5E Adventure's in Midgard – North (Reaver's Spring)

Game Master Tareth

It's an interesting question. Oddly I wouldn't call the DnD based magic systems (PF/5E/Name your clone) very abstract at all. Every spell is defined to the letter. Range, targets, AoE. Components, Schools, etc, etc. Now a lot of that definition is necessary due to the overall ruleset and needing to define how the spell works mechanically with squares on a map. I guess for me having all of that definition can often stifle creativity or make a person lazy. It's much easier to just write "I cast Magic Missile" and roll to hit verses "I weave together the elemental forces of fire, air and spirit. Bind them with a pinch of powdered cave lizard liver and squid eyes and unleash three stinging orbs of aetheric energy upon the goblin."

For whatever reason, I almost always feel like I am breaking the rules when I do the latter in a DnD game. Even more so as a player than a GM.

And of course the same spell mechanically operates the same way regardless of who is casting it. A cleric casting Detect Magic gets the same 'effect' as a wizard or bard despite three very different 'sources` or backgrounds for doing so. Thus it is up to the player or GM to narrate the differences or different effects/schools/training. I'm not sure you can get around that in a system like PF/5E.

I think the best way I've seen a Vancian type magic system made more interesting both mechanically and narrativly is with DCC. Where each time you cast the spell, the results can be different depending on the roll. Of course the player or GM are still the key in making those results and the magic itself come alive or tie together witb the actual character. And each spell entry is a page or two long so a lot more work on the game creators part. But it's fun, especially if the wizard fails and turns his arm into a tentacle or the cleric pisses off his god and is basically hosed until his does suitable penance.

I think if you really want to focus on that kind of narrative connection and creativity, then trying some of the narrative focused systems might be helpful. FATE where a PCs aspects would likely define the how or why they can work magic and then a few stunts might define the type or actual spells. Or Forged in the Dark games where everything is pretty much left up to the player and GM within a few rough boundaries.

Or I'm totally misunderstanding your question and you're just thinking about this more from a world building perspective in which case, yes, there are lots of other ways to think about it beyond vanilla DnD. What you decribed would work just fine. Or as you said Kobold Press, and others, have some great options.

But really, I guess it still all comes down to the group and how much effort they can or want to put toward it.

Well, a large part of it was me griping, and your point about all of the spell casting classes having the spells all work the same despite supposedly different sources of power is one of my big gripes with how magic in the editions of DnD/PF that I've played is handled.

I should have been in bed hours ago, and I'm starting to feel it. I'll try typing up my thoughts on this after some sleep. I will just say that my main goal, at least when I posted this idea in a recruitment thread, was to get some feed back on it working that way in the narrative of the game given the setting. Here it was just to get y'all's thoughts on it in general.

Oh, and I would love to play a game of Fate with a GM who really knows the system. I've run a game, but the system is different enough in how it works that I really don't know what I'm doing. A large part of it is probably me overthinking it.

Forged in the Dark is based off of Blades in the Dark, right?

Forged in the Dark is based off of Blades in the Dark, right?

Yep. There are a whole bunch of FitD/BitD spinoffs now. Band of Blades (Think Glen Cook's Black Company series), Scum and Villainy (Space), Fistful of Darkness (Weird West), and Wicked Ones (Play the Monsters, Protect your Dungeon) just to name a few that I've looked at and would like to run one of these days. No straight fantasy there, but I'm sure it exists. I think Dungeon World was a precursor to FitD. They are similar in some ways and both are more narrative and collaborative world building focused than 5E/PF.

I've GM'd a little bit of FATE, but both games have been in space oriented settings. Battletech, based on my own cobbled together rules for mechs and mech combat and a Traveler type game. I haven't tried running FATE for a more traditional fantasy setting.

And I second Ingryd's suggestion to explore the source material a bit. The Dying Earth stories are certainly a good read and could provide a bit more context into the way original DnD magic might have been envisioned. Although in the stories there were only supposed to be a hundred or so 'known' spells and most of the forumla's were forgotten, lost to time, or horded by a handful of mages. Finding a lost spell formula was a truly important discovery for any magician. There weren't any magic shops stocked with scrolls or lists of hundreds(thousands?) of spells for a caster type to choose from.

You could also take a look at some of the stuff by Free League. Forbidden Lands or Symbaroum. Both are fantasy settings, but using their own system. They also publish The One Ring which is for Tolkien's Middle Earth. I've got TOR 2E, but haven't played it yet. I think they've done an good job of capturing the low magic, long fight against the shadow feel of middle earth. I do wish they had bumped the time frame more into the early or middle third age rather than only a few decades before the war of the ring, but that's what all my old MERP materials are for I guess. :) I'd love to start a TOR game set around 1500 TA, but alas, time has been limited recently. (As another side note, I do think TOR is a better system than their 5E conversion ruleset, Adventures in Middle Earth. That just...didn't work...after a while.)

Anyway, all just my two cents and food for thought.

Thanks! That is a lot of food there. :D

I do want to point out that Dungeon World is a Powered by the Apocalypse game. It's a different system based off of the Apocalypse World game. It's a different beast, though I can see the similarities. And yeah, there are lot of FitD games. I played in one that was anime magical girl one.

I'll definitely be taking a look at the Free League stuff when I get a chance. Forbidden Lands seemed right up one of my GMs' alley when I first ran across it. I haven't looked at Symbaroum and The One Ring, yet.

I've got more to say, but hunger is kinda distracting and making it a little difficult to string a coherent post together.

if you're referring to me being drunk or tired

Oh no, I meant me. :) Sorry if I offended.

No worries. I wasn't offended at all. We're all good friends here, I think.

Is the Dying Earth series considered post-modern literature?

I got the sense that yes, it was, and that was why I could never get into it after attempting to read the first book of the series. I really wanted to like it and was so excited to read it. But I really hate slogging through post-modernism like needless sex appeal etc.

Was I wrong to abandon it? Is there something more there?

If it's a post-modernist work, then I'm going to be with mishima on this one. As a philosophy, it's one that I vehemently disagree with, and I am not a fan of works influenced by the movement. I'm the guy that loves the Legend of Drizzt series and thinks its at its best when you have the gang going on adventures and shenanigans ensue. I love the fight in the Verbeeg cave in the Crystal Shard, and the chase in Memnon in the Halfling's Gem is just fun.

Maybe I'm naive, but I'd rather be entertained by a tale of heroism than have the joy sucked out of me by a story that wallows in needless nihilism and hedonism while telling me I'm an idiot for believing that people on the whole want to be good, honest people, rather than self-serving sociopaths.

I think that's one reason I have so much trouble playing anything but a good character. I don't like being selfish and being evil is just not in my nature. And the one time I did play an evil character outside of Way of the Wicked was when I was playing a character who was in the middle of a crisis of faith and wondering if being a hellknight in service to Thrune was really all it cracked up to be.

I love a good evil Character. I have several, one of which was a 2e Wizard who was a former Paladin(Got an Opposite alignment curse placed on him) and Used his special sword a Antimagic field generator and slew wizards in mage duels to take there spells.

Find out later the sword allows its welder to ignore Antimagic fields and the like. SLew Mages right and left until I became a powerful Wizard in his own right. One which summoned demons and 'cleansed' a planet of sentient life

Oh, don't get me wrong. I love me a well-written magnificent bastard or a tragic hero myself. Heck, I even like straight up villains with no redeeming qualities. I just don't play them well. Although I seem to do fine when I'm GMing or writing.

Your ex-paladin wizard does sound like a fun guy. Did he turn into the campaign boss?

like needless sex appeal etc.

I don't even understand this statement. All sex appeal is needed.

Maybe I'm naive, but I'd rather be entertained by a tale of heroism than have the joy sucked out of me by a story that wallows in needless nihilism and hedonism while telling me I'm an idiot for believing that people on the whole want to be good, honest people, rather than self-serving sociopaths.

I also think this.

Right now the bookcase to my direct left groans under the weight of almost every Conan book made. If I want escapism, I want escapism. I don't want to be punched in the face and told I'm a bad person and -then- told I'm an extra bad person for not liking being told that I'm a bad person.

Yeah, if I play a evil character, it's because I'm good, but in the looong-term view. That is to say, I'll say that the ends justify the means.

Scramsax wrote:

like needless sex appeal etc.

I don't even understand this statement. All sex appeal is needed.

Define sex appeal, cause I want to be sure we're using the same definition.

Also, I find it kinda funny how Arianna's going all nightmare bard on the guard and Luthael is like, "welp, you kids have fun. I'm heading back to the house."

Some examples:

Because Hollywood wants to try something new and do something called "make money" they just announced that Red Sonya will keep her chainmail bikini.

Despite StarFire being one of the more popular DC heroes, the book I am not starfire is only liked by 3% of reviewers.

For something from history, back when video game makers had no market and they really, really needed people to buy their stuff, often there were such things like Curse of the Azure Bonds that slid in a little cleavage to make sure that an extra million units would move.

Sorry, I've never read Dying Earth, but ain't that what we're talking about?

Hey now, Curse of the Azure Bonds is in a different league. There is a husband and wife cracking jokes.

Yeah he ended up being a multi campaign world-spanning villain as he sought to acquire all the knowledge f the worlds and once he got it on a world and then scorched earth it to raise the dead as his thralls and use Devils, Demons and other evil outsiders to control them or he would erase them from existence

Ah, okay then.

First, I am the kind of guy that actually things about what people wear under their armor. It's not that I'm immune to Teh Sexah or whatever. (Quite the opposite, in fact.) I am however the kind of guy that will watch Wonder Woman and then nitpick how the writers butchered the Greek Pantheon and how the plane they have doing snap rolls for Mr. Male-lead McHandsome-face to drop his bomb would rip its wings off and promptly crash, or that it would have sunk within 30 seconds of ditching.

So when I see the cover art of Azure Bonds, I see a poor woman who's gotta be chaffing. When I see Red Sonja's chain-kini, I see a woman who's also chaffing, and in a much more sensitive spot. When I see "I am Not Starfire" I see a poorly written power fantasy where the protagonist never works for her powers or her happy ending and she's always right, even though she's a spoiled brat, that I am glad I never read based on the reviews and what I've seen online.

Second, different men find different things sexy. I'm not going to go into what revs my engine, but I will say that I like some mystery and some things to be left to the imagination. A woman in a slinky dress that covers her from the neck down is sexier to me than the same woman in a little-black number with no back, almost no length, and a v-neck to the navel. You are free to disagree with me.

Third, sex appeal has it's place, but if it's going to show up, it's gotta be consistent about it. Random sex appeal where it is neither needed nor wanted is not appealing to me as a member of the audience. It's like with anything else in writing. You have to consider the context and if it fits with the rest of the story. If it doesn't fit with how your universe works, then it's not needed. It's a distraction that weakens your writing and world building at best or is a smoke screen for poor writing at worst.

Sex appeal has it's place, but I'm not going to like something just because some buxom beauty's boobs are bobbing in my face with naught but the wind between them and my eyes.

Yeah he ended up being a multi campaign world-spanning villain as he sought to acquire all the knowledge f the worlds and once he got it on a world and then scorched earth it to raise the dead as his thralls and use Devils, Demons and other evil outsiders to control them or he would erase them from existence

That sounds like you had a really fun group. I've been lucky to have a couple of groups to game with for a little while now.

I feel I should mention that the whole sex appeal thing is me being mostly silly. I'm just having some fun with Atlas.

Is the Dying Earth series considered post-modern literature?

I got the sense that yes, it was, and that was why I could never get into it after attempting to read the first book of the series. I really wanted to like it and was so excited to read it. But I really hate slogging through post-modernism like needless sex appeal etc.

Was I wrong to abandon it? Is there something more there?

Not sure if Dying Earth could be call postmodern since he wrote the initial stories while sailing with the merchant marine during WW2. My understanding is the postmodern stuff didn't really arrive until the late 50's or 60's. But then, I'm no means an expert on such things.

I just enjoy Vance for his use of language, especially vocabulary, and crafting of sentences and dialog. How he can give a person a good sense of a culture/civilization in a few sentences rather than pages and pages of dry exposition. And I'd say many of his characters like Cugel and others are pretty in line with the attitudes of the typical D&D adventuring party of the 70's through the 90's. While Cugel could definitely be categorized as a pretty typical 'murderhobo' many of his escapades were just part accident or trying to survive and get ahead in the world. Typical adventurer. (Unlike a lot of today's 'grim dark' fantasy where everyone just seems to be an a$$ who deserves to die just because.)

Sure, there's some 'commentary' which one might expect from a writer having just gone through the Depression and WW2 and the following early Cold War period. But I guess I don't see the stories as overly preachy or pushing a major agenda for the agendas sake. It all seemed to fit the actual story or conflict or premise, unlike some of the stuff I've tossed aside that's coming out nowadays where it is clearly just there to hammer me with some particular agenda one way or another.

But like anything artistic, everyone has their own opinions and experiences with it, so I totally get that it might not be to your liking. That's what is great about today, there's so much more fantasy and SF to choose from, both new and old. (Unlike when I was growing up and there were like 3 shelves of SF/F in Waldenbooks and most of that was Tolkien or Lewis.)

My tastes these days tend to run a little older, so CAS, Glen Cook, HPL, Chandler, Hammett, Tolkien, Harold Lamb, Howard, Leiber, Hillerman, Asimov, even a bit of Louis L'amore or Ernest Haycock or other random western (I inherited a couple of hundred paperback westerns from my grandfather, so I occasionally just grab one for fun.), just to name a few. Along with a mix of 'newer' writers like Erickson, Kay, deLint, Leckie, Sebastian de Castell, Alastair Reynolds, Ken Liu and a bunch of others I can't remember off the top of my head.

Don't forget Fahfdr and Greymouser

From what I understand, the post-modernist movement has its roots in the progressive movements of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. I didn't know the first stories had been drafted in the 40's.

I don't mind commentary on society at the time of the writing, but it's gotta fit into the setting and the story. That's something a lot of modern productions seem to have forgotten. There's some good stuff out there if you know where to look. The Dota and Dragon Age series on Netflix are really good. The Dragon Prince is a worthy successor to Avatar: The Last Airbender. There's several good anime series airing now. My Hero Academia is great for scratching that super hero itch.

But when you constantly shoehorn in personal agendas, not even necessarily political ones, into a story, it suffers and people can tell if you don't enjoy or love the work you put into it. Characters and stories suffer because you write by checklist instead of letting the characters tell you the story. Classics, at least genre classics, become classics because they do something great. They tell great stories, they ask great questions, they shove great characters into situations and watch as the chaos unfolds, or they show us a great world. I don't think there's much of anything put out by the big studios in the past five years or even the past decade that will be a classic. Dune, is an exception. It's a work of love done by a man that obviously cares about the source material.

The Star Wars trilogy that Disney put out? Hardly.

The MCU after Phase 3? I couldn't be bothered to see them.

I love a good story. I want to be sucked into a world so thoroughly that the part of my brain that is constantly over-analyzing everything shuts off and I can enjoy the show. I think that's why I keep coming back to PbP games. It's a collaborative form of story telling where we can really get into characters and plots. It's fun, and I love seeing everyone's stories as they unfold.

Anyway, that's just my two cents on the matter.

On a completely different note, can anyone believe that I was the first one to make this an alias?

My Favorite ANime right now is Eminence in SHadow! Others I like to watch are Mushuko Tensei, Shield Hero, BLack Summoner, Bofuri, Grace of GOds, Arifeta, Beast Tamer was good. Deathmarch into a Parallel World Rapsody and several others all have been good

Bofuri is just fun to watch. I'm waiting on the dub for the second season.

I've been debating Eminence in Shadow, I've heard things about it that make me wonder if I'll like it or not.

I haven't seen Grace of Gods, Mushuko Tensei, and most of Black Summoner. I agree the rest is pretty good, though I felt like Deathmarch was weak on the plot.

I'm waiting for Demon Slayer and My Hero Academia to come out with new episodes. Those two are really good.

If you're after guilty pleasures, Danmachi is good.

Same Bofuri is just Wholesome Fun

Also Goblin SLayer Season 2 should be coming out this year

Calling it now, Beryl and Meryl are ghouls.

Two things.

1. If Beryl and Meryl are ghouls, what does that make the good Father Tavis?

2. Arianna is going to exercise the cat demon from that rug. GM, I hope you have a side quest ready for this. ;)

EDIT: By the way, I'm still here, I'm not sure how to proceed at this point. I do want Arianna to have a conversation with Luthael about how he connects with Khors. I don't see Arianna's clan as being particularly religious, but it's kinda hard not to start following a god, or goddess in Arianna's case, when you meet one and spend a little time traveling with them.

'Tavis' is an obvious anagram for 'vista', as in 'hasta la vista'...words for goodbye the Spanish Inquisition would whisper to their victims. Did you see him get all that salt? Only the Spanish Armada can secure the trade routes necessary for that much salt without all the tax levies and such. In conclusion, that makes Father Tavis Spanish, and therefore a space alien from another dimension where Spain actually exists.

Forsooth! This sounds like an inquisition of such dastardly unexpectedness it'll rival the...

Elvish Inquisition!

On an unrelated note, I learned that rivel is a word and it means to wrinkle or shrivel.

Sometimes typos can help you learn new words.

Something I realized a few days ago, but kept forgetting to post here about.

Those centaurs were infected as well. Wherever they went was probably doomed thanks to that. I bet that's what Luthael's vision was about.

Arianna, now, don't get freaked out by this but...you're a bard.

You know the spell Prestidigitation. It says in the description: "You instantaneously clean or soil an object no larger than 1 cubic foot."

With a few castings you could clean the rug and make it smell like lylacs.

You would think that, but while I have not had the same history you have had with our dear DM, I have enough to know that this has turned into a meme of epic proportions. There will be blood, sweat, tears, and possibly a few lives sacrificed to purify this contaminated carpet of cacophilic cat feces and urine. Just simply casting a spell will not end the fell feline's spectral campaign of vile and vulgar vandalism on this poor benighted rug of transport.

Nay, we will need endurance and perseverance to overcome this unhousebroken pestilence of uncouth, domesticated felis catus defiling this, our valiant rug of aerial conveyance!

That and I'm sure as sold on this Narg Nasty Six thing as Scram is, we're gonna need to hold him down before we can even start on making the Nasty Rug the Lilacs on Zephyrs Carpet.

Ingryd could care less, she sits way to far from it to notice.

The only reason I love 'Narg Nasty Six' so much is the following, when asked the most important 'why'?:

Deception: 1d20 - 1 ⇒ (11) - 1 = 10

Insight: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (3) + 6 = 9
Believing in the words of the thief, con-halfling, and all around scoundrel.

Insight!: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (3) + 6 = 9
"Ah. Very good, very clever. Well done," Aterro comments on the halfling's choosing of names.

XD

It was actually DM though who christened the 'Nasty Rug'.

Which means Arianna's doomed to failure. This will be fun! :P

DM, is Invictusol's house more than a mile from where Aterro/Ingryd are in town? Sounds like maybe so if it was going to take half a day to walk out here. Asking because of the mind link.

Scramsax: Yes, it is closer to 2 or 3 miles out of town. Not a half a day really, then again, given the old priests slow, toddling walk, it might be for him.

On a different note, is anyone keeping up with Kobold Press's Black Flag project and the Deep Magic Vol. 2 Kickstarter?

As much as I love KP's Midgard (built over decades from pieced together splats) and some of their adventures, I've always been underwhelmed by their mechanics. The races are neat but that's about it for me. Their spells and sub-classes are pretty clunky imo. There's some gems there though, not denying it...but pretty rare gems. And granted a lot of it is converted from 3e/PF and wedged into 5e, so maybe if Black Flag is a clean start it will be better.

In general, not really excited to see all the 5e clones popping up. I have a fear its going to make things more inconsistent DM to DM and bloated.

I've gone ahead and signed up for the BF playtest (whatever that ends up being) just to see what they decide to do, but I haven't gone in on DM2. To be honest, I'm in agreement with Scramsax. KP has done some great world building and I do enjoy a lot of the Midgard background stuff. The world is way more interesting to me than vanilla Forgotten Realms or Golarion, but their mechanics are generally just okay. And often the new options are not enough to justify the fairly high cost of the various books.

Making things worse is my generally deteriorating attitude towards 5E. Even before the whole OGL fiasco, I wasn't planning to buy into the next iteration.

I think I mentioned this earlier, but my tastes are generally moving in the opposite direction of 5E and PF/PF2 (PF2, I absolutely do not like). Instead I find myself wanting to run games with much simpler mechanics like the Forged in the Dark games, FATE, or even the much more fun (IMHO) and random DCC for that more old school standard fantasy appeal. Give me fewer fiddly mechanics and more narrative opportunities, especially for play by post games. I just need to free up some time so I can fire up one or more of these on the boards sometime in the next few months.

@Scramsax: Yeah, that is an issue. On the other hand, we may see something else take the crown.

I'm hopeful, but I do wonder how this is going to shake out eventually.

@Tareth: Actually, I think I'm right there with you. I just know 5e and PF1e better than any other system I have access to.

If you like lighter systems, have you heard of Cogent?

Arianna: I haven't heard of that. I'll have to check it out.

Cogent is Shadoversitys game

Yep. I keep meaning to try it out, but haven't gotten around to it. Looking at it again, it's pretty much what I was working on, just better.

Ingryd and Aterro, sorry I ran out of time and creative energy today. Will bump you all forward tomorrow.

Sorry RL game last night and second shift tonight. Post tomorrow

cheers

fire up one or more of these on the boards sometime in the next few months

I'll be keeping my eye out for that. *thumbsup with eye on it*

What kind of genre are you thinking?

Quote:

fire up one or more of these on the boards sometime in the next few months

I'll be keeping my eye out for that. *thumbsup with eye on it*

What kind of genre are you thinking?

I'm not sure yet. My minds been wandering about a bit, but I've been leaning toward some Weird West (Fistfull of Darkness). Wicked Ones where the PC's found a dungeon and try to survive and thrive against other factions and meddling adventurers. A return to Middle Earth using The One Ring system. Or a slightly adjusted Band of Blades to better work with PbP. I've also got my FATE Battletech hack which I'd love to reboot at some point. Finally, there is Scum and Villiany which is essentially Firefly/Traveller sci-fi.

So way too many choices. But it looks like some time might be freeing up as a couple of games I'm in have just shut down unexpectedly. So I guess I'll have to actually narrow it down a bit, and see what others are interested in playing. :)