An utopia ruled by a super-intelligent magic user council. How do I crash it?


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I have created a world that is ruled by a council of five demi-god like beings who "reached enlightenment" by studies in magic. They have intelligence and wisdom scores of 40 and have created the perfect society, erased poverty and rules like a communist state, but the people are happy and prosperous.

In my campaign, I want this realm to sort of fall apart to make it more interesting. But how do five level 20 magic users with immense wisdom and intelligence with contingency plans for contingency plans lose control of the realm?

I have thought of clichés like an artifact making it impossible to use magic, or that the wizards will lose their power if they venture outside of the capital city or that it is overthrown by a coup from within. But all these seem overused to me and it is hard to not remain in power when you have constant access to "detect thoughts", "detect alignment" and "zone of truth"

Any ideas?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The council had to leave - dealing with some crisis or another on another plane, billions of lives in the balance.

Of course the council have people they rely on to run things for a year or two while they are away. Of course, one of the council temporaries previously had some fortune told that he or she would meet their end by a small band of people that sound vaguely like the PCs, yet not so much like the PCs that one can be certain.

Now it is up to the PCs to survive, take down the temporary councilor, and somehow not step on the toes of the other temps.

To help the PCs, the doomed fortune temp councilor can't use too much force or else the rest of the temp councilors may feel that power was abused. Essentially the ill-fated temporary councilor has to be a bit subtle (and challenge consistent for the PC group and their allies).

Scarab Sages

Try the Might & Magic route - the world is unexpectedly invaded by malicious fiends or aberrations, and is divided so that large parts of the world are cut off from the rest and fall into comparative barbarism.

Another idea: These ubermenschen you've got are getting so close to godhood that some established gods take it personally, and challenge them one-on-one. Some of your beings prevail, but others don't, and the whole world suffers for their loss.

An alternative to that is that they're godlike enough to be drafted by the established gods into a seriously apocalyptic heavenly war - these buddhas get how serious it is and have to heed the call, and their utopia has to do without them for a while, which is where the problems start. Hmm, this one kinda got ninjad.


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The councilors complete their enlightenment and become gods. Unfortunately, this also binds them by the same laws that limit real gods; they cannot directly interfere with the mortal world. They can grant power to worshippers and intercede in special circumstances, but are otherwise barred from the world.

This leaves a huge power vacuum and the structure of the utopia falls apart as those maintaining it can no longer do so directly. Their underlings are probably the first to become their priests and rush about in a panic to try to stabilise the failing nation.

Other nations take this opportunity to invade without fear of the nigh-omnipotent leaders. Chaos everywhere!

Maybe even horrific things the councilors had sealed, become unsealed as their power leaves the material plane.

It doesn't just go bad in one way. It goes bad in every way. The nation was so utterly reliant on their perfect leaders that they are helpless without them.


The structure of magic is bound at least in part by dualistic principles. The council set things up to reflect this, to guard against corruption of magic. However, this means that not only WILL they come in conflict, they will also not be able to resolve it without weakening magic as a whole. Over a very long time, the council has lived in barely concealed warfare, plotting and one-upmanship, always careful not to show this to everyone else. And then, one of them had enough.


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Your description sounds a bit like what Xin's plan was. Didn't turn out too well! ;)


A small child shows up, and asks "Why?"


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These "demi-god like beings" could still be mortal, and thus susceptible to the ravages of age. In their prime they established a utopia, but as they slide into senility they become a threat to their own creation.

There are few scarier things than someone who can kill you with their mind, might do so for putting too much milk in their tea, and won't remember doing it 5 minutes later.


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The Council being super smart and powerfull forget how normal People Think and act and loose popular support. Every time they try to appeal to the People they end up looking elitist and nobody love an elitist attitude on leaders that "know better"
In short the normal folks turn on the system and wreck it.


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Kraftword wrote:

I have created a world that is ruled by a council of five demi-god like beings who "reached enlightenment" by studies in magic. They have intelligence and wisdom scores of 40 and have created the perfect society, erased poverty and rules like a communist state, but the people are happy and prosperous.

In my campaign, I want this realm to sort of fall apart to make it more interesting. But how do five level 20 magic users with immense wisdom and intelligence with contingency plans for contingency plans lose control of the realm?

I have thought of clichés like an artifact making it impossible to use magic, or that the wizards will lose their power if they venture outside of the capital city or that it is overthrown by a coup from within. But all these seem overused to me and it is hard to not remain in power when you have constant access to "detect thoughts", "detect alignment" and "zone of truth"

Any ideas?

People would not likely be alive in a communist state because someone always wants more and will try to cheat the system to get it. I would suggest you make it so that the people are not perfectly happy OR have invaders, maybe outsiders, come in and ruin things. It can be by using direct violence or by putting ideas into the people's heads.


As always I am stunned with the creativity this community possess. Thank you and keep the ideas coming if you have any


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The council realizes that their enlightenment is so much greater than that of the world at large that their continued leadership will eventually prevent others from achieving the same enlightenment and will cause the world to stagnate.

Mortal beings require challenge to grow and advance and if they continue to guide the world creativity will die, ingenuity will die, the spark of individuality and adventure in their people will die. The entire plane will grind into mental stasis as mortal beings stop thinking and blindly accept their absolute benevolent guidance.

This will not happen immediately but it will happen eventually so the Council starts to retreat from the world without explaining why to anyone. The world will fall into chaos, the structured responses the Council had in place start to break down, corruption returns to the world, etc.

This sets up a challenge that their mortal followers will need to rise to investigate and those that successfully do then prove themselves worthy to be set upon the path of enlightenment and perhaps be the new leaders.

But in the time it takes for all this to happen, the world is reinvigorated, the people have to think for themselves, creativity once again flourishes.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Manufacture a war, and train an army of Clones to serve the council and then betray them.


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Kraftword wrote:

I have created a world that is ruled by a council of five demi-god like beings who "reached enlightenment" by studies in magic. They have intelligence and wisdom scores of 40 and have created the perfect society, erased poverty and rules like a communist state, but the people are happy and prosperous.

{. . .}

But have they reached enlightenment in morality, or just in power? We saw how the latter turned out in ancient Thassilon. In their pride, the council can certainly crash the utopia themselves.

Also, as we have seen on Earth, erased poverty and happiness and prosperity just do not go together with a Communist state. What do you see when you go off the streets that they show off to visitors?


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Kraftword wrote:

I have created a world that is ruled by a council of five demi-god like beings who "reached enlightenment" by studies in magic. They have intelligence and wisdom scores of 40 and have created the perfect society, erased poverty and rules like a communist state, but the people are happy and prosperous.

In my campaign, I want this realm to sort of fall apart to make it more interesting. But how do five level 20 magic users with immense wisdom and intelligence with contingency plans for contingency plans lose control of the realm?

Personal grudges, rivalries within the five, misunderstandings, betrayals, and other human/mortal foibles. They might understand all magic and have all kinds of power at their beck and call, but that doesn't stop them from having fears, wants, greed, lusts, pride, embarrassing secrets and flaws, and other things that can break up their happy little utopia.

As stated by others, as well, a communist state puts limitations on the populace that not everyone will be happy to abide by. Particularly your chaotic-aligned citizens. Your CG people will want the freedom to make their own way in life, rather than being cogs in the machine where everyone has their little place in life and stepping out of line risks messing up the mechanism. Your CN people will be too unpredictable and unorthodox to fit into society normally. Your CE people will not care about making sure things run smoothly and may go out of their way to cause disruption.

The lawful types are no less prone to disruption, however. LG participants may note that the system isn't exactly fair - everyone gets the same thing, regardless of who puts in more effort and who just coasts along, meaning that extra work and extra time aren't rewarded, while just "coasting along" and doing the bare minimum expected seems to be encouraged. LN types may quickly become Judge Dredd-like, imposing harsh punishments often above the necessary for even the slightest infraction, as anybody who might dare to cause even the smallest disruption could swiftly be branded as a threat to the whole system. LE people will search for loopholes and advantages in the system, eager to pull themselves higher on the totem pole, all completely legal and above the board but surely putting others at a disadvantage to gain prestige for themselves.

Think of what happened in communist states in the real world. Lenin started Communist Russia... by slaughtering a bunch of the nobility and seizing control, at that... but then when he died Stalin took control and twisted his and Trotsky's intents, whether you agreed with them or not, into something far worse. The situation in China was similar. Inevitably, something similar could happen in this world. What happens when a sixth person reaches this magical "enlightenment" stage? What happens if one of the five loses their "enlightenment" somehow? Or dies? Who are their enemies, rivals, rebels and revolutionists, outside oppositions? What are their conflicts internally - not just in their country, but within the five themselves? These are all seeds for the discontent and disorder you desire.

Silver Crusade

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The utopia provides time for several citizens to reach the stage where they want more; more say in what goes on; more control over their own lives. Imagine the harm a chaotic neutral enchanter and/or his bard friend, at 20th level with a few mythic tiers could do by rabble rousing about "free speech" or "taxation without representation" or "tear down this wall".

Or imagine a group of PC's who insist on violating the non-interference policy of the demi-leaders. We are going to stop the slavery in the land next door even if it causes war with Utopia Kingdom.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

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It just takes one of these smug, self-important types to find a "man-is-not-meant-to-know" type book and _almost_ understand the cosmic potential of this knowledge. Knowledge that only he/she can use for good and justice.

If only those last few pages were clearer... if only you didn't need to be actually insane to understand it. If only you weren't convinced your contingencies would allow you to become insane for just a short while....

Sovereign Court

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Enlightenment is not a stationary thing. If you don't continue to advance on the path, you stagnate and eventually backslide. You can hold your place for a while, but not forever.

So some of the councillors are getting worried; shouldn't they proceed themselves? Others resent this; if some of them abandon their station, can the rest keep the whole thing together?

Then there's tension in the council room; some want to advance, others are trying to keep them from doing so. The struggle starts as just a philosophical debate, but eventually grows into something worse, with some of the stagnant councillors trying to control the others to prevent them from leaving.

.

Besides that, the step the even greater enlightenment will also chance a councillor's perspective; the great things he did according to his current stance, are not all that desirable or even bad to a more enlightened one.

.

Asuras are fiends born from the mistakes of the gods, and they seek to always undermine reality further. They might target this group, introducing flaws into the system subtly.

.

Outside this perfect world there is an infinite cosmos, with infinite demonic armies. They can be held off for a while, but if they continue to try to invade the world, eventually some will get in and start causing damage.

An utopian society is often weak against deliberate attacks on the system from outside. Demons could target people and corrupt them. Or just rain terror down on this world. Terrified people can no longer do their part to keep the whole system working, and the breakdown begins.

The enlightened rulers may have been able to run an entire world when it was well-organized, but the demons undermine that system, break command chains and shatter institutions.


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When in doubt turn to the sanity breaking horrors of the Far Planes. One of them goes on a deep astral journey and comes back......wrong.

The Wrongess spreads quickly and before you know it you have 5 god-like wizards trying to sacrifice the city to a Great Old One.

or maybe just 4 God-like wizards and one just barely clinging to sanity enough to ask for help from a local band of adventurers


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On that thought, where are the adventurers - most notably the PCs - coming from in this world?

In your typical D&D setting - Greyhawk, FR, Eberron, Golarion, Dragonlance, etc. etc. etc. - adventurers thrive because there's always some hidden darkness, some evil empire, some lurking force, some SOMETHING that's threatening the land. Even if it's as simple as the goblin raids at the beginning of Rise of the Runelords.

In a "perfect utopian" society, these threats will have been - at least to the majority knowledge - dealt with and not a problem for most common people. There will be organized armies and special forces to deal with external threats, but internal should be minimal to none, the few complaints dealt with by their equivalent to a local militia or police force.

Unless you're going entirely with the "fish out of water", "thrust into unexpected circumstances", or "hidden potential talents" routes for all your PCs, you're going to need an explanation for how, in this perfected civilization, you've got your usual adventurer necessities - not just things for adventurers themselves to do and a reason why they wouldn't just say "leave it to the cops", but things like inns, hidden treasure, enemies to fight in reasonable scale, and so forth.


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^The PCs aren't "the majority". One easy implementation of this is that the PCs are the cops. Or maybe Troubleshooters.


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wraithstrike wrote:
Kraftword wrote:

I have created a world that is ruled by a council of five demi-god like beings who "reached enlightenment" by studies in magic. They have intelligence and wisdom scores of 40 and have created the perfect society, erased poverty and rules like a communist state, but the people are happy and prosperous.

In my campaign, I want this realm to sort of fall apart to make it more interesting. But how do five level 20 magic users with immense wisdom and intelligence with contingency plans for contingency plans lose control of the realm?

I have thought of clichés like an artifact making it impossible to use magic, or that the wizards will lose their power if they venture outside of the capital city or that it is overthrown by a coup from within. But all these seem overused to me and it is hard to not remain in power when you have constant access to "detect thoughts", "detect alignment" and "zone of truth"

Any ideas?

People would not likely be alive in a communist state because someone always wants more and will try to cheat the system to get it. I would suggest you make it so that the people are not perfectly happy OR have invaders, maybe outsiders, come in and ruin things. It can be by using direct violence or by putting ideas into the people's heads.

That was not what I meant to write.

The word "alive" should be "completely happy". I was thinking of something else I was about to write, and somehow "alive" slipped in. The rest of it fits what I was going to say though.


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^Don't worry. To survive in a Communist system, it's best to be dead inside.


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Well sir, can I suggest a man of uncalcuable cunning?

I've played a PC who went against gods and kingdoms, using a series of frail excuses. He was Lawful Evil and sought the advancement of the reputation of both himself and his family name, in order to do so he actually built schools, houses, roads, making people love him. He freed legions of Gnolls from demon lords, Orcs from brutal Cheiftains, and goblins from hobgoblins, He was of Mixed Decent being Drow, Orcish, Human and Goblin (Just a half elf wih the half drow tree combined with racial heritage goblin and orc bloodline sorcerer)...

Basically he went on to build an empire of Military, Finance and Education with a Limited Monarchy that was given a great name and a hearty pay cut.... and he took it from both evil and good men along with Demon lords and actual gods.. simply by being deceitful yet never lying, and being honorable but not trustworthy.

FInd one of those in your empire, an outcast... someone of natural ambition, someone who was made to lead even if they're not enlightened.

Yes Int and Wisdom are monopolized, but how about the other combinations? What about a man who's more charismatic than these demigods and doesn't play by the rules? Maybe some event happened that he has the credit for stopping, he might be a general, a slave, a priest, a lawyer, or even just a shopkeeper's assistant. Something makes him realize that he deserves more, and his followers might believe this too.

It also makes it so that your players are stuck between two forces that don't quite seem evil, Maybe they don't fully agree of who to back, The enlightened philosophers offer a world free of inequality and strife, but what advancement comes to those who really deserve it? Then there's the new hero of the commonfolk, who preaches a gospel of making your own path, and makes promises of improving certain aspects of the society, allowing people to attempt to attain true wealth and liberty... even if it means some will go hungry and the issues of capitalism will be raised?

Sorry you say communism, so i figure that means no money, and equal wealth between everyone, regardless of ambition or ability, which can be painted as liberty.

Just because people have what they need in abundance, and some of what they want, doesn't mean they aren't willing to go far to attain more, or even further to make attaining more a possibility.


If you really have five full casters with 40's in Int and Wis played to what those numbers actually mean, you can't do much to them personally without equally statted casters.

Utopia itself, however, is populated by less superhuman civilians. Just send in some Chaotic Evil Bards and watch it burn. Unless The Five have the resources (and moral bankruptcy) to mind control the entirety of their population, Utopia will fall. If they do it, then it is a Dystopia at that point and you have made it far more interesting.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kraftword wrote:

I have created a world that is ruled by a council of five demi-god like beings who "reached enlightenment" by studies in magic. They have intelligence and wisdom scores of 40 and have created the perfect society, erased poverty and rules like a communist state, but the people are happy and prosperous.

In my campaign, I want this realm to sort of fall apart to make it more interesting. But how do five level 20 magic users with immense wisdom and intelligence with contingency plans for contingency plans lose control of the realm?

I have thought of clichés like an artifact making it impossible to use magic, or that the wizards will lose their power if they venture outside of the capital city or that it is overthrown by a coup from within. But all these seem overused to me and it is hard to not remain in power when you have constant access to "detect thoughts", "detect alignment" and "zone of truth"

Any ideas?

The usual way these stories roll is that one of them betrays the rest, and assassinates them, because they can't imagine one of their own turning on them. Said being may or may not have assistance in doing so.

It's a classic trope that no matter how wise the leaders of the Golden Age get, something always goes wrong. It's also pretty much the premise of the history and fall of Thassilon.

Even the Abrahamic religions use this thrope proving it Older Than Dirt. Lucifer, the Archanngel of Light was of the topmost rank in the angelic choir, with no one higher than him save God. Even so he rebelled and took a third of the angels with him.

The moral is that even immense wisdom does not guarantee that all who share it come up with the same answers.


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I should also point out that it isn't necessary to crash the setting to make it interesting. For instance, the Federation in Star Trek is pretty untopian (but without the often-dreaded stagnation), even while containing some acknowledged warts. While I prefer Babylon 5, Star Trek also earned my respect, and while I have had some loss of respect for it since then, this did not have anything to do with discovering Babylon 5, but rather with Star Trek Voyager . . . :-(

Right now, I don't have a well-developed idea of how to merge Star Trek Federation structures with a fantasy untopia, but it sounds like a worthy challenge.

And the Star Trek universe DOES have the occasional betrayal in it. The question of how you keep a utopia in a universe that hates utopias is interesting in itself.


This reminds me of my reaction when I discuss the idea of "heaven" with people.

A world without conflict, struggle, or want. A world where eternal peace seems not only inevitable, but exemplified. Basically, completely boring.

Human existence is conflict and struggle. People ride rollercoasters, not conveyer belts. Although there are some who could accept such a life, there are also those who could not. These disaffected might try to channel those urges constructively, like practicing art. Then again, they may focus on cracking the veneer of civility and laying bare the savagery that ever lies beneath, like the Joker in Dark Knight.

I can see this going a couple ways:
1) The disruptor could begin destabilizing the perfect world by sowing doubt and fear amongst it's people. This leads to small outbursts of chaos, which prompts the players to be hired to investigate this matter, as it is too pretty to merit direct attention from a Councillor. The disruptor meanwhile increases scale, but carefully acts without exposing themself, possibly even using the players team as pawns in a gambit. By the time the Council sees it as worthy to intercede, public unrest is high enough that only magical emotion/mind control can restore the peace, but the disruptor (having purposefully pushed them into that corner) would use any such use of magic to shatter the unity forever. So, either they act and lose, or they don't act and lose.
Or
2) The players are the disruptor, or working for her/him. This would take players capable of subtle tactical thought, preferably skilled in intrigue, propaganda, and quick thinking. If they are working with the disruptor, they could still be hired to investigate the matter, and instead use the opportunity to carefully "thwart" the plans in ways that reinforce the message of fear and uncertainty.


Hubris. Declare a perfect utopia that the Gawds had no significant hand in shaping sooner or later results in an entire pantheon of "unhappy" deities. Natural disasters shattering much that they have wrought is very likely if our own mythology is any indication. One such example: the Tower of Babel.

Powerful rulers attract powerful enemies that covet what they have. There are always others with more power, or different power you've never encountered before. Just because you have a 40 INT does not by any definition mean that they've experienced asteroids falling from orbit, massively large scale pestilences that are strangely resistant to arcane magic. Or far, far worse. Aboleths wrecking their dreams. Cerebral parasites. Suicide bombers.

Those who go without want ... want more. Do the Benevolent Five escalate their Grand Vision of Peace and Kumbaya in order to keep their sheeple content? Do four of the five continue when one of their number tires of keeping up the charade?

Scythia's suggestion of 'Mistah J' being one of the PCs, cracking 'the system' just because he thinks the system is full of itself may represent a divinely empowered agent courtesy of one or more of the less pleasant Gawds. The 40 INT smartbags are in for a world of hurt when they get to tangle with a Mythic Suicide Squad.

<grin> " Why. So. SERIOUS! " *schlorp!*


You ever see an anime called Magi; Kingdom of Magic. It's about a young mage going to a city of Wizards to learn magic. A magical utopia lead by venerable and wise wizards. I think you can find it on Netflix, give it a look it might give you some extra ideas.

Grand Lodge

Simple reasons.

1 dies of a heart attack in his sleep, but isn't found for over a month, because he locked himself away to work on a big project; which s/he is prone to do.

2 got bored and went of vacation never to return in a continent far away.

1 made a deal with the devil to gain his/her power and the devil came to collect. He sacrificed himself instead of 1000s of deaths and souls of his nation. But he deserves it because he cheated to get power.

1 was asked by a god to help defend the world from something from beyond.

1 gets bored of living and says "screw it, i'm out".

1 one wants to live forever, and goes the lich route but doesn't tell anyone. Some random street urchin drops the secret urn that was a phylactery, mean while the lich trips down some stairs, but didn't prepare a fly spell.

1 one is poisoned, but didn't prepare remove disease, or never learned it, dying of his wounds (it could be multiple poisons.

1 is assassinated, easily done, because the mage had hubris and never locked his door, or had guards.


If the Utopia is created by these five ultra powerful magic users, what happens if their magic fails, or fades, or becomes unreliable in some way? Or maybe it is discovered (or "discovered" if it's false) that the overwhelming power these beings have gathered has a cost that is unacceptable to the populace, or is unsustainable in the long term. Maybe the high standard of living can only be maintained for a finite number of people, and the excess are kicked out of the Utopia, either literally or figuratively sacrificed for the Utopia to continue for those inside of it. For someone with the foresight and knowledge of a near godly being certain solutions might make perfect sense to them, but be unacceptable to shorter sighted people.

Finally, you can always do the "invaders from outside" angle. Maybe there are jealous outside states that band together, or an extra planar invasion. Maybe the Magic to power the Utopia is unknowingly attracting powerful horrors from beyond, horrible beings here to feed or destroy. Or maybe it's accidentally disrupting the fabric of the planes, causing powerful outsiders to come stop it.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Some ideas.
- One of the wizards becomes psychotic.
- An age-old rivalry erupts amongst the council.
- One of the council decides to "improve" the lesser beings they rule over, and the others object to the direction.
- One of their peaceful subjects achieves some level of enlightenment, and is rebuffed in their attempts to join the council. They form an anti-council of less enlightened but more sanguine beings.
- In their divinations, one of the council realizes the society is doomed by a future event, and succumbs to paralysis of the will.
- In their quest for greater enlightenment, of the council finds a plane of reality that has long been sealed off. In addition to their prize, they expose themselves and the realm to the influence of something... old.
- A group of dissatisfied rebels develop techniques that make them resistant to mind-reading and scrying (i.e. probably a Prestige Class).
- Their society uses so much magic that it causes pollution. As a result, clouds of magic sometimes affect the capital city, forcing concentration checks to cast spells and temporarily interfering with long-distance divinations and teleportation.
- A rival spellcaster wishes to learn their secrets, and builds a small army of androids who appear as living beings.
- The council has become so vast in their thinking that they sometimes get distracted for months at a time... recently one of their number has been lost in reverie for nearly two years.


Even level 40 magic-users have to sleep sometimes. No one is untouchable.

(For that matter, most "enlightened" civilizations don't long outlast their forebears, as history has demonstrated time and again. No matter how much they try to groom their heirs.)


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Cthulhudrew wrote:
Even level 40 magic-users have to sleep sometimes. No one is untouchable.

Etherealness+Keep Watch+Ring of Sustenance = technically "untouchable" without the need to sleep and the very limited need to rest...

(If you want extra gold cookie-stars, you need Invisibility+Mindblank as well...)

((If you want extra-extra gold cookie-stars, you need Create Demiplane+Permanency+Astral Projection an arbitrarily larger number of times with Greater Restoration as a Constant effect. Then the above on each of them with Mage's Private Sanctum on each of the demiplanes...))


Fair enough, though I daresay anyone who is going through the ritual of doing all of that every single day is probably already a little bit off, and might well be on the way to becoming somewhat unhinged if persisting in this practice for an extended period of time, which might well facilitate the collapse of the regime in and of itself.


Cthulhudrew wrote:

Even level 40 magic-users have to sleep sometimes. No one is untouchable.

(For that matter, most "enlightened" civilizations don't long outlast their forebears, as history has demonstrated time and again. No matter how much they try to groom their heirs.)

What history are you refering to here? Gameworld history, that is made up. Or Real World history, that is also partly made up and dosent have magic.

But i do like the idea of the heirs being the problem if the rules are immortal magic usere then the number twos will never get a seat at the table. That will cause problems someday.


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Watch Psycho Pass. The utopia is the Sybil system.

Or as some other the others have pointed out, the people messes up utopia. Like seriously. As powerful/enlightened as they are they are only 5 people. A mob, a secret cabal, politics, etc can ruin their day eventually. Especially if they become detached from society.

Alternatively one of the cabal becomes corrupt/even more enlightened and realizes that society is flawed and takes steps of his own to "remedy" it thus setting off internal strife among the council.


Have the mages be wanting more power. So they invoke things that should never be wakened or drain something of great power, and it goes very wrong. Cue heroes to save the world.

For example
they decide to convert the sun into a magic battery. They start building vast networks of runes linking gigantic pyramids to give them the ability to invoke this power. But it goes wrong (is sabotaged?) and devastation is the result. Now the sun is extinguished and needs to be reignited.


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Cthulhudrew wrote:
Fair enough, though I daresay anyone who is going through the ritual of doing all of that every single day is probably already a little bit off, and might well be on the way to becoming somewhat unhinged if persisting in this practice for an extended period of time, which might well facilitate the collapse of the regime in and of itself.

First: hahah, what? They're 40th level! That's just good sense for a morning routine (like brushing your teeth)! I mean, they had to take on forty balors (or the equivalent) just going from 22 to 23!

(Kind of like adventurers in a way: they often seem crazy, until you know what they deal with, and then their actions make much more sense.)

I understand what you're trying to get at, but you wouldn't have to cast those every day. Magic items, permanency, and even always-active multiple simulacra of yourself can easily cover all of your needs in this regard.

Point being: these guys've got all the power, time, and resources they could "possibly" need to get these things done.

Up to and including at-will (constant?) time stop, haste, wish, and miracle (among others).

Heck, even making (any Good) sentient magic items with the special purposes "serve me and help me keep this utopia running" means that you have a literally incorruptible (by rules) sentience who is absolutely devoted to enacting your will and keeping your utopia running (meaning that it uses those various magical abilities for you).

All that said... you don't crush forty balors without making a few super-enemies who can pull the same tricks you can...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A lot of people know that Solomon is presented as the wisest person in the Old Testament. His name is still synomonus with wisdom as the first letter in Billy Batson's magic word Shazam!

What many don't know is that despite his wisdom, Solomon at the end still becomes so wicked and debauched, that God tells him that he's going to sunder his kingdom and take the bulk of it away from his House.


Their overuse of magic has created a unbalance into the natural world. Birth rates plummet, most humanoid races become infertile.
The leaders of this utopia try in vain to help the problem using their powerful intellect and wisdom, they come to the conclusion that they must use more magic to remedy to the problem and attempt to manufacture artificial life.

They are so smart they decide to make their creation perfect, the new being grow up to be a messiah for the people as the crops now are failing and no more than a handful of children are born every year.

This being of incredible power realize the source of the problem. The being eliminate the leaders one by one, leaving a society craving more than ever for a savior. The being know that even with all the power in the universe he would eventually fail and that an imperfect and mortal leadership is require to guide mortals. He paint himself as an evil tyrant hopping for adventurers to dethrone him and save the world.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
UnArcaneElection wrote:

I should also point out that it isn't necessary to crash the setting to make it interesting. For instance, the Federation in Star Trek is pretty untopian (but without the often-dreaded stagnation), even while containing some acknowledged warts. While I prefer Babylon 5, Star Trek also earned my respect, and while I have had some loss of respect for it since then, this did not have anything to do with discovering Babylon 5, but rather with Star Trek Voyager . . . :-(

Right now, I don't have a well-developed idea of how to merge Star Trek Federation structures with a fantasy untopia, but it sounds like a worthy challenge.

And the Star Trek universe DOES have the occasional betrayal in it. The question of how you keep a utopia in a universe that hates utopias is interesting in itself.

Deep Space Nine held up a rather cracked mirror to that Utopia. The so-called "enlightened" Federation reverts very quickly to all the old evils of prejudice, xenophobia, and outright fear when faced with the threat of the shape-shifting Dominion.

And I'm not sure it wasn't that stagnant. Apparantly the crews of the U.S.S. Enterprise, Voyager, and Deep Space Nine had nothing to entertain themselves other than Holodeck programs of ancient entertainment, which suggests that at the very least, Picard's Earth is rather barren culturally, which does not speak well of the soul of it's culture.


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Aboleths crash starstone into planet?


They take the timelord idea

take the world and obliterate it, converting themselves into eternal perfect beings.


LazarX wrote:

{. . .}

Deep Space Nine held up a rather cracked mirror to that Utopia. The so-called "enlightened" Federation reverts very quickly to all the old evils of prejudice, xenophobia, and outright fear when faced with the threat of the shape-shifting Dominion.

Cracked, but not fully shattered. Some glue required, but still possible to fix.

LazarX wrote:
And I'm not sure it wasn't that stagnant. Apparantly the crews of the U.S.S. Enterprise, Voyager, and Deep Space Nine had nothing to entertain themselves other than Holodeck programs of ancient entertainment, which suggests that at the very least, Picard's Earth is rather barren culturally, which does not speak well of the soul of it's culture.

Blame the stagnation and decadency of the late 20th Century writers for the Holodeck problem, not the basic idea of Star Trek -- this just reflects the fact that mid-to-late 20th Century Earth was culturally barren. Actually, the original Star Trek series was pretty anti-holodeck, although they didn't have that term back then, even going so far as to depict the super-brained aliens of Talos IV having gone into terminal decline due to becoming entrapped in their own illusions. Don't get me wrong -- the original series also had its share of bad episodes . . . .


Psychic leeches (or poison if you want an outside factor, pollution if you want it self-inflicted) on a purely mental plane have found the super wise/intelligent demi-gods and have slowly been draining the mental attributes of the demi-gods for the past several decades. Since such mental attributes are effectively unknown on the prime material plane, and the mental plane can only interact with super mentalities on the prime material plane, not even their wisdom and intelligence could enable the demi-gods to take precautions against the infestation. While the demi-gods were all-wise and all-knowing when they set up the system, over the past decades they have become less intelligent and wise characteristics and are beginning to make mistakes. Until recently their intelligence and wisdom scores were initially so high that no one was wise or intelligent enough to be qualified to tell that the demi--gods were being drained of mental attributes, but now the wisest and most intelligent non-demi-gods are beginning to notice, and act according to their natures (the goodie-goodie ones are seeking answers/cures while the evil ones are looking for ways to secure personal advantage in the chaos they see coming). Even worse the rate of drain is increasing as time goes on and the leeches are draining greater and greater amounts of the demi-gods' mental abilities as the quality goes down.


^If you're going to go that route, while you're at it, have the psychic leeches increasing in number, and starting to go after other targets, as well as developing ways to make things like psychic zombies.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

^If you're going to go that route, while you're at it, have the psychic leeches increasing in number, and starting to go after other targets, as well as developing ways to make things like psychic zombies.

It´s a good idea, but I am trying to avoid clichés like "zombie invasion"


Brother Fen wrote:
Aboleths crash starstone into planet?

Hahaha I can hear Cinemasins in my head "Deus ex machina!"

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