Myths and Legends(Heroes of Golarion)

Game Master Monkeygod

@Illia: Note that inertial armor will not stack with monk's armor bonus. The monk's armor bonus is in leiu of wearing armor. Armor bonuses do not stack with each other.

A word of caution to everyone. If there is an aspect of your build that is deemed overpowering or questionably interpreted, and you are asked to remove/modify it, this is not a valid defense:

"But my whole build is based on that one piece."

This suggests that you may have optimized your character to an unacceptable extreme.

I planned that if DT did not make something himself, he'd pay full price. In game it can be a gift, but mechanically it will come out of starting money.

RULE CLARIFICATION

I don't know that you're interpreting the Armor attunement thing correctly. It simply adds an enhancement bonus to an existing Armor bonus. So a character can have full plate (armor bonus of 9) and the Attunement adds up to +5 enhancement bonus for a total of 14 AC.

Just my 2 CP.

EDIT: Actually the monk's AC bonus is untyped, which stacks with everything.

As far as mind blades go, he can already enhance his blades up to +10 (+5 enhancement, +5 in other qualities), so unless he carries around a normal weapon, he won't benefit from the weapon attunement bonus at all.

Guess he could have one helluva boot knife :P

@Illia: Note that inertial armor will not stack with monk's armor bonus. The monk's armor bonus is in leiu of wearing armor. Armor bonuses do not stack with each other.

I am completely fine with that as a balance measure, but you are very wrong as far as rules go.

"AC 21, touch 17, flat-footed 19 (+4 armor, +1 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 monk, +1 size, +3 Wis)"

From Spry Ambusher "Pathfinder Roleplaying Game NPC Codex © 2012, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Jesse Benner, Jason Bulmahn, Adam Daigle, Alex Greenshields, Rob McCreary, Mark Moreland, Jason Nelson, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Patrick Renie, Sean K Reynolds, and Russ Taylor."

Monks using spells to get Armor bonus is very much RAW and RAI.

Of course, you can't enhance a spell, so my character is getting nothing out of the +5 from Automatic bonus progression there.

You do know that stat blocks are often wrong, right?

Would you like me to retrieve another few dozen samples?

Ageless Master

AC 34, touch 27, flat-footed 31 (+5 armor, +2 deflection, +2 Dex, +1 dodge, +5 monk, +2 natural, +7 Wis)

Sword Savant

AC 31, touch 27, flat-footed 25 (+4 armor, +2 deflection, +5 Dex, +1 dodge, +4 monk, +5 Wis)

Grove Guardian

AC 31, touch 27, flat-footed 24 (+4 armor, +1 deflection, +6 Dex, +1 dodge, +4 monk, +5 Wis)

Warren Chief

AC 30, touch 24, flat-footed 27 (+4 armor, +2 deflection, +2 Dex, +1 dodge, +4 monk, +2 natural, +1 size, +4 Wis)

Horse Monk

AC 26, touch 22, flat-footed 23 (+4 armor, +2 deflection, +2 Dex, +1 dodge, +4 monk, +3 Wis)

I don't even have to search. Literally every monk build I have clicked on made by paizo has an armor bonus and a note saying either "Bracers of Armor + ?" or "Drinks potion of Mage armor before battle".

If you want me to have a lower armor class because my choices are too optimized, by all means, just say so, and I will gladly comply.

Seriously, it'd be nice if you guys posted a guideline of the power level you want. Like, what to hit bonus, damage, saving throws, AC, you guys do not consider excessive. I need to know how much to nerf my build by.

Calm down.

Nobody has posted anything like that because not many characters have been completed fully and submitted.

Thus, we have no way to determine power level.

Chill out.

Also, discussing how much we should have for buying things like demiplanes, castles, shops, etc, via downtime costs.

Do you think it should come out of the 1.2 million? I'm inclined to say no, but honestly, I have no idea how much magickal items will end up being even with the ABP.

If it does not, what would be a good amount? I've suggested 300k while my brother was thinking an additional 1 million.

None of this could be spent on anything like magic items or anything else like that, but on downtime stuff, permanency, mercenaries(beyond followers), etc.

I also fully agree with what Fnord said in regards to crafting feats, and magic item creation.

15 From Wis, 9 from dex, 5 from being monk equivalent level 20, 5 from competence, 2 dodge from feats, 10 from the Automatic Bonus Progression, 22 from a metaconcert Inertial Armor.

Deflection/Competence AC bonuses do or do not count towards CMD?

Hmm, where's the competence bonus from? +5 is pretty hefty.

Also, you're hitting a 37-pp inertial armor... which means a 12 to 17-person metaconcert... which requires a 23-pp metaconcert (at ML 25; if you're at ML 20, it requires a 33-pp metaconcert)... which means wheels within wheels, oh my gosh

Bracers of Armor are reduced to no more than 3 level of magical properties and have no AC bonus.

And ah... this is new. That means Bracers of Armor top out at +5 instead of the classic +8, which will make monks trickier.

Monk's Robe should not give an AC bonus. Do monks also lose their AC bonus as this was in lieu of armor, which nobody needs anymore?

Oh my gosh noooo. +5 Celestial Plate can give you a +14 armor bonus. With bracers of armor +5, a level 20 monk's only at +10 (sure, the wisdom makes up the difference, but the monk also loses an extra +6 or +7 AC from not carrying a shield)

Also, discussing how much we should have for buying things like demiplanes, castles, shops, etc, via downtime costs.

Do you think it should come out of the 1.2 million? I'm inclined to say no, but honestly, I have no idea how much magickal items will end up being even with the ABP.

I'd keep it out of the 1.2 million. I've currently got about 300k set aside for that (including the demiplane, but my demiplane is just a single room with a desk.

I was thinking about the monk armor issue. I realized that I had erred, as the monk bonus is a) untyped, b) designed to replace the mundane armor bonus, not the magical enhancement.

Celestial Plate +5 for AC 14 is now Celestial Plate for AC 9. NO MAGICAL ENHANCEMENT BONUS!

Bracers of Armor give a magical armor bonus. They were designed to replace the magical bonus of armor. I did error in the value, they can have up to 7 levels of magical properties, but NO MAGICAL ENHANCEMENT BONUS! You either reduce the price per the table, or trade out for other bonuses.

People should keep in mind. If it is magic, and gives a bonus to AC or to-hit. It is likely not allowed with ABP.

I'll leave it to Monkeygod to determine if the monk armor bonus (intended to replace mundane armor, and incompatible with said armor) is also incompatible with inertial armor.

I would really like 1mil for Her Demi plane, it would pay for all the staff she has working for her.

I did not realize that Tiny Coffee Golem and I were working on a very similar concept of a wizard/cleric crafter.

Perhaps I shall work on something else.

Bracers of Armor were meant to provide an armor bonus for those that can't or choose not to wear traditional armor, at a high price. All it provides is armor.
It provides the armor in a magical way, but it is not an enhancement bonus, which is what the ABP provides. You should treat Bracers of Armor like padded armor, up to a suit of half plate (1 - 8 AC) with no ACP, appreciable weight, arcane spell failure or speed reduction.
Or you can think of it as mage armor. It provides an armor bonus, which is why it does not stack with other armors, but it does stack with enhancement bonuses, because they are different bonuses.

It says in the description for bracers of armor that you can create them with only an armor bonus, up to 8 AC, or you can trade all but one out for other armor enchantments. This does not make the bonus provided by the bracers an enhancement bonus, it limits their abuse during creation of the item.

I see no reason why a pair of straight 8 AC bracers of armor could not then be attuned. There is no verbiage in the rules for ABP that call it out specifically, so I'm forced to assume they act as any other item that provides an armor bonus.

If we, as a group, decide not to go this way, then fine. But know it's a caveat to RAW, imho.

Bracers of armor cannot normally be given an enhancement bonus to armor, because the effect they provide are not a suit of armor, shield, or set of clothing that can be enchanted. Like, how one can't enchant mage armor. In fact, they are very much like a permanent mage armor effect, with some extra nifty rules for scaling and swapping out for magical bonuses. And while they provide a bonus equivalent to a set of non-magical armor, or a no-enhancement bonus armor, they aren't, for both the penalties and the good times that involves.

~~

Alright, so I'm not quite sure I understand the rules for weapons where the Automatic Bonus Progression is concerned.

Let's say I want the merciful enchantment. That comes off my +5 allowable bonus, meaning my weapon is now +4 Merciful, AND I have to buy it for 2000 gold, right?

~~

And yes, Thunder, ML 25. Spot on calculations.

I went ahead and said, "Metaconcert is strong enough, let's not bother trying to ask if I can stack stuff like Beads of Karma and Eldritch Aid through spell/psionic transparency."

That said, my non-psionic cohort will totally be using Beads of Karma and Eldritch Aid to make her stuff harder to dispel.

From ABP:
"Items that only grant bonuses to AC, saving throws, and ability scores don't exist in this variant"
"If she selects a normal set of clothing as her armor, it counts as having a starting enhancement bonus of +0."

These two statements a) allow the monk to attune for the armor bonus, b) remove BoA.

Consider this, without ABP, what would the AC be for the monk? It should not be higher with ABP.

It should go without saying that amulet of mighty fists would also be removed from the game.

Here's what happens when you wear Bracers of Armor +8, and apply a plus +5 enhancement bonus to your clothes.

"I have a force effect providing me +8 Armor, and clothes granting me +5 Armor. Armor bonuses do not stack. Use higher bonus."

Except in cases where your spell creates a real and physical object, you cannot enchant a spell effect. You cannot pay money to make a say, a (somehow permanent) force weapon attacky thing (I forget the spell name) a +5 force weapon attacky thing. Which would also preclude it from being attuned ala Automatic Bonus Progression.

Spiritual Weapon. That's the thingy.

I'm sorry, I'm not following you.

I did not realize that Tiny Coffee Golem and I were working on a very similar concept of a wizard/cleric crafter.

Perhaps I shall work on something else.

Two high level theurges could be fine if you're set on the concept. We just need to be sure to differentiate ourselves. Frankly mythic crafter is hard not to take.

Well, I'm sorry, I don't know how to explain my case any further.

~~

Yeah, two high level spellcasters can be very mechanically different simply depending on the spells they have prepared.

WizA: Did... Did you prepare ANYTHING other than magic missile?
WizB: Whee! Force Damage!

From ABP:
"Items that only grant bonuses to AC, saving throws, and ability scores don't exist in this variant"

I missed that line. That would be Bracers of Armor (or any suit of armor, the way it's worded, since all they do is grant an armor bonus, but I digress...). The logic here is that it balances out with the APB, but in fact all is does is screw casters and monks who don't want to wear armor to gain an armor bonus.

You were correct though. Sorry for the hassle.

Fair enough, I will be a clockwork/dwarf intent bent on building things to benefit all of the world. And I will live in an automated living city that I constantly tinker with. It's underground, only accessible by a bronze wizard tower on the surface.

Not sure how it is "screwing the monks and wizards".

The next line I quoted says that clothing can be enchanted as armor.
So the monks and wizards get to have an armor enhancement bonus.

The rules would suggest that BoA are gone. I suggested that they still existed but could not give an AC bonus.

So attuning to BoA and then having holy bracers of armor would seem fine to me.

Kryzbyn, just get yourself a wand of say, CL 8 Mage Armor, and make one of your followers UMD or a sufficient level wizard.

I know Illia, it's so easily subverted by other means it's silly to make a distinction for BoA, is exactly my point.

In a normal game, a monk can wear BoA and enchant something else to grant Enhancement bonuses to AC, on top of WIS and level AC bonus.

In this game they can do the same with out BoA. It's not higher because of ABP. It's just cheaper.

It's really not that big of a deal, I guess. I'll let it go.

As far as cohorts and followers, I assume DT's cohort would run his school while he went and handled business, and his followers would be students or other teachers.

What were you all planning?

Validk runs an import/export business throughout the world, his followers generally work in these locations, providing a low key information gathering network that he can call on when he visits various areas.

Often, he and his cohort travel around these various locations, meeting up to compare notes, and on occasion, go off and save the world together.

Hmm...good idea.

Here is an excerpt from Validk.

FYI - His google doc character sheet is 26 pages long, with internal bookmarks, and hyperlinks to d20pfsrd. But then, this is the original incarnation that was in three epic games, all dying in or after their first adventure.

You can't use mage armor/BoA and enhancement together. Because, in the case of armor and shields, the enhancement is applied first to the Armor bonus of what it is improving, and then to your armor class as an Armor Bonus.

We don't see a +2 chain shirt giving (+4 Armor, +2 Enhancement) in a statblock, we see (+6 Armor).

So, if you have mage armor/BoA +4, and a +5 enhancement bonus on your shirt, you have a mystical force armor that gives +4 Armor bonus, and a shirt that gives +5 Armor bonus. Against incorporeal effects, you use the +4, but against everything else, your armor is +5. Two armor bonuses don't stack.

So, you can use Enhancement OR BoA/Spells. But they won't stack. Because you can't enhance the BoA/Spell directly.

At least, that's my interpretation.

In other words,

A monk can use BoA with with their monk bonus. If they wear armor, they lose the monk bonus, and only get the higher of the BoA or their armor.

A monk with an ABP armor bonus on their t-shirt also gets their monk bonus. They can enchant their t-shirt with additional enchantments, (like holy), with legendary gifts they can get up to +5 AC and +5 levels of properties through +1 enhancement and 9 levels of properties.

What a monk CAN'T get is their monk bonus, the ABP bonus, and the BoA bonus.

Say, how much does it cost to make a sailing ship fly via magic?

I'm considering whether I want to have my "home base" be a flying ship from a pirate they've encountered in their adventures, or if they've actually settled down somewhere and started making a temple.

Similarly, how do the Automatic Bonus Progression rules work with siege engines?

Fair enough, I will be a clockwork/dwarf intent bent on building things to benefit all of the world. And I will live in an automated living city that I constantly tinker with. It's underground, only accessible by a bronze wizard tower on the surface.

Yea. That's very different from mine. He's an elf-y elf arcane archer God wizard type. His cleric levels are elemental( Fire:Air) His "God" is more of a image respect for primal elemental forces than a traditional church.

We can both play this and not step on each other. We can role play an opposites attract kind of friendship if you like.

Unless I'm missing something, the AC bonus from Inertial Armor is +16, as the bonus increases for every two manifester levels you have.

Remember, you can only spend a number of Power Points on a single power equal to your manfiester level.

Also, Illia, its a little silly to assume you're going to have 5 friends just hanging out with you all the time to be brought into a metaconcert whenever you so desire.

Sure, they're your followers(I'm assuming) but they very likely won't be coming on adventures with you. Thus, once that initial duration runs out, you're back to manifesting on your own.

I'm fine with that. Metaconcert did feel a bit cheesy.

That said, given the duration of a full Metaconcert IA and the travelling capabilities of a post greater teleport group mean I may get a lot done in that duration.

~~

So, let's say I want to have a Distance Reliable Fiend's Mouth Cannon on the fore of my theoretical ship. That's 9000 base weapon, 300 masterwork, 8000 base +2 abilities worth of enchantment (times two because siege weapon). Unless someone with level 14 or higher attunes to it, it'll have no enhancement bonus (apart from masterwork +1 to hit), and if a level 14 person does attune to it, it'll be a +1 Distance Reliable Fiend's Mouth Cannon. Do I have this correct?

Can I still cast Magic Siege Engine on it to temporarily give it a +5 Enhancement bonus?

I like hearing about the theurge types- it makes me feel better about my idea for the divine caster (who may be joining you all in still having poor saves and not having full BAB). I'm pretty certain I'm going to go cleric of Nethys for one half; the other half I'm trying to decide between a lore oracle or a speaker of the past shaman with the lore spirit. Having the spontaneous casting would be nice for flexibility, but shaman shares a casting stat and diversifies the spell list more.

Thoughts?

It's not too hard to pump up more than one stat at this level and ruleset, as Thunderbeard demonstrated to me. So, you should base it more on the flexibility/spell list choice than sharing a casting stat.

My highest stat is Wis at 38. My next is Cha at 30.

While Inquisitor and Warpriest play off of Wis, Paladin is Cha based and I also wanted a high Leadership score.

Which reminds me:

Everybody gets +3 to their Leadership score for great renown and special power. I will let you decide if you are fair and generous as well as if you take any penalties.

For followers, we also get the +2 for a base. Even if you don't have one, or its a private, personal, unknown demiplane, you can still get the bonus. Just makes sense at this level.

Awesome.

Say, anyone know of good Sūn Wùkōng pics? I'm having a hard time finding one with the right mix of trickster, monk, and warrior.

Good question.

I see two options:

1) Siege engines may be enchanted as normal, players may not attune a siege engine.

2) Siege engines may not be enchanted just like other weapons, players must attune the siege engine to apply an enhancement bonus or level properties.

I'm inclined to option 1 as option two is a discount.

I could see a metaconcert coming together for a planed event. "Tomorrow we dive into the Worldwound! Let us make merry tonight, for bright and early we must prepare!"

I agree with option 1.

I feel like allowing you to attune a siege engine is both clunky and doesn't seem to fit the thematic concept of as you personally gain more power aka leveling, you also gain these enhancements to yourself, and your personal armaments.

Also,
Unless somebody strongly disagrees, I think having an extra 1 million for things like towns, fortresses, demiplanes, teams, etc, is what I'm going to go with.

I know its a LOT, but if you have a vast amount of excess, I have faith you guys can get creative enough to spend it all.

Or you know, put it in a bank lol

Well, with option one in effect, making it so my ship doesn't have a 50ish percent chance of blowing itself up everytime it broadsides will cost about 400k. And that's before asking how much it costs to make the darn thing fly. I think I'll be good on spending the money. :P

Regarding demiplanes and the like:

Since I'm an uber caster I was only planning on using the wealth for personal gear.

There are many many ways for a high level caster to have effectively infinite wealth.

For the rest of it I was just going to pick stuff that makes sense. An elven wizardry college and a lot of demiplanes, a manor in the elven capital, for example. I wasn't going to track any of that. It's simply accrued over the last few thousand years I've been alive.

None of it will really be a real mechanical benefit. Just stuff I use etc.

My 2c

@Monkeygod
You did notice that Validk has 9 businesses, one of which is a college, another is a mansion, and his total cost to build was a bit over 50k.

I could just kinda own most cities in Golarion with that much money.

@Illia
So in your first question, you asked about a 14th level character using attunement on a distance reliable siege engine. You asked about casting magic siege engine.

In your second comment, you seemed upset that we would expect the weapon to be enchanted normally, which would mean that the level 14 character doesn't get to give it free enhancement bonuses.

In addition, I have not found a link stating that reliable would apply to siege weapons, they are their own category from firearms. CORRECTION: some might be firearms.

Fiend's mouth is a direct fire weapon, and the spell MSE would act as magic weapon. You would need to have Greater MSE to get a +5 enhancement bonus.

I could not see where the misfire was more than a 5% chance. And taking a feat removes that.

Nah, I wasn't upset. I was just saying I'd find a way to use the whole 1 mil.

Oh, nifty! Yay for feats!

I was talking about how, when you've got 12 5% chances to blow yourself up, you've got a decent chance of failing at least one on any given broadside. And thanks for the GMSE catch.

Another question is whether Siege Weapon shots are touch attacks. The visualization of a ship firing all its cannons into a leviathan is pretty nifty.

And, to ask the question more directly, are you guys willing to let me enchant a ship to fly? As far as I'm aware, there isn't a way to do this in the rules, so we'd need to come up with a cost.

Here is an excerpt from Validk.

** spoiler omitted **...

Where did you get the values from?

From ABP:

"Items that only grant bonuses to AC, saving throws, and ability scores don't exist in this variant"
"If she selects a normal set of clothing as her armor, it counts as having a starting enhancement bonus of +0."

These two statements a) allow the monk to attune for the armor bonus, b) remove BoA.

Consider this, without ABP, what would the AC be for the monk? It should not be higher with ABP.

This specifically means a monk's AC is LOWER with ABP. They can only hit a max of +5 with ABP, replacing the +8 they could normally get from BoA. While ABP can take legendary gifts up to +5 of abilities, armor abilities are terrible compared to the extra +. So it's a -3 AC penalty on all monks and wizards, unless I'm allowed to use my legendary gifts to mimic a Bracers of Armor. (or find a way to get Inertial Armor). This can be worked around (monks and wizards are a bit OP), but it is an unambiguous small nerf.

Another question is whether Siege Weapon shots are touch attacks. The visualization of a ship firing all its cannons into a leviathan is pretty nifty.

And, to ask the question more directly, are you guys willing to let me enchant a ship to fly? As far as I'm aware, there isn't a way to do this in the rules, so we'd need to come up with a cost.

No, Siege Weapons are never touch attacks (unless they're cannons within 30'). They're better—under indirect fire rules, you roll to hit a square instead of an enemy. (Remember Runcible? I can tell you about how that build functions in combat if you want, but you'll need good int and wizard spells to use siege weapons effectively)

Also, RAW there are exactly two ways to enchant a ship to fly:
1) Use Craft Construct + Animated Object
2) Buy an airship; Ultimate Combat has several options, though they're not very Golarion.

Yeah, I didn't like option 2. And... Ooooh, Option 1...

Also, found this, "Crew leaders with the Siege Engineer feat do not lower the misfire value of firearm siege engines."

And, you can only take bombards if you want indirect fire black powder weapons. Which, I suppose is fine. I'll just take a mix.

Option 1 is basically how every Skull & Shackles game ends...