are tied to CHA and WIS which basically turn her into either ineffective or a one-trick pony.

WIS 5 - Same as a Giant Maggot - Incapable of planning (Which she is doing now... but her perception score, will saves etc will not be mechanically enforced).

CHA 6 - Same as a Troll - Uninteresting, rude, boorish, and generally unpleasant to be around.

I don't think it's too bad to have to replay one bad ability score but not being able to sense what people are really up to, resist their attempts to influence her, talk to people, scare people, or lie to them will be challenging to say the least.

As I said I like this group and the setting, and think it's been fun so far... I just hope assigning die rolls to her challenging stats don't ruin the feeling. I guess part of that is also we decided to go with a "Rules Light" game and are now transitioning into one that is so swollen with options that I've given up on it in real life. :-). One extreme to another. I don't see any problems with the way we've been playing.

As far as the current situation. If Darcy were capable of planning anything she'd suggest they spend the next day trying to figure out what they originally came for before... "Squirrel"... then perhaps under the cover of night break their more... well... impatient companions out and run somewhere else... perhaps to where they are supposed to go.

I'm enjoying playing Sly - he's not a nice person and is somewhat despicable and still has a job lol. He also has CHA 6 so he's unpleasant and "off" - will have to work on that a little more lol.

Think he'll translate well into PF1 if he survives the noose.

As for what he had planned. Escape or get out - carry on with his mission and if it involves leaving the snarky deputy in a pool of his own blood - bonus :)

@Darcy: Don't remember anymore, but I think I allowed people to move the stats around as they pleased. So that, coupled with the racial bonuses, would give you some 'wiggle' room?

@BD: I wonder what the advent of alignment in PF1e will make to Sly :)

Like I said I'll give it a shot but with a 9 (-1), 16 (+3), 14 (+2), 11 (+0), 5 (-3), and 6 (-2) there really isn't a place to move things around. Total of bonuses is -1...

I'm liking that Sly has Str12 (+1), Dex17 (+3), Con9 (-1), Int12 (+1), Wis11 (-) Cha6 (-2)... Flawed but fun lol. I stripped back his stats to the originals rolled then applied PF ability modifier. Lost a points on CON & WIS but gained one on DEX. Swings and roundabouts. Lower Con fits as someone whose consumed too many traces of poison in his time.

Skills are nicely adding up too.

Alignment... Thinking Chaotic Neutral, as Neutral Evil is a little too dark even for him. Will be dropping the zealot angle I think tho - was something I had to continually crowbar in. Prefer an angle where he's tippled the toxins and its let him a little bad and addled.

EDIT: Of course the above was before I remembered about Norgorber... Perhaps Sly is one of Blackfingers' faithful...

@OSGMO: Can we make the shift immediately too PF1? Just want to know before I repopulate my profile.

so we are keeping our rolled stats and just transferring it to our new PF1 characters? I will keep as a ranger probably as well

@OSGMO: Can we make the shift immediately too PF1? Just want to know before I repopulate my profile.

Sure, why not? There is no Norgorber in the Lost Lands, but I’m sure we can find a fit.

so we are keeping our rolled stats and just transferring it to our new PF1 characters? I will keep as a ranger probably as well

Yessir!

Black Dow wrote:

@OSGMO: Can we make the shift immediately too PF1? Just want to know before I repopulate my profile.

Sure, why not? There is no Norgorber in the Lost Lands, but I’m sure we can find a fit.

Ach. See I just automatically went into Golarian mode when I donned the olde PF coat. Nah its cool, let's not muddy his backstory with a religious zeal.

Ok, I found this from upthread:

Attribute Generation

1. Roll 3d6 6 times 

2. Assign to stats at will = Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis Cha. 

3. If you do not have at least a 14 
or 
If your average bonus modifier is lower than 0. 
Then you can ask me to roll a new set of 6x3d6 (but you will have to keep the ones I roll :P)

3d6 ⇒ (2, 2, 6) = 10
3d6 ⇒ (6, 6, 3) = 15
3d6 ⇒ (3, 6, 6) = 15
3d6 ⇒ (5, 6, 4) = 15
3d6 ⇒ (2, 2, 4) = 8
3d6 ⇒ (5, 4, 6) = 15

Gender: Male 1-3, Female 4-6: 1d6 ⇒ 3

Well. Ok. I stand…corrected. That is definitely more than a 15 point buy. More than a 20 point buy perhaps.

A weak and charismatic Half-Orc!?! What wytchcraft is this! Forget the Shire-Reeve murderer - to the Wickerman with this abomination!

A weak and charismatic Half-Orc!?! What wytchcraft is this! Forget the Shire-Reeve murderer - to the Wickerman with this abomination!

Heh. Luckily, they can be assigned at will.

I think I’ll go:

Str 15
Dex 10
Con 15
Int 15
Wis 17 (15 + 2)
Cha 8

I will likely make another fighter… Woy is out of the game short term, and as much as I like him AS a character, it’s gonna be delay and faffing about.

I do agree that the old school approach has led to a “let’s not roll our way out of this” solution.