My GM is trying to make my Paladin a Serial Killer

[Madokar Valortouched]

My GM set up a situation for the party. Various corruptions (not related to Horror Adventures) that have started to warp the party members into something... else. We managed to solve one of them. Due to circumstances, the Bladebound Magus had his Black Blade destroyed. This has removed his corruption, and he is more or less "whole" again.

That just leaves me and the Shaman left with corruptions. The Shaman is okay for now, aside from having no flesh on his forearms and a Paralyzing touch. But my Paladin now has a constant Life Drain effect that takes off 2 HP a day that can't be healed or regenerated normally. There is one way to overcome this. The GM has given my paladin the ability "Premeditated Murder Healing".

My paladin regains 1d8 HP for every sentient creature murdered with an INT of 3 or higher. This effect activates whenever my paladin directly murders someone or arranges a situation that causes someone's death in the presence of the paladin. Evil outsiders and other enemies in combat will not activate the ability.

My paladin is not about to become a serial killer. He has 140 HP at Level 10. That means he has 70 days to resolve this before he gets down to 0 HP. So I'm starting to feel a little pigeonholed at the moment.

[Bloodrealm]

Your GM is an a+%$*$@. Leave the group, explaining that you won't tolerate them trying to ruin your character just because they have some arbitrary beef with Paladins and that they need to grow up.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

If you want ways to solve this w/o murdering people, you need to tell us more about the corruptions bit. How did you get them? Why did destroying the black blade restore the magus? How did he know it would?

[RealAlchemy]

Try taking remove curse as your L12 mercy if you hit L12 soon enough?

[Jurassic Pratt]

Yeah, I gave your GM the benefit of the doubt in the previous thread, but now it definitely seems like he's just trying to screw you.

[Madokar Valortouched]

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

If you want ways to solve this w/o murdering people, you need to tell us more about the corruptions bit. How did you get them? Why did destroying the black blade restore the magus? How did he know it would?

We don't know the sources of the corruptions. They just started happening. And there was no indication that destroying the Black Blade would end the Magi's corruption. There was a whole chain of events that led to the Blade's destruction. I even made a thread that covered most of that mess.

After the Magus performed the ritual to get his Black Blade back, he was freed of the corruption, his Black Blade became a White Blade, and the Sword got a better disposition as a result. The Magus also has gleaned some knowledge about the corruptions by performing the ritual.

The Shaman is slowly becoming undead. He became gaunt (the GM specifically showed pictures of Holocaust survivors to give an idea of what the Shaman is looking like), developed a black ichor instead of blood, and now has no flesh on his forearms. As a result of the latest corruption for the Shaman, he now has a lich's Paralyzing Touch ability.

As for my paladin, he's developed Infernal/ Abyssal traits. At level 10, my paladin has large wings with 60 ft fly speed and poor maneuverability. There are other bonuses, like a +2 bonus to STR and CON, Acid Resist 15, Regen 5, and a +4 bonus to FORT saves to overcome Poison effects.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

What is your divine bond?

[Wonderstell]

Personally, I think your GM has made quite the interesting scenario for you. He/she is challenging you. Can your character keep their faith even as they feel their very life force slipping away? Or will they go back on their faith to save themself?

This probably isn't something that can be solved from a mechanical viewpoint, so I'd refrain from buying a scroll of Remove Curse and just try my hardest in character instead.

But if you just want to vent on the forum that's fine too. You must feel very frustrated when you have no idea how to cure yourself while your time is running out.
Feel the despair, and overcome it. That's probably what your GM wants.

[Madokar Valortouched]

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

What is your divine bond?

With my weapon. I'm an Iomedean paladin with the Tempered Champion Archetype.

[Madokar Valortouched]

The closest thing we have to a potential source of our corruptions is that both the Shaman and I died at the same time trying to clear out a desecrated temple of Pharasma at level 5. We were raised by the local temple of Erastil. And that's about when the changes started.

That doesn't cover the Magus, though. He hasn't died once during this campaign, and he started becoming corrupted at the same time.

Communing with Sarenrae has confirmed some things about the Shaman's corruption and how to remove his affliction. It involves his soul, there something that needs to be destroyed to undo the corruption, it is in the general area of the city we are in, and it is intangible.

[Azten]

Just die, showing you are above the effect of this corruption. Self-Perfection over your Affliction.

[Madokar Valortouched]

Azten wrote:

Just die, showing you are above the effect of this corruption. Self-Perfection over your Affliction.

I have been contemplating following the Eighth Act of Iomedae:

The Eighth Act
Convincing the graveknight known as the Black Prince to throw himself upon his sword as punishment for his evil is considered Iomedae's Eighth Act. This righteous suicide redeemed the undead knight's soul and allowed him to be judged in the Halls of Aroden.

If I need to give my life to save others, then I readily make that sacrifice.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

One, destroy your bonded weapon. If the magus' blade was the weak point for him, the celestial spirit bound to your weapon may be yours, and getting a new one in 30 days may solve your problem. In the meanwhile, in no particular order (just the order they come to mind):

Two, kill yourself after arranging for a raise dead to be performed 24 hrs later. If you're really lucky dying and returning will be enough to get rid of it. If not, there's a decent chance that demonic and/or diabolic forces or (even better) the force behind the corruption will drag your soul off. You have 24 hours to coax information out of them. Hopefully they gloat. If taken by forces not responsible for the corruption they may at least be able to perceive what's wrong with you.

Three, get a remove curse. It's not going to cure you but it might give you a temporary reprieve and extend your 70 days.

Four, find out whether this is happening to other people. Visit cities and make some diplomacy checks to gather info. Yeah, you'll have to deal with reactions to your appearances. You have charisma, you can manage. If it is happening to others, find out as much as you can and look for common threads.

Five, scrape together a lot of money and pay someone to wish your corruption away. Immediately beforehand use an augury or better to check whether that will actually work. If not, just wish to know how to fix it, or to know what's going on. Alteratively, a wish may well be able to restore you to full HP, resetting your 70 days.

Six, travel astrally to the Boneyard and ask Pharasma for help/advice. She knows more about souls, life and death than Sarenrae does, and she's going to be miffed at what's been done to you.

Seven, keep an eye out for vast unconquerable evils near enough to get to. If your attempts all fail and you get down to say a week, ride over there and go out in a blaze of glory!

Eight, while you're in those cities consult every sage you can find, including historians, who might know of such things in the past.

[Balancer]

If your DM is open to the possibility of using templates have your Paladin submit themselves to become an Angelic Vessel . The template disrupts spell-casting from opposed deities and forces, it wouldn't be a stretch to rule the holy presence disrupts the corruption's progress.

[Madokar Valortouched]

Balancer wrote:

If your DM is open to the possibility of using templates have your Paladin submit themselves to become an Angelic Vessel . The template disrupts spell-casting from opposed deities and forces, it wouldn't be a stretch to rule the holy presence disrupts the corruption's progress.

Worth a shot.

[Wraithguard]

Fix it or die trying. Stand by your oaths and remember, should you die, Iomedae will take care of you.*

*Not valid in all cases, some things may eat that tasty little soul.

[Kitty Catoblepas]

You could always participate in a just court and act as executioner for the guilty. There's a prestige class that would work along these lines, but I forget what it is.

[Weables]

I'm guessing your corruptions coincided with the release of horror adventures rather than a specific event. your GM saw the content, got excited, went overboard.

I'll advise you to do the same thing I do when there's a similar story. Tell you to be an adult, and talk with your DM :)

[Madokar Valortouched]

Weables wrote:

I'm guessing your corruptions coincided with the release of horror adventures rather than a specific event. your GM saw the content, got excited, went overboard.

I'll advise you to do the same thing I do when there's a similar story. Tell you to be an adult, and talk with your DM :)

I can't be certain, but I think he had this planned out before Horror Adventures was released. I remember him asking what how I would feel if something bad would happen to my paladin towards the start of the campaign in the spring of last year. I'm guessing this mess is what he was talking about back then.

[DM Beckett]

My first instinct, without any other context, is to agree with what Wonderstell said, and it's less the DM being a jerk or trying to punish you, (it's not just you, but everyone), and rather trying to challenge you.

If it was me, I might honestly consider, (if your Paladin's build isn't too Iomedae dependent), converting to Ragathiel, who is kind of the iconic Risen Fiend (as opposed to Fallen Angel), and sort of maxing out the story RP and emotional experience. Fight it with every ounce of your being and soul and rise above it. Don't give in to the corruption, but channel it towards good and righteousness. Don't compromise,. . . even in the face of annihilation.

Now, the other thing I would do is try to talk to the DM out of game, one on one, and explain that you, as a player, are feeling a bit too aggravated/irritated/frustrated or whatever you are. Ask them what their intentions for the game are. Don't ask for them to spoil it, but rather something like "is this a case where I need to trust you for an awesome story build up or are you just screwing with us? If it's the former, can you maybe back off a little bit, slow it down, or give some hints/signs of hope, because I'm not really enjoying this right now."

Giving the DM the benefit of the doubt, he or she may not even realize they went a little too far or too fast.

My first instinct as I was reading was that it sounds like the DM is playing off of the Character's opposites or worst selves. The Shaman (presumably of Sarenrae) becoming a Lich, the Magus being corrupted by his or her dark blade, and you, the pinnacle champion of LG becoming the embodiment of CE.

[GM Rednal]

Execution is often not considered to be murder - motive might matter with this GM.

Notably, though, righteous warriors generally aren't the kind to give into this sort of thing. If you're affiliated with a church, I'd talk to a Priest there about your options. If you're not directly affiliated, they'll still probably listen if they're good - LN and TN would also probably help.

If that fails, there's always the suicide route - throw yourself right against the forces of evil and fight them until you die so your spirit can go to Heaven and/or your deity and continue the fight. XD

...I'm assuming you like your character and want to keep playing them, though, so let's keep that as the last resort. o wo;

[Weables]

Madokar Valortouched wrote:

Weables wrote:

I'm guessing your corruptions coincided with the release of horror adventures rather than a specific event. your GM saw the content, got excited, went overboard.

I'll advise you to do the same thing I do when there's a similar story. Tell you to be an adult, and talk with your DM :)

I can't be certain, but I think he had this planned out before Horror Adventures was released. I remember him asking what how I would feel if something bad would happen to my paladin towards the start of the campaign in the spring of last year. I'm guessing this mess is what he was talking about back then.

While true, the important part of my advice was the stuff you didn't address :) go talk to your DM. you'll both be happier for it. Communication > all

[Madokar Valortouched]

I'll talk to him about it. The player of the Shaman agrees that we have to deal with my paladin's corruption first. It's a top priority right now.

[Tammy the Lich]

Tammy would roll with it.

Every villain needs a tragic origin story.

[Feral]

The moment I read 'black blade destroyed' alarms started going off.

[Azothath]

about how old are you and the other players?

[phantom1592]

yeah... I'm curious what his definition of 'murder' is. Death can follow a righteous warrior pretty easily, but most wouldn't consider it 'murder'. Every killer, every bandit that attacks you... dies in a fight and you get healed. Iomeda isn't Saranrae after all... Premeditated would simply mean... There are bandits attacking people. I'm going hunting for them!!

It MAY not be that bad if THAT's the route he's thinking. Somehow I doubt it though. I think he wants the paladin to fall.

In that case... I think dying after 70 days (if not sooner) is a perfectly legitimate strategy. Draw a line in the sand... and do NOT cross it. Either the character dies... Some holy presence rewards him for his principle... or The DM gets bored and shows you the way out of this mess..

[Azten]

Feral wrote:

The moment I read 'black blade destroyed' alarms started going off.

They are immune to the Broken condition, not being destroyed,

[Lady-J]

phantom1592 wrote:

yeah... I'm curious what his definition of 'murder' is. Death can follow a righteous warrior pretty easily, but most wouldn't consider it 'murder'. Every killer, every bandit that attacks you... dies in a fight and you get healed. Iomeda isn't Saranrae after all... Premeditated would simply mean... There are bandits attacking people. I'm going hunting for them!!

It MAY not be that bad if THAT's the route he's thinking. Somehow I doubt it though. I think he wants the paladin to fall.

In that case... I think dying after 70 days (if not sooner) is a perfectly legitimate strategy. Draw a line in the sand... and do NOT cross it. Either the character dies... Some holy presence rewards him for his principle... or The DM gets bored and shows you the way out of this mess..

he already had the paladin fall with a bros before foes reasoning

[Sundakan]

Feral wrote:

The moment I read 'black blade destroyed' alarms started going off.

Mine did too but a quick check of the history shows it was able to be reforged, and is now free of corruption. it becoming a "White Blade" instead is a little on the nose, but it's not egregious dickery.

This still seems pretty mishandled though. Tossing in stuff where your character will die and no hint of how to fix it is nothing but frustrating.

[Bloodrealm]

Sundakan wrote:

Feral wrote:

The moment I read 'black blade destroyed' alarms started going off.

Mine did too but a quick check of the history shows it was able to be reforged, and is now free of corruption. it becoming a "White Blade" instead is a little on the nose, but it's not egregious dickery.

This still seems pretty mishandled though. Tossing in stuff where your character will die and no hint of how to fix it is nothing but frustrating.

Yeah, we already know from the previous thread that the GM has decided Black Blades have little to nothing to do with the Bladebound Magus archetype or the rules within the archetype regarding Black Blades.

[GM Rednal]

Changes to a setting and how things work is okay.

Drastic changes players don't really expect is... less so. I mean, obviously, you'll want to have some fun surprises in the plot. By and large, however, players should have a general idea of what to expect from the game, and this is particularly important when it comes to character concepts.

[Rysky]

Lady-J wrote:

phantom1592 wrote:

yeah... I'm curious what his definition of 'murder' is. Death can follow a righteous warrior pretty easily, but most wouldn't consider it 'murder'. Every killer, every bandit that attacks you... dies in a fight and you get healed. Iomeda isn't Saranrae after all... Premeditated would simply mean... There are bandits attacking people. I'm going hunting for them!!

It MAY not be that bad if THAT's the route he's thinking. Somehow I doubt it though. I think he wants the paladin to fall.

In that case... I think dying after 70 days (if not sooner) is a perfectly legitimate strategy. Draw a line in the sand... and do NOT cross it. Either the character dies... Some holy presence rewards him for his principle... or The DM gets bored and shows you the way out of this mess..

he already had the paladin fall with a bros before foes reasoning

Yeah, the GM is just a dick. They're not clever or innovative, they're not presenting a challenge or story telling potential.

They're just being a petty dick.

[Tyinyk]

phantom1592 wrote:

yeah... I'm curious what his definition of 'murder' is. Death can follow a righteous warrior pretty easily, but most wouldn't consider it 'murder'. Every killer, every bandit that attacks you... dies in a fight and you get healed. Iomeda isn't Saranrae after all... Premeditated would simply mean... There are bandits attacking people. I'm going hunting for them!!

It MAY not be that bad if THAT's the route he's thinking. Somehow I doubt it though. I think he wants the paladin to fall.

In that case... I think dying after 70 days (if not sooner) is a perfectly legitimate strategy. Draw a line in the sand... and do NOT cross it. Either the character dies... Some holy presence rewards him for his principle... or The DM gets bored and shows you the way out of this mess..

He already said it has to be a non-evil, non-combat death.

So, he basically has to murder someone who's not a bad guy in cold blood.

I'm with the others, your GM's a dick.

[Trojan Flumph]

Let me get this straight... you are cursed and the only way to deal with it is to go against the core tenants of you class... more so one person had to remove theirs by DESTROYING THE DEFINING FEATURE OF THEIR CLASS. Let me guess, if you had a Wizard he'd have to burn his spell book while sacrificing his Familiar? Druid has to start a forest fire? The Half-orc Barbarian must bathe?!
Get out now, and do it rudely.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

Guys, nothing is forcing him to murder anyone. Why don't you pretend he's losing HP and has no way to regain them? It means he has ten weeks to solve his problem or he dies. That's called incentive. It's no different than "the world ends in X days/weeks/months unless you stop the whatever," which has always been a fantasy mainstay.

The supposed option for healing is essentially flavor. It's not even a moral dilemma. It's just "btw, whatever is behind this wants to corrupt you." Which is a fine thing for an Evil Force to want.

[CorvusMask]

This is kind of case where I'm actually unsure whether gm is being dick or not, so I find some people's judgementalness bit too fast .-. That being said, doesn't sound like fun situation if you guys have no idea what to do.

[Rysky]

Read the previous thread, the GM is just a dick.

[CorvusMask]

Rysky wrote:

Read the previous thread, the GM is just a dick.

Link?

[Balancer]

Sounds like you're possessed by a daemon, you should get that looked at.

[Madokar Valortouched]

CorvusMask wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Read the previous thread, the GM is just a dick.

Link?

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tzck?Fallen-Paladin-Does-attacking-a-possessed

A bit of warning. This got a bit heated after a certain point and turned into a debate over paladins should be "Lawful or to be Good".

[Melkiador]

Tyinyk wrote:

He already said it has to be a non-evil, non-combat death.

So, he basically has to murder someone who's not a bad guy in cold blood.

Depending on how it's worded, suicide may count for giving healing. It would be a non-evil, non-combat death.

['Sani]

I can't help but wonder if the GM is thinking that this leaves your paladin without a choice, he will have to murder someone. Without realizing that the paladin does have a choice, because the idea that someone would choose death rather than succumb to evil is actually a foreign concept to the GM.

So I agree, you are kinda pigeonholed here. I don't see it ending especially well, however were I in your shoes, I would stick around to let it play out. Mostly because I'm stubborn and vengeful, and would want to see the GMs face when my paladin let her last few HP slip away and remain righteous until the end, ruining their plans for turning a paladin bad.

But to give your GM the benefit of the doubt, I can also think of several ways the story could end well. maybe the GM is expecting your paladin to remain true and solve the corruption before they die, and has a fun story/questline all planned out for it. Or possibly the GM has a divine reward planned for if your paladin does choose to sacrifice themselves rather than hurt someone else, involving a rez and some extra powers granted by their goddess or other capital G good beings. Or any other number of storylines that I haven't thought of myself in which the situation could be resolved in a way where everyone enjoys it.

I don't think it's probable, but to be fair I do have to admit it is possible.

[Rysky]

Melkiador wrote:

Tyinyk wrote:

He already said it has to be a non-evil, non-combat death.

So, he basically has to murder someone who's not a bad guy in cold blood.

Depending on how it's worded, suicide may count for giving healing. It would be a non-evil, non-combat death.

Ah, the Ruddigore tactic, impressive.

... granted that probably won't work since the GM in question is a dick.

[captain yesterday]

Rysky wrote:

Read the previous thread, the GM is just a dick.

So wait, this sort of thing has happened before!

[Rysky]

captain yesterday wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Read the previous thread, the GM is just a dick.

So wait, this sort of thing has happened before!

To the absolute shock and surprise of no one.

[Kitty Catoblepas]

Tyinyk wrote:

He already said it has to be a non-evil, non-combat death.
So, he basically has to murder someone who's not a bad guy in cold blood.

I'm with the others, your GM's a dick.

Well, he said "Evil outsiders and other enemies in combat will not activate the ability." I don't know if this captures the DM's intent, but "Evil outsider" is a different category than "Evil person." In that case, he could very well give a fair trial and a swift execution to a criminal (and maybe act as an Inheritor's Crusader in some respects).

Of course, if the DM is actually a dick, only a trip to your local orphanage will do.

[Madokar Valortouched]

Kitty Catoblepas wrote:

Tyinyk wrote:

He already said it has to be a non-evil, non-combat death.
So, he basically has to murder someone who's not a bad guy in cold blood.

I'm with the others, your GM's a dick.

Well, he said "Evil outsiders and other enemies in combat will not activate the ability." I don't know if this captures the DM's intent, but "Evil outsider" is a different category than "Evil person." In that case, he could very well give a fair trial and a swift execution to a criminal (and maybe act as an Inheritor's Crusader in some respects).

Of course, if the DM is actually a dick, only a trip to your local orphanage will do.

The wording of the Premeditated Murder healing specifically states that I have to murder a sentient creature with an INT of 3 or higher. That puts a lot of different creature types up for grabs. But it's not the paladin thing to do, just going around killing to extend your own life.

[Argus The Slayer]

> My GM is trying to make my Paladin a Serial Killer

I would say your DM is giving your paladin the opportunity to prove that he is dedicated to his faith and he will NOT become a serial killer.

Find the source of the corruption. Refuse to turn to the dark side.

Having said that, if you actually do die from NOT succumbing to the dark side and NOT committing murder - and you aren't reborn in some sort of angelic form - I would seriously consider leaving that gaming group. Playing a paladin being challenged by corruption and the forces of evil is fun. Playing a paladin that is forced by the DM to succumb to evil or die is NOT fun.

[Cellion]

Talk to your DM outside of the game. Don't complain, likely your DM thinks this whole scenario is a brilliant idea and he not only won't understand your complaints but will take them as a personal affront. Instead, throw out your ideas on how you plan to approach things and ask about what kind of support you can expect.

For example, if (as people up-thread have suggested) you stick by your paladin vows and seek to do as much good in your remaining time before the curse claims you, talk to the DM about what you can accomplish and where to look for hints regarding overcoming the curse through relentless purity.

The DM has presented a seemingly inescapable dilemma to build up the narrative tension. From the Magus' tale, he wants this to be a major narrative upheaval, rather than just something needlessly cruel. After all, the Magus overcame their curse in the end and at least narratively is better off for it. In character: fight it and seek out aid amongst the allies of your god. Out of character: work with the DM to get hints on how to approach things; only your DM knows the potential ways out.

Also, with the facts as presented, trying to weasel your way around the restrictions is definitely against the spirit of being a Paladin of Iomedae.