"Necessary Evil" - supervillains save the world!

Game Master ZenFox42

@Zen. Question for you boss.

"Failure on being Stunned or Paralyzed (via superpower or weapons) results in 1 Wound, not Incapacitation"

The reason for this rule was to simplify bookkeeping correct? Folks are up or out with no need for recovery rolls. I am assuming that these "stun wounds" cannot kill extras/folks with only one wound left otherwise they are not exactly non-lethal weapons any more.

This make stun weapons/powers significantly more powerful. Normally stun rods and the like are barely useful vs. high Vigor targets. Even if they blow the initial roll they will recover quickly and be back in the fight. With these things causing wounds a blown roll means long term impairment vs. a quick nap.

Also can these stun-wounds be soaked & healed as normal wounds?

Just musing on things while I wait for my card to come up.

Okay, let's go with the molecular sword with the flaming trapping, please.

Since I am the current cleric, I notice that some people don't have a "Wounds" place in their status bar. I'm not going to name names *cough*Shackle*cough* but if you could put that in, that greatly increases your chances of having me touch you in that special way when you're feeling ill, headache, fever, and a chill. Unless that's actually why you're deliberately -not- putting that in, which is understandable.
Indeed, Nature is excused because that's almost definitely what's going on. ;-)

And Jack, if you could add a space or two, that'd be great. Right now it just looks like you're fatigued 2 and really proud of your zero charisma. =P

Jack - the reason for the rule change was so that Stunning and Paralyzing couldn't take down Wild Cards (i.e., PC's) in one shot. But 1 Wound *is* Incapacitation for Extras, so I figured it'd work out the same in the long run.

However, after reading your post I do realize that taking one "permanent" Wound is more powerful than the *temporary* Incapacitation that the original rules inflicted.

I'll have to think about it some more, but now I'm leaning towards going back to the original rules. It's either that, or treat the Stun Wound as temporary, rolling Vigor for it to go away, but I don't like that idea much...

ALL - along with Thomas' requests, I'd also like to ask everyone with Heavy Armor to please make sure that it's noted that after your Toughness numbers, like :

Tough 6(10)Heavy

Thanks!

ALL - going back to Advancements, I'd like to post a house-rule here :

When you use an Advancement to get a new skill at d4, you may also increase one other skill that is currently *less* than its linked Attribute by one die value as well.

I totally forgot to post my house-rules at the beginning of Discussion, I'll summarize them and post them soon. Hopefully they won't affect the way you would have built your characters...

Jack - please change your Toughness notation to 8(2), that's standard SW format...

ALL - I used the wrong format in my Heavy Toughness example above, it should have been : Tough 10(6)Heavy

Shackle - your Toughness should be listed as 13(8). Also, don't forget your Marksman Edge!

Wolf Spider - you commented before that you could drop 12" without taking any damage. Actually, it's 8".

Enkidu has heavy armour in his human form, but his gear gets incorporated into his new forms when shifted, and doesn't count towards his armour rating.

As far as lying goes, Nature doesn't bother. It's a human trait, after all, and she is the voice of Gaia.

Promises, on the other hand, have power. She gives her word sparingly, but upholds it when she does.

Wolf Spider - you commented before that you could drop 12" without taking any damage. Actually, it's 8".

Whoops. Miscalculated. I'm sorry I've been sleep deprived a lot these days and numbers have a way of jumping around on me when I'm like this. 8" is still a decent amount of fall reduction. Still, a 48 foot drop with no damage is pretty cool in my eyes. I guess I'll need to spend more PP when we rank up to improve that!

[edit] After looking at my character, I think the 12" came from my foggy memory of when I had built him with 3 ranks of leaping. :/

Shackle - your Toughness should be listed as 13(8). Also, don't forget your Marksman Edge!

I did forget to use that. Poop.

Is the number in parenthesis the amount of armor you have that can be pierced, or the Toughness without armor? He only has 6 armor so just need to make sure.

The number in parenthesis is your total amount of Armor (all Armor can be pierced, even if it negates *some* AP). The number before the parenthesis is Toughness+Armor.

Yeah, the armor you're wearing supercedes the +2 Armor superpower (it doesn't stack), so your Toughness should be 11(6).

Woah these drones have Ambidextrous and Two fisted!!

Time to focus fire and start putting these things down!

Wait what? Worn armor supersedes the Toughness power??

What Shackle said. It doesn't apply to me, but it struck me as odd too, so I look up the power:

Toughness (1/Level)

Trappings: Big guys, dense skin, reinforced bones. Your character’s Toughness improves by +1 from mystical protection, super strong skin, dense bones, etc. The maximum Toughness bonus from this power is +10. Note that this is different from armor because it cannot be negated by Armor Piercing attacks.
Modifiers
• Hardy (+3): Your character is so tough only the most serious damage can harm him. If he is Shaken, additional Shaken results have no effect — they do not cause a wound.

There is nothing in there about it not stacking with worn armour; is that mentioned somewhere else?

I know worn armour doesn't work for me, but that is a different issue:

Clothes and other personal possessions are assumed into the creature’s shape, but cannot be used (so worn armor provides no benefit). Carried objects such as weapons are dropped.

Perhaps you were confusing it with the Armor power:

Armor covers the entire body and protects against all attacks, including area effect attacks. The power does not stack with regular armor, such as chain mail or Kevlar. The character takes the highest value instead.

Armor stacks with the figured Toughness stat. At least that is my understanding. Armor can be bypassed with AP attacks or by hitting where the armor does not cover. This usually involves a called shot penalty

Toughness power (and a couple of edges) raise the figured toughness stat.

The only stacking restriction I know of in SW is that multiple types of worn armor do not stack. Though even here there are exceptions for things like the Z-belt.

I know copying powers and clones that give more actions can be annoying at times. If anyone thinks I'm pushing too much, then just let me know. I like flexibility, but don't want to ruin someone else's fun.

My bad, I mis-interpreted Shackle's Toughness notation, and took his 2 (Power) to be the Armor Power, since he had it right next to Armor. Next time I'll actually look at the Power list! :)

Sorry for the confusion. What Enkidu and Jack said are completely correct. Except, Jack : the Armor Power also does not stack with worn armor, as Enkidu pointed out.

Alpha One - I specifically denied Extra Actions and Extra Limbs to avoid multiple attacks per round (at least at Novice level), but didn't think about Duplication. But, they're Extras, and there's only two of them, so I wasn't going to say anything about it.

ALL - house rule about Wild Attacks :
I'm still in the process of preparing all my house rules, but since it's come up, I want to talk about Wild Attacks. Any veteran player of SW (or even a Seasoned one :) knows that it's *always* best to Wild Attack when in a 1-on-1 fight. And I've proved thru statistical combat simulation that it is. So if one character Wild Attacks, the other one should too, just to keep things even. That mean a whole lot of +2's flying around, and two -2 to Parrys to have to remember from round to round (which in PbP, can be *days* between rounds).

So, to make using Wild Attack an even proposition in a 1-on-1 fight, I've upped the Parry to -3 (and to be clear, that's vs. *any* opponent, not just the one you're attacking). So now, if your opponent doesn't Wild Attack in return, you now have even odds of winning in a matched fight.

So Wild Attack becomes most useful against high-Parry and/or high-Toughness opponents. Much more of the specialty attack I think the system designers intended it to be.

@Nature: Hey there. Wanna 'ship? =)

Next round Thomas is probably gonna touch you to heal you, if you allow it. Do you want this to be the start of something?
Mind you, exactly what that "something is" is still up in the air. Everything from Romance subplot to something on the scale of creepiness is on the table.

Just saw an opportunity. Thought you'd like to fill it out, see what comes up. =)

Hey Zen how are these things getting two actions a round (claw and shot) without a MAP or off hand penalty?

They have the Ambidextrous and Two-Fisted Edges.

ALL - house rule about Wild Attacks :
...

Zen I strongly urge you to reconsider this house rule. Jack is pretty much built around wild attacks.

The wild attack mitigates the MAP for the Taunt/Trick and attack combat style which will be Jack's main fighting mode once a couple of advances kick in.

The wild attack also helps folks with out a heavy weapon, like Jack, fight Heavy Armored foes. The bonus to hit lessens the called shot penalty for hitting armor gaps or for hitting arms/weapons in disarming attacks.

I can even see Jack trying a Wild Rapid Touch attack (-4 for 3 attacks, +2 touch, +2 wild) to drop half a squad of baddies with the stun club. Though that nifty trick might have to wait until Jack replaces the storebought club with a Stun power device with the stronger mod.

-2 Parry is a significant penalty. It is half a raise. In a damage system as swingy as SW you do not hand your foe half a raise lightly. This is basically tricking/taunting yourself. That is giving the foe most of a free action. It means and extra d6 damage and anything else that comes with the raise you just gave them. Wild attacks are risky things to do.

The only reason Jack is considering using Wild attacks this much is that half his powerset is built to mitigate the risk. Parry/Deflection to offset the penalty. Jinx as a constant 1 in 6 ( always assume the foe has a d12) chance to save my bacon when, not if, things go wrong. Luck, Great Luck, Elan, Combat Reflexes, and soon Take the Hit to soak the more than usual number of wounds He will be eating. Jack runs a high risk, high reward creative combat style. Increasing the wild penalty will force a more conservative, and I feel boring, style.

I can readily understand the bother of tracking all those pesky modifiers. Is there a way we the players can help? If nothing else I would be happy to track all the wild attack modifiers and spoil them at the head of every post I make. Would that help to take some of the pressure off?

If not then I will adapt. Jack will move from a scrapper using tricks and foul play to punch above his weight to more of a traditional brick.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.
~Jack

My vote is against the wild attack house rule, for all the reasons jack said. It encourages safe (and therefore boring) strategies.

-Posted with Wayfinder

I agree with the others, in general. I prefer house rules be made to deal with real, observed, problematic issues, and not to ward off potential or theoretical issues. I have seen more than one GM stifle their group and create a repressive atmosphere by adding in rules meant to curb what they see as abuses that might occur. The unfortunate aspect of doing so is even though the rules are meant to make the game more fun, they can easily accomplish the complete opposite.

Remember that these games are typically play tested extensively before being published, and that the rules as presented are the ones the designers found to present the best possible balance of fun and fair play. That doesn't mean that they've thought of everything, and I'm all for a rule that deals with an issue that has dropped up in game and needs to be addressed. Likewise, if you can say that a rule is based on your first hand experience based on the same game (Necessary Evil, or at least Supers 2nd ed) with another group, I can be much more supportive of that that a rule that might help curb a potential abuse someone might use, while also hurting everyone with no knowledge of said abuse.

I don't see wild attack as a problem. As you say, it does make sense to do it 1 on 1. But in this large a group, I don't see that happening often. It's also something that can be used by the bad guys.

I also prefer to have house rules announced beforehand or debated on after there is an issue that comes up in game. When the rules keep changing it's hard to keep up. Especially in a PBP game where you're going back and forth between games.

Since everyone's complaining about it, I went back to my simulator and tried a Wild Card always Wild Attacking against an Extra that never did, and found only a 4% improvement in winning the fight. My previous simulation had been Wild Card vs. Wild Card, and I found in that case the Wild Attacker had an 11% improvement in winning the fight, which I consider significant.

Since the majority of battles will be with Extras, I remove my objection to using Wild Attack.

But if everyone using Wild Attack could preface their combat post with an OOC comment about their current Parry status, I'd appreciate it.

And, Jack - the only way you can get 3 attacks at -4 each is by having the Frenzy and Ambidextrous Edges. Otherwise, the most attacks you can get per round is 2 (and you'd need 2 Stun wands, as well), since you can never do anything with the same hand twice in one round.

Rapid Attack

Sometimes an outnumbered fighter needs to sacrifice skill for blind luck. A rapid attack is a wild swing of the blade or a hasty spray of shots that favors fortune over expertise.

In melee, the warrior can make up to three attacks as a single action. Roll a Fighting die for each, and subtract –4 for the totals. (Wild Cards add a Wild Die as usual.)

Ranged attackers with a semi-automatic weapon or revolver may fire up to six shot at a –4 penalty to each. Roll a Shooting
die for each shot (along with the Wild Die if the attacker is a Wild Card). Single action revolvers refer to this maneuver as “fanning the hammer,” and it requires two hands to perform.

Rapid attack cannot be combined with any other effect that allows attacking multiple foes in one action (Sweep, Frenzy, Autofire, Two Weapons, etc.), nor may it be used with a Double Tap or Three Round Burst.
The rapid attack must be taken all at once but the warrior can assign his skill dice to multiple targets if he chooses.

Ninjaed by Enkidu!

btw that ref is page 75 in SWD. It is rarely used but it is legit. It even got an errata in the latest(?) update. It now carries a -2 parry. So a Wild Rapid3 attack carries a parry penalty of -8 [-2 rapid+(3x-2wild)]. Better hope you drop them all.

Anyway I do not see this being used. At least I hope things never get that desperate......

Also
Thanks for reconsidering the Wild thing.

Thanks for clarifying the stun weapons. So they basically do fatigue damage. That works. My personal feeling is that Incap works better but I see the issue and am quite happy with this solution.

... If I stuck with the RAW "temporary Incapacitation", I can't see *ANY* reason why a bad guy wouldn't just use a Finishing Move on a temporarily Incapacitated PC - and that's game over.

It may just be me but I can see lots of reasons, but only two matter.

1. It wastes an action.
In a fight there is no difference between an Incap enemy and a dead one. Maybe with High Vigor targets who are likely to pop back up soon but then they are unlikely to get stunned in the first place. Plus high vigor targets are likely to come under the "...particularly tough ...victim.." exception. The action you use to finish the opponent is one you don't have available to deal with their friends or to pursue your goal.

2. It's not genre.
See the "Finishing moves" setting rule.

Finishing Move

Super heroes and villains are notoriously hard to kill. Wild Cards with Arcane Background (Super Powers) are immune
to Finishing Moves. Instead, helpless heroes and villains suffer the effects of the Drop (opponents gain +4 to attacks and
damage against them).

(Sorry but I do not have the page number for this I am using the 1st to 2nd edition rules doc here at work. Could someone with access to the current Super's Companion double check this for me?)

2a. And even if it does work, it doesn't.
See the Defeat table.

Sorry for the wall of text/string of posts. I tend to talk a lot. Please let my know if I need to reel it in.

I like some good, long, healthy text, especially at the beginning of starting a new game. You don't really know who knows how much of what, and generally just talking is the best way to learn. Just get hte knowledge out there and see what sticks. ^_^

So a Wild Rapid3 attack carries a parry penalty of -8 [-2 rapid+(3x-2wild)]. Better hope you drop them all.

Actually ignore this bit. It turns out Wild is an envelope All the attacks go into. So the Rapid3 Wild attack would carry a -4 parry. You are still toast just not quite as badly burned toast.

@Nature: Hey there. Wanna 'ship? =)

Next round Thomas is probably gonna touch you to heal you, if you allow it. Do you want this to be the start of something?
Mind you, exactly what that "something is" is still up in the air. Everything from Romance subplot to something on the scale of creepiness is on the table.

Just saw an opportunity. Thought you'd like to fill it out, see what comes up. =)

Nature is not someone you want to get into a relationship with. She's a psychotic ancient being trapped in the body of a 16 year old girl.

Enkidu - thanks, I totally forgot about Rapid Attack because the penalties are so brutal I never think about using it (just to give you an idea, I *totally* missed the "Rapid" part of Jack's "Wild Rapid Touch" description). And now with the -2 to Parry...

Jack - yeah, I forgot about the "not affected by Finishing Move" exclusion for Supers. Also about the Defeat table. First time playing with Supers, so...

"In a fight there is no difference between an Incap enemy and a dead one."
Except for Stun, which only *temporarily* Incapacitates a foe. So it's in his opponent's best interest to strike again, while they're helpless!

And, considering some of your guys' Parries and/or Toughnesses, a +4 to hit and damage isn't *all* that bad, so let's try using the RAW rules for Stun damage.

Sorry for all the flip-flopping, it's a totally new rule that I've never played before. It's taken me this long to put it in perspective.

Sorry for all the flip-flopping, it's a totally new rule that I've never played before. It's taken me this long to put it in perspective.

No sweat Zen. We are all finding our way here. So far I think everything is going really well.

Good job all around.

Don't tell me I've nothing to do..

A 3 and a 5...... ouch.

I should look into an initiative edge for Jack.

I'll see your country song I've never heard before and raise you my favorite Russian band, The Red Elvises.

I'll talk more about Advancement frequency in a later post, but right now I'd like to run an idea by you all : instead of giving you 10 PP when you reach Seasoned, how about giving you 2 PP every advancement? You could spend them immediately, or "bank" them to buy a more costly Power later on.

Some restrictions would still be in effect until Seasoned (no Multi Action, no Multi Limbs, 2 each of Parry, Toughness, Deflection, Duplication, etc.), but the total PP you could put in one Power would slowly creep up : 7 PP at the first advancement, 8 PP at the second, 9 at the fourth, etc.

Thoughts? Pros? Cons?

Yes, it would mean that you get 8 PP instead of 10 by the time you reach each new Rank. I had thought it would only apply to Seasoned, but it applies to every Rank.

Is anyone (*cough*Thomas*cough*) going to quibble over 8 PP total by the time you get to be Legendary (and I *do* intend to take this campaign to Legendary, if everyone sticks around!)?

Or, I could just say that now you'll get 8 PP instead of 10 at every new Rank if you want it as a lump sum... ;)

How about 2 every advance, and 4 when you hit a new rank?

I'm still learning the system so I'm good with whatever the GM decides.

Enkidu - that would solve the problem nicely!

Any other thoughts, comments, preferences?

I have no opinion about this.

hmmm I wonder if one could run or play in a pbp by posting nothing but song lyrics.......

Zen.

Wasn't there something about the Joker's wild setting rule being in effect? Are we short a benny or two? Or am I misreading something again?

2 per advance and 4 at the level would be nice. (I'd also like to talk about a reconfigure after this battle, as I have made a serious mistake in my SOP)

... (I'd also like to talk about a reconfigure after this battle, as I have made a serious mistake in my SOP)

This is a really good idea. Jack is pretty solid but then he was built to run pretty simple. (insert Simple Minds song here) But other more complex folks might need a tweak or two now that the rubber has hit the road so to speak.

my two cents anyway.

That's usually the way it works; once you've had a chance to see a character in action, there always tend to be a few hickups, and differences between the way you think a setup will work and the way it actually works.

If we want to do incremental increases to pp, i like the +2 at advances, +4 at rank up advance. That way we get our 10 pp, but more organically.

We can bank them in that case, right? Many powers cost more than 2...

Doing some tinkering would be nice after this. My damage output is crap.

-Posted with Wayfinder

If we want to do incremental increases to pp, i like the +2 at advances, +4 at rank up advance. That way we get our 10 pp, but more organically.

We can bank them in that case, right? Many powers cost more than 2...

Doing some tinkering would be nice after this. My damage output is crap.

Your damage output is fine. Don't expect to go toe to toe with something like Enkidu. You are not a straight up fighter. The Acrobat edge is really your major weapon. You have d12+2 for Agility tricks.

Agility tricks rack up parry penalties and shakes like nobodies business. Admittedly you will need Two-fisted, or an initiative edge to reliably make use of yourself but until then you can focus on shake locking and setting up targets for others.

This mass mooks in an open courtyard is not the kind of fight where Wolf will shine. You are the Thief who provides the flanking that lets the fighter hit a high AC target. Your kind of fight has you bouncing around a enemy wild card tricking and taunting until you get an opening where the concatenation of a successful trick, Taunt and good card order lets you plow in for a wild attack against the head or vitals.

Also remember we have pretty much no real gear at the mo. Give Wolf a few grenades and your leaping/wall crawling will rack up your mook
count.

Ya, Enkidu is bowling through them at the moment, but he is basically the heavy hitter/tank of the group. His Toughness tends to be high as well, so I'd like to find a way to make him attract more attention and make him a more frequent target. As long as they are shooting at him, the more subtle members of the group will have time to get into position to enact more intelligent strategies; much the way Thomas is going for the Objective while I'm still messing around with the mooks.