Oh baby.
When rating a class from +2 to -2, this is based on the base class, not in comparison to different classes. So for the monk discussion, you are basing the rating on what is exchanged from the base monk to the archetype, and going from there. In other words, we should not compare the monks power and his archetypes with another classes as a way to gauge power.
For examples; Zen Archer. We can all agree that it adds a fair degree of power to the Monk class in comparison to the base monk abilities. We then look at whether the Monk also gains more or less versatility for that power.
As for the "+3/+3" arguments in regards to Mutation Warrior, Razmirian, Pre-Nerf Scarred, etc, I'll simply put the description I put down for Razmirian Priest, and leave it at that
(Note: One of the few Archetypes that must be discussed beyond the original post. This Archetype is considered worthy of going beyond the scale given in this document of +2/+2. However in keeping this in line with every other rating, the max score for this archetype will stay at the current max, even if it could be higher. If you are a DM, we encourage you to look at this archetype, and determine if it fits at your table or not.)
If there is an argument for putting Mutation or Scarred or Zen as a part of this category, then send me a message and present the evidence to do so. I'll post it anonymously as a post on this thread, and we can discuss it. If it is deemed that powerful, I will add the paragraph above in the archetype description.
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What some are forgetting is that the +2 to -2 scale is supposed to be related to the base class....
Yes a Razmiran can buy divine scrolls from different lists but there is difference here between absolute and relative.
As things stand the average max level cleric "knows" about 900 spells (including its domain spells).... and all in all these cover most of the bases in terms of what is needed as a caster. So although a bonus of 6 divine spells from Samsaran is relatively small... these actually plug virtually all the holes that are left.
Now a Razmiran can buy loads of divine scrolls....lots in absolute terms but then the Sorceror is a level behind in its base level of casting and in its ability to cast divine scrolls is 3 levels behind (eg needs to be 12th level caster to cast a 5th level divine scroll). In addition the number of spells a sorceror "knows" is vastly less than the clerics and has far more capability holes to plug.
Extreme spell access is not the be-all and end all.You have to look at the bigger picture.
After all this below has pretty much the best spell access in terms of quality and quantity you can get, but its so specialised I wouldnt want to play it and it isnt optimal.... I certainly wouldnt give it a +3/+3 rating!!!!
So I completely agree the Razmiran is a v.powerful archetype but it is supposed to be rated relative to its base class..... +2/+2 is far more appropriate. You have to remember the base class is supposed to be at 0/0.
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Also in this paradigm, two subguides become created - one to the Master of Many Styles, and one for Hybrid Archetypes. I don't know if the Hybrid Archetypes guide should be specific to or limited to Monk's; without doing research, couldn't both the Fighter and Rogue be pretty well served by Hybrid Archetyping?
I was actually rooting for a whole new Monk guide (including hybrid archetypes) and then one specializing in Master of Many Styles, and eventually one for Unchained Monk (which doesn't have a guide at all), but I understand that's an awful lot of work . . .
And now that you mention it, Fighter (for which the Weapon Master's Handbook did a stealth semi-Unchained) and Unchained Rogue need new guides (Unchained Rogue has a self-described "mini-guide" but not a full-sized guide), although at least in the case of Fighter the list of hybrid archetypes is much smaller relative to the total number of archetypes than for (pre-Unchained) Monk, just because so many of them replace the same things (Bravery, Armor Training, and/or Weapon Training, most often all ranks of whichever one(s) they replace). Also, for Fighter, keep in mind that the Armor Master's Guide is due out in a few months (and we don't know what's in it, but if it is like the Weapon Master's Guide it could be another stealth semi-Unchaining), which would require revising any guide written now.
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As for the "+3/+3" arguments in regards to Mutation Warrior, Razmirian, Pre-Nerf Scarred, etc, I'll simply put the description I put down for Razmirian Priest, and leave it at that
(Note: One of the few Archetypes that must be discussed beyond the original post. This Archetype is considered worthy of going beyond the scale given in this document of +2/+2. However in keeping this in line with every other rating, the max score for this archetype will stay at the current max, even if it could be higher. If you are a DM, we encourage you to look at this archetype, and determine if it fits at your table or not.)
If there is an argument for putting Mutation or Scarred or Zen as a part of this category, then send me a message and present the evidence to do so. I'll post it anonymously as a post on this thread, and we can discuss it. If it is deemed that powerful, I will add the paragraph above in the archetype description.
Perhaps the solution to the "standout" archetypes would be to simply have a "Hall of Fame" entry that highlights the best archetype (or a couple of archetypes in case they're compatible) for each class. That way we can give the Razmirian, ZAM, etc. their due for being standouts without having to distort the scale for them.
Might also be fun to do a "Hall of Shame" which highlights the one archetype for each class you should never take (if applicable).
Perhaps the solution to the "standout" archetypes would be to simply have a "Hall of Fame" entry that highlights the best archetype (or archetypes in case they're compatible) for each class. That way we can give the Razmirian, ZAM, etc. their due for being standouts without having to distort the scale for them.
Might also be fun to do a "Hall of Shame" which highlights the one archetype for each class you should never take (if applicable).
I really like this idea. For Monk, the obvious Hall of Fame entries are Zen Archer and maybe Tetori (in either case, add Qinggong as needed). For Sorcerer, the obvious Hall of Fame entry is the Razmiran Priest. For Barbarian, maybe Invulnerable Rager. For Magus, maybe Bladebound and/or Hexcrafter. For Fighter, none right now, but if the Armor Master's Guide does for it what the Weapon Master's Guide did and then we get a hypothetical Bravery Guide that does something similar, the standout could well turn out to be vanilla Fighter.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Perhaps the solution to the "standout" archetypes would be to simply have a "Hall of Fame" entry that highlights the best archetype (or a couple of archetypes in case they're compatible) for each class. That way we can give the Razmirian, ZAM, etc. their due for being standouts without having to distort the scale for them.
That's just another way of saying "hey, there are items on top of the scale, let's make a new scale for those".
If you're going to give each class a "best" archetype that's just going to create lots of arguments that "my favorite archetype is better than yours". Items on top of the scale already stand out for having the highest available rating; we can add some color coding to clarify that, but otherwise I see no reason to complicate a well-functioning system just for the sake of two or three potential exceptions.
I like it.....maybe a little section with the innocuous title of 'Fame & Shame'
I noticed the Kineticist wasn't done, and since that one's so short (and easy) I thought I would take a stab at it.
Blood Kineticist (Power +1/ Versatility -1)
Water is a solid element, Wrack is guaranteed damage, Bleed damage is often useful, and Foe Throw itself is one of the most fun reasons to play a Kineticist but the real problem is that you won't be able to affect opponents who lack blood (constructs, the undead) until you take a second element. So make sure that the premise of the campaign isn't going to hamstring you, as you're unlikely have fun tromping through the dungeon of golems and skeletons looking for something that bleeds.
Elemental Annihilator (Power +1, Versatility -2)
You give up all of your utility (i.e. non-combat) talents in order to be better at smashing faces. Your damage output certainly will spike with the archetype, but you're going to miss out on the fun stuff (at-will invisibility, being able to fly by shooting jets of flame out of your wrists, etc.) in order to do more damage. It's a significant change in how you play this class, so consider if you really want to play a fighter with a more complicated way of doing damage.
Elemental Ascetic (Power -1, Versatility -1)
You're basically a hybrid of the monk and the kineticist, which is cool and flavorful but "let's add more monk to it" isn't a good way to make any class more effective. You limit yourself to melee range for your kinetic blasts, you take on monk restrictions regarding armor and encumbrance, in return you can use kinetic first for free, flurry with it like a monk, and advance your kinetic fist damage dice as you level. Very flavorful, but you're essentially limiting yourself to being a melee monk with better punching damage, which is hardly an improvement to the class.
Kinetic Chirurgeon (Power -1, Versatility -2)
You give up all of your abilities to modify your kinetic blast (so no area, or burst damage, no debuffs etc.) in order to be better at using Kinetic Healing, which wasn't very good to begin with. If you really want to be a dedicated healer, don't pick this archetype, pick something that's does't cause damage to itself or those it heals instead.
Overwhelming Soul (Power -2, Versatility -1)
This is a trap. Your first clue is that this archetype swaps out Constitution for Charisma as the statistic that fuels your primary ability, and that might be the worst such swap possible. Additionally you are incapable of taking burn to power up your wild talents. If you're honestly allergic to burn while playing a kineticist, just choose not to take burn and keep Constitution for the stat that powers your abilities (and be able to choose to take burn if the situation really merits it). The only think that improves this archetype is that you get a straight boost to attack rolls and damage that attempts to replicate the progression of the class power that improves your blasts as you take burn.
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Has anyone been keeping a link or compilation of all the ratings done so far?
Funny you should ask.
It is convenient to have atleast one link at each page (preferably at the top), but it is rather tedious to keep posting it. Maybe a forum admin could edit the original post with the link?Repost, just cause I can.Obligatory link to the document!
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Elemental Annihilator (Power +1, Versatility -2)
You give up all of your utility (i.e. non-combat) talents in order to be better at smashing faces. Your damage output certainly will spike with the archetype, but you're going to miss out on the fun stuff (at-will invisibility, being able to fly by shooting jets of flame out of your wrists, etc.) in order to do more damage. {. . .}
Wrists? And all this time I thought Kineticists flying on jets of fire were doing it like Brijidine Azaatas (I mean, you know, they have a good reason for liking spicy foods . . .) . . .
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Overwhelming Soul (Power -2, Versatility -1)
This is a trap. Your first clue is that this archetype swaps out Constitution for Charisma as the statistic that fuels your primary ability, and that might be the worst such swap possible. {. . .}
Except that if you are something that takes a Constitution penalty (Elf/Drow, for instance) or doesn't have a Constitution score (Undead), this becomes semi-unavoidable (Constitution penalty) or unavoidable (no Constitution score). I wish they came up with something that you could substitute for burn, though (like for instance, burn Ki if you somehow manage to get a Ki pool, such as VMC Monk).
Except that if you are something that takes a Constitution penalty (Elf/Drow, for instance) or doesn't have a Constitution score (Undead), this becomes semi-unavoidable (Constitution penalty) or unavoidable (no Constitution score). I wish they came up with something that you could substitute for burn, though (like for instance, burn Ki if you somehow manage to get a Ki pool, such as VMC Monk).
If for concept reasons you really want to play an Undead kineticist, then yeah there's really no other choice. The problem with the archetype is that it just gives you almost nothing for "replacing an option to do something even if you might not want to do it all the time" with "never being able to do something you could do without the archetype." All you get for this is "you can reduce burn costs by 1 MAX(0,INT((Level-6/4))) times per day (which isn't very much at all), and "you get an ability that replaces the bonuses you would get from elemental overflow". It's not that trading away metacurrencies is inherently bad, it's that trading away metacurrencies and getting almost nothing in return is a terrible idea.
That's on top of trading CON for CHA too. I think if I did want to play an elf kineticist, I would probably still prefer to stick with constitution because even though you start with lower amounts, it's still a better stat to increase with magic items and level ups than charisma. Like your basic blast is range 30, so you're going to be hanging out in charge range (and to be outside of it, you'll need to take on burn), you're going to want a high constitution in any case.
but "let's add more monk to it" isn't a good way to make any class more effectiveNinjas and pre-errata sacred fists would disagree with you.
Well, the ninja upgrading the rogue is probably an example of "you can't fall off the floor", whereas the latter was fixed by errata and you could make errors that make anything too good.
But you can change that to "'let's add more monk to it' is not generally a way to make any class more effective," if you like.
Quick Update:
I decided to add the revised Monk scores and the Kineticist. For those who are keeping track, here are the remaining classes that need an archetype guide.
Anti-paladin
Bard (Unfinished, may finish it, but want to open it up as well)
Brawler
Cavalier
Cleric (Need Revised Scores from Silver Surfer before I can say it is done)
Druid
Investigator
Medium
Mesmerist
Ninja
Occultist
Paladin
Psychic
Rogue
Samurai
Shaman
Slayer
Spiritualist
Swashbuckler
Warpriest
Second, I so far have 12 people that have requested access to the document and can comment on it. If I am just missing something and people wanted editing rights, then that is my bad, but I have not seen any comments on the document. Really just checking in to see what was going on.
Thirdly, once again thank you everyone for contributing! I am slowly working through the document, and I may delete some of the bloat for some of the archetypes, and also try to get the format consistent for all archetypes. I also saw the discussion for a Hall of Fame/Shame. Interesting, but I think that would almost be a different thread and purpose. Just my two cents though.
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I've finished running through the Summoner archetypes. Synthesist will probably be the big sticking point; after thinking on it I decided to rank it at -1/+1. The loss of the eidolon proper is a hit to his versatility, but the merged forms give unique opportunities for a single more powerful amalgam.
** spoiler omitted **...
Nice list there. Makes me want to tey some of them!
My only complaint is the Morphic Savant versus the Unwavering Conduit. MS hives to a lot of extra options with a shifting Eidolon, even granting you base forms you otherwise couldn't have. (Protean is suddenly good pre 8.) You can have one form as a melee combatant, one as an fantastic skill monkey, and the third to cover something like reach or Grab tactics. In something like PFS, this is invaluable. The single evolution point is easily patched up. It merits a V+1 in my book.
And the Unwavering Conduit, it's restrictions are obnoxious. Limited skill ranks (and how does it work if the Summoner dumped Int?) Keep it from being a great skill monkey, and the progession of evolution points means you're basically stuck with the 1-point upgrades until you pony up for a scroll of a 4th level spell and a 1k gold component cost. Evolution Surge mostly makes up for that, but the archetype that makes you jump through hoops to do the things the Vanilla version had as a given. I say it merits V-1
@Icy Turby: We can comment on the document itself? How do we do this? (Sorry if I'm missing something blindingly obvious when I open it up.) I'd like to get Sensate Fighter and my Weapon Master re-rate in there, as well as a typo fix.
@JAMRenaissance: Cool. Needs some cleaning up (why do some of the style feats appear twice in a row?), but a good start.
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Looking at Archives of Nethys, you might want to remove Ninja as they do not have any archetypes listed.
Here is some thoughts on the Anti-Paladin
Dread Vanguard (Power +1(+2 for a prepared battle site)/Versatility +1)
Give up spell casting or use of spell trigger/completion items for additional area effects. A bit harsh but real effective for the guy you left behind to guard the evil altar with his buddies (GM's, this is the guy you use for a boss fight. Visions of a demon teleporting out, getting his friends, and then showing up behind the good guys)
Fearmonger (Power -2/Versatility -2)
The Anti-Paladin that makes people afraid... and does not do a good job of it. Lose Touch of Corruption to gain a few additional hit points that only happens if someone fails a save vs. fear, along with being locked into getting Shaken, Dazed, and Frightened to gain Panicked? No thanks. Why have the good guys run away to fight another day... you want their still beating hearts tossed into the brazier.
Knight of the Sepulcher (Power +1(-2 at 20th)/Versatility +1)
Dying to become undead. The class is rather flavorful until you hit level 20, where you are darn near immune to everything but positive energy... thus becoming a target of every good cleric and paladin for miles around. Oh, hope you have a real good Charisma score since that is now what you use for hit points in place of Constitution. Now where did I put that Rod of Resurrection
Rough Rampager (Power -2/Versatility -2)
This archetype is not very useful given the very limited range of the power, it might be better off as a function of Touch of Corruption. The -4 to Con/heal checks is not worth the -4 to fear saves that can effect Paladins. Aura of Putrefaction would be better if it was 1 + 1 bleed a round for every 3 levels of the anti-paladin than just 1 point. The capstone power is useless if the good guys drag them away from you and since you only block out 10', they do not have far to go.
Seal-Breaker (Power -1/Versatility -1)
Nice attempt but not worth swapping out, with the capstone requiring you to use your next standard action after a creature dying to activate it, along with two uses of your Smite Good. The one good ability, Corpse Rider, should be an option for the class in the first place. Rather than having that fiendish servant or bonded weapon, you get to use an undead horse or such as a mount. If you are playing an Anti-paladin, you might want to talk to your GM and see if you can use this one option in their game (shades of Molly Hatchet).
^I thought a couple of Rogue archetypes actually do work with Ninja . . .
For Antipaladin, now you can add The Insinuator. I'll let you rate it for consistency, but I'm going to guess Power -1, Versatility +1 -- on the one hand, this loses a lot of Antipaladin powers (including spells) for inferior versions thereof, but on the other hand, not only can Insinuators ally with different varieties of Evil or even a few Neutral Outsiders, even changing this day by day, but the restriction to Chaotic Evil is loosened to any Evil -- this is HUGE enough that potentially an Insinuator could even achieve significant mileage running for President.
a little confused as to how the Dread Vanguard gets +1 Versatility from your description. Are the extra area effects that much more versatile than the spells?
Also, are you counting undead immunities as a bad thing?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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^I thought a couple of Rogue archetypes actually do work with Ninja . . .
There is ongoing debate on whether or not that's allowed, and so far (to my knowledge) none of the devs have clarified.
That said, I'd assume that if these were legal, they would have the same value to a ninja as to a rogue.
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d20pfsrd also shows Ninja as having no archetypes from Paizo. If there are, then it might need to be mentioned in the Rogue section. Looking over the Insinuator, it appears to be rather subjective to the GM's whim.
"An insinuator who willfully commits self less acts or engages in violence that doesn't further his own ends loses all class features (including his outsider servant, but not bonus feats or weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies)."
stacked with
"If he violates the code of conduct of his invoked outsider patron, he must similarly seek atonement from outsiders of that alignment again."
In addition, you might be better off starting off as Neutral evil and summon a true neutral outsider so that the your Smite Impudence works on anyone other than true neutral.
Insinuator (Power +1/Versatility +1)
A bit of an odd duck, the Insinuator seems be a mishmash of talents but works. While losing out on the spells that an anti-paladin has, they gain lay on hands/Mercies and additional combat feats/Skill focus at later levels. The ability to increase the saves for your friends and decrease your enemy's is useful, if in a small area. This is the guy the GM sneaks into the group, to betray them later or the warrior out to conquer.
(I would like to see the Paladin's auras increase based on level or using a lay on hands/Touch of Corruption)
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a little confused as to how the Dread Vanguard gets +1 Versatility from your description. Are the extra area effects that much more versatile than the spells?
Also, are you counting undead immunities as a bad thing?
Here is what I had written up as I was looking over the archetype
Dread Vanguard (Power +1(+2 for a prepared battle site) / Versatility +1 )
Give up spell casting or use of spell trigger/completion items for additional area effects. A bit harsh but real effective for the guy you left behind to guard the evil altar with his buddies
Beacon of Evil: Lets see, I lose the ability to cast spells or use spell trigger/completion items in place of an additional Touch of Corruption every 4 levels. I am more partial to spells but a 50% increase to your ToC before adding in any Charisma mods is worth it. The increased area of morale boosters to AC, Attack/damage, Saves vs. Fear (+1/+2/+4) for your buddies along with fast healing (3/5) and being able to make ranged touch attacks with ToC up to 60' at 20th makes it worth it, more so if you have an evil cleric in the group or if the anti-paladin is also undead so they can ToC themselves. (GM's, this is the guy you use for a boss fight)
Dark Emissary (Sp): You gain the ability to make areas with desecrate (14th) symbol of pain (17th), and symbol of weakness at 20th that stack. Not bad but the additional ability to have it as a very familiar focal point for teleport/scrying spells is a win. All you give up is Aura of Sin and that can be replaced with an unholy weapon,even if you no longer have the 10' range part.
as for undead immunities, I feel that they are good up until the Knight of the Sepulcher is considered undead, at that point it is a matter of time before they are hunted down. (This would be a good one to make as a Death Knight or such)
Cleric (Need Revised Scores from Silver Surfer before I can say it is done)
I did that a few pages ago; I suppose you missed it. I'm reposting it here. I only added my own reasoning where my opinion substantially differs on the score given by the original contributor.
Asmodean Advocate
Power 0
Versatility +1
Cloistered Cleric
Power -2
Versatility -2
Crusader
Versatility -1
Power -1
Devilbane Priest
Versatility -1
Power 0
Devout Pilgrim
Versatility +1
Power 0
Differing opinion: While this archetype has numerous restrictions that limit which kinds of builds can benefit from it, all of its downsides are relatively easy to work around and the ability to provide your domain bonuses to allies is particularly useful. If it fits your build, it's a great archetype.
Divine Strategist
Power +1
Versatility -1
Ecclesitheurge
Power -1
Versatility +1
Herald Caller
Power +1
Versatility +1
Hidden Priest
Power -1
Versatility -1
Iron Priest
Power 0
Versatility +1
Merciful Healer
Power -1
Versatility -1
Roaming Exorcist
Power 0
Versatility -1
Scroll Scholar
Power 0
Versatility 0
Differing opinion: While the benefits are sparse, the penalties can be worked around rather easily. It's not a great archetype, but it's workable.
Separatist
Power 0
Versatility 0
Differing Opinion: This archetype is difficult to rank due to the fact that its usefulness is setting-specific. In a setting with a small number of deities and a ban on non-theistic clerics, it could easily be +1/+2 for allowing normally-illegal domain combinations. In settings with non-theistic Clerics allowed, or in a setting like Golarion where there's a huge pantheon to pick from, it's a lot less appealing.
Theologian
Power +1
Versatility 0
Undead Lord
Power -1
Versatility -1
Differing Opinion: This archetype has severe issues. The corpse companion is laughably weak and not even worth the downtime to replace when it dies. While unlife healer is a useful ability, it's not worth the draconian domain restrictions and was made obsolete in the same book it was published in by the variant channeling...
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Sorry for the delay - here are the stats. I've had a re-look at the archetypes and changed some of my comments, so best to use this entire version.
Appeaser: Power : -2 / Ver : -2
I have seen others disagree but in my mind they must be going blind...... an utterly abysmal archetype. As bad as the Cloistered Cleric.... now that’s saying something!!
Asmodean Advocate: Power : 0 / Ver : 0
OK if you want something a bit RP thematic but other than that... MEH!
Cloistered Cleric: Power : -2 / Ver : -2
Its been said many times what a complete waste of space this is.
Crusader: Power : -1 / Ver : -1
It gives up a fair bit for its selection of feats - if there were some more options it might make a push to 0 or +1 but other than that... no thanks.
Devilbane Priest: Power = 0 / Ver = 0
OK... gives up a domain for Heavy Armour and a few feat options.... depends on the campaign I guess. Almost makes a +1 but not quite due to the domain hit.
Devout Pilgrim : Power = +1 / Ver = +1
Not bad at all, the restricted domain isn’t great but the important thing is that you still keep both. Caravan Bond is potentially very useful.
Divine Strategist: Power = 0 / Ver = 0
OK.... if for whatever reason you are obsessed about winning initiative every time at the expense of everything else then great!... Nothing beats this... But overall I think it just evens out - it needed WIS to initiative to really make it work.
Ecclesitheurge: Power = +1 / Ver = -2
For 90% of builds it really isn’t worth it for a variety of reasons - the idea was great but it was poorly designed and didn’t go far enough. However.... there is the glaring exception of the Scribe Scroll build. With some feat investment and the right race, its pretty easy to get your UMD bonus high by 7-9th level. Now here comes the clever part..... most deities grant 5 domains and 5-6 subdomains and with this archetype you can shuffle your way through them all, scribing all the non-cleric spells as you go, which for some of the deities is quite significant. The idea gets even more interesting as a cleric of a philosophy where you just handpick all the best domains and subdomains. Even if you never scribe scrolls off a wizard or druid (which you would) you still end up with an impressive variety of spells at your disposal that can be cast with ease. It can get a bit pricey as you get higher but its still pretty solid. However, due to the way archetypes are ranked, I have to give it one overall grading - BEWARE its +1 power is highly conditional! The archetype still irks me as a golden missed opportunity!!
Evangelist: Power = +1 / Ver = -1
A good option if you want to focus on buffing. However the loss of a domain, channel dice, medium armour and shields is quite a hit and will impact on what you can do overall. In addition the replacement of spontaneous heals/harms is a step down IMO - the spells given not being up to scratch. Gets a lot of undue hype I think.
Herald Caller: Power = +1 / Ver = +2
The best cleric archetype IMO by a long way - makes a really effective summoner and due to basically receiving 3 free feats and a trait, means you still have room to play around with your build. In fact the free feats and a trait make this archetype - even if you don’t invest in sacred summons it still makes a great summoning build. There is enough potential left to get some specialisation in an additional area. For example Feather Domain for an animal companion, Ash for blasting, Void for some more summon buffing, Hangover Cleric ... etc
Hidden Priest: Power = -1 / Ver = -1
Really... what is the point of this?!
Iron Priest: Power = 0 / Ver = 0
Depends entirely on the campaign and what is available.
Merciful Healer: Power = -1 / Ver = -1
OK if what your party needs is 9th level casting with an emphasis on healing, pretty terrible for anything else!
Roaming Exorcist: Power = 0 / Ver = 0
OK.... but incredibly niche and could easily be viewed as a -1.
Scroll Scholar: Power = -1 / Ver = -1
Gives up loads for some very wishy washy abilities...... you don’t even get Scribe Scroll!!
Separatist: Power = 0 / Ver = 0
Very situationally dependent. If you’re in a campaign with restricted list of deities a definite +1/+1. Even if you’re not, you may potentially want a domain purely for its spell list and be prepared to put up with the delayed domain power progression. However, these days there are so many deities available that pretty much any domain combination is viable (including the legendary Travel & Trickery combo!!) - thus its usefulness is diluted. V.good back in the day!
Theologian: Power = 0 / Ver = 0
Gets a lot of hype as a blaster and may be useful in some scenarios, but you are pretty much wired into the Ash subdomain as your sole choice, which although great, is completely fire based - the most common resistance going. The Metamagic feats are OK but nothing to get excited about. There should have been some way to modify your element or maybe give a couple of bonus feats. Deceptively MEH!
Undead Lord: Power = 0 / Ver = -1
Really should be a +1/+1 archetype but was designed poorly. Evil clerics are supposed to be the masters of the undead and this really just falls short. There are some good elements to the build like the bonus feats but the corpse companion is really bad. In my mind it should have further traded medium armour and shield for some better goodies.
a little confused as to how the Dread Vanguard gets +1 Versatility from your description. Are the extra area effects that much more versatile than the spells?
Also, are you counting undead immunities as a bad thing?
I played vanilla AP for years until someone on the boards talked me into trying a Dread Vanguard for my Dhamphir AP. Holy Smoley...it was amazing. The AP spell list is very weak. The extra ToC plus the auras that help everyone in your party including summoned monsters or undead minions just make it a far superior option than the vanilla AP.
It occurs to me I never did racial archetypes for the alchemist. Time to correct that!
Alchemical Trapper (Kobold)
Power 0
Versatility 0
This archetype is quite problematic, and while it doesn't quite reach the level of -1 in either category it comes very close. The pain of losing two discoveries at low levels means you don't gain the discovery class feature until 6th level, which is a very long time to wait. The bomb trap is situational, trapfinding is a mediocre class feature and comes pretty late on this archetype. If this is what you want to do, it works, but it's not that great.
Bogborn Alchemist (Grippli)
Power 0 or -1 (depending on GM ruling)
Versatility 0
Like other Alchemist archetypes that trade off throw anything, this one's rating depends on whether your GM rules that it affects bomb damage. If it does, the tradeoffs are simply not worth the minor improvements, but otherwise it's a very minor trade for little cost and little benefit.
Bramble Brewer (Half-Elf)
Power +1
Versatility 0
Access to fast healing at low levels is a very potent ability indeed. While it only functions in bright light, and thus isn't available reliably until a party member can afford to cast a daylight spell on you, when you can gain these benefits it allows for considerable amounts of healing between encounters for free. The other abilities are mostly neutral, and while this archetype won't be getting its full benefit when scrounging in a dark dungeon it's not going to be suffering either.
Deep Bomber (Svirfneblin)
Power 0
Versatility +1
While silent bombs are largely useless by RAW (it doesn't actually change the perception check to notice your attack), targeting bomb is a great way to deal with enemies using invisibility or concealment and a few off-list spells rounds things out nicely. You give up relatively little to use this archetype, making it a very appealing choice for a Svirfneblin.
Fire Bomber (Goblin)
Power +1
Versatility -1
This archetype gives you more fire power, but makes non fire-based bombs less effective. The off-list elemental body spell line is nice, but the restriction of only transforming into fire elementals limits its utility. Overall this can leave you extremely vulnerable against fire-resistant or immune foes, even if your fire-based attacks are all the more potent.
Plague Bringer (Ratfolk)
Power 0
Versatility 0
I'll save you actually reading through that huge wall of text that is the plague vial ability: the Plague Bringer can sicken enemies for 1 round/level. That's it. The ability can't be used in conjunction with mutagen, and you need to buy back mutagen with a discovery if you want it. While it's easy to make that buyback, the ability itself is rather mediocre and only redeemed by the fact that it doesn't interfere with your ability to maintain a dose of mutagen, allowing you to carry a dose of each at any given time.
Saboteur (Gnome)
Power 0
Versatility 0
There are exactly two reasons to pick this archetype. The first is to grab the highly prized Hide in Plain Sight ability at the 12th level through its exclusive Greater Chameleon Mutagen discovery. The second is to abuse Complex Bombs to combine bomb discoveries that force saving throws against nasty effects; for instance, combining a frost and force bomb to threaten both to knock the target prone and stagger it. The other things on offer here are largely useless, but you're only paying mutagen (something you can buy back with a discovery) so if you want those other benefits this archetype can work.
Winged Marauder (Goblin)
Power +1
Versatility +2
You trade off mutagen - something you can buy back with a discovery - for an animal companion. True, there are only two options of animal types available to you, but are you really going to complain about being given a flying mount at the 1st level? This archetype delivers exactly what it promises right out of the gate, and with very little tradeoff.
^Svirfneblin are good, but no way are they 24 RP good. The Advanced Race Guide Race Points system is broken.
^It has been pointed out elsewhere on these boards and in various guides that most types of spell resistance are also good against your own party's rescue spellcasting efforts.
I would agree that Blindness/Deafness should probably be something that they don't get out of the box, but instead spend a feat to upgrade to (like the Noble Drow series of feats, although it doesn't need to be that long a feat chain -- that one might be a bit TOO long). But then again, Svirfneblin Magic only costs 2 RP, so the RP system is still broken.
Some more archetypes have been added in Arcane Anthology and other recent material, and are now out on www.d20pfsrd.com: These are spread among several classes, but of the classes for which I have reviewed archetypes and thus need to update, these include Enlightened Bloodrager, Relic Master Fighter (actually from the Weapon Master's Handbook), and Rhetorician Witch(*) -- I'll have to post updates for these later.
(*)Weird combination -- somebody at Paizo must be having Donald Trump nightmares . . . .
There's quite a few more archetypes than that in Arcane Anthology. Unsurprisingly there is an archetype for each of Wizard, Sorcerer, and Arcanist so I'll rate those.
The archetypes in this book are all over the place in terms of quality, but there's one in particular that will require you to pick your jaw up off the floor after you read it. It's literally the biggest buff the Rogue has ever gotten, unambiguously surpassing unchained rogue. I'm serious, get ready to pick up that jaw:
I mean, wow. Just wow. That changes everything. +2/+2 with no questions asked, and a one-way-ticket for the Rogue to tier 3. There's a similar one for Fighter, but it's nowhere near as good since it trades off way more and gets way less.
Anyways, on to Wizard/Arcanist/Sorcerer:
Sword Binder (Wizard)
Power -2
Versatility -2
The Universalist Wizard suffers on two fronts, lacking specialist spell slots and also having one of the most underwhelming class features of any wizard school in Hand of the Apprentice. This archetype attempts to rectify this problem by removing every class feature other than Hand of the Apprentice. The only useful ability on this archetype (the ability to hold the charge on a missed range touch spell) is ruined by the fact that it forces you to target AC rather than touch AC to use this ability, practically ensuring you will always miss. To add insult to injury, you trade off your 10th level bonus feat for a spell-like ability that duplicates a limited version of a spell you can already cast. This archetype is as close as you can get to trading away all your class features for nothing.
Magaambyan Initiate (arcanist)
Power +1
Versatility +1
With so much off-class goodies in one place, and the costs nicely distributed across your career, this is a very nice archetype. The Magaambyan Initiate offers the easiest way for an arcane caster to qualify for the Sacred Summons feats while simultaneously giving you limited access to the Druid spell list. While at first glance Spell Mastery as a bonus feat may look useless, hidden in that wording is a little gem: your Arcanist class level counts as your Wizard level for the purpose of qualifying for any feats, meaning this archetype gives you access to all Wizard discoveries. Overall a very nice package.
Stone Warder (sorcerer)
Power: +2
Versatility: -1
The Stone Warder is a very pigeon-holed archetype; it only functions in select environs (though fortunately fairly common ones), it locks you out of a very large range of spell options, and you're stuck with an exceedingly limited selection of bloodlines. However, in return the Stone Warder gains a caster level bonus of unmatched magnitude, capping out at a whopping +5 to all your spells at the 20th level. That alone is a lot of power.
If that wasn't enough, it also qualifies for Ninja tricks and pays the ki cost by sacrificing 1st level spell slots.
Actually the rogue always had the ability to take ninja tricks as rogue talents, the problem was that he needed the ki pool to activate them and the talent providing a pool was terribly weak.
There's quite a few more archetypes than that in Arcane Anthology. {. . .}
I know, I was just pointing out the ones in classes that I rated (which I am going to have to wait a bit on adding to, because I have to get up early for work :-P ). Actually, although reportedly Fighter has an archetype in Arcane Anthology (Child of Acavna and Amaznen), but I can't find it on www.d20pfsrd.com, and Archives of Nethys hasn't been updated since 2015-12-15.
I have the book, so here's the low-down on the Child of Acavna and Amaznen:
Gains:
+ 4 skill points per level and addition class skills
+ Gains wizard cantrips at the 2nd level
+ Gains "Eldritch Armor Training" at the 3rd level, which works like the arcane armor training feat line and stacks with the feat line.
+ Gains prepared intelligence-based spellcasting starting at the 5th level, using the Ranger spells per day progression and the Bloodrager class spell list. Caster level is equal to fighter level.
Loses:
- Proficiency with shields and all martial two-handed weapons
- Bonus feat at the 1st, 2nd, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels
- Weapon Training (all levels)
- Although it doesn't lose Armor Training, that class feature is modified so it's incompatible with archetypes that do swap out Armor Training.
Overall a much steeper trade for much less benefit than the Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue, so I don't see it making anywhere near as big a splash. Losing weapon training is also a pretty big deal now that weapon master's handbook is a thing. Perhaps most disappointingly it's total horse manure at level 1-4, since the real payoff doesn't start until level 5.
Okay, I finally have a bit of time out from work, so here are my ratings for the new archetypes in the classes for which I did ratings before:
Newly Introduced Bloodrager Archetypes
Enlightened Bloodrager (Dip versatility +1, power +1; Full versatility +1, power -1): The good: Unlike most Bloodragers, you get Wizard Cantrips and Druid Orisons (starting at 1st level) and spells known as if you were a Medium, AND you get access to the entire Druid spell list up to 4th level spells (and they even interact properly with your other Bloodrager class features such as Greater Bloodrage) without losing access to the Bloodrager spell list. In addition, at 4th level, your Bloodrage no longer confers a penalty to your Armor Class or prevents you from using some of your skills, without gaining the limitations of Urban Bloodrager's Controlled Bloodrage (although unlike an Urban Bloodrager, you can't redirect the Bloodrage bonus to Dexterity). And you don't even lose Uncanny Dodge or Improved Uncanny Dodge. The bad: You lose damage reduction in exchange for adding Expanded Arcana and the Nameless One series of feats -- the latter seems rather situational, while the former is nice but nothing you couldn't have done using a regular feat. The ugly: Your Bloodline Power progression is delayed by 8 levels (except 7 levels for the 1st level Bloodline Power). For a Dip, if you didn't need the 1st level Bloodline Power, this could be pretty good, and even okay if not great for moving on to another martial class that gives you 4/9 spellcasting (most of which have no Cantrips or Orisons). For Full progression, the extra spell versatility and upgrade to your Bloodrage are nice, but the loss of damage reduction and huge delay in Bloodline Power progression really hurt; if your GM allows unlimited use of the Primalist archetype (replacing one or more Bloodline Powers with 2 Barbarian Rage Powers each), this upgrades to Full versatility +1, power +1.
Newly Introduced Fighter Archetypes
Child of Acavna and Azmanen (preliminary rating due to not being able to see official text -- instead using Dasrak's post) (Dip versatility -1(?), power -2(?); Full versatility -1(?), power -1(?)): Getting additional skill ranks per level and class skills is good, and getting Wizard Cantrips (at 2nd level) is good, but losing the first 2 bonus feats is bad, and losing proficiency with both shields and all martial two-handed weapons is bad. And that's just the dip levels -- and note that if you were dipping in any kind of Fighter, chances are that you wanted two-handed weapon or shield proficiency, although if you are dipping Fighter and then moving on to some other martial class that gives you back at least one of these proficiencies, it could be not completely terrible (although the requirement to dip 2 levels to get the Cantrips makes this rather bad for moving on to martial classes with 4/9 spellcasting). Moving on to Full progression: Gaining prepared casting of Bloodrager spells (slightly delayed, but with full caster level) is good, but note that the Eldritch Armor Training (modifiecation of Armor Training) works like the Arcane Armor Training feat, which means that it eats Swift Actions, which is bad, and you lose Bonus Combat Feats at levels 8, 12, 16, and 20 AND all Weapon Training (odd for an archetype introduced shortly after the Weapon Master's Handbook, and strangely you don't lose Weapon Mastery) -- not a good combination. If you want to be a martial spellcaster, better to play a Bloodrager (Enlightened Bloodrager if you want the Cantrips) for spontaneous spellcasting or a Myrmidarch Magus for prepared spellcasting. The latter gives you both Weapon Training and 6/9 spellcasting, meaning that you get compensated for most of the loss of Base Attack Bonus relative to this Fighter archetype AND you get better spellcasting (even with Myrmidarch's Diminished Spellcasting), as well as access to Advanced Weapon Training, and no Swift Action sink.
Relic Master (Dip versatility +1, power +0; Full versatility -1, power -1): For a dip, the only effect (unless you go to 3rd level) is a swap in skills; depending upon what you are doing after the dip, replacing Handle Animal and Ride with Knowledge (Arcana) and Use Magic Device might be quite useful. For Full progression, things get worse: Armor Training is replaced by the ability (initially once per day, and later gaining a few more uses) to use Item Mastery feats with more versatility or more times per day, but this means you have to specialize in Item Mastery feats to get full advantage of this feature (as opposed to just dabbling in them); this will probably become more painful when the Armor Master's Handbook comes out. What hurts even more is that Weapon Training (although strangely not Weapon Mastery) is replaced by a non-scaling ability to increase the enhancement bonus or caster level of one of your magic items (this is odd for an archetype introduced in the Weapon Master's Handbook). The Dip could be very useful, but I have to say pass on Full progression or even on a 3 level Dip.
Newly Introduced Witch Archetypes
Rhetorician (Dip versatility +1, power +1 to +2; Full versatility +0, power +1): Somebody at Paizo must be having Donald Trump nightmares to have come up with this archetype, although unfortunatey it isn't compatible with White-Haired Witch (the older Donald Trump archetype -- he must be in really good favor with his GM). For a Dip, this archetype is already quite useful, giving you Perform (but strangely ot Diplomacy) as a class skill, and replacing the 1st level Hex with Immediate Action ability to negate an opponent's Diplomacy efforts. This scales with your skill ranks instead of your class level, so you need a dip of only 1 level to get full use of it, or 2 levels if you want an actual Hex. Note that since this archetype does not give you Diplomacy as a class skill, the power rating varies depending upon whether another class you are taking gives you Diplomacy as a class skill (otherwise, you need to use a trait to get it). For Full progression, this ability retains its usefulness, but you need to get Diplomacy as a class skill (from a trait or maybe from a dip in another class), and all of your Patron spells are replaced with a fixed list of bonus spells -- although for a political villain, gaining access to Glibness at 6th level, Sculpt Sound (use against non-Psychic enemy spellcasters) at 8th level, Modify Memory at 10th level is VERY useful, and Song of Discord at 14th level can be thought of and used as Heightened and somewhat improved Confusion.
Note that the Eldritch Armor Training (modifiecation of Armor Training) works like the Arcane Armor Training feat, which means that it eats Swift Actions, which is bad
It is notable that the Fighter isn't typically a class that has much option for swift action economy to begin with. If there's anyone that can reliably suck up the swift action cost of arcane armor training, it's this new Fighter archetype. Still, I do agree with your conclusion that it's pretty outclassed by the other martial-caster options that exist.