Hey Doctor Toxic.
This raises and interesting question. Your chemical sense would be very bad at recognizing someone/something from an image would it not?
It would be amazing at identifying a person you have "tasted" before. Holograms and traditional disguises would be nearly useless against you. But matching a soaking wet person to their image on a tv screen. This is difficult. Like seeing a picture of a rose and then describing it's smell.
Am I seeing this correctly?
Sorry, life and paizo down time.
Think I am all caught up.
Anyone need anything?
I'll get something posted later today.
A good rule of thumb is don't post twice before everyone has posted once. It is not a hard and fast rule as conversations will make a mockery of it. And sometimes you realize you wanted to say more/add something and it has been an hour since you posted.
I try not to let folks get too far ahead but I will fail at this so I also count on all of you to lend a hand here. Let me know if someone gets a lead on the group and we will play catch-up.
Does that help, or were you hoping for something more formal?
Time is also important. If it's been over a day, or two on the weekend, I'll usually feel okay to post to keep up momentum.
Nice..lol
Advance incoming in a post or two. You might want to think about it if it is something you want to think about. I am available for questions as always.
Can super powers advance or is it only the things listed in SWADE?
A couple of weeks ago I asked if we were going to get additional SPP in addition to Advances (AFAIK, there's no "Extra SPP" Edge), but got no answer (not criticizing, just commenting, I know PWGM is dealing with lots of things, even just in this game).
Instead of Advances AND SPP, you could make up an Edge that grants 2-3 extra SPP - but that would probably always be the best Edge option, so probably better to dole out the SPP separately (if at all).
So...???
Karma and Psiclops
Actually this question has already been answered
From the Campaign page, setting rules.
"Rising stars. You will reach level IV if you live long enough. Progression criteria are secret."
That said if you all want to go to an edge based system then we can.
Prospective more super power edge{needs better name}: Once per rank, Seasoned. Gain X super power points.
I'll have to do the math to get a a good X value but if this is the unanimous choice then we can change.
Just pointing out that by changing to the edge based system you are gaining control of when you gain power points but you are now paying a price, the edge, for something that is free under the currant regime.
Let me know what the verdict is.
Karma and Psiclops
Actually this question has already been answered....
Sorry, that came across as more jerk-like than intended. My bad.
I'm leaning to the secret progression, as we have enough to do with our advances. I'm assuming that you have it set up to be evenly spread through the game.
Greetings all, the first session went pretty well I think.
So business first.
~Bennies reset to you normal amount.
~Any gear you want to keep please note it on your character sheet.
~Remember to note your Advance on your sheet. Something like {spoiler=Advances} Novice 1: xxx. 2: xxx etc {/spoiler} would be perfect but anything that clearly shows your progression will work. The goal is top allow easy character audits and more importantly to roll the character back to an earlier version when/if that is needed. If you are saving up the advance for some reason just note it as saved and then change it for the actual advance when you take it.
~Reminder on Advancements: Remember you can only increase an attribute once per rank and if you choose not to raise an attribute during a given rank you cannot make up the missed opportunity later. If for example you do not raise an attribute as a novice you cannot raise two attributes while you are seasoned.
~And finally, what day is it? Canonically the year is 2004 but that date is not set in shaving cream much less stone. Lets say anyone who proposes a month, day, and year gets a chance at a benny. Once the entries are in I will randomly select one and the winner takes the prize.
And that is business done. So what do you think? Is this working so far?
What went right and what needs some work?
From my POV:
Right. I think the map actually helped. Thanks to Karma for that. I usually dislike maps as they tend to draw focus to what is depicted rather that allow for the thousands of things that are in the space bur didn't make it onto the map. I am also really enjoying your characters and look forward to what will happen as you interact and your identities solidify.
Needs work. I feel some frustration when details are missed in descriptions. For example the sound distortion in the escape craft. Folks were speaking without acknowledging the difficulty/inability to hear. This could just be a matter of me not being clear. If that is the case then advice is VERY welcome.
So let me know what you think.
And finally, what day is it? Canonically the year is 2004 but that date is not set in shaving cream much less stone. Lets say anyone who proposes a month, day, and year gets a chance at a benny. Once the entries are in I will randomly select one and the winner takes the prize.
And that is business done. So what do you think? Is this working so far?
What went right and what needs some work?From my POV:
Right. I think the map actually helped. Thanks to Karma for that. I usually dislike maps as they tend to draw focus to what is depicted rather that allow for the thousands of things that are in the space bur didn't make it onto the map. I am also really enjoying your characters and look forward to what will happen as you interact and your identities solidify.Needs work. I feel some frustration when details are missed in descriptions. For example the sound distortion in the escape craft. Folks were speaking without...
2004 is perfectly fine by me. The dawn of social media is an excellent metaphor for the apocalypse. How about October 27.
What went right? The most important thing, which is GM involvement, helping players and continuously pushing the action.
What needs work? My humble personal opinion is that Savage Worlds action card system is a slog in pbp. And with super powers and goram movement and terrain considerations and so forth, well, there was about a month in real time when my PC was just moving from one area to the next. That was rough. All the state-based modifiers were a bit much. It's fine in tactical combat but outside of that it's just annoying. No solutions from me here.
Re: talking on the shuttle. It wasn't obvious to me that it was important that we had a hard time hearing or talking, so it did not occur to me to rp it.
2004 is perfectly fine by me. The dawn of social media is an excellent metaphor for the apocalypse. How about October 27.
What went right? The most important thing, which is GM involvement, helping players and continuously pushing the action.
What needs work? My humble personal opinion is that Savage Worlds action card system is a slog in pbp. And with super powers and goram movement and terrain considerations and so forth, well, there was about a month in real time when my PC was just moving from one area to the next. That was rough. All the state-based modifiers were a bit much. It's fine in tactical combat but outside of that it's just annoying. No solutions from me here.
Re: talking on the shuttle. It wasn't obvious to me that it was important that we had a hard time hearing or talking, so it did not occur to me to rp it.
Yes I agree on the slog.... And I agree that there doesn't seem to be a way around it.
6-7 players and a large map means someone is going to be on the wrong side of the board when the shooting starts. Unfortunately SW leans on the cards with Jokers and several card related edges/hindrances baked pretty deep into the system. I will keep thinking on this but if anyone has suggestions up to and including changing the rule system for the game I am open to them.
Re: talking. Hmmmm I will strive to be more clear in the future. My bad.
Re: talking. Hmmmm I will strive to be more clear in the future. My bad.
You were very clear that it was happening, but not why. To me it didn't rise above setting ambiance.
This is once again just my opinion, but to me, SW tried to reinvent the wheel with initiative, and maybe the random chaos works for tabletop - dunno, never have - but here it works against flow, as players try to anticipate what days they will be called upon to contribute. If I go first in one round and last in the next, it could be 6-10 days between posts. That'll kill your game fast. But you're right, that's so baked into the system I don't know what you'd do about it.
Re: talking. Hmmmm I will strive to be more clear in the future. My bad.You were very clear that it was happening, but not why. To me it didn't rise above setting ambiance.
This is once again just my opinion, but to me, SW tried to reinvent the wheel with initiative, and maybe the random chaos works for tabletop - dunno, never have - but here it works against flow, as players try to anticipate what days they will be called upon to contribute. If I go first in one round and last in the next, it could be 6-10 days between posts. That'll kill your game fast. But you're right, that's so baked into the system I don't know what you'd do about it.
It definitely works in table top but I see your point. Do you think edges like Quick (redraw any card below 6) or Level Headed/advanced (draw more cards and choose) will/can mitigate this or is this just to intractable an issue?
Should we consider changing game systems?
It definitely works in table top but I see your point. Do you think edges like Quick (redraw any card below 6) or Level Headed/advanced (draw more cards and choose) will/can mitigate this or is this just to intractable an issue?
Should we consider changing game systems?
No and No. Let's stay with it and re-assess at the end of the next session - my $.02.
Okay, my advance is raising Smarts to d10 so that I can raise skills cheaper next time.
I also switched my decay power from area to range. I'll benny it when I need to spray acid at an area. My entangle and poison are still areas.
I totally forgot about the note in the Campaign page about how SPP would work (have I mentioned I have a really bad memory? I can't remember...). I'm totally fine with the "secret" method.
Ditto on the importance of the sound. Just a suggestion, if you mention something that changes the environment drastically, you should say in what way it changes the environment.
Regarding action cards - that is such a core part of the SW system that I'd be loathe to try to change it. There *has* to be some way to order the events that happen in a turn, so any initiative system is still going to have the same problems in PbP. And I'd quit the game if we change to another RP system.
Dave - I *think* PWGM said that we could post in any order after the cards are drawn, and that they would sort it out later. So while that gets rid of your objection about waiting for your card to come up, there'd still be a long wait after your post until everyone else has posted. That's just a combination of many players and PbP.
ALL - FWIW, I once heard this advice about Advancements : EASE. Each Rank, take two Edges ('E'), advance one Attribute ('A'), and advance one Skill ('S'), but not necessarily in that order. That reminds you to advance an Attribute so you don't waste it, and emphasizes the importance of Edges in making your PC unique.
I think Karma will raise her vigor die to d8.
I'm fine with the proposed phased progression from Level 3 Super Powers to level 4, at GM's discretion. I'm going to want to see how the adventure activities are distributed between combat and other RP situations like doing research or scouting, etc. Karma's weak on fighting skills but that was partly by design as she relies more on getting the drop using her ghosting ability than in-your-face moves.
I'm thinking of adding the Assassin edge when I can, but I want to see if she will be able to use it often enough to make it worth taking.
I'm glad the map was a help. I've always role-played with maps and figures (going back to 1st ed. DnD) and I value the ability to know where everyone is. SW has a lot of rules that depend on knowing exactly where a character is relative to enemies and friends, such as throwing a grenade or an area effect, etc.
The map doesn't take the place of imagination, however, so GM and player descriptions are important to fill in details, set the mood, etc.
I'm fine with how things are going. I'm mostly having to learn to read posts carefully as I missed some details mostly by being rushed and skimming posts.
I'm fine with 2004. Maybe the 9/11 attack on the trade centers was actually part of the first stage of the alien invasion. Maybe we could get a few timeline events that alter history as we know it to account for things that happened differently with the presence of supers. Is there a rationale for why people started to develop super powers? Some event perhaps or maybe it was latent in DNA until some cosmic rays irradiated everyone with [fill in fictional particle name]. It might be nice to know a short roster of active super villains in addition to the ones we have been introduced to and maybe some of their notable successes and failures.
I like the RP that players are demonstrating and looking forward to more personal interactions not possible in the middle of a battle. We still barely know each other's names and know nothing about backgrounds and what each brings to the fight.
Play-by-post has inherent limitations that will slow down the action, but I think it's better to just deal with it rather than trying to change the rules to accommodate. Maybe some creative person will come up with an RPG that is designed to be played on PBP that will overcome the delays that tend to happen when players and GM need to exchange information to resolve actions.
Karma - I know you're not really very familiar with SW, so just a heads-up : raising your Vigor will increase your natural Toughness by +1.
And I'm doing the same : Vigor to d8. There are some Edges I want that require that.
PWGM - I have some questions about how SWADE Core Edges interact with superpowers. For instance, Marksman removes 2 points of penalties from Shooting or Throwing, or adds +1. Shooting is a Ranged Attack, and I have a Ranged Attack superpower - can I take Marksman and apply it to my attack, even tho the Skill is Focus?
Dave is increasing Spirit to d8.
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While I have enjoyed the game and the characters are amazing, as is the GMing, I am not too sure about carrying on with Ah-Rekhmire. Much of the time I am unsure of how the system works and I feel like I am slowing down an already slow (but awesome!) game.
Anyway, I am on the fence and will think it over more before coming to a conclusive decision...but know it has nothing to do with anyone but me.
Thanks
DocTox: Have you ever seen Monsters vs Aliens? HIGHLY recommend.
There's a goo creature named BOB and he does much the same thing. I'm imagining DocTox as an evil BOB and I'm loving the headcannon!
BOB crossed with Dr. Cockroach! Mwa-ha-ha!
But we'll definite need more SPP before any of us can get a headcannon!
While I have enjoyed the game and the characters are amazing, as is the GMing, I am not too sure about carrying on with Ah-Rekhmire. Much of the time I am unsure of how the system works and I feel like I am slowing down an already slow (but awesome!) game.
Anyway, I am on the fence and will think it over more before coming to a conclusive decision...but know it has nothing to do with anyone but me.
Thanks
I hope you won't leave the game for fear you are spoiling anyone's fun. Every PBP game potentially involves people not completely familiar with the system and people who play the game should always be tolerant of that.
I've played a few SW games but it's a complex system and it takes a while to master. I'd feel free to post questions in the discussion section when you have them. The GM and the more experienced players can always give suggestions.
While I have enjoyed the game and the characters are amazing, as is the GMing, I am not too sure about carrying on with Ah-Rekhmire. Much of the time I am unsure of how the system works and I feel like I am slowing down an already slow (but awesome!) game.
Anyway, I am on the fence and will think it over more before coming to a conclusive decision...but know it has nothing to do with anyone but me.
Thanks
I would hate to see you go. I do NOT think you are slowing down the game and I am confident things will speed up as we go on.
That said A-H is a rules complex character. I am very open to a redesign or retiring A-H and bringing in someone different.
Re: Game date. I actually dislike 2004. A nebulous present-ish is my preferred year. It advoids the "Did that exist in 2004?" question. I doubt the year will ever really matter in game anyway. In asking for a date I was more interested in what month you chose as that tells me what season we are looking at.
PWGM - I have some questions about how SWADE Core Edges interact with superpowers. For instance, Marksman removes 2 points of penalties from Shooting or Throwing, or adds +1. Shooting is a Ranged Attack, and I have a Ranged Attack superpower - can I take Marksman and apply it to my attack, even tho the Skill is Focus?
Well Marksman is a Seasoned edge so this is not a pressing issue, but I am still in the no camp on this one. If you want to tweak Psiclops to use shooting for their RA then there is no problem. But using Focus is a choice, you get to use one skill to do multiple things but you loose access to the edges that apply to other skills.
In fact If I am looking at things correctly you could drop Focus to d8 and gain Shooting at d8 which will qualify you for Marksman at character generation and then Marksman could replace Professional. Then you could use the Advance you just earned to raise Shooting to a d10. If you can tolerate a d6 focus then you could have shooting d12 plus marksman
It would mean a small delay on the Vigor increase but getting the Marksman edge might be more useful.
I like April. It means that winter's snows are far away.
So too, I'm going to bank my advance. I don't think I've done enough to really get a feel for what I'm lacking in that needs to be bolstered, or what I'm doing well enough that warrants additional resources.
Cool. Just remember to note the advance on you sheet. I tend to forget these things.
Everyone
Black and Hensley Meats comes with 1 complication free Upgrade. Please choose one from SPC3 pg 24-25. Some choices make more sense than others but I am sure we can work something out. If nothing appeals I am open to most suggestions.
Remember to note how you spend the extra power points if you choose to accept the lair. The goal is to keep it simple to see where your points have been spent in case something comes up.
Everyone
Black and Hensley Meats comes with 1 complication free Upgrade. Please choose one from SPC3 pg 24-25. Some choices make more sense than others but I am sure we can work something out. If nothing appeals I am open to most suggestions.Remember to note how you spend the extra power points if you choose to accept the lair. The goal is to keep it simple to see where your points have been spent in case something comes up.
Duh, Teleporter?
The choice of upgrade will need to be unanimous and the detailed description of the lair will be dependent on what you choose. So I am afraid things are on hold until you decide what you want.
As always I am ever-present if needed.
PS. Strong choice Dave.
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Thank you all for your words of support. I really like the idea of Ah-Rekhmire and would like to continue to play him, but will need some help when I make silly errors!!
As to leveling up, I will need some guidance as to what I can and cannot do. I was thinking of making a few changes, but I also would like to hear what the rest of you might think...
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The choice of upgrade will need to be unanimous and the detailed description of the lair will be dependent on what you choose. So I am afraid things are on hold until you decide what you want.
As always I am ever-present if needed.
PS. Strong choice Dave.
It is a strong choice. Also complicated and I have some questions:
1) Does it teleport us back?
a) It kinda seems like it does, but it also needs to roll to do that. Might be wrong.
2) It seems like since we're on an island, it would behoove us to have better than just the straight d10 Electronics that it comes with.
To that end, would it be worth it to have a Minion that controls it? If this was a "Group Minion" could/would we all pitch in, like, 1SPP or so to have it be a good one?
If the teleporter can't bring us back (or needs a person to stay behind to operate it), and there isn't a "remote control" "return us" button on a small box we can take with us, I would vote for Vehicles. We *will* need a way to get to our target locations...
Imagine - I suppose I could give up 1 precious SPP towards a Minion, if PWGM would allow us to up his Electronics skill by one die per SPP. With 7 of us, that would give him a d12+1 or so.
PWGM - the way I read it, the teleporter itself doesn't have a d10 Electronics, but it sounds like the Upgrade comes with the option of an automated system with d10 Electronics. How would that automated system work when we want to come back?
PWGM - regarding the extra 5 SPP, are we still limited to the cap of 15 SPP per power? If so, will that change in the future as we get more SPP? I just want to double-check that we can use SPP to remove Limitations to our powers, as long as the total doesn't go over 15 (or whatever it is now)?
Toxic immediately says "Science lab", then looks at the others who said teleporter and vehicles. Obviously they didn't remember that science will take you farther than any teleporter. He sighs, knowing that he'll have to accede to those without advanced degrees.
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Reading teleporter, I think it means that the automated system is included if you don't have anybody using it. But if not, I'll throw into the minion. And I expect that most V'sori compounds are shielded against teleporting directly in.
From Dr. D's dialogue, I deduce that they can detect our driving. If we can't get jammers then we shouldn't get vehicles. I'd also prefer a hidden entrance before getting vehicles.
PWGM - do you want us to post the changes we are making to our PC's with the 5 SPP?
Can you confirm or deny that we would know whether V'Sori bases are teleportation-shielded, and whether or not they can track our cars? Or should we make Knowledge rolls in-game?
I'm changing Agility to d8 instead of Vigor.
Ok, catch up time.
Date: Dave proffers 27 October while Imagine offers April. Unless they clarify an exact date I am going with the 13th. Any other contenders?
Ah-Rekhmire I'm happy to walk you through the Advance process and provide advice on the lair provided power-points.
Lair Upgrade
~Vehicles: Doctor Toxic. I think I was unclear again. From what I can find the good doctor mentioned things in the air. My apologies.
Psiclops The V'sori, and Mayor Perez/Socorp, try to create the illusion of a fully surveilled society but most of it is theater. Higher class neighborhoods are well covered with cameras and Beachead is very tightly sewn up. Middle/working class areas less so and any camera that shows up in Southpoint quickly succumbs to rapid disassembly syndrome.
Specifically in terns of vehicles. Plates are required and must be registered with the police. Any state plate or even a custom plate will do so long as the cameras can read it. However most of the time no one is watching the camera feeds. That said if the V'sori have a special reason to take an interest then the cameras can be manned (expert systems and tireless drones help here) and orbital surveillance can monitor the movements of anything larger than a cat in a given area. But this takes resources away from other projects and is only done on special occasions. Like say when the last class A supervillain makes a public appearance.
Teleporter
~Return. I am only seeing send language in the description. It appears the teleporter is one way you would need another teleporter at the destination to return. That said the upgrade can be taken multiple times. Perhaps some kind of return function could be made available as a future upgrade.
~Automation. I'm seeing that the system has a d10 electronics for sending you to the right place. A minion/other PC/NPC could do it as well using their electronics skill if they choose but as I read this it is a fully automated system. No one need be left behind.
~Shielding. You do not know. You have heard of nullifier fields that block all meta powers. And you are pretty sure that any large teleporter like this is reverse-engineered meta-human mad science. This is not off the shelf tech. The best non-meta science could do pre-invasion was limited use of quantum entanglement for communication and power transfer.
Psiclops No need to post the changes. Just make the changes to your character sheet and Identify, perhaps in the same place you are recording Advances where the points came from like "5pp Lair" and then what you spent it on. And yes you are still limited by the 15pp/power cap. That will change but not yet. You can ndefinately use the Lair PP's to remove limitations so long as the final version of the power is under the 15point cap.
Minion Take a close look at the minion power. The base minion comes with 5pts of superpowers. 5 points of Super skill gives a d12 electronics.
Dave is willing to ride his hoverboard back from the Shake Shack after the Teleporter gets him there.
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She calls on her ever-line. "Hey mom, can you make sure to have some hot nachos ready? I might be home soon. With friends."
If mom is anywhere within 1 mile, right now some mexican-blend cheese is meeting a fiery death on a corn-chip graveyard.
What district does your mother live in? What economic class is she? Is she Atlantean, Hybrid, or Human?
Catherine Jane "Red" Grant, a normal old woman--if such a beasts exists--lives in the Tenements of Southpoint, but, unlike most of her neighbors, she does so by choice. Broken and shattered not only in the normal way that Luthor tends to do to people around him, but also from her own inability to protect her little girl from the industrial-scale genetic experimentation done to her, she found solace in a place where most palace had left.
When it seemed that Red could find no solace amongst any kingdom of Man or alien, she found the detritus of Southpoint to be just the sort of balm she needed. At last, she found a populous more wretched than herself.
The wastage around her brought up a new strength she did not know she had. She went about her hardships not unlike mythical Sisyphus, returning, but willingly, to the rock that will never know satisfaction.
In time the gangland grist came to know the kind-but-unflappable old woman and left her alone. In return she was known to provide food or a bolt hole when one had no other options.
ALL - so if the teleporter is one-way, it's pretty useless to us. We'd have to bank the Upgrade until we get another (who knows when), in order to make it two-way. And until then, we'd have NO means of transportation.
I opt for Vehicles. Like I said, we've *got* to be able to get to our mission sites...
PWGM - if a villain doesn't have an alter-ego, I'm guessing they're off-grid and can't register their vehicle to get a license plate? So we're just going to have to hope that V'Sori surveillance misses us...
Sorry for the flip-flopping, I've got 2 brand new PC's and I'm mixing them up...I'm changing Vigor to d8.
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I also only saw sending language on the teleporter, but every other teleporter in fiction (Star Trek, DC) has both a send and return function, or else, yes, it is quite useless. (Also, it seems reasonable to would be obvious that if it can send it can return, and that if you needed to take it twice it would have said so explicitly.)
Yeah, if there is no return, then, yes, we would find outselves at the mission with need of transport. If the transporter leaves us in need of other transport, then we are in need of other transport with it or without it.
Given the headaches involved in using vehicles all the time, I'd rather we did just bank it, if two Upgrades are needed for send and return. I guess that means we'd just hire rides until then?
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I've been busy with end of term tasks like grading, so I've not had time to read in detail all the above posts, so sorry if I ask something that has been explained already.
Regarding the Lair upgrade, I'd support focusing on Advanced Firewalls first, followed by the command center. We can probably get around without a dedicated vehicle for a few missions, but it would be good if our lair is not going to be surveilled, hacked, or otherwise interfered with. Having information on what's going on is also very important.
If we need a vehicle, is there anyone with the skills/powers to hotwire a vehicle from off the street? That would prevent the need for licensing and being in the V'sori's database. If we can disguise ourselves, we can take what public transportation is available.
After a few missions, we can decide how much help a dedicated vehicle would be. Several of us can fly (although Karma doesn't move faster than she can move on the ground) and several of us can disguise ourselves and/or go invisible.
That said, I'm willing to go along with the consensus if no one else thinks the firewall/com center is as important as I do.
There has been some mention of 5 PP that sounds like an addition to our advance. Can that be clarified?
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I'm conscious of not cheesing my abilities too much, but I can always convince some random bystander to either drive us or give/loan us their vehicle outright.
In theory we could hijack one car to get there and another to get back. If our lair is in Southpoint there wouldn't even be anything unusual about stolen cars going in and out.
Yeah, using stolen cars to commit crimes...its all the rage in Milwaukee. :)
I've been busy with end of term tasks like grading, so I've not had time to read in detail all the above posts, so sorry if I ask something that has been explained already.
Regarding the Lair upgrade, I'd support focusing on Advanced Firewalls first, followed by the command center. We can probably get around without a dedicated vehicle for a few missions, but it would be good if our lair is not going to be surveilled, hacked, or otherwise interfered with. Having information on what's going on is also very important.
If we need a vehicle, is there anyone with the skills/powers to hotwire a vehicle from off the street? That would prevent the need for licensing and being in the V'sori's database. If we can disguise ourselves, we can take what public transportation is available.
After a few missions, we can decide how much help a dedicated vehicle would be. Several of us can fly (although Karma doesn't move faster than she can move on the ground) and several of us can disguise ourselves and/or go invisible.
That said, I'm willing to go along with the consensus if no one else thinks the firewall/com center is as important as I do.
There has been some mention of 5 PP that sounds like an addition to our advance. Can that be clarified?
Yes the 5pp is a one-time bonus from gaining the Lair (SPC3 pg 22. Advantage:Powerful). It is separate from and unrelated to the advance.