so I made the mistake of having my party sorcerer get comped some 200 silver disks at the Silver disk hall to introduce the location and proprietor. he was supposed to go get the party and let them know but instead he kept the silver disks to himself and never told the party. Instead of doing a really complicated gambling game we rolled some dice and he bet all of it on one roll and won 2000 Silver disks which I found out are worth 10 GP each so he ow has 20,000 gold to spend in Numeria. so what can he buy what should he by?
if you were him a 2nd level sorc what would you buy?
and has a DM what is the restrictions on what magic items are available for the size of the town it is torch from the iron gods AP
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Convince him that 20,000 isn't enough and he should gamble it again to win 200,000. Repeat until he loses it all or owns Golarion.
More seriously, he's going to have to buy things that he can hide and whose effects are not visible or the party will catch on and demand their shares. Frankly there aren't many useful things like that. A Stone of Good Luck fits the bill perfectly, happens to cost 20,000, and won't break your game.
Convince him that 20,000 isn't enough and he should gamble it again to win 200,000. Repeat until he loses it all or owns Golarion.
More seriously, he's going to have to buy things that he can hide and whose effects are not visible or the party will catch on and demand their shares. Frankly there aren't many useful things like that. A Stone of Good Luck fits the bill perfectly, happens to cost 20,000, and won't break your game.
lets say the party doesn't care about it. and I dont really care to much if he breaks the game.
In the order that I recommended them:
Tell him you made a mistake since you didn't realize how much silverdisks were worth. Silverdisk Hall is a small gambling house and wouldn't allow that large a bet (not without making sure it was rigged).
The Ropefists want their money back and steal it. Investigating leads them to the warehouse a little early, and they get to recover some (and only some) of the stolen wealth.
All magic and tech items for sale are listed in various places in Torch's article, as well as the base value of things that can be found 75% of the time. Encourage him to splurge on the more expensive tech items. Since they're overpriced they won't upset the game too much and they'll be a neat bonus.
In the order that I recommended them:
Tell him you made a mistake since you didn't realize how much silverdisks were worth. Silverdisk Hall is a small gambling house and wouldn't allow that large a bet (not without making sure it was rigged).
The Ropefists want their money back and steal it. Investigating leads them to the warehouse a little early, and they get to recover some (and only some) of the stolen wealth.
All magic and tech items for sale are listed in various places in Torch's article, as well as the base value of things that can be found 75% of the time. Encourage him to splurge on the more expensive tech items. Since they're overpriced they won't upset the game too much and they'll be a neat bonus.
funny thing is he just mentioned it to me in passing yesterday. he bought a flare gun and it biffed in combat so he was reluctant to spend any more money so he has just been walking around with this treasure. I had no idea
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He can buy the attention of all the nearest-by thieves who wouldn't have too much problem knocking over a level 2 PC.
But if you don't mind if he blows WBL assumptions out of the water for your campaign, maybe consider some kind of (minor) staff being available. Those things are uber expensive, and arguably overly-so.
Well, he should still consider the luckstone, they're worth the money IMHO. But the obvious thing for a sorc is a Headband of Alluring Charisma +4 (16,000).
What kind of sorcerer is he? Blaster, buffer, debuffer, summoner? If he doesn't usually attack enemies directly a ring of invisibility (20,000) is great at that level.
If he worries about getting hit an Amulet of Natural Armor +3 or a Ring of Protection +3 (18,000 each) would be nice. That leaves just enough for a Handy Haversack, always a favorite.
Looks like Torch is a large town, which gives it a default Base Value of 2,000gp and a Purchase Limit of 10,000gp. The module might have different values.
The Purchase Limit is the most that someone in town could spend on a single item. Since 20,000gp goes over what someone could afford to buy, you could say he broke the bank and they need to give him a 10,000gp IOU. Next time they're in Torch that probably won't be as crazily past wealth by level.
The Base Value of 2,000gp means there's a 75% chance that any given magic item of 2,000gp or less is available, with a random number of total items available (broken down into categories, which are on the settlements page linked above). Using those rules should keep him away from the most unbalancing items, in Torch at least.
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Hey, how much do silver disks weigh?
A pound, ha! Many GMs change it to normal coin weight, though, which means 2000 would still weigh 40 pounds.
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According to Fires of Creation, the players should only get 100 gp each to spend at the gambling hall. The base value for Torch can also be found in Fires of Creation. It's 2400 gp, so the sorcerer would have a 75% chance of finding any item worth 2400 gp or less. He could find some magic armor and weapons for his buddies so they can rampage through the rest of the module...
I'm not much of a gambling man, but getting 10 times your money on a single bet seems like a really good bet. It almost seems like it is too good to be true, unless the odds would be 1 out of 11. (Resulting in a profit for the house, on average.)
You might want to ask the player if he's okay with retconning the whole thing to something more in line with the module, say 200 gp for each partymember. He still won the bet, but now it won't break the game. It might also tempt the player to go back to the gambling hall, which was kinda the idea in the first place.
You might also want to spend more time on prepping the game, since all of this information was easily found in Fires of Creation.
I recommend doing this, have a church show up and request for a donation. This church promises him in the event of his death, they will cover the remaining costs for a true resurrection. AKA, get out of death free one time card.
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Well you made the mistake of basically handing him 2000 gold and then letting him gamble it in a game where he made 10 times his money.
There are games that have that high a reward, but they also should have a very low rate of success. Also, the Silver Disk Hall probably doesn't have that kind of money. He should not have been able to be it all in one go. That why gambling tables usually have table limits (both maximum and minimum bets).
Be honest with the player, you messed up. Tell the player they still win at gambling, but not 10 times the original amount. Give them double, that's still 4000 gp, but its a reasonable amount.
i remember playing that module. the Rope Fists smurfing smurf. they roll him in an alley later and ban him from the casino.
A level 2 sorcerer with 20k in gold = an easy payday for thieves. They would probably try to catch him alone or lure him into a trap and take all that money, over his dead body if he objects.
This is one of the reasons I dislike evil characters. WAY too willing to steal from the party.
Skymetal. It's Torch after all. Skymetal is expensive, and maybe he buys some for the rest of the party so the guy standing between him and the enemies' stabbin parts gets a suit of horacalcum light armor and an adamantine weapon.
Or maybe someone slips him a dose of a particularly expensive drug. Now he's addicted. 20,000 gold goes quick when you're spending it on snortable pixie dust or whatever.
Or he blows it on a statue of himself. Sorcerers... feh...
As an unrelated aside, Isaac Asimov had a story about how there is a world with no millionaires. One guy takes it upon himself to gather enough coins to be a millionaire, secretly burying them in his backyard. Turns out the coins are a uranium alloy, and critical mass exactly equals one million dollars. He drops the last one in, FWOOM, there are no millionaires in the world...
Just sayin, no one really knows what silver discs are made of...
Bodyguards. Several bodyguards.
Seriously, he made a huge score gambling. If this was a public game, EVERYONE in town knows. Even if it was a private game, some people know and word will spread.
So yeah, bodyguards. Those and either a home/building he can secure or some horses for leaving town.
Have him discover that the money is fake and is "only" worth about 2000 gold. He can complain to the owner...who has several burly bodyguards. He can ask the party for help, but that requires admitting that he was hiding 20,000 gold from them.
A level 2 sorcerer with 20k in gold = an easy payday for thieves.
The rules are pretty clear in this case. A small town's Base Value is 1,000gp, with a Purchase Limit of 5,000gp.
GAME MASTERY GUIDE on SETTLEMENTS:
So he can buy most any item of 1,000gp or less, with a 75% chance of it being available to him.
^ become an npc hire PC's to do your bidding.^
A Greater Talisman of Good Fortune is worth 16,800G, and lets you reroll one natural 1 on a d20 once per day. Pretty damn awesome. On the same page, find the Four-leaf Clover, which is 3,750 (buying both will cost him 20,550; which he could probably afford) and gives him a +2 Luck bonus on a saving throw 3 times per day. These luck-based, all-or-nothing items seem like an appropriate buy for someone who just won 20,000G.
IO am going to allow him to spend it. right now he is looking at the 5x5 flying carpet. ha or a portable hole
Gyrocopters for the whole party! Now that's swag.
Maybe a discount beat-up warship?
Otherwise, a palace.
Seriously, there are a ton of super expensive mundane things PCs can buy that would have no or little impact on game balance, and could later serve story purposes. I would strongly encourage him to go down this path. Perhaps with a "We are sorry but we don't actually *have* the money you won, but we have enough people who owe us favors that we can provide labor and goods for an equivalent value".
There is absolutely no reasonable world in which the owner of the Silver Disk actually lets this player get away with this. They know he still has the money and hasn't told the party, so this is the easiest pickings they ever had.
He should absolutely, 100% be mugged, and then let the silver disks fall where they may.
If he wants to recover them, he's going to have to fess up to the party *why* he was robbed and *how much* he was mugged for, then answer for why it was he was keeping that a secret from his party members.
Assuming you've bothered to read all of Fires of Creation, you'll be totally aware that this character isn't going to be allowed to walk away from the Silver Disk with that kind of a take.
I'm not usually one to accuse a fellow GM of BadWrongFun, but as a player that's currently in Book 6 of Iron Gods, if our GM had allowed something like that to happen, it would strain credibility to the breaking point and I would have probably left the game. As a method actor/storyteller player, blowing way past that level of suspension of disbelief would leave me unbelievably sore.
No, he should be robbed, it should be fun, and it should open up a good storytelling/roleplaying opportunity that leads to a good ol' brawl to get the goods back.
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There is absolutely no reasonable world in which the owner of the Silver Disk actually lets this player get away with this. They know he still has the money and hasn't told the party, so this is the easiest pickings they ever had.
He should absolutely, 100% be mugged, and then let the silver disks fall where they may.
If he wants to recover them, he's going to have to fess up to the party *why* he was robbed and *how much* he was mugged for, then answer for why it was he was keeping that a secret from his party members.
Assuming you've bothered to read all of Fires of Creation, you'll be totally aware that this character isn't going to be allowed to walk away from the Silver Disk with that kind of a take.
I'm not usually one to accuse a fellow GM of BadWrongFun, but as a player that's currently in Book 6 of Iron Gods, if our GM had allowed something like that to happen, it would strain credibility to the breaking point and I would have probably left the game. As a method actor/storyteller player, blowing way past that level of suspension of disbelief would leave me unbelievably sore.
No, he should be robbed, it should be fun, and it should open up a good storytelling/roleplaying opportunity that leads to a good ol' brawl to get the goods back.
You could later modify the adventure so they end up fighting the robbers. Then he actually earns it back later. When its more level approprriate.
Update:
I told him that by carrying this amount he is just asking to be robbed. in fact the party is about to fight the
he is currently looking at the 5x5 flying carpet. That is not game breaking and I can rule out abuse.
this is all on me I didn't read it was gold not silver disks he got. he was the only one in town because he missed a session so i thought a good way to re unite the party was to have him receive
the other thing is he and the total party are all new and i want them to feel out the game have fun and work into a serious atmosphere but I cant force it.
he will get mugged if he survives this encounter. and if he survives that i may allow him to find a flying carpet machine under the mountain that takes 200000 silver disks.
so I made the mistake of having my party sorcerer get comped some 200 silver disks at the Silver disk hall to introduce the location and proprietor. he was supposed to go get the party and let them know but instead he kept the silver disks to himself and never told the party. Instead of doing a really complicated gambling game we rolled some dice and he bet all of it on one roll and won 2000 Silver disks which I found out are worth 10 GP each so he ow has 20,000 gold to spend in Numeria. so what can he buy what should he by?
if you were him a 2nd level sorc what would you buy?
and has a DM what is the restrictions on what magic items are available for the size of the town it is torch from the iron gods AP
Own up to making the mistake and adjust the gold. The rules give you guidelines on what to make available given the size of a settlement. Just because you muffed up on the gold giveaway, is no reason to change them.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'm going to go against the flow here and suggest that he keep it, and that you build some campaign elements around this guy.
Some campaigns are character-driven. If one of the players invents (or rolls up) a background for his PC as the legal heir to the kingdom, forced to flee the capital city due to the machinations of an untrustworthy vizier, then the GM can use that hook to build several encounters, or maybe even a thread through the campaign. Even though that background doesn't factor into any of the character's crunchy-numbers bits, the PC isn't "just a rogue."
Likewise, look at the backgrounds for several of the iconic characters. Sajan is looking for his sister. A good GM can build a lot of hooks off that. (What if she's been impressed into the Devil Nuns of Cheliax?)
So, this PC isn't "just a sorcerer", he's a ridiculously rich character to boot, having won a fortune in a gambling casino. Run with that. How does that impact his relationship with other characters? How does he carry his fortune? (There's a guy who's willing to sell these black gems with flickering embers glowing inside them; aside from being soul-bound relics of a daemonic temple, they're a convenient way to carry great wealth.) Can he buy political influence?
There are a lot of ways this can spell adventure for the party -- aside from "robbers show up and kill everybody and loot the corpses".
I'm going to go against the flow here and suggest that he keep it, and that you build some campaign elements around this guy.
Some campaigns are character-driven. If one of the players invents (or rolls up) a background for his PC as the legal heir to the kingdom, forced to flee the capital city due to the machinations of an untrustworthy vizier, then the GM can use that hook to build several encounters, or maybe even a thread through the campaign. Even though that background doesn't factor into any of the character's crunchy-numbers bits, the PC isn't "just a rogue."
Likewise, look at the backgrounds for several of the iconic characters. Sajan is looking for his sister. A good GM can build a lot of hooks off that. (What if she's been impressed into the Devil Nuns of Cheliax?)
So, this PC isn't "just a sorcerer", he's a ridiculously rich character to boot, having won a fortune in a gambling casino. Run with that. How does that impact his relationship with other characters? How does he carry his fortune? (There's a guy who's willing to sell these black gems with flickering embers glowing inside them; aside from being soul-bound relics of a daemonic temple, they're a convenient way to carry great wealth.) Can he buy political influence?
There are a lot of ways this can spell adventure for the party -- aside from "robbers show up and kill everybody and loot the corpses".
oh this guy has a back story and his every move is driven by it. his parents were merchants that were killed at the had of a rival merchant/pirate he now searches the known universe looking for power and vengance. in fact it has been remarked many times by the party "not the dead parents thing again"
in fact I had Sanvill trent survive the initial fight and reach out to him a and offer the Technic league help in tracking down his parents killers. He agreed not to kill the party but he spent a night dragging the passed out konnor baine through a sleeping room of the party. While invisible trying desperately not to make a noise it almost worked until he hit a chair and woke up every body he then attempted to explain to the party about his quest for vengeance and he technically wast hurting any body ect ect. then party leader promptly responded "not the dead parents thing again!!" they managed to work it out and not sell out konnor baine. but out of all the characters he plays his guy super well and i nudge him with my NPC paladin in the right direction.
Apart from my concern in learning that you're running a Paladin DMPC*, I think you may find that a flying carpet is actually quite powerful and unbalanced at the party's current level (Level 2, as I understand it).
You're essentially giving the character permanent flight, including the ability to hover without any Fly checks. Consider that he can't even cast the Fly spell for temporary flight (minutes per level) until Level 6, and would have to choose that spell as his only 3rd level spell known at that stage.
I think the other PCs would be rightfully annoyed to have one character receive such a significant boon based solely on GM error and player/character selfishness (especially if, as Gulthor notes, from a plot perspective the owner of the Silver Disk would never let him walk away with the money so easily).
While I understand your reluctance to have to correct your error to the detriment of that particular character, I think a DM's role involves ensuring a level of balance and consistency across the game. Preventing one character from having an OP benefit isn't being mean or unfair -- instead, you're acting in the best interests of the entire group and game to balance things out.
Plus, as many others have said, this is a ripe opportunity to flesh out the story, which it sounds like your sorcerer character will probably enjoy.
*: This is an issue outside the scope of what you've asked about, but DMPCs can pose a lot of problems on their own, and having a DMPC Paladin could be especially problematic because of the alignment and morality factors it imposes (which I think are usually fine when it is another player, but risk becoming antagonistic if it is the DM's pet PC who is raising uncomfortable questions or attempting to steer the group's moral compass).
Apart from my concern in learning that you're running a Paladin DMPC*, I think you may find that a flying carpet is actually quite powerful and unbalanced at the party's current level (Level 2, as I understand it).
You're essentially giving the character permanent flight, including the ability to hover without any Fly checks. Consider that he can't even cast the Fly spell for temporary flight (minutes per level) until Level 6, and would have to choose that spell as his only 3rd level spell known at that stage.
I think the other PCs would be rightfully annoyed to have one character receive such a significant boon based solely on GM error and player/character selfishness (especially if, as Gulthor notes, from a plot perspective the owner of the Silver Disk would never let him walk away with the money so easily).
While I understand your reluctance to have to correct your error to the detriment of that particular character, I think a DM's role involves ensuring a level of balance and consistency across the game. Preventing one character from having an OP benefit isn't being mean or unfair -- instead, you're acting in the best interests of the entire group and game to balance things out.
Plus, as many others have said, this is a ripe opportunity to flesh out the story, which it sounds like your sorcerer character will probably enjoy.
*: This is an issue outside the scope of what you've asked about, but DMPCs can pose a lot of problems on their own, and having a DMPC Paladin could be especially problematic because of the alignment and morality factors it imposes (which I think are usually fine when it is another player, but risk becoming antagonistic if it is the DM's pet PC who is raising uncomfortable questions or attempting to steer the group's moral compass).
Thanks for your advice,
I dont play lawful stupid paladins I have him as more of a healbot with an emphasis on lay on hands since we only have a cleric every other week. and he can absorb some damage if needed in a fight.
as for the paladin I play him like my own faith I set an example of how my god commands me to live and act but don't expect other players to even have the same world view or morality as me. I wont allow them to be evil but I also allow them to make there own choices and suffer the consequences. its funny actually one player has played before and he is all super scared of my paladin because he is a human lie detector and he can read your mind!!!(not true but the party believes it ha) and for when i now as a dm the party is going to do something my pally wouldn't approve of he happens to leave the room or not be around.
in the prevoous scenario of the Sorc trying to steal konnor baine my paladin offered his sword in finding his parents and offered him another solution instead of pulling his sword and threatening people.
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funny thing is he just mentioned it to me in passing yesterday. he bought a flare gun and it biffed in combat so he was reluctant to spend any more money so he has just been walking around with this treasure. I had no ideaIn the order that I recommended them:
Tell him you made a mistake since you didn't realize how much silverdisks were worth. Silverdisk Hall is a small gambling house and wouldn't allow that large a bet (not without making sure it was rigged).
The Ropefists want their money back and steal it. Investigating leads them to the warehouse a little early, and they get to recover some (and only some) of the stolen wealth.
All magic and tech items for sale are listed in various places in Torch's article, as well as the base value of things that can be found 75% of the time. Encourage him to splurge on the more expensive tech items. Since they're overpriced they won't upset the game too much and they'll be a neat bonus.
I'd suggest Muleback Cords or Bags of Holding. Silverdisks weigh 1lb a piece, so 2,000 Silverdisks = 2,000lbs
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You're correct in saying that you can't force the player to tell the rest of the party, but you're absolutely within your rights to force the issue and create an opportunity for drama and intrigue; that's the mark of a good storyteller.
Stories are defined by the conflicts that occur within them and the way that the characters react to those conflicts.
Having bandits, muggers, and thieves constantly coming after the party - and almost certainly declaring things like, "Gamen wants what you stole," while pointing at the offending PC is sure to raise tons of red flags for the rest of the party.
The other players *deserve* a chance to react to this, and you may not realize what an immeasurable disservice you're doing to your own game by rewarding a player so immensely for skipping a session.
Expect upset players and cocky remarks about, "Well, I won't be here next week, that way I can get *MY* 20,000 gold.)
There are also still logistical issues that defy reason with this whole scenario, including - and most obviously - would Gamen even *have* that many silver disks to begin with?
You also risk your players getting really clever and realizing this:
Placing a battery in a generator's charging slot can recharge it. However, each time a battery is recharged, there's a 20% chance that the battery is destroyed in the process. A destroyed battery is worth only 10 gp. The bulk of "silverdisks" in circulation today are destroyed batteries; one can tell a functional battery from a destroyed one by the way the circuitry seems to shimmer slightly when reflecting light. The circuitry in a charged battery glows with a soft blue radiance equal to that of a candle.
And - spoilers - you know that's about to be relevant. Since attempting to recharge them carries no risk (since they lose no value if the recharge fails), then 400 of them are about to become fully-charged batteries. 4000 extra charges means that virtually every tech item you're likely to find - with their limits imposed based on battery availability - is about to become far stronger.
Or, alternatively, those 400 batteries could just be sold at 50g each now instead of 10g each, making this haul suddenly worth (400x50)+(1600x10) *36,000* gold.
DM's make mistakes. It's our responsibility to own up to them, or at least to make those rewards *earned*.
Your campaign is on the edge of a bigger precipice than I think you realize.
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I'd suggest Muleback Cords or Bags of Holding. Silverdisks weigh 1lb a piece, so 2,000 Silverdisks = 2,000lbsfunny thing is he just mentioned it to me in passing yesterday. he bought a flare gun and it biffed in combat so he was reluctant to spend any more money so he has just been walking around with this treasure. I had no ideaIn the order that I recommended them:
Tell him you made a mistake since you didn't realize how much silverdisks were worth. Silverdisk Hall is a small gambling house and wouldn't allow that large a bet (not without making sure it was rigged).
The Ropefists want their money back and steal it. Investigating leads them to the warehouse a little early, and they get to recover some (and only some) of the stolen wealth.
All magic and tech items for sale are listed in various places in Torch's article, as well as the base value of things that can be found 75% of the time. Encourage him to splurge on the more expensive tech items. Since they're overpriced they won't upset the game too much and they'll be a neat bonus.
Also how is he hiding them from the others? Even ignoring weight 2,000 coin to palm sized silvery disks aren't something you can just stash in your backpack.
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Placing a battery in a generator's charging slot can recharge it. However, each time a battery is recharged, there's a 20% chance that the battery is destroyed in the process. A destroyed battery is worth only 10 gp. The bulk of "silverdisks" in circulation today are destroyed batteries; one can tell a functional battery from a destroyed one by the way the circuitry seems to shimmer slightly when reflecting light. The circuitry in a charged battery glows with a soft blue radiance equal to that of a candle.And - spoilers - you know that's about to be relevant. Since attempting to recharge them carries no risk (since they lose no value if the recharge fails), then 400 of them are about to become fully-charged batteries. 4000 extra charges means that virtually every tech item you're likely to find - with their limits imposed based on battery availability - is about to become far stronger.
Or, alternatively, those 400 batteries could just be sold at 50g each now instead of 10g each, making this haul suddenly worth (400x50)+(1600x10) *36,000* gold.
You can't recharge destroyed batteries.