| GM_ZenFox42 |
Wasn't there something about the Joker's wild setting rule being in effect? Are we short a benny or two? Or am I misreading something again?
Well, the original NE book doesn't have it, altho the 2nd edition SPC does, so I'm of mixed mind.
...sure, 2 more Bennies all around! But I'm going to modify the rule so that the GM gets a Benny, too. ;)
And when a "night's" worth of gameplay has gone by, everybody resets to their normal number of Bennies, so spend the extras while you've got them!
ALL - the standard "alternate" setting rules for SPC2 include :
Blood&Guts : characters can spend Bennies on damage rolls!
Born a Hero : During character creation, heroes may ignore the Rank qualifications for Edges. They must still have any other requirements as usual.
Heroes Never Die : Heroes in movies very rarely die. And when they do, they go down fighting or perform one last, epic act of heroism. With this rule in play, heroes who would normally die are simply knocked out for a dramatically appropriate time instead. Only if the situation is particularly heroic, or if it serves as a major story point can characters actually die. This is backed up with the Defeat Table in SPC2.
Joker's Wild : When a player character draws a Joker during combat, he receives his normal +2 bonus to Trait and damage rolls. In addition, all player characters receive a Benny!
| GM_ZenFox42 |
Regarding reconfiguring your PC's - I'll allow it after this battle, but the changes must be *minor*, *few*, and stay true to your original character concept - please don't everyone shoot for Enkidu's level of combat prowess! And I reserve the right to nix a change for whatever reason.
And, yes, you can always "bank" advancement PP's to build up enough to get a more costly Power.
| Doctor Toxic |
Okay, I'm changing poison to melee and changing decay to an switchable that doesn't affect living matter. I'm adding ensnare throwable - sticky polymer goo.
I stay a person that mostly hampers the enemy, but all of my attacks are not based on the same resistance. I still get the utility of Decay, but it's only an attack against robots and such.
Name: Doctor Toxic 2.0
Race: Human
Attributes: Agility d8, Smarts d8, Spirit d6, Strength d4, Vigor d6
Skills: Fighting d8, Healing d8, Knowledge: Chemistry d8, Notice d6, Stealth d8, Throwing d8
Pace: 10/6, Parry: 6, Toughness: 8(2), Charisma: -4
Gear: Unarmed Strike d8 (Str), Natural Armor (+2), Commlink, Computer (Handheld)
Special Abilities:
•Alien Form (A blob of Goo)(*): Charisma -4, get Healing at -4
•Obese: +1 Tough; -1 Pace; Roll d4 for running
•Poverty: Start with half money; Lose half of money regularly
•Super Powers: Gain the Super Powers arcane background
•Luck: +1 Bennie each game session
•Quick: Redraw initiative cards of 5 or lower
Super Powers:
•Altered Form•Reach, Viscous: Body is made of unusual material, or they can stretch or manipulate it. Can expand/contract 50%, and +1 Reach
•Armor(Lvl1)•: Your character gains 2 points of armor each time this power is purchased.
•Decay•Strong, Switchable (Alternate): Each round of contact destroys 10 pounds of matter. Cannot affect living beings.
•Ensnare•Ranged Touch Attack (Throwing): Victim suffers a –2 penalty to Pace and skills linked to Agility and Strength until freed. With a raise, full restraint.
•Poison•Switchable (Primary): On successful Touch Attack, Vigor roll or Fatigue
•Resistance(Lvl1)•: Increase damage resistance vs a Power Type
•Speed(Lvl1)•: Your character can run at incredible speeds depending on the number of points you put into it.
•Wall Walker•: The hero can walk on horizontal surfaces or even upside down at their normal Pace.
| Jack of Clubs. |
Re: dupes and bennies. Dupes are still part of the main character. They no more get their own fund of bennies than an animated object or a force construct would. And technically I don't think Alpha can spend bennies to help the dupes without taking the 'Common bond' Or "Natural Leader' edges. But I could be wrong on this and besides it is none o' my business anyway. :7)
Mind you spending a bennie on a dupe to soak would generally be a poor choice as the primary can just use their next action to create another dupe. Though I suppose if the dupe were in a hard to get to position/doing something complicated it might be worth it.
| Jack of Clubs. |
Hey Wolf
I was thinking about the direction I want to take Jack in and it occurred to me that we might both be treading the same road. As it is we seem to be heading the thief route and we might start to step on each others toes.
So I was thinking. I leave the thief route to you and jack becomes more of a wheelman/fixer. I will still keep some thief type skills, because you can never have too many people with lockpick. But I will focus more on drive/boat/pilot/repair and relevant edges.
In a way I will be playing the engineer to Doc Toxic's scientist and a back up-thief to you.
Sound like that will work?
Toxic Is this stepping into your path too much?
Shackle How about you?
| Jack of Clubs. |
I'm good with that.
I'm just wondering why anybody would bother spending all of that time picking a lock when you can just dissolve it. No lock, no problem.
Well you might not always be available for house(breaking) calls.
:7)| Wolf_Spider |
Sounds good to me.
-Posted with Wayfinder
| GM_ZenFox42 |
Re : duplicates and Bennies - I couldn't find anything with a Google search regarding needing Edges to do that, and SPC2 doesn't say one way or the other. But I'm feeling generous, and will say that Alpha One "Prime" can spend his Bennies on his duplicates if he wishes (altho, as you pointed out, he can get another duplicate back on his next turn, but this allows him to re-roll a duplicate's roll as well).
| Alpha One |
As for as Bennies and Dupes go:
If you'd like to restrict Bennies to "Prime" use only, I'm fine with that. Since you admitted that you forgot to take duplication off the table, I feel like I'm already getting away with a lot. Your call though. I don't plan on abusing the dupe feature.
| Wolf_Spider |
Can someone help me understand how to do agility tricks? I want to make good use of it. I also need to remember I have a gun. :/
Thomas Roland
|
Much of that can be found in this handy-dandy combat survival guide.
It's mostly you just say a thing you are doing, then roll the trait and consult the chart. Success is a penalty, raise is Shaken.
I once had a character that had reallllly high smarts. He kept the enemy's toughest guy shaken by yelling Yo Mamma jokes. ^_^
| Wolf_Spider |
Thats greatly helpful. I can do those really easy.
-Posted with Wayfinder
| GM_ZenFox42 |
A new house-rule I just read about!
Ever had a Fighting or Shooting roll Ace and Ace and Ace, until you've got (say) 3 Raises?
Since the first Raise gives you an extra d6 on the Damage roll, the other Raises are "wasted".
What about this : every Raise on an attack roll past the first provides AP +1 to your Damage roll?
I like it! Thoughts, observations?
| Jack of Clubs. |
A new house-rule I just read about!
Ever had a Fighting or Shooting roll Ace and Ace and Ace, until you've got (say) 3 Raises?
Since the first Raise gives you an extra d6 on the Damage roll, the other Raises are "wasted".
What about this : every Raise on an attack roll past the first provides AP +1 to your Damage roll?
I like it! Thoughts, observations?
Not a fan but I can live with it.
Objections:
It puts more focus on the chance aspect of SW combat. Plus there is a way to effectively add AP to attacks already in the game. Called shots, take a -2/4/6 to hit and bypass all but space suit type armor. Maybe even then depending on attack description and the exact armor trapping.
Additionally it encourages folks to "try for an ace" rather than try another way to get around/overcome a armored opponent. Anything that discourages tricks/tests and other tactics should be avoided as a general rule.
If you feel bad about a multi ace roll being 'wasted' then award a benny for it.
Anyway like I said. Not a fan of these types of rules but I can live.
| Wolf_Spider |
Wolf - also note that the target's Parry is at -2 *to every attacker*, not just to you! So if there's other PC's around, they get the benefit of your Trick.
Thats even better! I'm gonna be flipping all over the place.
-Posted with Wayfinder
| Jack of Clubs. |
Jack.....
and does 9 points of damage, leaving him Shaken.
And prone. The prone part is important.
SWD pg. 75
....If a prone defender is caught in melee, his Parry is reduced
by 2 and he must subtract 2 from his Fighting rolls. Getting
up from prone costs 2” of movement.
There is a tactic called TPS that makes use of the prone condition.
Trick the target to distract, Push for knockdown, and Stomp with a wild attack to the head or vitals.
The bonuses and penalties collapse into a net +2 for the vitals/head shot. Or a +0 for an armor bypassing eye slit/tiny gap shot. It takes 3 on 1 or some edges to work well but it knocks down wild cards like an upper class english girl.
| Doctor Toxic |
A new house-rule I just read about!
Ever had a Fighting or Shooting roll Ace and Ace and Ace, until you've got (say) 3 Raises?
Since the first Raise gives you an extra d6 on the Damage roll, the other Raises are "wasted".
What about this : every Raise on an attack roll past the first provides AP +1 to your Damage roll?
I like it! Thoughts, observations?
Damage rolls already ace, which makes for the possibility of huge swings, especially when we get many damage dice. Since the PC's are in every fight, we're eventually going to get one-shotted. Lets' not make that worse.
I'd suggest every raise after the first is a +1 to your next attack against that target. You've figured out their moves, or something.
| Jack of Clubs. |
| Wolf_Spider |
Im neutral about the house rule. Seems will come into play rarely, but wont break the game either way since most of us use toughness with armor as a second layer of protection.
As an aside, i was thinking of shifting a few skill points to a technical skill, so i can later justify city of villains-style extra spider limbs which have all his cool gadgets and stuff.
-Posted with Wayfinder
| Alpha One |
I have no issues with the house rule, other than remembering it. Hopefully won't be a problem.
| ZenFox42 |
So far, other than Jack (who's Neutral/Against it), no one seems to mind the suggested house-rule. As others have said, I don't think it will come up that often. I'd like to try it and see what happens.
Dr. Toxic, I'm against every raise after the first is a +1 to your next attack against that target, as that requires remembering that by the time your next action comes up (which in PbP can be *days*!). Also, a +1 to your Fighting roll is worth +2 to your damage, so this rule would be twice as deadly as the suggested one.
Jack, I'd never heard of TPS - it sounds awesome!
The "net +2" is for one person doing all three? +2 to Fighting for Wild Attack, +2 to get past the target's Parry, and -2 for the MAP? No, wait, you said for a head shot, which is another -4, and if one character did all three the MAP also would be -4.
So, how are you getting +2 for a head shot? Just curious...
Wolf Spider - sure, no problem switching things around (a little) right after this scene ends. But then you're locked in!
| Wolf_Spider |
Fair. Thank you.
-Posted with Wayfinder
| Wolf_Spider |
Just going to reduce my lockpicking to a d4 and have K:Technology at d4, since both would be something he was learning recently.
I don't think K: Technology is the right answer to it, though. some kind of science instead?
| Wolf_Spider |
In a previous post, you said the Knowledge skill was for "city of villains-style extra spider limbs which have all his cool gadgets and stuff" - was "city" an auto-correct error or something?
What exactly do you want to do with this Knowledge skill?
Oh, right. I forgot it's been years. There was this MMO called City of Heroes/City of Villains that was a superhero game. One of the villain organizations was called 'arachnos' and had these dudes with robotic spider backpacks.
Here is a picture of a what I'm talking about.
I'd like to eventually build wolf spider into using tech devices to augment his powers. Like how spiderman used technological web shooters.
| GM_ZenFox42 |
Considering the game mechanics, I'd say that qualifies as the Extra Limbs Superpower, which you'll eventually be able to take.
I can't see any need for Know/Tech in order to build them, as they come "pre-made" as a Superpower.
But since they're mechanical, you might want to put some points into Repair, in case they get damaged.
| Wolf_Spider |
Considering the game mechanics, I'd say that qualifies as the Extra Limbs Superpower, which you'll eventually be able to take.
I can't see any need for Know/Tech in order to build them, as they come "pre-made" as a Superpower.
But since they're mechanical, you might want to put some points into Repair, in case they get damaged.
I'll do that. Thanks!
| Jack of Clubs. |
...
Jack, I'd never heard of TPS - it sounds awesome!
The "net +2" is for one person doing all three? +2 to Fighting for Wild Attack, +2 to get past the target's Parry, and -2 for the MAP? No, wait, you said for a head shot, which is another -4, and if one character did all three the MAP also would be -4.
So, how are you getting +2 for a head shot? Just curious...
It is usually a 3 person maneuver for taking down high-toughness/armored targets. Though edges can reduce the needed numbers
First person: Trick, a success drops the targets parry by 2.
Second person: Push to knock target prone. The Trick bu person 1 has no effect on this. So the order can be swapped as needed. If The Push person has the edges to do 2 actions then adding a Test of wills before the push can help to bring down strong targets.
Third person: Stomp. Wild attack to the vitals. This is where the Trick comes in. The target is at -4 parry (-2 trick, -2 prone) while the attacker is at +2 from wild attack. The parry penalty takes care of the vitals/head shot leaving a net +2. Or a net 0 if you have to take the -6 to get past the really good armor.
Edges can make this much easier to pull off but it can be done by no edge extras with a bit of luck on the card draw.
Speaking of edges I had an idea for a custom edge to bounce off you.
"That's my name: Treat the Jack of Clubs as a joker for all purposes."
I am thinking Veteran/Heroic sounds about right. Could even be watered down by not having it give the +2 to trait rolls but not the initiative of a Joker. Or by not letting it interrupt a Joker. Or bu only granting +1 to traits. Or by limiting it to draws in combat but not Chases etc.
I'm basing it of the race edge for the Playing card people in a savaged Alice in Wonderland from Triple Ace. Just an idea. It kind of fits the 'not exactly super-powered but damn that boy is lucky' vibe for Jack.
Thomas Roland
|
FWIW, that's seems like a weak Edge. Comparing it to Level Headed, which gives you *twice* the percentage of drawing a Joker, with the added benefit of having 2 initiative cards, That's My Name only increases your chances of having a 2/54 chance of drawing a Joker to 3/54. Apart from needing a nerf, it might need a buff! =)
| GM_ZenFox42 |
Since we're nearing the end of the first scene, I want to post my house-rules here so that if any of the Skill-based ones alter your character concept, you can re-shuffle your Skill points around :
-The Investigation skill also includes searching, forensics, shadowing, etc.
-Gambling covers lying, not reacting to bad news, etc. It is more like “Deception”, and could even cover disguises and the like. Bluffs are Gambling vs. Notice.
-Lockpicking covers setting up and getting around any kind of locks and traps. More like “Security” in general. It’s Agility based in mechanical settings, and Smarts based in electronic settings.
-When you use an Advancement to get a new skill at d4, you may also increase one other skill that is currently *less* than its linked Attribute by one die value as well.
-A grappler can opt to make an opposed roll to “subdue” the target (temporary Incapacitation), but succeeds only on a Raise.
-Running gives you (roll+2) in extra inches of movement, up to your max Running die value (3 to 6 on a normal running die of d6).
-Getting first initiative and Holding is a great tactical advantage, that having to make opposed Agility rolls to resolve possibly negates (and slows down melee). Whoever’s Holding goes first.
-The Frenzy Edge imposes a -1 penalty instead of -2.
-A -4 Called Shot can attack the small gaps in "full armor" (but not "complete armor"), removing the armor's bonus to the target's Toughness.
-The maximum number of Wounds a single attack can inflict is four. The attacker gets a Benny for every Raise past the fourth.
-Wild Cards roll once per day for Natural Healing.
(Enkidu – your Regeneration/1 now allows a Natural Healing check every HOUR.)
Seeing how much flak I've gotten from every proposed change so far, I expect a bunch from all these. So...go for it! :)
Thomas Roland
|
-The Investigation skill also includes searching, forensics, shadowing, etc.
-Gambling covers lying, not reacting to bad news, etc. It is more like “Deception”, and could even cover disguises and the like. Bluffs are Gambling vs. Notice.Seeing how much flak I've gotten from every proposed change so far, I expect a bunch from all these. So...go for it! :)
I guess I should start off in classic internetz form and say that you suck, all the bands you like are dumb, and you're not just ruining Savage Worlds, but also all RPGs in general. Also I had sex with your mom.
With that important opening ceremony observed, one of the reasons that I like SW is that it does have such a simply skill variety. Whereas Pathfinder and Shadowrun seem obsessed with making sure that no skill is always useful, SW says nuts to that and doesn't parse things.
Hence, I think the Investigation rule is an overstep. To wit: What now is Notice used for if not for looking at things? Are you saying that a quick look is Notice, but a long look is Investigation? That sounds like the way of madness and like the 3rd Ed. Search and...didn't they have three different skills for looking around? Search and...was another one Observe? Spot? No, that was Data's cat. Maybe Notice was another? See, I don't even know, that's how fast they got rid of them.
It sounds like Notice is now the new Sense Motive (the 2nd worst skill in PFS).
I understand the temptation to do this, but please don't do this. ^_^
| Jack of Clubs. |
Flack incoming......
1. Investigation. What Thom said. Additionally this breaks the SW detective triumvirate. There are 3 non-overlapping skills that govern information gathering. Notice for immediate information concerns, ambush, are they lying etc. Investigation for stored information usually this is written but this can also be used for remembering stories and law in a pre or pseudo literate society. Streetwise for culturally or collectively stored information, rumor, who's been where with whom, who has some tv's that fell off the back of a truck.
Forensics, in my view, should be a Knowledge skill. It is a very specific skillset doing a defined job. If you lump it in with investigation then you end up with librarians reading splash patterns, taking fingerprints and swabbing for DNA
Shadowing is not a single skill. It is a combination of Stealth (not being seen), Notice (taking clues from your targets actions), and Streetwise (knowing the area, best paths, hiding spots). I suppose you could slap it onto Investigation if you like, but why?
Perhaps I am going about this the wrong way. Why do you see this change as necessary? What problem will this solve?
2. So lying is Persuasion. That is pretty much what it does. Again what is the reason for the change? There are also some unintended(?) consequences here. Gambling is a Smarts skill, Persuasion is Spirit. So smarter people rather than those with strong, forceful personalities are better than lying to you? In counter evidence I present the entire acting and advertising industries. The adverts are no doubt cooked up by some very smart folks but the talent sells the add. Also Gambling is not effected by Charisma/Attractive edges, Purposeful?
Again the question is why?
3. Lockpicking, this makes perfect sense. The question is how will you apply it? Say we have a person with d12 smarts and d4 agility. They spend 4 skillpoints on Lockpicking what is their score? Is lockpicking now two separate skills?
4. Skill advancement. A good solution to the new skill problem. Consider it stolen.
5. Grappling. I am not sure what problem you are trying to solve here. Is this to simulate sleeper holds & strangling? I can see that but this chance allows one to KO robots or other things without vulnerable airways/internal organs. Would not a better way be to apply the existing hit location system? Simply apply the fighting penalty to the attackers opposed Strength roll and there you go. A -2 grapples a limb, perhaps giving the attacker temporary control of the pistol the target is holding. -4 and you are inflicting double damage as you grip something important.
6. A tiny change, what is the problem you are trying to solve? Without a map I do not see how an inch or two on a running die will make the least difference.
7. Holding. I do not see the problem here? How does having to make a roll negate the advantage in turning your 2 from last turn into a King this turn? I can see the bit about removing the opposed roll. It makes some edges a tad less useful but not enough to matter.
8. Frenzy. So you want to make one of the most powerful and popular combat edges even better? Why?
9. Armor. I thought this was the normal rule.... Ok it isn't. Odd. Thank you for codifying this for us
10. Wounds. What problem are you trying to solve?
This will make some builds much much stronger. Full disclosure Jack is one of those builds. High Vigour, lots of bennies, Elan and (soon) Take the Hit mean that Jack is VERY good at soaking wounds. Sometimes massive wounds, and the resulting use of the injury/defeat tables is the only way to put someone down.
11. Healing. [b]What problem are you trying to solve here?[b]
This change really reduces the value of the Healing Power/Heal skill.
Tl/Dr
Why are these changes needed? What problems do they solve?
| Enkїdu |
Like the others, my question is basically Why do you think these changes are necessary?
Are these rules from your home game that you are trying to port over into this forum? If not, where did they come from? Are these changes addressing issues that you have seen arise over numerous games in the past, thus representing the tweaks and adjustments of those experiences? Or are they based on theory; reading a rule in the book and not liking it, and deciding to change it before the original comes up? The second form of house ruling is vastly more disruptive than the first. In the first, the changes represent solutions to problems actually encountered, and play-tested out with a living breathing group to make sure they don't change the game too much. The second may be changing something that may not be perfect, but could be there to mitigate some other game rule or potential abuse or ease of gameplay, and changing it can have far reaching, and sometimes unpredictable effects.
Basically, as I have said before, I don't believe pro-active rule adjustments ever work the way envisioned and so I always feel that house rules should be kept to a bare minimum, and created to address specific, and actually encountered issues.
| Doctor Toxic |
While I like many of these rules, I do agree that we should try to house rule as little as possible and only to solve things that are known to be significant problems.
Another issue is that this is a PBP game. Unlike a game where we spend many hours at a time, people engage this game for a quick bit and then go on to another game. Remembering house rules can be a problem if you are in multiple savage worlds games.
As to things I've seen actually be problems:
Being able to buy a new skill and raise a skill does help a lot. It's hard when you realize that you need something and all you can do is get it at a low level.
The other issue is capping the number of wounds at four. As we get more dice in our attacks, there's more possibility of several dice going crazy at once. Yes, very tough characters can soak a lot. But it also means that every character has to be built to soak a lot as the game advances. Getting eight wounds pretty much means that anybody who isn't Tanky McTankface is going down hard. I've seen other GMs use this.
Healing would be an issue in a game without special healing abilities. I've been in a few games where you take a few days off after every fight. I wouldn't mind it, but I don't think it's necessary.
| GM_ZenFox42 |
Ok, so why did I do all these?
-The Investigation skill also includes searching, forensics, shadowing, etc.
"Searching" to my mind involves *knowing where to look* - under the bottom of drawers, finding secret latches, cutting open the pillowcases, etc. "Noticing" to my mind is *being able to see/hear things that are not hidden, and have them make an impact on your mind*. I don't like the fact that Notice (which is used often, so most PC's have it fairly high) can be used to search a room. I'm pretty adamant about this point.
I hadn't heard of Shadowing as being done as Jack described, I'm willing to drop it from Investigation.
I wasn't thinking of "forensics" as using a DNA lab, but as *looking for clues and being able to deduce something from them*.
-Gambling covers lying, not reacting to bad news, etc. It is more like “Deception”, and could even cover disguises and the like. Bluffs are Gambling vs. Notice.
Gambling is the least-used skill, and I was trying to give it a reason to exist. I hadn't thought of the fact that Persuasion includes Charisma bonuses, while Gambling does not. However, Persuasion says that it "is the ability to *convince* others to do what you want them to do" - it makes no mention of lying or bluffing. Will have to think about that some more...
-Lockpicking covers setting up and getting around any kind of locks and traps. More like “Security” in general. It’s Agility based in mechanical settings, and Smarts based in electronic settings.
We're in an electronic setting, so Lockpicking is Smarts-based. If you have a high Lockpicking based off of a high DEX, I'd be willing to let you keep your current skill level.
-A grappler can opt to make an opposed roll to “subdue” the target (temporary Incapacitation), but succeeds only on a Raise.
Just trying to provide other options in grappling besides doing damage. Subdual temporarily Incapacitates the target so they can't do *anything*, but it also means the grappler can't do anything else either. I should mention, once you've subdued your opponent, no one makes any more rolls until the grappler lets go.
-Running gives you (roll+2) in extra inches of movement, up to your max Running die value (3 to 6 on a normal running die of d6).
I just couldn't accept that when you opt to run, you could only gain 1 or 2 squares of extra movement.
-Getting first initiative and Holding is a great tactical advantage, that having to make opposed Agility rolls to resolve possibly negates (and slows down melee). Whoever’s Holding goes first.
I should have clarified, this only applies when you try to *interrupt someone else's action*. It has no impact on your getting a 2 this round, going on Hold, and acting first on the next round.
-The Frenzy Edge imposes a -1 penalty instead of -2.
I've done statistical modeling of combat by computer that shows with a -2 to each Attack, Frenzy actually *lowers* your chances of surviving a 1-on-1 combat. Making it a -1 penalty *increases* your chances of survival, which is what an Edge should do. I'm pretty adamant about this one.
-The maximum number of Wounds a single attack can inflict is four. The attacker gets a Benny for every Raise past the fourth.
This is to prevent one-shotting my bosses, and has been suggested more than once by one of the system developers as a "fix" to the system. I'm pretty adamant about this one, too.
-Wild Cards roll once per day for Natural Healing.
I wanted PC's to be able to recover more quickly from their un-healed Wounds than once per week. It just sucks to have to retreat back to town and stay in bed for a week or more. PC's are *heroes*, and heroes get over their Wounds quickly! And I can't see how this rule can really reduce the value of the Healing Power/Heal skill, given that Wounds become "unhealable" after the Golden Hour. If you don't want to have Wound penalties for the rest of the day, you'll certainly want to use the Power or Skill as much as possible!