Also, if anyone sees a +5 on a psionic character, it could be a competence or insight bonus, which stacks with APB.
One thing that has been asked a few times, but I have yet to see an answer to yet, is whether spell slots continue to increase.
When I hit CL 21 Cleric, do I start unlocking 10th level spell slots for use with metamagic? When I hit CL 21 Psychic Warrior, can I start grabbing Level 6 Powers from other classes with Expanded Knowledge?
~~
But the player should still mark it as a +5 competence or insight bonus. :P
~~
For clarification of stuff from my build..
Psychic Warrior has good will and fort save progression, and I take them alongside each other for 20 levels. Aegis has d10 hit die, full BaB, and Psychic Warrior has full ML progression.
Which means, at level 20, my character's base saves are 12/6/12, +20 BaB, 20d10 HD, ML 20 Psychic Warrior.
I then switch to Shark Incarnate/Cleric multiclass, giving me all good saving throws, 3 ML over the 5 levels, full BaB/d10 hit die progression, full Cleric casting progression.
At the end of that, I should have saves of 15/9/15, +25 BaB, 25d10 hit die, ML 23 Psychic Warrior (boosted by trait to 25), CL 5 Cleric. Yes?
The way I did it, I ended up with 25 powers known, and 172 pp from Psi War and Dark Tempest. It's only an extra 5 levels worth.
I think I'm going to bow out. It looks like the game is shaping up to be really psionics heavy... I don't really care for them in general and it really seems like they have balance issues, especially at high levels. Good luck to those who stick with it.
I'll be happy when that misconception dies...
Sorry Nate, happy gaming.
I think I'm going to bow out. It looks like the game is shaping up to be really psionics heavy... I don't really care for them in general and it really seems like they have balance issues, especially at high levels. Good luck to those who stick with it.
Not that I'd advise you touch this game with a 20 foot pole anyway given who posted the thread, but this seems...odd.
Psionic Powers are pound for pound weaker than their spell counterparts, by a long shot.
The main problem with Gestalt Psionics is that Power Point pools stack, so they end up with WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too many Power Points.
I'm mostly unfamiliar with pathfinder psionics. I'll just need to know if we're using magic/psionics transparency or not. I prefer it, but I can adapt.
For questions regarding over 20th levels, Beyond 20th level is more or less what we'll be using.
One important note:
See what level we are? See what the XP cost is to get to 26?
Even fighting a Mythic Tarrasque AND the Midgard Serpent AT THE SAME TIME only gets us 19,660,800 XP.
So, if we level(vs gaining a mythic tier) it will be story based, not on XP.
Psionics is more efficient, but not as powerful. I mean, if you play a gestalt Wilder/Psion you would end up with a metric crap ton of power points. But, no one here is doing that, that I'm aware of.
In fairness I've never seen the psionics used at high level, so it may be a case of looking worse than it is (though I've seen them be disruptive in lower level gestalt games). I was kind of curious at first to see how they would actually play out, when there was 1 person using them... With 4 of them it's going to be too much for me.
The percentage of people wanting to play them also makes me wonder... If they're so well balanced why are they disproportionately popular?
I'm running a way of the wicked game with gestalt and no psionics. Those characters are only 16th level and mythic tier 7. Any one of those could beat anything I've seen here so far, including the character I'm making.
Probably in one or two rounds.
Any system can be OP, if the players have the system mastery, and the desire to be OP.
One factor is the rarity.
Most games don't allow psionics, so every game that does gets everyone whose been dying to actually get to try a psionic build pop in.
Like, in every thread I've seen that allows monsters in general rather than on a case by case basis, the majority of players will be monsters... Because it's rare. They don't get to do it often.
This isn't proof for or against the balance of either of those factors. But when I thought that we were going to get to use high level monsters, I was like "Oh yeah, I'm gonna be a titan! I've never even thought of the possibility of getting to be a titan before!" Even though Tiffany the Titan is much, much weaker than Sūn Xíngzhě the Monkey King mechanically, I wanted to be Tiffany the Titan because that is something of a ridiculously rare opportunity. Sūn Xíngzhě is a concept I could achieve with a lower level psionic gestalt, with lots of bigger numbers thrown on, so he was my second choice.
Can I get a post from each of you that includes race, class/levels, and general role?
Also, your likely mythic path.
The percentage of people wanting to play them also makes me wonder... If they're so well balanced why are they disproportionately popular?
I like them BECAUSE they're so well balanced.
I had a question about Talents (0th level psion powers). Do you get these, or do you spend one of your powers known on them?
Name: The Sapphire Light
Race: Noble Elan
Race: Human.
Role: Group Diplomat, Kn Skills, Mind Linker and teamwork buster, Enemy mind Controller, spy, long range blaster, all round good egg.
Class:
G1: Psion telepath L25
G2: Tactician Commander L15
Mythic: psion-uncarnate L10 Mythic [Overmind] M1.
I'll be happy when that misconception dies...
Sorry Nate, happy gaming.
Could not agree more.
@Kryzbyn
If your class says you get them, then you get what is says, as in Psion gets three, and so on.
There is a feat which gives you 5 more [I took this for my PC]
Some GMs allow players to have one less 1st level power and use the slot for 5 talents but that's a case by case GM by GM thing.
Some powers like Energy splash give you the Talent as well. But it has to be stated in the powers description that is dos.
Ahh. I will look again then.
Psionic Powers are pound for pound weaker than their spell counterparts, by a long shot.
Ahahahahahahaha oh god you're serious?
There's a character in this thread with a +22 to AC metaconcert inertial armor. No amount of mythic Mage Armor will ever touch that. Sure, as far as diversity of affects go, regular spells are better; but at the same time, Wilders far outstrip any other caster for damage potential; Energy Stun >> Fireball; Hustle >> Haste; Expansion >> Righteous Might... with Quicken Psionics + Hustle Psionics + Schism + Hustle, you can reasonably cast four spells per round by level 10.
And let's look at some of those spells. Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition, Tactical Precognition, Grip of Iron and Inertial Armor are five of the best buff spells in existence, scaling to absurdly powerful levels by 20... and they're available trivially to *any* psionic caster, who with Hustle Power is throwing down at least three of them in the first round of combat. A psionic gish does things a wizard can't: namely, everything.
* * *
That said, this thread doesn't seem too psionics-heavy; I'm certainly staying away from it, though I'm getting a Psionic Dueling weapon because they're awesome.
Psionics is more efficient, but not as powerful. I mean, if you play a gestalt Wilder/Psion you would end up with a metric crap ton of power points. But, no one here is doing that, that I'm aware of.
Even worse would be if you went psion 20/Tactician 10, Metamind 10.
You would get the same amount 9 (14 for elans) minimum (+ exponentally more per feat), or sequestering many powers for free PP, then finally an additional 13 from you psicrystal.Or you can just have unlimited PP for 1 minute each day ^-^
The percentage of people wanting to play them also makes me wonder... If they're so well balanced why are they disproportionately popular?
Some of the main reasons I like psionics so much is that it creates rules for things you can not do with the base rules, and some of them are things that I really like. low level unlimited teleporting (even if its only 15ft), telepathy as a class feature (even if its very unwieldy and limited), body modifications via Aegis, Called weaponry as a class feature, ect :)
And I like more then , just a personal preference ^-^Can I get a post from each of you that includes race, class/levels, and general role?
Also, your likely mythic path.
Sorry, im not at that point in my creation yet :/
Will get one to you as soon as I get it more set in stone ^-^Edit: Thunderbeard. Almost all true. I would defently agree that psionics can be more powerful then magic, but only in certain aspects.
Low level powers scaling up is one for sure, so is spending all your pp/slots on only high level powers instead of all levels like a wizard.
Agreed tho, that some of these low powers (like inertial Armor, or mind thrust) scale really well into higher levels.
As for multi-casting, you are not taking into consideration the time it takes to get re-focused. Its a move action minimum to cast any metapower, meaning that after the first, its essentially a full-round action to cast a metapower, an equivalent to a sorcerer. It has its limitations as well (such as being unable to have multiple metapsionic effects at the same time) and the only real way to get around it requires 2 feats (psicrystals) and only works once.
Finally, about the insane armor boost that the person above got, it requires using a dozen followers and only lasts a few days and is about as gamey as using the leadership feat to custom brew your own mount who also crafts everything you own for half price.
Tiffany the Titan is much, much weaker than Sūn Xíngzhě the Monkey King mechanically,
See, this is exactly the kind of thing that makes me concerned about balance... An Elysian Titan is colossal with regeneration 15, +23 Natural Armor, +34 Strength, a suite of constant and at will SLA, and more; plus the 'prophet' gets 20 levels of divine casting for an extra 1 CR... If that's "much, much weaker" than your psionic character than it seems like there could be an issue with the psionics...
Tiffany the Titan is much, much weaker than Sūn Xíngzhě the Monkey King mechanically,See, this is exactly the kind of thing that makes me concerned about balance... An Elysian Titan is colossal with regeneration 15, +23 Natural Armor, +34 Strength, a suite of constant and at will SLA, and more; plus the 'prophet' gets 20 levels of divine casting for an extra 1 CR... If that's "much, much weaker" than your psionic character than it seems like there could be an issue with the psionics...
I've also built level 15, non-gestalt, 20 pt buy, core race, Paizo only, WBL compliant characters that would annihilate poor Tiffany in two rounds without poor Tiffany having even a chance to hit their saves or AC. And a level 20 one that could do it from a mile away in one surprise round.
Once you get past a certain point, power scaling breaks in pathfinder, and you can have however much power you want to look for.
Can I get a post from each of you that includes race, class/levels, and general role?
Also, your likely mythic path.
I've got that on my computer. I'll post it in an hour or so.
Psionic Powers are pound for pound weaker than their spell counterparts, by a long shot.Ahahahahahahaha oh god you're serious?
There's a character in this thread with a +22 to AC metaconcert inertial armor. No amount of mythic Mage Armor will ever touch that. Sure, as far as diversity of affects go, regular spells are better; but at the same time, Wilders far outstrip any other caster for damage potential; Energy Stun >> Fireball; Hustle >> Haste; Expansion >> Righteous Might... with Quicken Psionics + Hustle Psionics + Schism + Hustle, you can reasonably cast four spells per round by level 10.
And let's look at some of those spells. Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition, Tactical Precognition, Grip of Iron and Inertial Armor are five of the best buff spells in existence, scaling to absurdly powerful levels by 20... and they're available trivially to *any* psionic caster, who with Hustle Power is throwing down at least three of them in the first round of combat. A psionic gish does things a wizard can't: namely, everything.
"Damage potential" is largely meaningless. Damage is the weakest thing a caster can do.
Inertial Armor is neat, but it's just AC. +22 is impossible anyway, or so unlikely as to not be particularly relevant except in games like these.
Edit:
Finally, about the insane armor boost that the person above got, it requires using a dozen followers and only lasts a few days and is about as gamey as using the leadership feat to custom brew your own mount who also crafts everything you own for half price.
Case in point.
You can't spend more PP on a Power than your Manifester level, and things that raise your ML or reduce points are few and far between for individual classes. I think with effort you can achieve something like a +24 effective Manifester level...which is enough for +15 armor (1 point spent on manifesting, plus 22 points to increase it by 11. Make it +16 if you can hit ML 25.).
Offensive Precognition gives you a +2 to a check ONCE during its duration, not sure why you think it's that great.
Defensive Precognition is, again, just AC. Nice to have, but nothing spectacular by any means, especially at high levels.
Tactical Precognition is neat, but combat maneuvers are very nearly worthless by 20th, and you have to spend quite a few points for it to outstrip your Weapon Enhancement Bonus on most of the more useful ones (Trip, Disarm, Shield Bash [the most useful form of Bull Rush], etc.). Solid for Dirty Trick, but that's about it. And you have to re-use it every combat.
Ditto above for Grip of Iron. Neato if you're a Grappler, not so much if you're not (and having played a Mythic Grappler up to 20th, it ain't hot s%&% after about 12th when it's just faster to Mythic Vital Strike a m**&+#~*%+%! instead of wasting time grappling them).
Compare/contrast Mirror Image or Displacement (the latter being able to be made permanent through a number of methods with Mythic in play) which trump most AC granting options by a mile, Haste (which, unlike Physical Acceleration, is multi-target), Shapechange (which makes True Metamorphosis feel small in the pants unless you're a Metamorph), Simulacrum/Planar Binding/Etc. shenanigans, and so on.
Just another case of someone not actually understanding Psionics.
Metaconcert.
Vital Strike Ooze.
Far Challenge.
In my honest opinion, Psionics is broken. So is Magic. Also, Martials.
We all make builds as ridiculous strong as we want or story based as we want. Then we come together at the end and talk over the numbers like adults and find a nice middle ground.
Even at +15 armor, that's better than +5 full plate (no max dex bonus), and it stacks with things like what monks get.
Also, combat maneuvers are *amazing* at 20th. I had to work very hard to convince myself I didn't want to make a dirty trick assassin, because they're basically too unfair at this point. (If you do it well, you can keep everyone within 30' of you stun-locked, forever, with no save)
And Offensive Precognition is +7 to hit on all attacks, until the end of the power. You're thinking of vanilla Precognition.
(Is there no Psionic Displacement? But that doesn't really matter, because a Ring of Displacement and Belt of Images are both super affordable and just as good as the spell except with far more uses/day).
Metaconcert
Discipline telepathy [mind-affecting]
Manifesting Time 1 minute
Range 20 ft.
Ooh, nice, Thunderbeard. Is it a true stun lock with time for you to act between or just a never ending contract stun lock?
Guys, if allowing psionics is going to cause this much friction and debate, I'll disallow it right here, right now.
I repeat from my above post:
THIS IS A FUN GAME
Yes, there will be serious plots and combats aplenty, but I want you all to be having fun playing.
If you're idea of fun is to how best to break the game, with these rules or others, please see your way out.
Can I get a post from each of you that includes race, class/levels, and general role?
Also, your likely mythic path.
Dark Tempest
Race: Elan hybrid (34 RP)Class: 20 Nimble Blade (Soulknife)/5 Dark Tempest || 20 Psi Warrior/5 Dark Tempest
Role: Skirmisher, Anti-mage, Anti-manifester.
Mythic: Dual Path Champion/Overmind
My goal is not to break anything, and I'd really prefer to keep the psionics.
I apologize for sort of starting us down the wrongbadfun path... I'm all for a fun game. I'll try to set aside my misgivings until the end of recruitment and then if I'm among the chosen, and if I can't get over my concerns about some of the rest of the party, then I'll make room for someone more excited about it at that point.
Oh... did people have a problem with psionics? I never said I thought they were broken, just at least as good as standard magics. But I'm all for whatever's easiest, I'm just here because I'm a legitimate character-creation addict.
But I'm all for whatever's easiest, I'm just here because I'm a legitimate character-creation addict.
Also guilty. I already sketched up a character concept and class combo for a character if you ban psionics.
I always have other ideas floating around, but I've spent a week working on this one already :P
If everybody can get along, and chill on the debating, I have no problem keeping Psionics. In fact, considering as how I was involved in helping design for it, I woul much prefer to allow them than not.
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^^^^like^^^^
Race: Leshay (Uber-elf)
Class: Wiz (teleport) 20/ arcane archer 2/ zen archer 3 || 20 cleric (fire/storm)/archer fighter 5
Role: utility/problem solver/ buff/debuffer
Mythic: Archmage
Race: Half Celestial Limbjack Dwarf Paragon
Class: Wiz Elementalist(Metal) 20/Mage of the 3rd Eye 5 || Forgemaster of Torag 20/ Divine Scion 1 Template 3 template 1
Role: Crafter, CC, Buffing, Healing.
Mythic: Archmage
Could I have a ruling on this,
My PC will be Incorporeal (Ex)
An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).
with the way Automatic Bonus Progression has been set out she will lose the +5 natural armor and be limited to +5 deflection.
Is that right? I was thinking it would move over giving +10 Max and no NA bonus, can that be done in any way?
To TCGs point earlier, I vote yes on psionic/magic transparency.
To TCGs point earlier, I vote yes on psionic/magic transparency.
I think its as a must or the game play will be nuts
I'm having a whole rethink of my PC, V a mate of mine.
we where talking and this idea popped out of a Spirit Elan,
I really like the idea, I know there will be come big limits placed on my PC now, but I love the idea so much I have to try.
LN Spirit Elan [Gestalt]
G1: Psion - Telepath L25
G2: Ghost template CR2 Dread - Nightmare Constructor L23
Mythic: [Overmind] M1.
Arguments about psionics vs. magic at this level boil down to your views on numbers vs. options. Personally I find high level psionics more disruptive, because you do not have to metagame planar bindings and similar options in order to severely throw off the balance of power in terms of core numbers.
You can claim that having acs and saves 10 or 15 points higher than everyone else doesn't matter, or that raw damage is meaningless, but you are wrong. Scaling on many numerical bonuses at the rate psionics scales at is a problem, especially in gestalt where you can easily of set any limitations. When you outpace everyone else by such a large margin it creates inherent difficulties in design and play, as to hit one person you cannot fail to hit everyone else, or to risk a failure everyone else auto fails. It makes the game binary for other players. In addition, psionics brings the best divination abilities in the game to the table, and an array of action economy abilities at high levels that are not available elsewhere.
Put more simply, used as intended psionics can create problems. Most off the worst caster exploits in contrast tend to rely on either a spineless gm, unforeseen rules interpretations and combinations, or similar.
Options are more readily able to be reacted to than raw numbers that are far out of the norm.
Take this to another thread (as if another thread on this topic is needed).
To TCGs point earlier, I vote yes on psionic/magic transparency.I think its as a must or the game play will be nuts
I'm having a whole rethink of my PC, V a mate of mine.
we where talking and this idea popped out of a Spirit Elan,
I really like the idea, I know there will be come big limits placed on my PC now, but I love the idea so much I have to try.LN Spirit Elan [Gestalt]
G1: Ghost template CR2 Psion - Telepath L23
G2: Ghost template CR2 Dread - Nightmare Constructor L23
Mythic: [Overmind] M1.
While we can split a PrC, I think templates had to stay on one side or the other.
I only have one "power using" psionic class. He is not a caster||caster, and would be harmed by that rule because both sides are psionic classes.
I'd say we'd be ok to pass a "no 9th level caster/manifester class on both sides on the gestalt" as it's a rule I use at home.
Someone played a Druid/Sorc once...
Maybe 9th || 0, 6th || 4th, or 4th || 4th would be ok, but no 9th || 6th or 6th || 6th?
EDIT: 6th || 6th might be ok...
Not keen on that at all, this is one of the few times I can build I psion to test out high level Ideas, and as been said, the Magic/psions debate should be on another thread its talking over a little bit here.
My PC idea has changed a bit now, just was getting what I wanted from the old one.
BACK STORY
long ago long ago before the Elan Counsel a group of high level psions worked to make a new race, the Elan race. Many attempts where made before they got the proses right. One such attempts resoled in The Sapphire Light. A psionic spirit, dead but alive, a thing of dreams and Nightmares. Millennia passed and The Sapphire Light grow into its life. It formed a place for itself, a realm of dreams. Called when need by the Elan Counsel to act in its behalf. The pain of its unbirth still after so long in its mind. It takes form from time to time. Entering the world for reasons of its own. Often in the form of a beautiful woman formed of blue light. She can take sold form, a thing of nightmares that can place fear in almost any mind. She has been know to work with Angels and Devils from time to time. Most only think of her as a myth that is until they dream of her