Not sure if serious...magic stuff glows dude.
People can see magic? News to me. I'd just think it's look like masterwork items. And what rich guy WOULDN'T have masterwork? DC 20 Appraise check checks are needed for normal items. +5 for magic. How many in the crowd are rolling 25's to figure out things are magic?I don't care if it sings and does a jig, you need a standard action and a DC25 appraise check to figure out something is magical. That's the rules.
Either that or people are casting detect magic on everyone.
Totally serious. You have NO way of knowing it it's an actual magic item, a spell cast or a construct unless you make the rolls. A magic glow can be cantrip level magic...
A 25 DC appraise check lets you know it's magic but not even that tells you what kind or how powerful. People could GUESS that a glowy necklace is magic but they'd need to handle it and make the check to know if it's actually magic or something else. Illusions and glammers exist and making an item glow isn't exactly high level...
I don't think theorycrafting is bad, however sometimes the tone used in some posts about theorycrafting...are not conducive to further discussion. Posting your initial thoughts on a class is good. Posting your initial thoughts, in a slighty rephrased manner, multiple of times and in multiple threads...is less useful. It comes across as shouting.
Doing the above, but then also including phrases like "garbage", "pathetic" or similar phrasings and descriptive terminology and exaggerations. Or slamming the devs, and demanding they respond to you. Well whatever you are doing, its certainly not constructive criticism.
Honestly I think the above just burns out the devs, who do read everything here. and contrary to what some posters may think, it certainly doesn't make them more likely to accept your "words of wisdom" on class options.
Well in some cases, it really is...
The zealot is the worst offender of this. Like a good half to 3/4 of it's talents literally ripped word for word out of the Inquisitor Class. There is barely any difference between the Zealot and the Inquisitor.
Also, it feels like many of the problems are being not really being addressed. For instance, the Talent Starved nature of the Vigilante. We are instead told that there will be even more talents AND most likely no "Extra talent" feat. This is something a lot of people don't understand since Oracles, Magus, Witches, Barbarians, Alchemists, and Arcanists have.
Also, it feels like many of the problems are being not really being addressed. For instance, the Talent Starved nature of the Vigilante. We are instead told that there will be even more talents AND most likely no "Extra talent" feat. This is something a lot of people don't understand since Oracles, Magus, Witches, Barbarians, Alchemists, and Arcanists have.
This. Those new talents better be twice as good as Oracle revelations to justify no "Extra talent" feat. If not, the class is instantly relegated to being sub-par.
If anything I've always found that in practice characters are weaker than in theory.
Sure, in theory, my Fighter can trip anything within 5 CR with a decent chance. In practice I can't trip most stuff because of flight or size invalidations.
magic stuff glows dude.
People can see magic? News to me. I'd just think it's look like masterwork items. And what rich guy WOULDN'T have masterwork? DC 20 Appraise check checks are needed for normal items. +5 for magic. How many in the crowd are rolling 25's to figure out things are magic?
That's only true for a fraction of magical weapons, some specific items and equipment made with the unchained magic crafting rules that have certain random qualities.
Light Generation: Fully 30% of magic weapons shed light equivalent to a light spell. These glowing weapons are quite obviously magical. Such a weapon can't be concealed when drawn, nor can its light be shut off. Some of the specific weapons detailed below always or never glow, as defined in their descriptions.
TPKed 4 vigilantes tonight. Will try again tomorrow.I'm not sure if that's a joke, but color me interested in the full story if it isn't.
I can believe it.
One is 75% of an Inquisitor.
One is 75% of a Magus.
One is a squishier 85% Fighter.
One is 75% of a Pre-Unchained Rogue, meaning it's about 50% of an Unchained Rogue.
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I have a feeling that my Vigilante player would have probably been axed had the player not been both the most-experienced powergamer among us, and had been very, very careful.
Given, we were playing Scourge of the Slavelords.
I can only imagine how fine a red mist he would have been had we been playing Tomb of Horrors...
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Well in some cases, it really is...
The zealot is the worst offender of this. Like a good half to 3/4 of it's talents literally ripped word for word out of the Inquisitor Class. There is barely any difference between the Zealot and the Inquisitor.
Also, it feels like many of the problems are being not really being addressed. For instance, the Talent Starved nature of the Vigilante. We are instead told that there will be even more talents AND most likely no "Extra talent" feat. This is something a lot of people don't understand since Oracles, Magus, Witches, Barbarians, Alchemists, and Arcanists have.
Yes...but you have personally already stated this...How many times? The devs have stated they read through all of the posts in this forum. Do you think repeating the same critique 3 or 4 times, that on the fourth time the Developers will suddenly go "OMG WE NEED TO FIX THE ZEALOT"?
I mean I don't even disagree with you on the zealot needing more options to make itself distinct. But me posting that 20 times...is not going to magically cause the developers to respond, and I think in unison with other posters as well as the..tone...which often accompanies posts like these. It doesn't actually help anyone, and may even hurt the class by causing subconscious push back from the developers and driving playtesters away before they even look at the class.
Also it's been...a weeks since the playtest started? What makes you think the developers are not working on solutions? I mean there were people criticizing the lack of developer response the day after the playtest.
Not sure if serious...magic stuff glows dude.
People can see magic? News to me. I'd just think it's look like masterwork items. And what rich guy WOULDN'T have masterwork? DC 20 Appraise check checks are needed for normal items. +5 for magic. How many in the crowd are rolling 25's to figure out things are magic?I don't care if it sings and does a jig, you need a standard action and a DC25 appraise check to figure out something is magical. That's the rules.
Either that or people are casting detect magic on everyone.
Totally serious. You have NO way of knowing it it's an actual magic item, a spell cast or a construct unless you make the rolls. A magic glow can be cantrip level magic...
A 25 DC appraise check lets you know it's magic but not even that tells you what kind or how powerful. People could GUESS that a glowy necklace is magic but they'd need to handle it and make the check to know if it's actually magic or something else. Illusions and glammers exist and making an item glow isn't exactly high level...
The entire point of this conversation was to determine if a general group of people could tell if someone was an "adventurer."
A typical adventurer is packed to the hilt with equipment, much of it is typically very expensive and magical.
It's completely irrelevant whether they make a check to know with absolute certainty that the very fine and expensive magical backpack (which is bulging full of equipment), the very fine and expensive magical quiver, the glowing magical headband, the perfectly made and expensive looking armor, the three very expensive and magical swords - two of which are glowing - the glowing three ioun stones floating in mid air and circling their heads, the very fine and glowing magical cape, the very expensive magical gloves, the very fine magical boots, the very expensive magical rings, the very expensive magical necklace, the very expensive magical bracers, and more are all actually magical.
Most people don't walk around dressed like that. It's very safe to assume they're "adventurers."
Heck, no matter what society I'm currently in, I can almost always tell a modern day "adventurer" when I see one: they almost always seem to be dressed like this
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TPKed 4 vigilantes tonight. Will try again tomorrow.I'm not sure if that's a joke, but color me interested in the full story if it isn't.Got caught in a burning building while changing.
(joking. but that actually almost happened to one. but had a spell to escape when the fire was noticed)
Not a joke. Actually came close to two TPK's. Hoping to get some more playtesting done with different players today, but no guarantee.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2se5x?409-Blakros-Matrimony-4-Cheliax-Vigilante s#1
A typical adventurer is packed to the hilt with equipment, much of it is typically very expensive and magical.Not sure if serious...magic stuff glows dude.
People can see magic? News to me. I'd just think it's look like masterwork items. And what rich guy WOULDN'T have masterwork? DC 20 Appraise check checks are needed for normal items. +5 for magic. How many in the crowd are rolling 25's to figure out things are magic?I don't care if it sings and does a jig, you need a standard action and a DC25 appraise check to figure out something is magical. That's the rules.
Either that or people are casting detect magic on everyone.
Totally serious. You have NO way of knowing it it's an actual magic item, a spell cast or a construct unless you make the rolls. A magic glow can be cantrip level magic...
A 25 DC appraise check lets you know it's magic but not even that tells you what kind or how powerful. People could GUESS that a glowy necklace is magic but they'd need to handle it and make the check to know if it's actually magic or something else. Illusions and glammers exist and making an item glow isn't exactly high level...
And MY point is that if you're in a high society social gathering that requires a social mode to go to, would it be odd to see the rich and powerful people there also carrying very expensive and magical and magical gear? To me it would be odd if they DIDN'T!
SECOND!!!!! as pointed out above, magic doesn't innately glow and it takes a 25DC appraise check to figure out things are magic. At best, someone thinks you're carrying nice stuff. Without a 20DC check you can't even tell it's worth...
THIRD: look at noble/royal outfit once. "ostentatious, with gems, gold, silk, and fur in abundance", includes a "a royal scepter, crown, ring, or other regal accoutrements". "Precious metals and gems are worked into the clothing, along with elaborate embroidery" and "needs a signet ring and jewelry (worth at least 100 gp) to accessorize this outfit."
How exactly is the adventurer standing out again? It's NOT because he has expensive gear, as that should be the norm.
FORTH: If you expect the edventures to have all those items, why did you forget the Sleeves of Many Garments or a Hat of Disguise? Or did they waste all thier cash on needless glow enchantments?
Pretty much all this 'adventerer' detection boils don't to guesswork on your part that isn't backed up by the rules. Not wearing the right clothes or failing diplomacy checks might let people know you're adventurers, but general equipment worn? Not by anything I've seen.
Wait... Paizo doesn't have any dedicated playtesters??? Even Plaid Hat Games has a playtesting department!
Quick response from the core rulebook:
Light Generation: Fully 30% of magic weapons shed light equivalent to a light spell. These glowing weapons are quite obviously magical. Such a weapon can't be concealed when drawn, nor can its light be shut off. Some of the specific weapons detailed below always or never glow, as defined in their descriptions.
So yes. Some magic items do inherently glow.
Quick response from the core rulebook:
Light Generation: Fully 30% of magic weapons shed light equivalent to a light spell. These glowing weapons are quite obviously magical. Such a weapon can't be concealed when drawn, nor can its light be shut off. Some of the specific weapons detailed below always or never glow, as defined in their descriptions.So yes. Some magic items do inherently glow.
1/3 of magical weapons glow != magical items glow.
The entire point of this conversation was to determine if a general group of people could tell if someone was an "adventurer."
A typical adventurer is packed to the hilt with equipment, much of it is typically very expensive and magical.
It's completely irrelevant whether they make a check to know with absolute certainty that the very fine and expensive magical backpack (which is bulging full of equipment), the very fine and expensive magical quiver, the glowing magical headband, the perfectly made and expensive looking armor, the three very expensive and magical swords - two of which are glowing - the glowing three ioun stones floating in mid air and circling their heads, the very fine and glowing magical cape, the very expensive magical gloves, the very fine magical boots, the very expensive magical rings, the very expensive magical necklace, the very expensive magical bracers, and more are all actually magical.
Most people don't walk around dressed like that. It's very safe to assume they're "adventurers."
Heck, no matter what society I'm currently in, I can almost always tell a modern day "adventurer" when I see one: they almost always seem to be dressed like this
If we wanted to correct your post so that it was more accurate, we would remove EVERY mention of glowing except for the weapons, and only one of them would glow (1/3 of them, or roughly 30%).
Also, a few other things.
Magic weapons and armor are just masterwork gear with enchantments. Other items don't even need to be that. There is no reason why an adventurer can't be walking around with what appears to be some masterwork kit and well made but plain clothing (including a little bit of silver jewelery). You are making an enormous amount of assumptions about how adventurer gear appears, and very little of it is actually backed up by the rules.
Lastly, most adventurers would not have bulging packs if they are loaded with magic items. They would have handy haversacks. Haversacks are fairly small and inconspicuous bags.
Quick response from the core rulebook:
Light Generation: Fully 30% of magic weapons shed light equivalent to a light spell. These glowing weapons are quite obviously magical. Such a weapon can't be concealed when drawn, nor can its light be shut off. Some of the specific weapons detailed below always or never glow, as defined in their descriptions.So yes. Some magic items do inherently glow.1/3 of magical weapons glow != magical items glow.
The entire point of this conversation was to determine if a general group of people could tell if someone was an "adventurer."
A typical adventurer is packed to the hilt with equipment, much of it is typically very expensive and magical.
It's completely irrelevant whether they make a check to know with absolute certainty that the very fine and expensive magical backpack (which is bulging full of equipment), the very fine and expensive magical quiver, the glowing magical headband, the perfectly made and expensive looking armor, the three very expensive and magical swords - two of which are glowing - the glowing three ioun stones floating in mid air and circling their heads, the very fine and glowing magical cape, the very expensive magical gloves, the very fine magical boots, the very expensive magical rings, the very expensive magical necklace, the very expensive magical bracers, and more are all actually magical.
Most people don't walk around dressed like that. It's very safe to assume they're "adventurers."
Heck, no matter what society I'm currently in, I can almost always tell a modern day "adventurer" when I see one: they almost always seem to be dressed like this
If we wanted to correct your post so that it was more accurate, we would remove EVERY mention of glowing except for the weapons, and only one of them would glow (1/3 of them, or roughly 30%).
Also, a few other things.
Magic weapons and armor are just masterwork gear with enchantments....
I never said all. I said some. 30% counts as some.
My example may have been over 30%, but it 100% counters the argument that it is impossible to tell if a magical item is magical without detection magic or making a 25 DC check.
Flat out in the rules it states that magic items which glow are obviously magical.
Ergo, people who see magicalblowing object can tell it is magical, and since adventurers tend to be decked out with magic items, it's very likely that a group of people will be able to tell that they are adventurers. Heck, I even linked to a picture of a cliche adventurer that got completely ignored.
Am I going crazy here, or are people really ignoring the obvious just to try to make an point about looking at someone carrying around tons of gear and saying they are indistinguishable from a nobleman?
Unless, of course, anyone wants to argue that a mid to high level character really doesn't have all the gear listed on it's character sheet at any given time. I have never seen a player properly organize their character sheet to designate that this particular wand and that particular potion on the character sheet aren't with the character but actually at the characters home.
For the record, I prefer rocker recliners.
For the record, I prefer rocker recliners.
I like sitting on the floor
For the record, I prefer rocker recliners.I like sitting on the floor
The optimization floor? But the optimization ceiling is so much better!
I pretty sure the bodyguards are going to stop anyone to attend a party with a +3 greataxe tackled on his shoulder. Or a magical pack that could theoretically carry enaugh of them to equip a small army.
I pretty sure the bodyguards are going to stop anyone to attend a party with a +3 greataxe tackled on his shoulder. Or a magical pack that could theoretically carry enaugh of them to equip a small army.
Curse you, i tried my best to not make that joke -.-
I never said all. I said some. 30% counts as some.
you are misrepresenting it. Read the part YOU quoted. "Such a weapon can't be concealed when drawn, nor can its light be shut off."
So ONLY weapons are mentioned to glow sometimes. Even then, then the glow can be concealed when not drawn.
So unless the 'adventurers' are waving weapons around that HAPPEN to fall into the 30% that do glow, they are FORCED to make those appraise checks of 25 to figure out they are carrying enchanted objects.
Am I going crazy here, or are people really ignoring the obvious just to try to make an point about looking at someone carrying around tons of gear and saying they are indistinguishable from a nobleman?
I was thinking the reverse. I wondering why people are ignoring the printed rules and instead making up rules that every item glow JUST so that adventurers are somehow instantly identified. Do assassins and rogues in your world lose the ability to sneak and hide because they picked up magic items and they now glow enough that you can see them from space?
I never said all. I said some. 30% counts as some.you are misrepresenting it. Read the part YOU quoted. "Such a weapon can't be concealed when drawn, nor can its light be shut off."
So ONLY weapons are mentioned to glow sometimes. Even then, then the glow can be concealed when not drawn.
So unless the 'adventurers' are waving weapons around that HAPPEN to fall into the 30% that do glow, they are FORCED to make those appraise checks of 25 to figure out they are carrying enchanted objects.
Am I going crazy here, or are people really ignoring the obvious just to try to make an point about looking at someone carrying around tons of gear and saying they are indistinguishable from a nobleman?I was thinking the reverse. I wondering why people are ignoring the printed rules and instead making up rules that every item glow JUST so that adventurers are somehow instantly identified. Do assassins and rogues in your world lose the ability to sneak and hide because they picked up magic items and they now glow enough that you can see them from space?
I'm really getting tired of you putting words in my mouth and making things up, so I'm done taking to you.
I'm really getting tired of you putting words in my mouth and making things up, so I'm done taking to you.I never said all. I said some. 30% counts as some.you are misrepresenting it. Read the part YOU quoted. "Such a weapon can't be concealed when drawn, nor can its light be shut off."
So ONLY weapons are mentioned to glow sometimes. Even then, then the glow can be concealed when not drawn.
So unless the 'adventurers' are waving weapons around that HAPPEN to fall into the 30% that do glow, they are FORCED to make those appraise checks of 25 to figure out they are carrying enchanted objects.
Am I going crazy here, or are people really ignoring the obvious just to try to make an point about looking at someone carrying around tons of gear and saying they are indistinguishable from a nobleman?I was thinking the reverse. I wondering why people are ignoring the printed rules and instead making up rules that every item glow JUST so that adventurers are somehow instantly identified. Do assassins and rogues in your world lose the ability to sneak and hide because they picked up magic items and they now glow enough that you can see them from space?
Ergo, people who see magicalblowing object can tell it is magical, and since adventurers tend to be decked out with magic items, it's very likely that a group of people will be able to tell that they are adventurers. Heck, I even linked to a picture of a cliche adventurer that got completely ignored.
YOU said that because some magic item can be detected sometimes by a glow that people will be "very likely" to tell adventurers. The logical conclusion is that people with magic item are assumed to glow by default. Taking it further, that means people that try to sneak with magic items also glow.
So, I'm not 'putting words in your mouth'. I'm going by the logic you put forth for why the appraise skill isn't needed to identify magic items despite the skill saying it's a 25dc. If you don't like where your logic leads, you should reexamine your logic and not get mad at me for pointing it out it doesn't make sense.
To be clear, you are trying to leverage the fact that 30% of unsheathed magic weapons glow into people just know your items are magic and you are an adventurer.
As to the 'cliche adventurer', it's just that. It has less than zero to do with this. If YOU think that's what every adventurere looks like, great. I've never seen someone outfitted like that, especially at a party and doubly so for someone with 'magicalblowing' magic items that likely include extradimensional spaces than make the 'cliche adventurer' pic just seem silly.
It's actually rather hard to mundanely identify an item as magical rather than just masterwork. And even if people do have detect magic, my vigilante has a wand of magic aura.
Wait... Paizo doesn't have any dedicated playtesters??? Even Plaid Hat Games has a playtesting department!
They do, but more data is better than less data.
The design and development teams basically ARE the playtest teams. Despite how large Pathfinder has become, I don't think the company has more than 60 employees yet. That's why actually PLAYING the class is so important for a playtest.
I don't know if this has been brought up yet through all the flame wars, but I'm pretty sure theory and practice are both necessary to make a successful play test.
For instance, there are several options that we can identify as stronger or weaker than others or from options that existed in the game prior to this. Considering how short of a play test we actually get out would be inefficient to actively test those options.
The other component about theory testing I'd that we absolutely need it in order to actually pass the line between testing and playing because we need to know how the abilities work in order to actually play them.
You need both.
And that is a significant part of the problem. What does being a Vigilante add, that isn't already covered as well or better by a few skills and spells.
Especially, what does the vigilante gain for losing access to the majority of its class features. If there was a decent gain in being in social mode, it would be a risk v. reward decision, which is good design. At the moment, the social mode can do almost nothing that action mode can't do just as well.
I think it very telling that in the playtest posted by Thrawn007, the action mode vigilantes were just about as good in every scenario that is supposed to be for social mode. Because action mode still has the 6 skill points a level, and has options if things go wrong.
Well, for my character, being in social identity means I don't get attacked by guards...
That's a GM or player created issue that just as easily could apply to a rogue, and just as easily be thwarted by regular use of disguise.
Well, for my character, being in social identity means I don't get attacked by guards...And that is a significant part of the problem. What does being a Vigilante add, that isn't already covered as well or better by a few skills and spells.
Especially, what does the vigilante gain for losing access to the majority of its class features. If there was a decent gain in being in social mode, it would be a risk v. reward decision, which is good design. At the moment, the social mode can do almost nothing that action mode can't do just as well.
I think it very telling that in the playtest posted by Thrawn007, the action mode vigilantes were just about as good in every scenario that is supposed to be for social mode. Because action mode still has the 6 skill points a level, and has options if things go wrong.
You mean like disguise self, alter self, Realistic Likeness ect.
If it's the nondetection, you can get that without losing abilities. For instance, the wanderer can spend a ki point to get it for 24hrs. Rakshasa Bloodline get it at 9th for free. By the level people are scrying, you can cast Nondetection. Heck, pathfinder even has a race that get Nondetection, so losing your powers for it seems wrong.
Haven't read any of this thread, don't care.
Figured this was a decent place to re-post my first playtest results.
Starting level 10 soon.
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I think it's already been stated that the "lose" your powers side of things will be getting revised before the class goes live, so I'm done with harping on that part of the class. I think at this point the biggest thing that is helpful that we can all do is just test different builds IN VIGILANTE MODE and ignore social until we know how the rule changes take effect.
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It is pretty typical with our playtests for the armchair feedback to rapidly outpace the actual playtesting. It catches up a bit by the end, once folks have had time to get in a game or two.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
OK Sir, I give up. Although I will debate the value of actual playtest, I will make an 8th level Vigilante for my next Shackles game this Friday, and tell you how it went.
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OK Sir, I give up. Although I will debate the value of actual playtest, I will make an 8th level Vigilante for my next Shackles game this Friday, and tell you how it went.It is pretty typical with our playtests for the armchair feedback to rapidly outpace the actual playtesting. It catches up a bit by the end, once folks have had time to get in a game or two.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
here's the character i plan to playtest with... while in vigilante form she's CG and her hat of disguise gives her a shiny mirror like finish all over and her head is an expressionless closed faced helm with mirror visor (think cobra commander mixed with cap America mixed with metal Mario lol)
She adopts her "silver maiden" look when she reaches her jaded quota on the pirate ship she serves, and she's as likely to strike against her most greedy or evil crew mates as she is likely to strike against the enemies of her ship...
To her ship mates she is known as the jovial and very friendly quartermaster. She keeps the ship stores well supplied and her customers ahem... satisfied.
BUTANDRA
(Mwangi, Bonuwat) Female Vigilante 8
CN Medium Human / Humanoid (Human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +13
==DEFENSE==
AC 21, touch 10, flat-footed 21 (+8 armor, +3 shield)
hp 58 (8d8+8)
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +8
Armor Breastplate (Agile) +2, Medium
Shield Light Steel Shield +2
==OFFENSE==
Spd 30 ft/x4
Melee Unarmed Strike +14/+9 (1d3+18) 20/x2 CM +1; [PA]
Melee Unarmed Strike +15/+10 (1d3+12) 20/x2 CM +1; [TW-P-Lt]
Melee Light Shield +12 (1d3+3) 20/x2 [TW-S]
Melee Light Shield +13 (1d3+18) 20/x2 [2HD]; [PA+Charge]
==STATISTICS==
Str 22, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 14
BAB +8, CMB +14, CMD +24
Feats Armor Proficiency (LIGHT / MEDIUM) (PFCR 118), Charge Through (PFAPG 156), Cleave (PFCR 119), Improved Overrun (PFCR 127-128), Improved Shield Bash (PFCR 128), Improved Unarmed Strike (PFCR 128), Power Attack (PFCR 131), Shield Slam (PFCR 133), Two-Weapon Fighting (PFCR 136), Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) (PFCR 136-137), Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike) (PFCR 137)
Skills Bluff +13, Climb +17, Diplomacy +13 [Gather Information +17], Disguise +23 [Act in character +43], Intimidate +13 [Vigilante identity +17], Perception +13 [Social identity +17], Profession (clerk) +13, Sense Motive +13 [Social identity +17], Stealth +8
MC Vigilante Specialization: Avenger, Vigilante Talent 1 (Close the Gap), Vigilante Talent 2 (Fist of the Avenger), Vigilante Talent 3 (Shield of Fury), Vigilante Talent 4 (Signature Weapon: Unarmed Strike), Renown, Startling Appearance, Loyal Aid
Traits Charger (Regional) (PFCo: ISP), Reactionary (Combat) (PFAPG 328)
Languages Common, Polyglot
==Magic==
Eq'd Magic Belt of Giant Strength +2, Boots of Striding and Springing, Hat of Disguise, Amulet of Mighty Fists +2