If you mean only vs. firearms then sure. If you mean using the amor as DR rules in general, those are pretty bad. Critters end up ripping people to shreds as they ignore the armor DR all the time at high level.
Though I think it might be simpler to just get rid of the touch attack business as I suggest.
No, I meant vs Firearms only.
I think it would also give the same feel when hitting big bosses, where you fire and fire and the bullets seem to bounce a lot.
Of course I'm making an invulnerable rager, so I'm stuck wondering if the armor DR will stack with my DR.
DR/Armor always stacks with other DR, so yes, it would.
DR/Armor: This type of DR blocks the damage of all attacks that would normally be affected by DR, based on the composition of the armor (see Table 5–1). Unlike most forms of damage reduction, DR/armor stacks with other types of DR. For instances, when fighting a skeleton with DR 5/bludgeoning and DR 4/armor (+2 for armor, +2 for natural armor), the skeleton's DR/armor reduces 9 points of damage from non-bludgeoning attacks, and 4 damage from bludgeoning weapon attacks. Magic weapons and attacks from Large or larger creatures bypass the DR 4/armor, but not the DR 5/bludgeoning.
Ah ok. That's a bit inconsistent since for example in normal armor rules, adamantine DR from armor doesn't stack with other DR (except the 19th level fighter ability).
I have not said it to the new recruits yet. I will not have many guns, there will be specialists who can create or augment guns for you.
But overall there will be many different kinds of drops, mostly magical weapons.
This world is Pandora in a D&D setting. Some things are different, but many of the creatures will be the same from the game. More creatures from the D&D setting, let alone the many different races.
Pandora is a mining penal colony. Most of the jailers are gone or dead. Thus bandits rule the gangs and thus regions on the world.
I like Velden's idea of using armor for DR. Does anyone have the link for the rules usage handy?
Going with your case:
Most body armor that would stop a bullet would not stop a blade.
Thus a choice would need to be made in what armor you wear.
Understand most of your enemies will not have much armor on.
On Pandora, most bandits and residents are scavengers, searching out what works the best for their survival. There are some producers though they are not mass producers of armor, but rather weapons.
____________________
I would ask that all players vote if they want to incorporate the armor as DR. With special cases where armor can be made for protecting against firearms, as others are against slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning.
Though I would say that Heavy armor would have 3/-, medium 2/-, and light 1/-. At least until we find the rules. But you could also have your armor specialize against a certain kind of attack, gaining double the DR?
Yes normal DR would stack with what I am proposing.
Then again perhaps we just leave it vs. firearms.
Actually if you have high enough tech materials, you can make armor proof against both blades and bullets. The reason most current armor is not so hot against blades is that it is soft armor composed of (pick your composite fiber) woven into a cloth. The ballistic cloth dissipates energy over an area and resists penetration. In a world with appreciably more advanced materials, and threats to justify it, you could do hard armor which would easily resist both (hence the nano-structured steel with nanotubes both being used). Were I to be the designer, it would like be a matter of layering the materials.
In classical plate armor, you would generally have a suit of hard plates over most everything, with padding everywhere and/or chain mail to cover up weak spots. You could make a hard metal armor shell (perhaps a ceramic, but those tend to get to fracture failure after very few impacts evemn if they are stronger up front, so I would favor a very strong metal instead) over a padding suit which incorporated the ballistic protection. Current reasonable threat level vests (IIIA) are pretty damned light and comfortable if you don't use the plates.
True I see your point Bishnu, though on Pandora, only if you were apart of a corporation or had access to a corporation would that tech be available to you. You might be able to find some of that armor here or there but it would be rare.
Still any amor available will have to be based on decent tech or it likely wouldn't be bothered with. I don't expect to find cutting edge armor in a backwater, but still putting on soft body armor against bullets would be wearable under any metal armor designed against critters or melee weapons.
There's also the idea that if we play with armor enough to be 'realistic' in the setting, all the normal weapons become unusable.
Then we're in an arms race.
It might be better to just assume both weapons and armor have kept pace and achieved equality?
So Velden's not firing wooden shafts and steel heads, he's firing aluminum shafts and compressed nuetronium heads, which are too hard/sharp to be fired from a firearm, but work very well from a bow. Bullets are still lead but the powder firing them is more powerful. etc.
Blades are laser etched, with monofiliment edges. Maces use the same compressed neutronium to get their damage up through armor.
Well this goes back to my premise that we should just keep things as is, but without the bullet special treatment (which in my experience breaks the game since touch AC does not at all scale with level).
Yup I agree with you Bishnu, we will keep the armor as is and shooting a gun will need to hit their normal AC.
arr man Bishnu Saving you PCs just wasted mine PC,
missed all this so did not get to say a word on it and I think its wrong
not happy my PC just go Nerft big time by this.
Counter view,
Guns should be touch or All AC Dex base classes and skills/feats are dead in the water. You end up with knights in full plate uses guns with -Dex skills and sill being fine wile any one with Dex and guns is dead.
There is a reason why Knights stopped using full plate the ended up dead real fast with a fire arm blasting holes in a big Slow guy, making them bullet poor is just dumb.
Any PC with High dex and deflection bounces is now topped by a plate.
Don't forget Pathfinder has limited guns to fit the DnD setting, they Jam, they take time to load and they have very short range.
You want Bullet porff tanks then lets have real ranges 100'
Real high rites of fire and DumDum or armor [Steal piercing rounds]
No I agree with DR, as DR / bludgeoning or piercing etc
Armor that made to stop rounds is not Plate + armor Its
ballistic armor.
In this magic world you get deflection bonuses as well.
But Touch to full TH is just wrong and brakes the game for guns uses
and high dex PC players alike and it just broke my PC.
No happy at all with that
Why I suggested using Armor as DR, doesn't nerf dex based people, does provide some defense to low dex high armor people.
Armor as Damage Reduction
Armor in this system keeps all of its normal statistics and qualities, but its armor bonus (including any enhancement bonus added to armor bonus and natural armor bonus) is converted to DR/armor. The DR an armor provides is equal to its total armor bonus with a +1 bonus at 5th level or at 5 Hit Dice, with an increase to that bonus of +1 for every five levels above 5th level, or every 5 Hit Dice over 5 Hit Dice (to a maximum of +4 to DR at 20th level or at 20 or more Hit Dice), provided that the creature wearing the armor is also proficient with the armor.
Using Armor without Proficiency: Creatures using armor they are not proficient with do not gain the bonus per level or Hit Dice to the DR, on top of any of the other normal penalties for using armor without proficiency.
DR/Armor: This type of DR blocks the damage of all attacks that would normally be affected by DR, based on the composition of the armor (see Table 5–1). Unlike most forms of damage reduction, DR/armor stacks with other types of DR. For instances, when fighting a skeleton with DR 5/bludgeoning and DR 4/armor (+2 for armor, +2 for natural armor), the skeleton's DR/armor reduces 9 points of damage from non-bludgeoning attacks, and 4 damage from bludgeoning weapon attacks. Magic weapons and attacks from Large or larger creatures bypass the DR 4/armor, but not the DR 5/bludgeoning.
Natural Armor Bonus and DR: Like a creature's armor bonus, a natural armor bonus is also converted into damage reduction. If a creature is wearing armor and has a natural armor bonus, the creature adds its armor bonus to its natural armor bonus to determine the amount of DR/armor that it has (see Table 5–2).
For instance, if a creature wearing a +2 chain shirt has DR 6/armor is then subject to a barkskin spell cast by a 6th-level druid (gaining a +3 natural armor bonus), its DR becomes DR 9/armor for the duration of the spell. This DR is bypassed by adamantine, or the attacks of Huge or larger creatures.
A creature that has both DR from a source other than armor and a natural armor bonus gains the effects of an enhanced form of DR, similar to how the composition of the armor grants special DR/armor defenses (see Table 5–1). If a creature has magical armor, natural armor, and DR, it takes the best form of the special protection provided by both its armor and its mix of DR and natural armor to its DR/armor.
For instance, if a creature has natural armor and DR/magic and is wearing adamantine armor, that creature's DR/armor functions as DR/—, and can be bypassed by Gargantuan or larger creatures, since the adamantine armor provides the best of the two damage reductions.
Unusual Creatures and Armor DR: Amorphous or incorporeal creatures have an easier time bypassing DR/armor. When they attack a creature with DR/armor, they typically treat that DR as a fraction of the DR/armor. Attacks by incorporeal creatures entirely ignore the DR unless that DR comes from a force effect or from armor with the ghost touch special armor quality. These traits are detailed in Table 5–3.
Please explain Aannra how 'All AC Dex base classes and skills/feats are dead in the water'
Guns are Emerging in this game. So there will be very few and far between from seeing guns.
_____________
Though with our discussion above, only if you have the newest body armor, pricing around 5,000 to 30,000 gp, would your normal AC need to be reached. Creatures and almost all occupants of Pandora would not be covered in this rule. Does this work for everyone?
Then keep it as is GM, why change it to fit one PC if they are so uncommon?
I think that she's saying that if guns use normal AC, then the dex based builds (which are the natural result of guns, and why we don't wear heavy armor anymore) are actually the worst build, since a low dex high AC build is harder to hit from both normal weapons and firearms.
The thing firearms do is make you choose which you're more worried about, conventional weapons (swords and bows) vs firearms. If you're more worried about guns, you go high dex low armor build, and you are vulnerable to melee/bows. If you're more worried about melee/bows, then you go high ac/low dex and try to avoid firearms.
The proposed change takes that off the table, You just do a high ac low dex build and you're golden against everything, and low armor high dex builds are still overcome by the disparity that is BAB progression at mid to high levels.
Both the guns and protection for them would be common place in space and on normal planets. Here on Pandora things rust and dissolve with the force of the acidity of the planets environment let alone its creatures. Protection from guns are as rare if not more rare than the guns themselves.
A boss may have that protection, but his AC would likely be a detriment for the entire group not just the revolver weilding PC, let alone in that fight you are going to be needing to heal and buff like crazy. :)
Ahh that makes sense Velden. Yes and that makes sense, though who can dodge a bullet. :) LOL
then why change the rules, I was going to post but
Velden beat me to it, all he said was what I was going to ssy
why change any thing now, I built my PC one way. High dex gun use.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Soldier's dodge bullets all the time. They just don't dodge them once they are fired. They dodge them by making themselves hard to aim at. You can't do that in heavy armor (one major reason why guns got rid of plate mail).
It's the difference between the guys in vests running in zig-zag formation from cover to cover and the guy in the bomb disposal suit.
The guy in the bomb disposal suit isn't all that worried about someone shooting him with an arrow or hitting him with a sword or mace. But a guy with a pistol is going to put 30 rounds in him before he can cover 100 ft.
The guys with the vests have to worry about bows and knives, but they're quick, mobil, and only have to worry about a few shots at them in that 100 ft. Plus their zig-zag makes them harder to aim at.
Think about this GM, how would you feel if you logged on to find another player had said
"Do you mind if I have the rules changed to make my PC a lot tougher and yours a lot weaker, all Ok with you"
I can't get over how unhappy I am about this so late in the game, PC built high Dex gun skills and made for that just to have the guy in Medieval plate say, No fair.
DR or Magic for custom made Armor yes but placing all guns under Normal AC and taking away from Aannra any real chance to shoot any thing, its not just him that make get shot at but every bad thing she shoots at.
Also there is Alien weapons and magic that works on Touch, shall we make all them Normal AC?
I am not trying to be a pain here just trying to get over that fact one request just broke my PC.
Mr. Bishnu Tank was scared of all the guns I was going to pull out. No worries man, there are about a dozen guns you are going to face, besides Aannra's and Five's. :)
I can see how you feel, and we were discussing it. I was just making a call until everyone chimed in. I get it Aannra and I am sorry. Trust me it happens more that you can imagine when working with new items such as guns, psionics, and other magic items too. That is why we discuss it. :)
Thanks GM and the thing is I did limit Aannra to not make her a total gun head, two auto guns blazing with ecto rounds, there is a spell and power that makes rounds, or a rifle with Admantiam rounds, I kept her simple and real.
I have every intention of abusing abundant ammunition on my quiver...
...once I can actually cast said spell...
:)
The gun argument doesn't really affect me much as my AC is kind of average/poor for gestalt. So I'd be hit either way.
Though I must ask, just out of curiosity. If guns work the same way as bows (hit normal AC) normally, would that invalidate high Dex builds? I mean I come from a mostly 3.5 background where hitting touch AC was usually reserved for spells. So all ranged hit AC, I've not seen it damage builds like that before. I mean you can still make use of deadly shot and other such abilities.
(The reason magic hits touch AC since I saw you bring it up there, is because of the disparity of BAB between spellcasters and scaling AC)
Sure your character has been depowered a little but I wouldn't call it 'broken' considering +8 to hit a target is the same as a bow wielder isn't it? For basically the same damage? I would say if we are making it the same then scrap the higher costs of gun ammo. As the reason the ammo costs a bundle is because they hit touch AC, but you get free rounds anyway so not much of an issue there.
Sorry just the hyperbola of 'taking away from Aannra any real chance to shoot any thing' just made me jump a little. Considering you have changed from hitting things on 3-4s (since touch AC is usually low) to hitting things at the standard of a normal bow wielder, you will still be hitting things.
The problem is that Dex doesn't scale, but BAB does.
Most turtle builds are full BAB builds.
BAB outstrips armor faster unless you're doing full plate turtle builds. THe Dex build can't do that, so his AC ends up topping out in the low 30's, while the turtle tops out in the mid to upper 40's. Add on to that that the turtle will have full bab, and that a turtle fighter can spend a bunch of feats on weapon focus/specialization to overcome the dex bonus the high dex rogue has, and by level 20, the ranged turtle fighter is slaughtering the high dex rogue build.
I did not say could not hit
I pointed out she was lose out to let a Tank, tank guns, seems a but unfair
Nurft Dex build for ACs as above is still that Nurfting a PC.
Also
Bows
1: Don't Jam
2: Get Str added to some, and cross bows
3: Have a load more skills class and feats at core
4: Are cheap
5: you don't need a kit to fix em.
When pathfinder Gun rules where made all the points you rased where also, it was felt the Broken factor of Guns and the fact DMG / Range is limited
evened out. + a build o use them lose out on other things
Crossbows are closer to guns, perhaps I should've used that example. However what I was suggesting earlier is if we want guns to hit normal AC, then remove the downsides to guns. (scrap the cost and the jamming). They have plenty of feats, even at core. The only feat you couldn't take that a bow wielder could is Manyshot, (since it specifies bow). You do lose out on strength I suppose.
(Sorry if I did misinterpret what you meant, not my intention there, but I did quote you.)
@Velden: I can see that it does eventually outclass it but a rogue has more than his Dex, if we were trying for fighter turtle vs fighter Dex, more of an apt comparison I'm sure the margin would be smaller. It would still tip towards the turtle though. As for high level games, yea I know there are a LOT of problems up there. Both here and in 3.5, I don't want to get into build arguments for the high end here. (More than happy to discuss in PM though as I do actually like discussing the numbers)
I mean it about spells/powers TRA could be dropped if higher level BAB is something not to consider then why are they touch. So the core thing is all this changing of rules, feats , skills class feature and now and changing how guns them selfs work as well.
Do all that, Why not just keep it as, That why my whole builds not penalized to have one other PC feel safe from a tiny number of guns on a low tech planet. It just seems like massive overkill, and overly complicated to me and down right unfair.
As I said think about it, your asking my PV who gets 1 shot a round and can only ever do 1d8 with a 20 crit that dos 20 DMG [less than the tank when raging] if lucky and confirmed. With a gun that jams just as likely 1's
Your asking me to take a added down side with a massively complicated rules shift on top.
I hope you see my point here
Not terribly fussed by using armor as DR rules, provided that I don't get short-changed by getting my AC bonus from sources other than armor (monk wisdom-to-AC, etc)
Erm.. okay .. now you've just lost me. I didn't see much talk about change in the long thread of back and forth about changing feats or skills. (Just DR, which isn't changing incidently, and now the AC thing)
If you make spells against normal AC most of them would never hit, doing so with guns doesn't do that. It merely makes them less likely to hit instead of most, if not always hit. Which is why, I suggested removing the downside to guns. Seems you have missed me saying that?
Also have I missed something again? Which massively complicated rules shift are we talking about? The only rule shift that the GM has suggested is 'guns hit normal AC'.
I understand that it would be unfair just to make guns hit AC which is why I suggested getting rid of their downsides? Though can we not talk in exaggerated ways. You say things like; 'massive overkill', 'overly complicated' and changing 'core things'. However the only change that was suggested to take place again (so far) is guns hit normal AC.
If that were the case (working within GM ruling), I am suggesting a compromise that would buff your character back up? I.e. remove all the downsides: no jamming, cost less, extended range. So your character is wielding guns still but isn't penalized for it compared to if she were wielding crossbows.
The fact that someone is advocating that the change should require that firearms be 'buffed' up to the point where it's the same as if the gunfighter were using crossbows should REALLY be a red flag that a major nerf bat was taken, considering that it has long been lamented that cross-bows are the absolute worst possible build in D&D/PF through multiple rules versions.
Let's be clear here, it is only the worst build in 3.5/PF not in all D&D. Only reason for that in 3.5/PF is that crossbows themselves have very little entry requirements and they are designed that way. So that low levels can get an easy ranged attack.
Also you are missing my point, I am talking from a hit ratio perspective and just using crossbows as a comparison as they have more crossover feats than bows to guns. The gun still has other advantages over a crossbow that I have not listed. Like:
The disparity between Gun and Bow if you reduce the costs and get rid of jamming is Bows get strength and Manyshot. Whereas guns can apply grit powers and capability of dual wielding them.
The premise that I'm picking on dex builds is utter rubbish. Anyone who's done DPR calcs already knows that bows and guns in the Pathfinder system are far more devastating than any other option. (real bows, not crossbows, those are jokes) Both archers and gunslingers are dex focused builds and do really sick stuff when designed right.
Also claims that a dex build won't scale boggles my mind, where did their BAB go? Oh, you mean a dex build which relies on ACs never going up because they get to exploit touch AC? Why didn't you say that in the first place.
The fact is that the touch AC rule for firearms in PF was ill considered. It makes it so that one type of weapon ignores a primary defense mechanic, and in fact gets easier to hits target as you level as opposed to every other attack means which faces defenses which scale with level. Just look at the touch ACs on high CR monsters and you will get my point. In general the touch AC decreases with CR.
I more get the impression that Aannra is upset because the free lunch of touch ACs might go away when they chose a medium BAB class to take advantage of it.
You cannot find a rational person who would say a gunslinger is gimped, or even close to the bottom half of DPR. This is even if you took away their touch AC ability. However you didn't choose to build on the Gunslinger which would make you a true badass with guns. You just chose to make a character using guns and slide through a loophole.
The truth is, PF does an awful job of simulating guns. At times it is broken in both directions. The worst offenders are the early guns which are utterly preposterous in their rules (free action to reload a muzzle loader? Really?). The more modern stuff is better, but considering the failure rate they set on revolvers, it is far too high. Revolvers in common practice are considered not to jam. Period. A misfire is possible with bad ammo, but you just pull the trigger again and off you go.
One other thing, I justified my premise based on the tech setting. We are already in a world where armor can stop bullets (and it's not by and large soft armor, you might want to check out the ceramic plates which are the standard on both police and soldiers these days). The future is not going to make armor worse. Yes you can have AP rounds, but then there's another tradeoff in that the harder bullet to punch through armor doesn't deform in soft tissue and do as much damage. There's no free lunches in the world of weapons. PF can justify armor being useless against guns because it's pretty awful steel in those suits (though later plate armor was proofed against muskets before it was sold). I do have to wonder about how they could justify adamantine armor being the same, or even dragon hide.
I've said my piece and the GM gets to decide. I just don't much care for hyperbolic nonsense (you've ruined by build). I'll have faith if he says I won't get torn up by guns all the time because they ignore the AC I will be dumping feats and equipment into (so they join the party with spells, Su abilities, incorporeal, and any other number of touch abilities which make an armor focused tank a heavy vulnerable target).
My apologies for 'boggling your mind' and 'spouting hyperbole'.
I'll just shut the *@$#&* up now and leave you alone.
Elo just said it well, no matter how I look at this I just see my PC being "short-changed" for a build thatS been ok'ed and within set rules.
All I can see my PC getting is cheap Guns, on a world that has a tiny few, and a "Do you mind if we added -1 to 8 to hit depending who's shes shooting at." Not thrilled, Not thrilled at all.
Another thing its no coincidence to High Armor reliant PCs want this pushed throw when you have 5+ AC coming from Armor and with this you can counter a whole group of weapons, its all win for you guys and no downside, the very definition of a free lunch by the way.
no the downsides all me PCs end.
and when I say something about it your jumping on me! really come on, back off and cool off.
Elo just said it well, no matter how I look at this I just see my PC being "short-changed" Thing is the GM has ruled, I'm not getting into a long one about this, rule or that rule, better minds than ours made up the Pathfinder gun rules, let them be and lets get on with the game.
Look stop worrying the GM going to make you walk into a hail of Lead, I trust him. GMs move the game to fit, its been great so far, now 4X$ tactical units showing up, Mad Max like. Its Swords and Sandals all the way.
So Chill
Okay.. not sure we needed high hostilities in this discussion but whatever let's calm down.
@Aannra:
Making guns hit AC doesn't 'counter a whole group of weapons'. I think this is they hyperbole that has slightly ticked off Bishnu. If that were the case then high armour negates bows, thrown and crossbows as well. I mean it just puts you on equal footing (on attack ratio) compared other ranged attackers. Which is why if the GM wishes to stick to his ruling that I am suggesting some minor changes that make it easier for you. These changes aren't complicated either.
So now you get all the bonuses of guns (except attacks against touch AC) and no real downside exception of some feats (Manyshot). How is that 'short-changed'?
Also you mention high armour reliant PCs? So are you talking about me as well? The one with.. ya know.. the lowest AC in the party and isn't armour reliant but (Su) reliant?
Nevermind. Not worth the argument. The GM will make his call.
Jack,
What I have seen in the last few dozen posts is one player pushing for changes to the rules, after character creation, that give him lots of bonuses, and give another PC lots of penalties, that were not known at character creation time. Aannra might have gone a different build if she'd known the rules were different. Changing them afterward is not fair to her. No matter how many changes you make, it's still not fair to have two PCs make their character with rule set A, then have player 1 push hard to move the goalposts. Both players had the rules up front, and Bishnu chose to make his character knowing the rules. But afterwards, has moved to change the rules to make his character stronger while making another player's character weaker.
Now, that's fine, but when pushed back against, he turned hostile and belittle and insulted anyone who didn't agree with him.
As a GM (about 25 years experience as a GM), I can tell you that it is the height of unfairness to make a MAJOR change to the core rules after people have made and started playing their character. At an absolute minimum, Aannra should be allowed to make ANY changes she wants to her build if this change is made, as she had no way of knowing the carpet would be yanked out from under her after she started playing.
It's really REALLY not fair to do such a thing to someone in a game, and throwing a hissy fit and insulting people to try to push this type of change through is not something I like to see in a player.
Given my build, this change has absolutely 0 effect on me. So I have no horse in the race personally. But I absolutely think it's a very bad thing to do to someone to change the rules in such a major way after the game has started like this, especially when it gives nothing but bonus's to player 1, and only penalties to player 2.
Note that advanced firearms already have most of the 'benefits' you're saying she'd get, and she had those benefits prior to this change.
The fact the change doesn't affect me, Bishnu, means I'm actually more objective than you are.
I've also got 25 years experience running games, and this sort of carpet pulling is a bad thing to do to people.
I suggested the Armor as DR because it doesn't invalidate Aannra's build, while giving you some boost. That's a win/win situation.
Your attacks and insults are really more about you wanting your own way, it seems. There was no need for them, and all they did was undermine your arguments and make you seem petty.
Nobody said dex builds were small, that's a strawman on your part. What was said was, the change affects her build, and it affects it in a tangible way. What was also said was that Dex is harder, beyond a certain level, to build up than AC, due to how AC bonuses stack and how dex is limited in how to build up. That's a true statement.
Now, that's fine, but when pushed back against, he turned hostile and belittle and insulted anyone who didn't agree with him.
Hostile? Really? Insulted? Really? I'm pretty sure I got laid into by several people already. Saying that opinions are 'hyperbolic' or that a claim 'boggles my mind' is not an insult. They are arguments. Neither addresses an individual. I was accused of being out to get another person's character (which is a claim you piled onto). That is an insult.
Whatever. I'm not going to keep stirring this pot, but I'm also not particularly enamored with getting all the blame here.
Again, GM chooses, I will abide.
@mdt: I am not the GM, I will go whatever ruling he wants because it doesn't do anything to my character really. The push so far has been 1 penalty and it would buff 1 aspect of another character. I am only suggesting things here to go along with the ruling that the GM has made (so far) to help Aannra despite the ruling being bad for her.
And I do agree with you btw, if Aannra really feels that her character somehow doesn't work now. She should be able to change it. No argument there.
Okay...I'm confused, advanced firearms do nothing to this context, her revolver still jams on a 1 and it has a 20ft range and has costly cartridges at 40gp a pop. So no, advanced firearms do not have ANY of the benefits I'm suggesting adding.
(If you were referring to the previous list that is a list comparing it to crossbows so is a list of things that guns already have. So I guess you are right there.. but then.. I wasn't contesting that guns shouldn't have those?)
Edit: Also one thing I didn't realize until I looked up parts of advanced firearms is that a revolver resolves against normal AC when outside of 100ft range. Did not know that. xD
Yeah, it was the crossbow list
EDIT : Yeah, advanced firearms are pretty much easy peasy. And the broken condition can be removed using a move action (I think, going off memory here) as the jammed shell is removed.
Actually made me think. Wouldn't it be alright to downgrade only the range bit from advanced to early firearms?
So it would mean guns would have to be within easy reach of armoured targets to hit their touch AC. This means that Aannra keeps her touch AC attack and enemies will have to come in close to take advantage of it but otherwise function by the change that Bishnu wants. So most of the time it will be hitting his normal AC as he charges into combat?
If people are getting this bent out of shape over the suggestion, I formally drop it. Just play RAW.
Good now can we get back to the game, and let it go please.
Keep Calm and Carry On :)
Yowzewr!!! Well that was interesting, I go to sleep and it seems to start as a good discussion then leads to... well I am not going to say it.
I hope in the future this does not happen again, though as I have DMed for the last year or so on here in PbP, it seems like something like this blows up every third game, and it is over something that is not clear in the rules or (players and GM wanted to clarify).
As I have already said, I am sorry that Aannra felt like we were 'pulling the carpet out from under her'. I am leaving it as RAW. The only exception would be if you encounter a corporation group. Who should have better armor.
Please let it rest and lets have some fun! After all a party is going on!