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I'm reading the PFS guild guide and the ultimate campaign, and I wonder if I'm reading them right. They seem monstrously impractical for PFS players. The rules in ultimate campaign, as written, would be fine for PFS as is just due to gold and other requirements, but the prestige point per day of training seems really unreasonable.
The retaining options as is:
New Language: 20pp
Skill Ranks: 5pp
Racial trait: 20pp
Feat: 5pp
Class level: 5-7pp
Class feature: 5pp
Archetype class feature: 5pp
Ability Score Increase: 5pp
Spells Known (spontaneous caster): 2pp
HP: 3pp (and unclear if legal in PFS)
New Language and the HP retraining actually granted additional bonuses, while all the others add nothing to your character, and merely permit swapping of existing features for comparable options.
While I understand the point of the retraining rules are to limit players that swap character rules often, the PP costs seem like overkill, as the player is left with a considerably poorer and lower PP than their fellows. This, in turn, results in an unbalanced character when compared to other characters with the normal levels of PP and gold gains.
This is especially problematic when considering that a good chunk of the PFS content cannot be replayed by the player, so merely scrapping a character to create another isn't always a viable option.
Costs seem over the top. Am I reading it wrong?
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I don't believe you are reading it wrong. I think the costs are heavy but not unreasonable.
Also the HP retraining is legal.
How often have you retrained your character? If they are reasonable, I assume you've done it?
There is a 5pp vanity to gain a 1pp discount on retraining. Though you'd have to retrain at least 5 times to get benefit from it.
Regarding the HP one, the area I'm unclear on is that the HP retraining gains the PC +1 HP up to the maximum HP they could have rolled at a given level. Since we don't roll HP, I'm unclear if the max HP is still based on the hit die.
Though if the HP one is legal, the 5pp vanity is amazing and my barbarian will spend all his PP on more hit points....
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I would guess it's to prevent abuse of the retraining rules, as retraining lets you pick options that are beneficial at low levels and trade them away for better ones later one.
For example, a barbarian picks up cleave as their 3rd level feat which serves them well but ages poorly. Retraining this feat at 8th level allows the barbarian to pick up improved critical for 400gp & 5pp and leaves the 9th level feat slot open to take critical focus. That's could be worth it.
The retraining rules also let you dip classes early on for the benefit and retrain away once they've outstayed their welcome.
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Considering the Monastery vanity only reduces the training time for vanities that take at least 5 days...
it's not going to help you with retraining HP.
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Max hp for hit die.
So a second level barbarian with 15 prestige and gold could spend prestiege and gold to get 5 more HP. (12+7 out of 12+12)
It's not easy for me to look up how much I've retrained without going through all my characters, here are some anecdotes though.
Here is a character of mine that makes use of feat retraining to get two level 6 feats at level 6 and later uses retraining to pick up the entirety of the Dimensional Dervish line at level 7.
My Champion of Irori was originally Monk 4, Paladin 1. Once I got a ki pool from Champion of Irori I retrained Monk 4 into Cleric 1 for access to the channels to turn into more ki.
Here is an unused skeleton of a build I made that uses multiple level retraining to abuse Animal Ally and keep a maximum powered PFS animal companion.
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The cost is high because you're not really supposed to be able to change your whole character, just make a few tweaks here and there.
My -6 Farak, the Most Powerful Mage in All Absalom has also retrained at least 1 level and several feats around level 15 because I didn't like how they were working out for him.
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How often have you retrained your character? If they are reasonable, I assume you've done it?I don't believe you are reading it wrong. I think the costs are heavy but not unreasonable.
Also the HP retraining is legal.
Obviously I'm not Rob, but I've used retraining several times. I've retrained more feats than I can remember and a few class levels here and there.
In my area retraining happens fairly often despite the price because it is an extremely powerful tool.
Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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I've used it to retrain a feat.
Unlike many of the above, I had not originally planned to retrain out the feat. In play I found that between dice hate and 3/4 BAB having Power Attack just wasn't worth it. Since the character used a reach weapon, I retrained it to a feat that wasn't available when I started -- Phalanx Formation.
Having the option (even if somewhat expensive in terms of PP) is better than not having it.
There are also boons that allow for cheaper retraining of certain things, such as skill points.
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How often have you retrained your character? If they are reasonable, I assume you've done it?
I've done feat retraining on no less than 4 characters. I've done a near full rebuild of AT, spells, and feats on one character (which cost me 17 PP). So it can, and sometimes is done.
It's not supposed to be easy, and in fact, it's supposed to make you think twice, three times, or even maybe decide it's not worth it at all before you do so.
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Retraining for Feats and Changing Classes (full out classes, features, or archetype features) I personally find to be fine. The PP cost is significant, but the leaving out the roleplay to find someone who can train you and the time to do so is too. I've done some of each.
I have a Druken Brute/Invulnerable Rager Barbarian/Unbreakable Fighter, currently - as soon as I get Raging Vitality I plan on retraining Fighter to Barbarian
My Archer retrained Improved Precise Shot (11th) so that he could get Additional Traits then took Improved Precise again as his 12th level Combat Feat.
Same Archer also retrained out Weapon Training 3 from Light Blades to the Weapon Mastery feat that gives more skills.
I'm sure I've done it a couple more times, but Off the Top of my head.
Languages are just silly expensive before you get to PP cost, adding it in makes it fairly prohibitive better off buying scrolls of Tongues or some such with the PP. Same goes for racial traits - though you're functionally changing a created character fundamentally at that point
The two I personally find prohibitively expensive are HP (which at least you get a new one) and skill ranks. For the HP, I can't see taking away PP cost though as it would make it too easy to always have max HP/level. The skills - maybe there could be a better implementation (like the class synergies) and it seems silly to take away PP cost for just one.
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I've retrained on like 4 characters for a feat. One of those characters I retrained a class level and a feat.
I think retraining is fine as is for PFS. It's expensive PA-wise but not prohibitively so for small changes. I also love that characters get access to it (I am actually planning on using it for my ranger to retrain into Double Slice when he gets enough dex to qualify from his ioun stone he will eventually buy).
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I agree that retraining skill points is too expensive. Anyone with enough INT to make it a good deal doesn't have as much need to retrain their skills.
The exception I can think of is if you had some skill ranks in a skill (say, 1 to get the class skill bonus), then get an Int headband to put full ranks in that skill, you could retrain the skills you had before elsewhere.
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I've spent over 50 PP retraining my level 13 rogue/ranger. I felt like the cost was appropriate, honestly. I was able to make some pretty significant changes (and make her suck less) in a way that felt neither too expensive NOR too cheap. In my Personal Opinion(TM), retraining should have a cost associated with it. Even at the current cost, I still know of a couple players who explicitly plan in retraining as part of their character builds. While I don't begrudge them that choice, I don't exactly want to see that become more widespread.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Bards benefit from Skill retraining.
Both Miroslav and Mayim have one rank in acrobatics (and Int 12) once they get their second versatile performance, both will retrain that skill point somewhere else, as both are taking versatile performance (dance)
Also my exchange *coughsczarnicough* investigator will likely be taking a retrain at 5th level once he gets a headband. These points will likely go to knowledge skills, while the headband replaces profession (merchant) or whatever skills best help exchange in season 8.
Once Ksenia hit 8th level, I retrained the 7th level of witch (winter witch) into Winter Witch Prestige class, as two level of Winter Witch would allow me to keep the improved familiar I needed CL 7 for.
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I recently completed my first retrain in preparation for starting Eyes of the Ten. As I do with most of my characters I planned a build only through level 12. Once I decided to run my samurai through EotT, I had to start planning out his build beyond level 12 which opens up a lot of options. Plus, given the greatly increasing difficulty of high level play, it is important to shore up character's weaknesses where possible.
That being said, the gold/time cost of the retrain was fine, for the most part (I'd almost say trivial except I don't want to have to pay even more.. ;) ). Swapping out his level dip from ranger to ectochymist alchemist stung with the 7pp cost. What hurt even more was in order to bring the retrain fully online at level 12 instead of level 13, I had to retrain a feat as well for an additional 5pp. I had strong reservations about burning through so many prestige but as soon as I hit my first combat I was very thankful I did. So, to second what others have said, retraining *can* be a very powerful option and thus might make sense to keep most of the prestige costs in place.
I also plan on retraining my strangler brawler/stygian slayer once he can pick up the Perfectionist Shavtoosh for Improved Unarmed Strike (which was removed for the strangler for some reason) and grab Greater Grapple for level 6.
There may be a disconnect with the 1pp/day formula in cases like languages. It makes sense for it to take time but not necessarily for it to take 20pp.
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I've used retraining to fix characters that weren't as effective as I hoped. My Cleric that was made in a hurry and without focus retrained a couple of feats around 4th level, picking up additional traits (mainly for Fate's Favored) and swapping his Weapon Focus to Longspear.
My Oracle swapped a Fighter dip for a level of Warpriest when that class came out, and now has 3 levels of Warpriest for the bonus feat and Fervor.
My ninja was probably the one where I took advantage of the retraining rules the most. She swapped out a feat and a ninja trick to take Improved Two Weapon fighting at 8th level with her 3rd level feat, letting her get Improved Two-Weapon Feint. And she swapped out Combat Trick for something else (can't remember what) leaving Combat Trick available to use with Forgotten Trick.
My Monk has retrained to gain a few hitpoints.
I'm about to use retraining to fix my Fighter before he gets too high of a level. I'm mostly waiting to see what's legal from the Armor Master's handbook. He'll at leas retrain out of the Armor Master archetype into vanilla Fighter to get Weapon Training back. He's only 4th level so right now there's only one ability to retrain. He might retrain a feat depending on what ends up legal. He's a Bodyguard build, so things like Vanguard Style or the feat that lets you two-hand a weapon while using a buckler would be great for him.
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Interesting reactions.
Personally, I think the retraining rules would do better without the PP cost, and just have the character lose access to any retrained abilities for a single session per 5 days of training (round to the nearest 5 day increment). DM makes a note on the character log, "retraining X ability" and then at the start of the next session they have the change. Would be easier to implement, as the player can make the changes out of the session and have a fresh sheet for the DM at the start of the next session.
Loss of a level, class feature, or so forth, for an entire session would be enough to make players re-think level class feature swapping, yet the cost would be more in line with the intended rules from ultimate campaign.
Gold costs would remain, as would the other stipulations (like feat retraining requiring an in-session character with the new feat you want).
Considering the Monastery vanity only reduces the training time for vanities that take at least 5 days...
it's not going to help you with retraining HP.
Missed that, thanks.
Still, I'm paying an entire feat for toughness which is only a small handful of HP. PP does seem like a better route.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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just have the character lose access to any retrained abilities for a single session per 5 days of training (round to the nearest 5 day increment). DM makes a note on the character log, "retraining X ability" and then at the start of the next session they have the change. Would be easier to implement,
Wow, talk about making it overly complicated.
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My experience in retraining is as follows.
- Halfling mounted Unchained Summoner: it was at about level 4 when I realized that a mounted build with zero bonus feats was a bad idea. Retrained Mounted Combat (my first feat) into Furious Focus (I had taken Power Attack at 3rd) and took my 5th level as a Dragoon Fighter dip for two gr8 bonus feats and Lance proficiency) Mind retraining shenanigans, but well worth it.
- Human Summoner Classic: had second thoughts about a feat for my Eidolon. Retrained that entire Summoner level into Sorcerer and back again. 10 PP. Still weep softly when I think about it.
- Half Elf Beast Bonded Witch: second thoughs about an archetype that traded away multiple hexes in exchane for some cool abilities. Half of said abilities were incompatible with my character driven Improved Familiar. Will miss Toughness for my psychopomp, but the freedon in taking more hexes than the Big Three (Four, counting Slumber) did wonders to keep the class from becoming too boring.
In my opinion from limited experience, the options we have are mostly fair. You are not allowed to entirely abandon a character concept mid swing, and your starting stats are the biggest limiter anyway. That said, we really need an option for retraining choices taken by Eidolons, Animal Companions,and the rare few Familiars that are allowed to take feats.
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The retraining rules in Ultimate Equipment have an additional requirement that is ignored in PFS: finding a trainer of appropriate level with the appropriate ability.
In a home game it's perfectly reasonable to say "no, you can't find anyone who knows Greater Weapon Specialization in this town of 2000 people. If you want to spend a few weeks traveling while the BBEG implements his plan..." The prestige point cost in PFS is a a cost to automatically find what you need to do the training.
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What I've retrained:
My -1 retrained his Double Slice away and later turned vanilla Ranger levels into Wild Stalker ones. This was at around 10 pp. He's ten times more effective as a Dex-based Elven curve blade wielder than as the MAD TWF monstrosity his pre-retrained self was. Let me tell ya, agileless two-weapon fighting was not fun. Particularily when I noticed that finessed shields substracted their ACP from attack rolls.
My -7 had a change of heart and retrained both a fighter level and two feats. I can't remember what turned into what but it involved getting rid of at least Intimidating Prowess to make way for Deadly Stroke's prereqs. As an aside, Samurais and Cavaliers need more feats.
Ainyvai, my poor emerald spirer, had to IIRC retrain some skills since we decided to specialize among our small 4 person group. And he hated losing contests. Had to be the best at whatever he did.
Thinking about retraining some hp for Freki, the stonelord. It's not enough being immune to fear, charm, fatigue, exhaustion, petrification, nausea, sicken and swarm distraction and being able to surpress confused, dazed and stunned. No, must have hp too, all of it!
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The retraining costs are absurdly cheap without the PP cost and just gold cost.
The main cost of the retraining rules is the loss of abilities while retraining. As written in ultimate campaign, you lose the ability at the start of the training and only get the new ability at the very end of the training time.
So if you elect to spend 5 days retraining a feat, that's 5 days in-game without that feat. Some DMs might not have anything happen, but others will run the campaign as normal with your character being less than useful.
And the gold is expended either way, so a more evil DM may force your party to defend your PC while the retraining happens, with any break in training being a total loss of the gold and time.
The PFS system is very different, subbing PP for the time.
Anyway, seems like others are fine with the current PFS system and that I was reading them right. Thanks for the clarification and explanation.
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Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs
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The retraining costs are absurdly cheap without the PP cost and just gold cost.The main cost of the retraining rules is the loss of abilities while retraining. As written in ultimate campaign, you lose the ability at the start of the training and only get the new ability at the very end of the training time.
So if you elect to spend 5 days retraining a feat, that's 5 days in-game without that feat. Some DMs might not have anything happen, but others will run the campaign as normal with your character being less than useful.
And the gold is expended either way, so a more evil DM may force your party to defend your PC while the retraining happens, with any break in training being a total loss of the gold and time.
The PFS system is very different, subbing PP for the time.
Anyway, seems like others are fine with the current PFS system and that I was reading them right. Thanks for the clarification and explanation.
Um....retraining is done during down time because you are spending 8 hours a day training with a trainer to learn the new (fill in the blank) You can't retrain anything while adventuring, so in PFS it happens between games, like a day job.
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Back in my day we didn't have retraining. If you took Run at 1st level, you had it for the rest of your career. Why, what's the world coming to that the young whippersnappers get something nice, but of course it isn't good enough for them...
In all seriousness, just allowing retraining at all is a major boon to players. There's a fine line to walk between giving something nice and creating an exploitable situation. If all Prestige retraining costs were done away with it's quite likely that every Standard player who owned Ultimate Campaign would suddenly have max hit points. From a monetary standpoint, it's dirt cheap to get those extra hit points. Even lowering the costs to 1 per 2 days, it would only cost 3PP to get two extra hit points. Suddenly the D6 of the arcane casters doesn't look so bad.
The point is that while lowering/removing PP costs would help a few people who messed up their builds and didn't realize it until it was too late, there would be far more people planning their character's career around retraining.
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In all seriousness, just allowing retraining at all is a major boon to players. There's a fine line to walk between giving something nice and creating an exploitable situation. If all Prestige retraining costs were done away with it's quite likely that every Standard player who owned Ultimate Campaign would suddenly have max hit points. From a monetary standpoint, it's dirt cheap to get those extra hit points. Even lowering the costs to 1 per 2 days, it would only cost 3PP to get two extra hit points. Suddenly the D6 of the arcane casters doesn't look so bad.The point is that while lowering/removing PP costs would help a few people who messed up their builds and didn't realize it until it was too late, there would be far more people planning their character's career around retraining.
Well, regarding HP, a strong case could be made that the max HP per level is already given in PFS since you aren't rolling hit dice at all, so retraining HP has no effect.
I'm not really debating this one, but if you were to change the current PP costs to lower them, I think this point would be more widely accepted.
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Skill Ranks: 5pp : Way too high.
Racial trait: 20pp: way too high . Should be more in line with a feat.
Feat: 5pp Just right
Class level: 5-7pp Just right
Class feature: 5pp: Just right
Archetype class feature: 5pp The archetype is far too expensive to retrain> It needs to cap out at 3 pp per level or something
Ability Score Increase: 5pp seems right
Spells Known (spontaneous caster): 2pp seems right
HP: 3pp (and unclear if legal in PFS) Seems right.