The Fallen Sons and Daughters of Heaven Pathfinder Campaign

Game Master Divinitus

It may be a good idea to go back through the feindish powers and calculate the base saves. These are generally something like either 10+ 1/2 HD + stat, or 10 + spell level (and spell-like's) + stat.

It does not make sense that someone that buys a feindish power taken from a CR 5 creature would have a low DC, while someone buying a feindish power (of the same cost) from a high CR creature would have a high DC. (This should possibly also apply to damage)

For example:

The CR 7 nymph ability Blinding Beauty has a DC of 21. The basic nymph has a Cha bonus of +7. That makes Blinding Beauty a base of 14 (equal to a 4th level spell). Add your own Cha.

The CR 16 Annihilator Robot ability Plasma Lance has a DC of 22 and does 20d6 points of damage. The AR has 20 HD. That gives the Plasma Lance a base of 1d6 damage per HD and a base DC of 10 +1/2 HD +Int modifier. A 13th level character should then have 13d6 damage and a DC of 16 + int modifier.

@fnord...

Those DC's/stats are for the creatures. They are all modified by HD and a Modifier(most often Cha or Con).

Obviously, if you take them, you have to recalculate both the DC and the effects.
It's a given. Same as the stats would change if said Nymph would wear a Headband of Charisma, or the Annihilator Robot took Class Levels.

So imho it's not "a good idea" to calculate those things, its mandatory.

You and I are in agreement in that Mordred, how many others considered that?

I think you and I can also agree that there would be a group of individuals that were looking at this based on what they could get from a higher CR creature.

honestly, it never occured to me that someone would do that kind of thing.

I agree that there is a possibility, but I figured anybody who has a good enough understanding of the game to create a customised tristalt as entry would also have enough understanding of the underlying system to know how to handle these things.

So yep, if someone still missed doing that for whatever reason: They should.
Total agreement there. Just thought it's not very likely someone did.

If someone missed something like that they are likely to have way too low DCs anyway and they might even be so low as to be irrelevant. I doubt we'll encounter many monsters with less than 20+ saves. One interesting things to note is that stuff like spell focus apply to save dc of SLAs in PF, here is an example. The GM might be generous enough to allow it to count for SU abilities too.

@fnord...

Those DC's/stats are for the creatures. They are all modified by HD and a Modifier(most often Cha or Con).

Obviously, if you take them, you have to recalculate both the DC and the effects.
It's a given. Same as the stats would change if said Nymph would wear a Headband of Charisma, or the Annihilator Robot took Class Levels.

So imho it's not "a good idea" to calculate those things, its mandatory.

You would think so, but at least for Evangelize the GM told me to keep the DCs as written in the statblock.

They'd be pretty s$$# if not since I only have a 12 Cha. Or better if I was allowed to use Wis instead.

Hold on a second.

Supernatural abilities always have a DC of 10+HD/2+Cha unless stated otherwise. (Even if they would normally not allow a save, this is used in things like Dimensional Grappler to calculate "imaginary saves").

Spell-like abilities have a DC of 10+Spell level+Cha unless stated otherwise.

Ex abilities (such as poison) are usually DC 10+HD/2+Con, but always state their save stat.

@Rynjin: Maybe that's a perk of spending FP on abilities—you get to match the monster's base stat? It's quite troubling, though, because many identical abilities show up on multiple monsters with different saves, and I'd rather not have to track those separately.

@Rynjin I agree with thunderbeard, it seems like too much. Isn't that what happens at any stage of character development? Especially in this game, where you are selecting RP, EP, classes, templates, and FP.

At each point you make decisions and not everything you pick is off your best stat. Sometimes you have to decide if a mediocre ability is sitll worth it.

I don't see "Evangelize" on the spread sheet. I did find this ability on a Deimavigga.

18 HD creature with a 28 charisma. That gives a base ability of 10+9+9=DC 28. It gives the ability to emulate several spells. Calm emotions is a 2nd level spell, so it should be 10+2+9 for DC 21.

This effectively allows you to ignore the 24 cap on abilities related to FP.

If we were allowed to keep the creature stats, I think there might be a move to dump charisma and load up on SLA/SU's that give bonuses.

To me it seems like it is in line with strength casting.

By the way, how much did the GM say it was going to cost you in FP?

Okay folks, I'm back! I'm in the process of skimming through the thread now. My internet has been down and my buddy, Benighted Regent, has had a broken arm and I haven't wanted to bother him. Still, this post is a long time coming, so let's go over some basic stuff.

The first thing that I wanted to address Johnny...Panic. Based on several of the posts I have read of yours, warnings from a legion of people (Some of which have not even posted on this thread, some of which I personally know,), your number of dropped profiles and such, I believe it best to inform you that you will not be selected for either table. I realize that this may make people angry or come off as a crass move, but I would rather state this now so that all parties can let the situation rest rather than wait until the day when you do not get picked and then there is a long rage post that will inevitably spark an online flame war. This way, I save everyone time and keep things from getting heated on the messageboards.

That rather unpleasant topic aside, here are a few things that I wanted to discuss.

I will be posting a redone character creation process later tonight that features updated numerical values, errata, and a completely new system of working on your Legendary Items, since my explanations were rather poor in regards to those in retrospect. Expect to see this new set of guidelines in the Campaign Info tab by midnight EST at the latest.

I will post the FP costs of any Fiendish Power abilities that I assign for people in the document.

I'm probably going to see if Benighted Regent will let me borrow his internet router for the night so that I can catch up on all these posts! I will be looking through the thread to see if there is any relevant information that needs answering. After that, I will reply to some private messages. Hopefully I can have everyone's questions answered tonight.

Heeeeey, good to see you back! ^^ Sariel's mostly done, but yeah, I'll gladly tweak as needed if we've got some updated numbers.

@DM: Have you seen The Spreadsheet that's been kicking around? It's not WoG, but it's an attempt (by someone? not really sure whom at this point) to consolidate the info we've got.

@Rynjin I agree with thunderbeard, it seems like too much. Isn't that what happens at any stage of character development? Especially in this game, where you are selecting RP, EP, classes, templates, and FP.

At each point you make decisions and not everything you pick is off your best stat. Sometimes you have to decide if a mediocre ability is sitll worth it.

I don't see "Evangelize" on the spread sheet. I did find this ability on a Deimavigga.

** spoiler omitted **...

That's the one.

From the PM:

"Evangelization is 12 FP, due to numerous at-will powers, several of which are pretty powerful, considering that they will be using the standard monster ability save DCs."

The main issue is that ALL Devil/Demon/Etc. abilities are based off Cha. So if you want any decent abilities, you need to be Cha based. So it's not just a matter of "Not everything will be based off your best stat" and more one of "NOTHING will be based off your best stat. Or even 2nd best stat (Int).".

That particular ability is kinda core to what I want to do outside of combat (and make no mistake, it ONLY works outside of combat) so I'd be kinda bummed if the DC of everything suddenly dropped by 11.

@DM: Have you seen The Spreadsheet that's been kicking around? It's not WoG, but it's an attempt (by someone? not really sure whom at this point) to consolidate the info we've got.

I made it in the first place, a few people have added to it, like the practice fight list and the formatting on the fiendish pool page.

The main issue is that ALL Devil/Demon/Etc. abilities are based off Cha. So if you want any decent abilities, you need to be Cha based. So it's not just a matter of "Not everything will be based off your best stat" and more one of "NOTHING will be based off your best stat. Or even 2nd best stat (Int).".

That particular ability is kinda core to what I want to do outside of combat (and make no mistake, it ONLY works outside of combat) so I'd be kinda bummed if the DC of everything suddenly dropped by 11.

It's not quite that. All Supernatural/Spell-Like Abilities are based on Cha, period, because Charisma represents innate magical ability. DC=10+HD/2+Cha, unless explicitly specified otherwise, is the DC for every Su ability. That's been in the rules ever since 2e.

That said, it sounds like the DC for Evangelization specifically includes the base monster's saves. For the rest of us, though, setting it to the base monster's saves would be a massive reason not to take them, and basically mean any abilities we bought with FP would be useless in a few levels as their saves don't scale.

Since Evangelization acts like spells, and you cast spells, maybe there's a way to tie it to your wisdom? Which would patch everything up nicely.

While I will not say that "all things are X" because there's bound to be exceptions. There is no universal rule that states a supernatural ability is based off of the "best" stat. Normally the ability states what it's based on.

In this case Charisma.

also, there is no reason to use Cha then.

Just focus on Int and get a ton of skill points, make it your primary caster stat regardless of class with that one feat, and enjoy.

It's a deliberate design choice.

Int=>Skill Points.
Wis=>Will Save.
Cha=>Su/Sp-abilities.

So, in other words, if you get to base your DC's on Int because thats the Stat you want to use, then I want Skill Points for my Cha.

Uhm....undead? I'll be using Charisma.

Also, with 3 extra skill points per level, and triple gestalt, I'm not sure arguing for skill points is the way to go.

Also, given the fact that our domains are based on whatever mental stat, I'm sure he won't have a problem with us switching around. Although this is not even close to official.

also, there is no reason to use Cha then.

Just focus on Int and get a ton of skill points, make it your primary caster stat regardless of class with that one feat, and enjoy.

It's a deliberate design choice.

Int=>Skill Points.
Wis=>Will Save.
Cha=>Su/Sp-abilities.

So, in other words, if you get to base your DC's on Int because thats the Stat you want to use, then I want Skill Points for my Cha.

Considering all the X to Y shenanigans going on in this thread, not sure you have a leg to stand on.

We have Wis to attack/damage, Str to casting, Cha to all saves and HP (and if you go Oracle, to Initiative and AC as well...), and a whole host of other things available and taken.

Kind of an odd place to draw a line in the sand, here.

Edit: Actually, I'm pretty sure there IS a 3PP feat that lets you use Cha for skill points, even.

might i point out, I am a cleric.

Okay?

Maybe I should just break down and take 2 levels of antipaladin just to get the CHA to saves. Everyone elses' are so high, I feel like if I don't I'm just gonna get wrecked when the power level is adjusted to combat them.

Sorry, that is in regard to a page back when someone mentioned not having a cleric.

@Talma, well, your fort/will are fairly decent. Personally I think it is a bit gamey to focus on Cha, (for fiendish powers), then try and add it to EVERYTHING else. One reason I shied from that.

Yeah, I've been avoiding doing too much of it (I was kinda forced to with going CHA because otherwise my DCs would be only like 18-20, which most things would only fail on like 4 or below, and I'd end up not being able to use 3-4 of my most interesting abilities), I'm just kinda worried at how often people's saves are all 25-35, and that I'll just start autofailing things if anything actually has a DC high enough to be a danger to someone with saves like that.

not drawing a line in the sand about this.

My problem is that for everything else, there is either a Feat Tax, or a FP Tax to get it to work.
I'm totally fine if you pick up a Feat to swap it over.

But once we open the door of "Lets swap things over just because, for free", it turns into a flood gate. Why would someone need to take the Oracle Revelation to use Cha instead of Dex for AC? Why can't my Monk use INT instead of WIS? Why can't the Cleric just base his Channel Energy on WIS, too?...

things go crazy then. Thats what I meant to say. Personally I'm fine with all alterations, as long as SOME kind of tax is paid.

@Tamlakos, but on the other hand, you picked up Elemental Subtype, making you immune to flanking, critical hits, and sneak attack...+ over 500 HP. Your saves may be a weakness, but you do have significant staying power in the more martial aspects of the character.

Then again, I am still debating whether I want to keep cleric or not :P

Suppose you guys are right, thanks for the advice :)

Anyway, I answered a few questions and posted the updated character creation rules. I am about to log off of Paizo for the night.

Before I do, however, let me state something that I found amusing. Some people think that immunity to energy types means invulnerability. Well, does anyone know how Flamestrike works? What about Hellfire? Apply that principle to many creatures that you will encounter and that immunity means 50% less damage. Not that it isn't useful though, because damage is going to be insane on both sides of this campaign. It is not just the be-all, end-all of powers.

I decided to make a change. Inquisitor fits the whole "Ex divine hitman" theme MUCH better anyway ahah.

"Now, I am NOT going to say 'you can only select this or this' as abilities for the items. Instead, I will simply ask that you look at the various Minor Artifacts and submit an idea on what you want your items to do. This helps make the items feel more 'artifact-y' and allows for things that more accurately reflect what you want it to do, as opposed to it feeling like a slew of copy-pasted abilities."

Earlier you mentioned using the equivalent of +6 arms/armor as base items before applying powers. Is this still true?

When you ask us to not to just have "copy-pasted abilities," are you referring to normal enchantments, or to legendary item abilities? So for example, I took the price of a +6 weapon, used that as a benchmark in enchanting a magical mask, then applied the legendary abilities. Would any of these need to change according to the rules you posted?

Thanks!

Anyway, I answered a few questions and posted the updated character creation rules. I am about to log off of Paizo for the night.

Can anyone tell what changes were made to the character creation rules? There doesn't seem to be any noticeable differences.

Anyway, I answered a few questions and posted the updated character creation rules. I am about to log off of Paizo for the night.

Before I do, however, let me state something that I found amusing. Some people think that immunity to energy types means invulnerability. Well, does anyone know how Flamestrike works? What about Hellfire? Apply that principle to many creatures that you will encounter and that immunity means 50% less damage. Not that it isn't useful though, because damage is going to be insane on both sides of this campaign. It is not just the be-all, end-all of powers.

On that note I kinda feel like switching my theme over to ice, mostly for winter witch, though if others have suggestions for that theme I would be happy to listen. Sadly winter witch gives up a level of casting progression which hurts a lot, so I'm not completely sure about doing the switch... Though thinking about it further it's really only one ability I want out of that class, I wonder how much that costs in FP...

@Oyzar: there's also a winter witch archetype of regular witch. Check it out?

@Oyzar: there's also a winter witch archetype of regular witch. Check it out?

That's a prerequisite of the prestige class ;)

Take the first level of Winter Witch by multiclassing off of a different class?

So you'd end up as Witch 11/Winter Witch 10/Something 20/Something 19 or some combination of that sort. You get the idea.

On that note I kinda feel like switching my theme over to ice, mostly for winter witch, though if others have suggestions for that theme I would be happy to listen. Sadly winter witch gives up a level of casting progression which hurts a lot, so I'm not completely sure about doing the switch... Though thinking about it further it's really only one ability I want out of that class, I wonder how much that costs in FP...

Oh, I think sculpting ice and snow should be pretty cheap. :)

The Fallen Herald wrote:

Anyway, I answered a few questions and posted the updated character creation rules. I am about to log off of Paizo for the night.

Can anyone tell what changes were made to the character creation rules? There doesn't seem to be any noticeable differences.

It's in the campaign info tab, minor changes.

It was unearthly cold I was referring to.

Since we're getting rebuild rules. I wanted to ask the very experienced players in this thread(rednal, monkeygod, thunderbeard, tenro ect. Though anyone can chime in of course :)) If anyone had ideas to better align my build with my concept.

Theme is madness. And more specifically, being driven insane, and becoming a perversion of a once infinitely wise being. In my backstory I've envisioned myself as sort of the Archangel of wisdom. A large, spell and combat proficient Angel with a CR around 20-23. So as a fallen, I want to be way more flavorful, but still relevant in combat.

As of right now, I'm built as a Antipaladin 13// Dark tapestry Oracle 13// Eldritch Godling 1/ Clever Godling 3/ Eldritch Scion magus 5. With the Dread Devourer, Broken soul, and Alacritous template.

Now I'm married to none of these Ideas thematically, though I do like the dark tapestry oracle. It seems that godlings are going to be a major downstroke so let me explain, I took clever godling for the charisma mod as base for saves, representing Itherael's otherworldly presence and unnerving nature. Eldritch godling I took because of broken soul, the template gives a gaze attack which is very thematic and cool, but imparts a -10 on concentration checks, which is overcome by the innate nature of casting that the EG has granting immunity from the need to make concentration checks. I also like the magic is magic ascendancy, but that is neither here nor there.

I will be taking madness as my free domain, and I want to focus on debuffing and melee strength infused with ability damage/drain and negative level generation.

Any thoughts? All I thought as an alternative would be Insanity Patron Witch...

I'd actually say a class with another domain would be fun (trickery)

I find it difficult to reconcile any madness-based concept with the fact that our characters are supposed to be lawful - madness issues are almost universally chaotic, and against what Hell promotes. Don't get me wrong here - I love the Dark Tapestry, and I've played a DT Oracle myself. It's just... pure, alien chaos sounds like the sort of thing Asmodeus (and, by extension, all of Hell) would oppose.

The closest idea I have to what fits this campaign is a sort of 'pressure' concept - trying to make people afraid and get them to submit to Hell instead of opposing it. In other words, they might still be cowering in the corner because of horrific visions... but it's power they're afraid of, not mind-breaking insanity. In the case of 'wisdom', it could be a twisted interpretation where the wisest of all beings have submitted to Hell - and few things are more frightening than smart people willingly signing up for the infernal side.

have you never heard the chaos theory? All chaos is ordered, all order is chaos. (not quite right but w/e)

I find chaos/law alignments laughable, by its very nature, a chaotic alignment does not oppose Lawful in itself. A chaotic alignment merely, at worst, "Does what it wants to do". While this DOES clash with lawful "These are the rules" It doesn't have to all the time.

Maybe the chaotic character simply WANTS to follow the "rules" and rarely breaks them when it conveniences them. Sure, he might get the rare eye look or wrist slap, but as long as he plays along most of the time it shouldn't be a problem (to most).

all this said, mad/perversion =/ chaotic.

Also a workable interpretation - I suppose it really depends on how the GM plans to run Hell's lawfulness.

So suppose I'm mad but am the fallen of knowledge or secrets or some such.

Also, is anyone doing the Fallen of Fear?

here is something that may help you

I get a VERY Tzeentch vibe from what you say you want. Maybe read up on Tzeentch a bit for ideas??

Has anyone asked about getting class abilities with FP?

I'm not doing a Fallen of Fear, but I will have a few themes of fear.
Most from Black Seraph Glare, the Black Seraph Style feats, Intimidate, and Shatter Defenses.

But no. Not focused on fear.
I think you're good to go.

Has anyone asked about getting class abilities with FP?

honestly, this is one of those things I would stay away from. Classes to me are a bit sacred.I like to think of class abilities as an example of dedication/time spent on an Ideal/training. Something not even powerful gods/goddesses can give.

here is something that may help you

I get a VERY Tzeentch vibe from what you say you want. Maybe read up on Tzeentch a bit for ideas??

This is supercool. Mechanically though. Thinking, Div or Illusion wizard, Mindchemist, Loremaster, Investigator, Monk, and considering the Psychic Creature and Savant Templates. For Fallen of Knowledge. Otherwise maybe bard in there, Aegis? Psion... I don't know.

for the divination/manipulation side of things....

Fateweaver

isn't there a template or power that gives two heads?....

as for classes? dunno haha. At first thought, I would say an arcane caster, probably arcanist, and a divination caster of some sorts. Followed by a martial class (such as fighter). For a basis to start on, then expand into other classes from their.

Another note on an Idea for your character if Chaotic is a must, perhaps you have some long, perhaps millinea long, plan of corrupting one of the planes of hell into a more abyssal image. So you are pretending to be lawful for the time.