Here's some various ways I could help with the weakpoints you noted.
Obviously can't do them right now, but I thought we got a hint that we might level up soon awhile back.
With my SoM progression I could pick up the following at level 6:
I do have Diplomacy and Bluff Trained, my Social Grace gets progression at level 5, so I could boost one by +4 if you'd like me to.
Also, I get another Social talent at 5, and could pick up this:
or this:
Given I get 9 skill ranks per level, if you need me to migrate away from her current sneaky scout build, she can probably address one or two of the team's weaknesses.
I received a PM asking me to come back and be explicit. I came back, scanned through the messages, and found the call remarkably easy.
We had a player agree that the point of the game is for everyone to have fun, for everyone to enjoy themselves, who then stated clearly that despite this there is no responsibility on that player to do anything other than what that player feels is right for their character. Ever.
As for enabling said player, there were multiple times when I would come home from work, check the forums, and he had made multiple action posts, all already resolved by the GM, during the day. He was having his selfish play promoted and supported before anyone could offer alternate paths or complain.
As another aspect of empowering the player, the GM has chosen to semi-solo them in a way that he explicitly said we would likely interact with that character again over time, and in a way that potentially prevents us from properly advancing the plot without said character.
Yes, I see nothing here that looks like it will be fun and entertaining for me. I hope I'm wrong, and that you all manage to have a rip-roaring good time, but I'm done. I have negative reasons to keep myself in a place where I can expect to see this uncooperative, selfish style of play dropped in my face again, and I certainly have no reason to look forward to working through a plot which won't complete without that play.
I do hope you can enjoy yourselves, because that's the whole point. But I'm done.
You know I agree with you on some of those points, so fair enough if you would prefer to leave Sileven.
Hope to see you around the boards.
Best,
Grenz
Same as Grenz here,
Best of luck Sileven.
That is unfortunate to hear Sil, but I appreciate your candidness. My ability to try and make everyone feel welcome in my games sometimes needs work, I agree, but suffice to say that as with everything else, it is a work in progress. Perhaps we will meet again in another game. Good fortune on your journeys around the boards.
For a moment I thought it was "Ghoul 3" damage taken and that two more ghouls were about to pop up. :P
Just wait…
Hey Khamul and Idun,
It was not my intention at all, and Grenz is already spread as thin as can be as far as multiclassing goes but... If/Whenever we level up, should I consider start taking Warpriest levels (I know it is not the optimal choice, but perhaps Sacred Fist)? Because we are seriously lacking in the Divine department...
I would also consider Cleric, but I don't think it is a good idea completely relegating Grenz's unarmed combat ability to second place.
Theater of the Mind was fine back in 1st and 2nd edition. But 3ed introduced AoO's, Reach and flanking; it's just too difficult to figure out who gets what attacks and bonuses without a map... It also makes area effects and movement much easier to figure and well.
Hey Khamul and Idun,
It was not my intention at all, and Grenz is already spread as thin as can be as far as multiclassing goes but... If/Whenever we level up, should I consider start taking Warpriest levels (I know it is not the optimal choice, but perhaps Sacred Fist)? Because we are seriously lacking in the Divine department...
I would also consider Cleric, but I don't think it is a good idea completely relegating Grenz's unarmed combat ability to second place.
I'm really not sure what's going to happen here. @ShadowBloodmoon was figuring continuing with 4 was fine, but Sileven is out. Which brings the recruitment question back. If I had to add a "perfect" 4th pc for this party (Grenz, Khamul, Idun), I'd have 3 elements in mind - 1)healing, 2) knowledge & face skills and 3) utility spells. That suggests (to me) bard, skald, witch, psychic (discipline dependent) or a shaman (they are really MAD though).
Khamul, I think we can perhaps cross off some of those from the list? My thoughts:
- Healing: Yeah... This is an issue I think;
- Knowledge skills: I think between the three of us, we have some of these covered (Idun seems to have pretty decent knowledges), so I think if someone new would come in, he/she could have a few (one or two) good knowledge skills, but would not have to necessarily be dedicated to it?
- Face skills: Same regarding Idun. I have never played a Vigilante, but looking at Idun's skills, we should be ok?
- Utility spells agreed, we are low on buffs and utility.
If I would have to think about what would make sense mechanically, I would say a divine casting class, line an Oracle or a Cleric.
However, if I would go the Sacred Fist way (is there some sort of Cleric Archetype that uses martial arts?), that could be the 'divine side' of our group, and it may actually make sense game wise, since Grenz has ties to the church in Sandpoint. And in that case, I would say we could use a Wizard for a mix of ranged damage, buff/utility, and overall arcane goodness :D
WRT to skills, at 4th level, I'd estimate to meet skill challenges, you'd need something like a +8 (4ranks +3 trained +1 ability score) to be effective (make 50+% or so of checks... ID a CR4 and get one of it's special abilities is a DC 19).
On that scale, as a party, we don't pass any of the knowledge skills or any of the face skills (Diplo, bluff, Intimidate, Sense Motive)... I'd further note that no one has K Arcana, Planes or Dungeoneering. I'm confident that K Arcana is pretty important to the plot judging from what we've seen so far.
Agreed on the Arcana, Planes and Dungeoneering - someone coming in could focus on those.
Regarding skill challenges - if we focus more on certain skills, we can make by I think. Sometimes you will fail some, but hey that's an adventurer's life ;)
It's that time of year again. Merry Christmas to all and a Happy New Year. I am going on holidays, starting the 19th, and expect to be back for Jan 4th 2022. Posting may be sporadic; feel free to bot me if needed.
Honestly, I'm not too worried about our deficiencies. You mentioned +8 as a benchmark to pass, and, yes, my current abilities do not surpass that, but presuming the benchmark becomes +9 at next level, and I spend Social Grace to get +4 and max out my skill ranks, I can easily surpass that.
Also, Grenz, if you want to go warpriest, go for it. But if you want to keep being the best punch man you can be, maxing out your BaB does usually seem the best way to go.
If you've got a feat to spare rather than a class level, you could dip into spheres to pick up:
"Basic Magic Training
Prerequisite: No casting class feature.
Benefit: Choose a sphere of magic. You gain access to this basic sphere. You gain an effective caster level of 1, a magic skill bonus of 1, a magic skill defense of 12, and a spell pool of 1. You may also select a casting tradition when you gain this feat. You are considered to possess the casting class feature, but do not gain the +2 magic talents a caster gains for their 1st level in a casting class.
If you later gain levels in a class granting the casting class feature, exchange this feat for the Extra Magic Talent feat.
Special: For retraining purposes, having the casting class feature counts as Basic Magic Training."
If you took this and picked the Life Sphere, this would allow you to no UMD necessary use any healing magic wands. The Spheres version of CLW works exactly the same I believe, if you're just buying the out of the box version.
I've got alchemical healing coming online as an option at level 6, but if we want something level five, this could do.
Neither of these options cover things like Curses and such, but, as I understand it, the Warpriest option would need a lot of levels before it covers that either.
Other useful 1 feat dip if we're worried about identifying monsters. You also get 5 free skill ranks in Stealth if you take this.
"Scout
As a swift action, you may identify a creature’s weaknesses (DC 10 + creature’s CR) as described under the Knowledge skill, but may substitute a Perception check for the appropriate Knowledge check at a -5 penalty. This only reveals the target’s weaknesses, or lack thereof, (such as damage reduction types and vulnerabilities), and does not reveal any additional information about the target. Once you have succeeded at a scout attempt or Knowledge check against a target, any talents or effects that require you to scout a target may be used against the target for the next 24 hours; after this period you must successfully use the scout ability against the target again to continue benefiting from related effects."
Combine this with my "-Yellow Warpaint: +5 Competence Bonus on Perception, +1 per 4 ranks. " And I think we've got a potent identification combo.
Now, can't grab this and healing, but it's an option, and also frees up my stealth skill ranks for spending elsewhere.
It's that time of year again. Merry Christmas to all and a Happy New Year. I am going on holidays, starting the 19th, and expect to be back for Jan 4th 2022. Posting may be sporadic; feel free to bot me if needed.
Enjoy the holidays Khamul! Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.!
@Idun: I knew you had something up your sleeve ;) I will mull over my options - not very familiar with Spheres of Power, so I tend to stay away from it. Will stat out the Sacred Fist, see how it looks like. I think I can also just keep the chassis I have now, and take only cleric levels from here on - would make me a much stronger divine character (maybe less of a frontliner though).
Indeed, merry Christmas. :)
Firstly, Happy Holidays everyone! Secondly:
Theater of the Mind was fine back in 1st and 2nd edition. But 3ed introduced AoO's, Reach and flanking; it's just too difficult to figure out who gets what attacks and bonuses without a map... It also makes area effects and movement much easier to figure and well.
We can discuss this ad nauseum but suffice to say that in playing multiple systems (Pathfinder1, DnD5 and Savage Rifts currently, don't even ask how many I have played in my whole life), a lot can be said for the gritty realism of not knowing everything that is going on around you in the middle of a fight. In order to combat (pun fully intended) the rift between player knowledge and character combat experience, one of the things that is pretty much assumed is that a character will always do what they can to avoid AoOs, so they are basically written out of the game unless the story specifically calls out for it, and it makes sense (no drinking a potion while you are engaged in a sword fight). As for reach and flanking, those are pretty much story elements too. if you have a reach weapon, you are going to do your best to stay at reach, if you want to flank, you only have to make sure your ally has the same idea. Area affects hit a number of targets based on how big the area of effect is and movement, well, you can either have the GM tell you that you can reach a certain place, or you can play with zones. Either way, though, I realize there are more who like the tactical play of maps and measuring, and so I continue to use them as well. That being said, I am working on the map for the ghoul outbreak now.
Third, as for recruiting another, I would rather adjust the encounters and such at this point, considering the history of recruiting for this game. However, I know it is not such a big thing in Pathfinder as it was in DnD, but hirelings are great for covering your bases. Sandpoint is home to a lot of people, many of whom have the skills your team is lacking in. While they won't be top notch, they can certainly help.
We can discuss this ad nauseum but suffice to say that in playing multiple systems (Pathfinder1, DnD5 and Savage Rifts currently, don't even ask how many I have played in my whole life)...
How I understand you - and I constantly feel there are millions of stories out there waiting to be explored :D
...a lot can be said for the gritty realism of not knowing everything that is going on around you in the middle of a fight. In order to combat (pun fully intended) the rift between player knowledge and character combat experience, one of the things that is pretty much assumed is that a character will always do what they can to avoid AoOs, so they are basically written out of the game unless the story specifically calls out for it, and it makes sense (no drinking a potion while you are engaged in a sword fight). As for reach and flanking, those are pretty much story elements too. if you have a reach weapon, you are going to do your best to stay at reach, if you want to flank, you only have to make sure your ally has the same idea. Area affects hit a number of targets based on how big the area of effect is and movement, well, you can either have the GM tell you that you can reach a certain place, or you can play with zones. Either way, though, I realize there are more who like the tactical play of maps and measuring, and so I continue to use them as well. That being said, I am working on the map for the ghoul outbreak now.
Your approach to the whole thing is an interesting one - I have always been partial to tactical maps, but one can always change perspectives :D
Third, as for recruiting another, I would rather adjust the encounters and such at this point, considering the history of recruiting for this game. However, I know it is not such a big thing in Pathfinder as it was in DnD, but hirelings are great for covering your bases. Sandpoint is home to a lot of people, many of whom have the skills your team is lacking in. While they won't...
I like everything you just said right here - I find players (myself included) need to re-learn how to play Roleplaying Games (don't want to sound arrogant or anything). The game flows how it needs to flow - I still remember years ago, I was DM for a group taking on Rappan Athuk - of course it went horribly wrong, and they had to run away without looking back. However that was not the end of the story, just the beginning. Fully convinced they could not leave the evil festering unchecked, they decided to establish themselves - build a fortification in the region, attract and hire soldiers, adventurers and artisans, and veritably wage war on the Dungeon of Graves. It was epic.
Unfortunately, I do not see anything remotely similar ever having a chance to happen nowadays? Or perhaps just not in the forums?
Bottom line, I am perfectly fine with the idea of hirelings. Still not decided though - if Grenz will become a religious man, and embark on the path of the Cleric, or the Warpriest :D
I do think this is a wonderful chance for us to try and use all our resources to solve a difficult problem, rather than just depend on raw force of numbers (both in number of players, and the degree of specialization and thus high numbers that affords us).
So, I think perhaps a good compromise would be we stop hassling Khamul about swapping out his spirits all the time, given how we're a three man crew now. :P
Well... Here is the thing for me about spirits and seances and whatnot, and this is not about Khamul, it is about the class itself - to me it feels like the spirits have no relevance to the character whatsoever, they could be... Pieces of equiment, or potions, or different bracelets you put on, or whatever. They are just ‘loadouts’ which are being swapped to basically make a character made of moving parts without really nothing to glue them together?
Also (again personally) I think it feels somewhat invasive on the ‘shtick’ or specialties of other characters, when you are always rolling with a flat +5 to your rolls (+1 guidance +2 spirit Bonus +2 seance boon) - it feels wrong, and even more so because the seances have pre-requisites which are basically being handwaved to simplify play.
So there is no feeling of spirits, or the occult, or anything really. Just a sort of dial which you turn to whatever you want to do well that day - if it is a fighting day, you will fight at Fighter level. Face day? You are up there with the Bard. Scouting day? You match the Rogue. And so forth.
I see where Grenz is going with this and I like the idea. He wants more personality for each spirit rather than simply be used as a toolkit. Khamul, maybe we can play up the spirits a bit more?
My plan is to wait until after Khamul moves for this round, as I'm thinking I'd like to maybe alchemists fire the ghouls coming down the staircase, and I think rumaging around in my backpack next to the ghoul would provoke, so hoping you can take him out.
That's just it. Normally the trickster spirit bonus does not apply to AC, as it's not a D20 roll made by the player. Same thing happens with CMD and the champion spirit bonus; it doesn't apply to CMD as it's not a D20 roll made by the player. However, with the "Players Make All the Rolls" modifications, it becomes a roll by the player. As this makes the spirit more capable, I figure that you should make the call.
The idea behind the bonus is that it messes with your luck, as it is a trickster spirit. Since Defense and CMD now involve rolling, the bonus counts. Plus, since we are using 3d6 v. 1d20, the odds are only slightly more in your favor. The +2 normally would be a flat 10% bonus, whereas now, the odds vary based on the difference between your bonuses and theirs. I'm not going to go into all the math right now, but suffice to say, it evens out.
Ok, I'm moving our conversation over here (to discussion) because it's going to get long, and I'm not sure what's going to happen in character... in the meanwhile, ShadowBloodmoon can post whatever Cai and Habe are giving in response to my Q's
Yeah Idun, I missed that. But we are still left with the immediate problem -if we take out Habe and Cai, we loose the orderlies (cause they have to be in on this)... thus the sanitorium and its patients become a ghoul outbreak, tonight. Depending on how many patients there are, could have major consequences - like an army of "the Master's" ghouls attacking Sandpoint...
@ShadowBloodmoon : How big is this sanitorium? Are we talking 20 patients or 200?
WRT to your moral opposition Idun, do you know how to cure this ghoul disease? If not, taking one (or more) of the patients away from Habe and Cai is just having them change someplace else... where the ghoul won't be contained in a holding cell.
So here's my proposal - assuming Habe/Cai don't let spill a cure for ghoul disease, we take their info and run to Sandpoint. Tomorrow morning, we borrow a bunch of guards from the Sheriff, and come back, to take control of the sanitorium. Maybe bring those 2 acolytes (Gurin and Mirah) to help with disease?
I suppose the size is an important factor. My assumption was that the three of us have enough firepower to put down Habe, Cai, the orderlies, and the ghouls, and then lead any survivors back to town.
As far as you know, around 20 or so, tops. It is not that big.
Hey everyone, just dropping a line to let you know I will be traveling until next Saturday, and hard pressed to do any posting at all. Please feel free to bot me if/as needed!
Welcome back Grenz!
Apologies for the lack of posting - I started with the symptoms on Wednesday, and have been fighting off Covid for the past few days. I will try to post as soon as I am feeling better, since I am not doing much more beyond lying in bed resting anyway…
That’s unfortunate. Here’s hoping for a speedy recovery. Take care of yourself first.
Ok, so what has happened is somewhat different than what I was thinking.
I was thinking "Idun stays to tend to the patients for 2 hours while you two take the captives to jail and get help. Then, you guys travel back for 2 hours, arrive with help, and we try to get the patients taken care of.
Of course, I could be wrong about how long the travel time is, we've been here awhile. :P
That sounds like a good plan to me.
** spoiler omitted **
Yeah, it has to be cast, but us psychic casters are sneaky that way - we get away with thought and emotion components instead...
Hmm.. I have a very dumb plan. But I think it might be entertaining succeed or fail.
As far as a Spheres of Power dip goes, I might suggest also making sure you have a feat or two available for it. Everything scales with caster level, so picking up a Trait via additional traits or doing what I did with feats to get 1/2 of non-casting classes added to caster level would really help you out.
If you'd like to continue being full BaB and mostly use magic mostly as a supplemental and maybe have a few straight magic tricks, I'd consider Mageknight. 1/2 casting progression, but a lot of cool spell point to physical combat tricks. Also Stalwart is an amazing ability.
Basically, if you were considering Paladin or Inquisitor as a mechanically 'I want to keep my to Hit bonus crisp and high and maybe have some other stuff as a bonus', Mageknight is pretty good.
If you were looking to straight up start getting full casting just a few levels late though, SoP doesn't have anything that competes with good old Cleric. All SoP full casters get 1/2 BaB.
There are some 3/4th BaB SoP that get full casting in one specific Sphere of magic, if you wanted to be a specialist, though.
Thx for the advice Idun! I will need to take a look at the Spheres, and decide what seems cooler/more appropriate :)
If you want to go Cleric and SoP just to try something new, there are rules for that.
http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/sphere-cleric
I don’t want to over complicate my first incursion into Spheres of Power :P
I think I like the MageKnight with some thematically appropriate powers/spheres? But I will look into the Sphere Cleric.
Idun, do you know if there is a Spheres of Power module for Herolab?
I do not, I'm not a big fan of character builders so I always do mine by hand.
If you can create your own modules for herolab, I might be able to help. I've been doing a lot with Character Sheet for Any RPG, so I'm knee deep in making auto-maths work correctly.
Although, that assumes you create modules by modifying files and not through the app itself, since I don't have herolab.
Just so everyone is aware, my family got hit hard with Covid this weekend. I was the last to get it and I’m in the middle of fighting it off. Suffice to say that i will try to post as i can, but even this is taking up what energy i have.
Just so everyone is aware, my family got hit hard with Covid this weekend. I was the last to get it and I’m in the middle of fighting it off. Suffice to say that i will try to post as i can, but even this is taking up what energy i have.
Rest up if you need to, we will still be here in a week or two.
Take care of yourself and your family DM ShadowBloodmoon - the game will not go anywhere. Get plenty of rest, and let your body fight it off.
Thanks for letting us know even when it's tough. Best of luck for your recovery.
Thanks everyone! I’m not at full capacity yet, but I am back and getting to work on getting caught up.
Hey everyone, just to let you know I will be traveling from the 29th June to the 9th of July. Should have internet access, but doubt I will have much time for posting. Feel free to bot me ;)