[SPOILERS] Combining the Menador Gap with Deepmar

Does anyone see a problem with changing Deepmar to a mountainous island that is still used as a prison?
I'm thinking to have the entrance be the Menador gap and the main target (as written) instead be a "high security" cell with Jackdaw being held there (would I have to make Jackdaw incomprehensible until she appears as written in the AP?). Possibly add a few other NPCs like Strea Vestori there as well (change the fight under the Silver Star to simply be something for the PCs to clear out.)
Maybe use a rumour along the lines of "Thrune keeps high profile prisoners there. Gold to grubs that's where Jilia is being held!" (false rumour).
Since the main target is in the keep it makes it so that if the PCs try to bypass it by climbing over a different part of the island they still have to go to the keep to get who they really came for. I'd use No Response from Deepmar for the maps and prison but probably without the derro.

This fixes the problem of the players asking "why would Thrune ignore his island prison becoming quiet?" as well as taking Jackdaw out of Kintargo where it doesn't make sense that Jilia (or previous lord-mayors) completely ignored the jail in their town just because.

Possibly have it so that Tiarise had been in charge of the prison but that recently changed due to Barzillai needing her in town more. (Or should I move Tiarise, who has become a hated character by the PCs, to the boss of Menador Gap now prison? Would she be too difficult of a fight? Maybe have her flee so they hate her even more!)

Does anyone see any potential problems with this?
Anything you would suggest doing differently?

OH! And I could use the derro and other critters in No Response if the players try to find a way into the prison without going through the keep!

With Jackdaw in the secret levels of the prison, I kind of like the implication that--no matter how good the mayor is--the underlying system makes them a bit of a figure head, as she has no idea that this area, and the LICH, are even there.

Does anyone see a problem with changing Deepmar to a mountainous island that is still used as a prison?

(Or should I move Tiarise, who has become a hated character by the PCs, to the boss of Menador Gap now prison? Would she be too difficult of a fight? Maybe have her flee so they hate her even more!)

Does anyone see any potential problems with this?
Anything you would suggest doing differently?

I would suggest you to use another prison map, like the famous blackmaw prison from dungeon magazine 135, and use the first of the deepmar maps as the surface level of the prison.

I would also avoid to have Tiarise there, since does not seem in character to her to bother with such a place.

Instead i would suggest to make this area a "sandbox", in the sense that you should build a few events, each written around a potential all of the pics. People such as ...
1) Freedom fighters from the city of Pezzak, which may assist your rebels with advanced guerrilla tactics if freed
2) an ulfen captain whose freedom may grant Kintargo a powerful commercial ally
3) an official of the Glorious Reclamation, or a magical beast being forced to slave labour.

Point is, Deepmar as (not) written in the module is a place a group of level 8 Pcs would steamroll and conquer. The Menador Gap is a little more tough. I would suggest to simply Buff up Mr Lucian Thrune by making him a level 12 knight (use the statblock of beloved iconic Alain and it's gonna be good).

With Jackdaw in the secret levels of the prison, I kind of like the implication that--no matter how good the mayor is--the underlying system makes them a bit of a figure head, as she has no idea that this area, and the LICH, are even there.

That is true, but who was in charge of the keep before Barzillai brought in the Order of the Rack? Is there a decent reason for no one to have gone down to that level that didn't come up and go "hey, that's some bad stuff down there"?

I would suggest you to use another prison map, like the famous blackmaw prison from dungeon magazine 135, and use the first of the deepmar maps as the surface level of the prison.

Perfect! Thank you! I was going to look for a map to use later on this week. This saves me the time.

I would also avoid to have Tiarise there, since does not seem in character to her to bother with such a place.

Because she's being told to go and do it? I dunno.... you're right. I know that her motivations for being in Kintargo mostly come down to helping Barzillai with some rituals but I haven't figured out a reason she's encountered where she is in the book... it seems weird to me. Especially since she isn't being used for his big ritual. Wait.... why is she in Kintargo?

Point is, Deepmar as (not) written in the module is a place a group of level 8 Pcs would steamroll and conquer. The Menador Gap is a little more tough. I would suggest to simply Buff up Mr Lucian Thrune by making him a level 12 knight (use the statblock of beloved iconic Alain and it's gonna be good).

My thought was to run Menador as written but place it as the entrance to Deepmar instead. So I don't think I'd have to change the fights at all. It looks like the guards will be fairly easy, as is Lucian. The guards being easy is fine (it makes sense, they're guards), but having Tiarise in place of Lucian would make the quest have more meaning to the players.

One of the problems I'm currently trying to solve is:

Thank you, both of you, for your input and thoughts.

The Glorious Reclamation paladin/official is a great idea if you're leaning in to the national context at your table.

With Jackdaw in the secret levels of the prison, I kind of like the implication that--no matter how good the mayor is--the underlying system makes them a bit of a figure head, as she has no idea that this area, and the LICH, are even there.

• They were hoisted by their own petard--redactions of that time in history have her listed as an unnamed, unremarkable prisoner.
  
• It takes a DC 30 Perception check to find the relevant file naming that prisoner as Jackdaw in the records hall.
  
• It takes a DC 30 Perception check to find the secret door to Jackdaw and the lich.
  

Basically, there's no ostensible reason to visit that level except for the Maximum Security cells, which haven't been used or visited in so long that they retain the skeletons of its inhabitants. (That alone is evidence that no good-aligned or particularly religious Mayor ever came down to this level.)

roguerouge wrote:

With Jackdaw in the secret levels of the prison, I kind of like the implication that--no matter how good the mayor is--the underlying system makes them a bit of a figure head, as she has no idea that this area, and the LICH, are even there.

Fair point--why would this go unknown? The module lists the following reasons:

• They were hoisted by their own petard--redactions of that time in history have her listed as an unnamed, unremarkable prisoner.
  
• It takes a DC 30 Perception check to find the relevant file naming that prisoner as Jackdaw in the records hall.
  
• It takes a DC 30 Perception check to find the secret door to Jackdaw and the lich.
  

Basically, there's no ostensible reason to visit that level except for the Maximum Security cells, which haven't been used or visited in so long that they retain the skeletons of its inhabitants. (That alone is evidence that no good-aligned or particularly religious Mayor ever came down to this level.)

Except that's not exactly what's written.

Yes, it's DC30 perception check to find the secret door to the hidden file room. And again to find the reference to Jackdaw. (See room D7 and 7a.)

And yes, D10 has this quote: "A successful DC 30 Perception check is required to find the secret doors leading into this room." Except if you look at the map, there is one non-secret door that leads into the room.

Even if we assume the map is mistaken and all doors into D10 are secret, a DC30 perception check is not really much of a challenge for characters of 11th level (likely level of pc's at this point.) Taking 20 makes success almost guaranteed. Further, if the corridor leading to D10 ends in a wall, the layout, given the other wings of the level virtually screams "SECRET DOOR HERE!" Sure, typical Dottari couldn't find it but many NPC's with a few levels have a good chance. Kyrre for instance, certainly could. And over 70 years no one has? Not to mention, the First Warden's description states she was caring for all the prisoners on this level - implying she moved about the entire level. Again and no one has seen her in 70 years?

My solution: make the entire level hidden behind a magically hidden secret door with a much harder DC, such as 40 so it takes someone really rare or true seeing, etc. to find it. And it takes a long neglected object, say a baton of authority that is passed to each leader of the Castle to open.

Apologies as the ensuing rant is off-topic.

Frankly the AP is inconsistent about Jackdaw.
Page 9: "This adventure assumes that the PCs managed to restore either Jilia Bainilus to life or Shensen to flesh. Either of these NPCs can report something shocking: Jackdaw, the original leader of the Silver Ravens, has been kept as a secret prisoner deep below Kintargo Keep since House Thrune first seized control of Cheliax decades ago. Both NPCs learned this information from Barzillai before the lord-mayor saw to their silence (via vampirism or petrification,respectively)"

Page 29: "Fortunately for the PCs, House Thrune’s thorough redaction of Kintargo’s history was quite efficient, and while both Kyrre and Barzillai know that one prisoner remains under guard by an ancient Hellknight lich in the dungeons below, neither of them realizes Jackdaw is a significant figure to the rebellion."

Page 37: "In the so-called “Hall of Triumphs,” the temple displays works of art commemorating the defeat of Thrune’s enemies in Kintargo. It’s a place where priests can relax and meditate, as well as a place to bring potential enemies to warn them of the foolishness of opposing the church. Among the works of art here are depictions of Jackdaw’s imprisonment and the defeat of other members of the original Silver Ravens."

So does Barzillai know Jackdaw was part of the Silver Ravens or not? If he doesn't think she's significant, why is he even mentioning her in front of either Jilia or Shensen? And both the Lord Mayor and the leader of the Hellknights in Kintargo know an elf who predates House Thune's ascendancy in Cheliax and was the leader of the original Silver Ravens - the same group that inspired the current rebellion - is a prisoner of a Hellknight LICH(!!!) in the bowels of the castle but neither think she is important???

I'm okay if Barzillai has the classic BBEG weakness - monologue in front of the wrong people, but let's work toward consistency. Either:
- neither Barzillai nor Kyrre has the slightest clue that either the level or Jackdaw exists OR
- Barzillai knows Jackdaw was sent to the Keep and lost forever and he boasts to both Jilia and Shensen that that will be their fate. But Jilia (or Shensen or someone else long-lived in Kintargo) knows there was a hidden level in the keep that predates Thrune rule. OR
- Barzillai knows Jackdaw is there and intends to use her in some way against the Silver Ravens. Perhaps as a hostage. Or as an excruciation target.

roguerouge -- I had forgotten the details in the AP but they seem really flimsy to me and I don't think my players would buy in on the idea that Barzillai and his crew didn't know about the two secret rooms.

Latrecis -- I like the idea of the entire floor being forgotten about and your second idea of Barzillai not knowing Jackdaw is there but boasts about people going there and being forgotten about makes sense as something to point the PCs in that direction. I may use that if I decide to not go with the changes I'm currently considering.
Do you see any problems with the PCs rescuing her early and my idea of using the Menador Gap encounters as the entrance to Deepmar Prison? (And do you think it would be too early for a group to encounter Tiarise there instead of Lucian?)
I figure if I have an NPC (like Strea) being held below the relocated Menador Keep they'll rescue her and (likely) Jackdaw without knowing who Jackdaw is. Then maybe I could have them find the information when they're going through Kintargo Keep and clearing it of the Order of the Rack.

One item I didn't mention in my previous response: my group is also interested in finding out who was responsible for the horrible events in the Devil's Nursery so I'm also looking for ways to increase Tiarise's appearances.

I don't see any reason you couldn't add her to your Deepmar prison. Why couldn't both she and Lucian be there? Lucian is the official commander of the garrison/prison and Tiarise is there on some mission of Barzillai's. (Not sure what that would be - perhaps interrogating some prisoners, maybe even Jackdaw?)

If they rescue Jackdaw, they don't really need any more information from the Keep since Jackdaw can tell them anything they could learn there (and a lot more!) Perhaps both Thrune and the Silver Ravens learn about Jackdaw's existence and he sends Tiarise and the pc's head there as well. Maybe its a race to see who gets there first. Maybe the pc's destroy the prison/close the gap as much to prevent pursuit as to secure a military advantage.

Kintargo Keep is still an important target in Song of Silver - the pc's need to take out the Order of the Rack. Perhaps they find out about the illicit agreement between Barzillai and the Order and they head there to find evidence and take out the Order's leadership.

For increasing Tiarise's presence throughout the AP:
I used Razcar's idea (found here) and had a note in Wex's hidden room implicating "T" had something to do with Wex getting the kukri.

Background for Wex, Tiarise, Mangvhune, et al:

And yeah, I realized that the group would lose one of the reasons for going into Kintargo Keep but figured that taking out the Hellknights would be reason enough.
(Related to that: Has anyone found a stronger reason that the PCs can use to get the Hellknights to leave Kintargo? Having them taking the Order of the Torrent's things and breaking an undefined code seems like most groups would look at it and say "but that won't be enough to shame them into leaving")

One answer on the Order of the Rack is simply to ignore the supposedly illegal bargain with Barzillai. Not really a political dimension to the tactic or encounter - the Order of the Rack has to be completely removed from Kintargo - they'll never stand for an independent Ravounel. Simply find all the Order's members and put them in the dead book. Book 4 is Civil War - go where the bad people are and make them go away. With violence. You could add more Hellknights to the Keep and have Order of the Torrent join the pc's in a full assault. When the Keep is retaken and Barzillai and the Temple of Asmodeus are defeated, the surviving Rack members flee Kintargo. Or join in the final confrontation at the bridge. The Order of the Rack doesn't leave for shame, they are defeated militarily or lose morale.

That was what I was thinking of doing. Fighting and driving them off through force seems more satisfying than "we have information that we won't share if you promise to leave us alone".
Why would the paralictor believe that the PCs wouldn't share it later? Why wouldn't the PCs share it later?
Why would anyone bad person that matters believe them? (Things are too easy to forge and I'm sure the government is aware of that.)

Good idea on getting the Order of the Torrent in on the siege of Kintargo Keep!

Just occurred to me: the improper? illegal? agreement between Barzillai and the Order of the Rack isn't very useful in getting rid of the Order of the Rack itself but it might be useful to the Silver Ravens after Book 4 when events turn again to political engagements. The evidence House Thrune is utterly corrupt, betraying one Hellknight Order for the profit of another might be another point in their favor when the pc's negotiate with prospective members of the Board of Governors. And I would think Abrogail II would be very interested in keeping such things very private - she has no interest in causing either friction between Hellknight orders or having them question their loyalty to her while she is fighting the Glorious Reformation.

Good point! The PCs could leverage it to get a pro-Thrune noble house to back them... possibly get the family to leave Kintargo and gift the house/property to someone that they want to make a noble family (with the agreement that the pro-Thrune family gets the contract from the PCs, which they can then use as leverage to get something from her Infernal Majestrix.)
Or possibly trade the contract to the Thrune negotiator if the peace talks don't go well...

Really, the group could do what they want with the papers. It would be up to them to come up with ideas.
I like that idea... originally I was just going to take the agreement out but now I'm going to leave it in and let the group decide what they want to do with that information.